about the rich man

[LaurenTM]

Hello LauenTM,



We understand from scripture that at the time of death, the spirit departs and goes immediately to be in the presence of the Lord and is conscious and aware. This garbage about the comma being in the wrong place was invented by those who believe in soul sleep and so they had to circumvent the scripture where Jesus is saying to the man "today you will be with me in paradise." Willie is just repeating this false teaching. Sleep/death is only referring to the body and not to the soul/spirit, which is very much conscious and aware. At the resurrection, the spirits of those who will have gone to be with the Lord will be reunited with their resurrected bodies. One of the truths that the rich man and Lazarus teach is that the spirit is conscious and aware after the death of the body and there there is punishment for the wicked.

Another example of conscious awareness of the soul after death is demonstrated at the opening of the 5th seal where the souls under the altar in heaven who had been killed are seen asking the Lord how long it will be before he avenges their deaths upon those on the earth, where they are then told to wait a little longer. I would suggest reading the word of God for yourself because there are many false teachings out in the world and this is one of them.

yes Hi Atwatukee (I had to keep looking at yr name for spelling LOL!)

let's not call what other people state garbage ok?

only God knows how much garbage we say and think individually and yet He still, as of this moment, has patience with each of us

I don't have a dog in this fight, I am trying to decide for myself. I have already changed my mind on so many things as life experience did not bear up with what I was taught and I have suffered for not knowing what is true

However, I do not believe anyone's salvation hinges on this particular subject

What I do know for sure, is that I wish above all else to be in my Lords' presence and to spend eternity with Him and I have assurance that each of us here most likely would very much like the same thing

I have read your post. You bring up a good point regarding the saints under the throne. I have read the entire Bible once and many portions many times. Again, this is a subject I once took for granted but I tend to take a little salt with alot of teaching these days...once burned and all that

No offence and nothing personal

Thanks

 

[garee]

I'm aware. Like I said I wanted to know what he was referring to and what part of the Bible so I could read it.. But thank you

Sorry if I did offend you .Thank you for the reply

 

[Willie-T]

As I said, you need to read the word of God and believe what it says. This false teaching of the comma being in the wrong place is a well known false teaching, which you learned and adopted. I might remind you that every major translation has the comma in the same place, which is after the word "You," as in "truly I tell you, today you will be with me in paradise." Your version focuses on Jesus telling the man what day he was giving him this information, which makes Jesus sound like He's doing Shakespeare in the park. "Truly I tell you today, you will be with me in paradise." Did Jesus really need to inform the man of what day he was giving him this information. I have dealt with other people many times regarding this same idiotic claim of the comma being in the wrong place.




This is what you are not understanding. While the body is asleep (dead), his spirit/soul is conscious and aware. This is one of the teachings within the rich man and Lazarus i.e. their spirit/souls are conscious and aware. How can you make your claim above when the spirit of the rich man is having a conversation with Abraham and Lazarus and he makes the claim that he is in torment in flame? Those spirits of believers who are currently in Christ's presence will remember everything and will then be reunited with their resurrected bodies at the time of the resurrection.

No, if you will read my post, I said the fact that none of the Ancient languages of the Bible ever used a comma had noting to do with any of this. That was just a point to remind us that neither you, nor I, nor any of the translators know if adding a comma to that verse was correct. That decision, like so many others made by translators was a "toss-up." And many things like that were decided strictly on the basis of whatever best fit their personal theological biases.

That is why you had to qualify your remark as you did, admitting that not all translations add commas and other non-existent punctuation in places that may actually alter the intent of the original text.

BTW, I kind of get a kick out of people claiming that older translations that did not have the advantage of much more history and learning in languages by means of modern techniques and tons of hitherto fore "unknown", recently discovered manuscripts and language keys, have to somehow be superior to translations made by much less biased translators today who have access to all those modern things, and utilize them.

It's like saying the medieval witch doctors knew more about medicine than doctors do today. LOL

 

[Ahwatukee]

No, if you will read my post, I said the fact that none of the Ancient languages of the Bible ever used a comma had noting to do with any of this. that was just a point to remind us that neither you, nor I, nor any of the translators know if adding a comma to that verse was correct. That decision, like so many others made by translators was a "toss-up." And many things like that were decided strictly on the basis of whatever best fit their personal theological biases.

That is why you had to qualify your remark as you did, admitting that not all translations add commas and other non-existent punctuation in places that may actually alter the intent of the original text.

BTW, I kind of get a kick out of people claiming that older translations that did not have the advantage of much more history and learning in languages by means of modern techniques and tons of hitherto fore "unknown", recently discovered manuscripts and language keys, have to somehow be superior to translations made by much less biased translators today who have access to all those modern things, and utilize them.

It's like saying the medieval witch doctors knew more about medicine than doctors do today. LOL

We are talking about the word of God here. Either it is the truth or it is false. If only some of it is true then we can't trust any of it and it makes God out to be a liar, which He cannot be. But if is all true, then what is says is what it means. Do you think that God is incapable of making sure that we have His infallible word? You're comparisons do not fit this situation.

It is true what scripture says, that in the later days people will not put up with sound doctrine, but will abandon the truth and turn aside to myths and you are one of them. And it's not just a matter of the issue, you demonstrate departure from the truth on many other Biblical topics as well.

 

[WebersHome]

-
● Acts 2:31 . . his soul was not left in hell

The Greek word for "hell" in that verse is haides (hah'-dace) which essential
means: unseen; ie: the netherworld.

Haides (a.k.a. hades) is borrowed from Greek mythology. It refers to the
afterlife situation of all the dead, both the good dead and the bad dead.

Hades is divided into sections where the souls of the dead are assigned
in accordance with the quality of their pre-death existence. The worst
section is a deep abys called Tartarus; which is utilized in the New
Testament at 2Pet 2:4.

According to Luke 23:43, the section of hades in which Christ reposed for
three days and nights is a paradise.

There's more than one paradise in the New Testament. There's one down in
the netherworld (Matt 12:40). There's another located in a celestial region
that Paul labeled the third heaven (2Cor 12:2-4). And yet another is located
in a place called the paradise of God. (Rev 2:7)

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

 

[Willie-T]

We are talking about the word of God here. Either it is the truth or it is false. If only some of it is true then we can't trust any of it and it makes God out to be a liar, which He cannot be. But if is all true, then what is says is what it means. Do you think that God is incapable of making sure that we have His infallible word? You're comparisons do not fit this situation.

It is true what scripture says, that in the later days people will not put up with sound doctrine, but will abandon the truth and turn aside to myths and you are one of them. And it's not just a matter of the issue, you demonstrate departure from the truth on many other Biblical topics as well.

Do you even know what any of the original manuscripts actually say? You have selected a translation (or two? Probably not. LOL), that the traditions of men have seized hold of, and you now call that "the word of God."

 

[Ahwatukee]

yes Hi Atwatukee (I had to keep looking at yr name for spelling LOL!)

let's not call what other people state garbage ok?

only God knows how much garbage we say and think individually and yet He still, as of this moment, has patience with each of us

I don't have a dog in this fight, I am trying to decide for myself. I have already changed my mind on so many things as life experience did not bear up with what I was taught and I have suffered for not knowing what is true

However, I do not believe anyone's salvation hinges on this particular subject

What I do know for sure, is that I wish above all else to be in my Lords' presence and to spend eternity with Him and I have assurance that each of us here most likely would very much like the same thing

I have read your post. You bring up a good point regarding the saints under the throne. I have read the entire Bible once and many portions many times. Again, this is a subject I once took for granted but I tend to take a little salt with alot of teaching these days...once burned and all that

No offence and nothing personal

Thanks

HI laurenTM,

On the contrary, I will continue to contend, correct and rebuke those with false teachings. That is one of the problems with Christianity today in that, everyone wants to be politically correct. Jesus did not hold back, but told the Pharisees and teachers of the law the truth of their error. False teachings are garbage and deceive others. Scripture states "Don't have anything to do with the fruits of darkness, rather expose them" and that is what I do when I hear them. The following prophecy has been and is currently being fulfilled:

"For the time will come when men will not tolerate sound doctrine, but with itching ears they will gather around themselves teachers to suit their own desires. So they will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths."


To put it into perspective, those teachers are seminars, books, the internet, you tube and hear-say. This is where many are getting their understanding of Scripture today.

However, I do not believe anyone's salvation hinges on this particular subject

The Biblical subject is not the problem, but it is the consistent departure from the truth that is the issue and Willie does not adhere to sound teaching, but more of a new wave, evolving type of gospel. No maam, I will continue to call those out who are false teachers and I will continue to pray for them, that God would open their eyes to see the truth of God's word and remain in it. God forbid that I should be silent about the truth, which is another big problem within the body of Christ.

 

[Willie-T]

We are talking about the word of God here. Either it is the truth or it is false. If only some of it is true then we can't trust any of it and it makes God out to be a liar, which He cannot be. But if is all true, then what is says is what it means. Do you think that God is incapable of making sure that we have His infallible word? You're comparisons do not fit this situation.

It is true what scripture says, that in the later days people will not put up with sound doctrine, but will abandon the truth and turn aside to myths and you are one of them. And it's not just a matter of the issue, you demonstrate departure from the truth on many other Biblical topics as well.

I will be the first one to declare, to the Heavens, that I have... with God's help... hopefully departed FAR FROM men's traditions on MANY Biblical topics. Thank God!

 

[Ahwatukee]

I will be the first one to declare, to the Heavens, that I have... with God's help... hopefully departed FAR FROM men's traditions on MANY Biblical topics. Thank God!

If that was true you would believe what the word of God has to say without distorting it, which you have demonstrated regarding many Biblical topics on this site. Let's see, the Lord promised that he was going to prepare a place for us in the Father's house and that he was going to come again to gather all believers and to take us back to the Father's house. But what did you say about it? You called it the rupture and escape-pod theology. Yet, the plain truth of that event is written and is easy to understand its meaning. Did you ever read "do not despise prophecy?" Well, that is exactly what you are doing when you make fun of the Lord's promises. I wish that you were far from the traditions of men, but from what you proclaim regarding scripture, it is obvious that you are far from the truth of God's word. I'm going to continue to call you on the topics that you teach here and use scripture to do it, for I have hardly found anything that you have said that resembles the truth of God's word. As I said earlier, this is not about a particular Biblical issue, but it is about continual departure from the truth.

 

[HisHolly]

Actual words are used in parables..Its how we find the spiritual understanding.

Sorry if I did offend you .Thank you for the reply

No you're fine. I was just saying that you weren't helpful bc I had a specific reason why I asked what I did..

 

[LaurenTM]

HI laurenTM,

On the contrary, I will continue to contend, correct and rebuke those with false teachings. That is one of the problems with Christianity today in that, everyone wants to be politically correct. Jesus did not hold back, but told the Pharisees and teachers of the law the truth of their error. False teachings are garbage and deceive others. Scripture states "Don't have anything to do with the fruits of darkness, rather expose them" and that is what I do when I hear them. The following prophecy has been and is currently being fulfilled:

"For the time will come when men will not tolerate sound doctrine, but with itching ears they will gather around themselves teachers to suit their own desires. So they will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths."


To put it into perspective, those teachers are seminars, books, the internet, you tube and hear-say. This is where many are getting their understanding of Scripture today.



The Biblical subject is not the problem, but it is the consistent departure from the truth that is the issue and Willie does not adhere to sound teaching, but more of a new wave, evolving type of gospel. No maam, I will continue to call those out who are false teachers and I will continue to pray for them, that God would open their eyes to see the truth of God's word and remain in it. God forbid that I should be silent about the truth, which is another big problem within the body of Christ.

well, I think what we have here is a matter of opinion

first of all, I do believe that Jesus spoke a parable regarding the op and not a historical fact

no one has convinced me of that; I see no evidence in scripture contrary to the fact

I don't believe anyone in this thread is teaching; if they are, I am unaware of it and I know teaching when I come across it

I will agree that many here imagine themselves to be teachers even though scripture cautions against wanting to even be a teacher; I think teaching must be a very direct imperative from God and a gift because God knows, we don't need another one anymore than we need another singer or healer or someone speaking in tongues with no one to interpret

I'm getting ahead of myself though

you will find me to be one of the least politically correct people on the planet but I don't express all my views here because I might find few to agree with me LOL!

On that note however, I am finding that the use of the term politically correct has in itself achieved a status rivaling what it proclaims to disavow

False teachings are garbage and deceive others

nicely put. false teachers are under the influence of deceiving spirits according to scripture and so the charge becomes even more odious

The Biblical subject is not the problem, but it is the consistent departure from the truth that is the issue and Willie does not adhere to sound teaching, but more of a new wave, evolving type of gospel. No maam, I will continue to call those out who are false teachers and I will continue to pray for them, that God would open their eyes to see the truth of God's word and remain in it. God forbid that I should be silent about the truth, which is another big problem within the body of Christ.

this is a judgement that is not made with sound judgement. take care lest you find yourself in that seat. God through Jesus, declares that we are judged according to the way we judge. God's word does not return to Him void so I can say with complete authority, that you will receive accordingly and that is not my judgement but something you appear to be desiring to experience

it is really silly, IMO, to waste time on this forum calling people false teachers for one, it is not a teaching site, 2. most people who fancy themselves a teacher here simply desire an audience that no proper church will allow them and 3. it is an internet site and therefore bereft of the opportunity to address whether or not one is outside the body of Christ

listen to me, don't listen to me...I have learned that like Christ, we as His followers, cannot expect any better than what He got

so, I bless you in Jesus Name but I do not receive your condemnation of anyone on this site. the hearts of all here are bared for God to see and with that in mind, I would take care of how I address others

nothing personal

 

[Willie-T]

If that was true you would believe what the word of God has to say without distorting it, which you have demonstrated regarding many Biblical topics on this site. Let's see, the Lord promised that he was going to prepare a place for us in the Father's house and that he was going to come again to gather all believers and to take us back to the Father's house. But what did you say about it? You called it the rupture and escape-pod theology. Yet, the plain truth of that event is written and is easy to understand its meaning. Did you ever read "do not despise prophecy?" Well, that is exactly what you are doing when you make fun of the Lord's promises. I wish that you were far from the traditions of men, but from what you proclaim regarding scripture, it is obvious that you are far from the truth of God's word. I'm going to continue to call you on the topics that you teach here and use scripture to do it, for I have hardly found anything that you have said that resembles the truth of God's word. As I said earlier, this is not about a particular Biblical issue, but it is about continual departure from the truth.

You go on, and on, and on ....... but all predicated upon a misread verse, that you saddled with a presupposition. You added to that verse. Jesus never said He was going to sneak in and snatch us out from among the populace. This is the same way you try to distort the meanings of "soon" and "this generation" in Matthew 24, in order to create justification for a secret rapture theory.

 

[HisHolly]

Wanted to point something out..

People have disqualified the story of the rich man as being an actual event. they point out that it is a parable bc it starts of with "certain man". They say that's what's done in other parables.. true..
BUT Jude starts of verse 4 the same way..He was not writing a parable but was addressing something that was actually happening.

The use of "certain man" does not automatically denote its a parable..

 

[49]

Wanted to point something out..

People have disqualified the story of the rich man as being an actual event. they point out that it is a parable bc it starts of with "certain man". They say that's what's done in other parables.. true..
BUT Jude starts of verse 4 the same way..He was not writing a parable but was addressing something that was actually happening.

The use of "certain man" does not automatically denote its a parable..

True. Have noticed several passages which include "certain".

Luke 18:18 (KJV) And a certain ruler asked him, saying, Good Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?"
For example.

 

[Willie-T]

Wanted to point something out..

People have disqualified the story of the rich man as being an actual event. they point out that it is a parable bc it starts of with "certain man". They say that's what's done in other parables.. true..
BUT Jude starts of verse 4 the same way..He was not writing a parable but was addressing something that was actually happening.

The use of "certain man" does not automatically denote its a parable..

Uh............. The dogmatically and stubbornly long-fought argument is just the opposite. The people that desperately want this to be a snapshot of Hell, claim it is a true story for the very reason that it starts out supposedly identifying a "certain" specific, real-life person.

This whole idea was first brought up by the "It's a real story" crowd.

 

[John146]

Uh............. The dogmatically and stubbornly long-fought argument is just the opposite. The people that desperately want this to be a snapshot of Hell, claim it is a true story for the very reason that it starts out supposedly identifying a "certain" specific, real-life person.

This whole idea was first brought up by the "It's a real story" crowd.

Or maybe denied by those who don't want to believe in a real hell with real fire and torment.

 

[John146]

True. Have noticed several passages which include "certain".

Luke 18:18 (KJV) And a certain ruler asked him, saying, Good Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?"
For example.

However, those certain people are never given a name.

 

[Willie-T]

Or maybe denied by those who don't want to believe in a real hell with real fire and torment.

Believing in the real certainty of punishment (which is absolutely true) has nothing to do with this parable being about something completely different than Jesus trying to describe a place called Hell.

 

[49]

However, those certain people are never given a name.

True. With that being said, in the scripture referred to (Luke18:18), Jesus was being asked a question by a certain ruler...not by a certain parable.

 

[Willie-T]

True. With that being said, in the scripture referred to (Luke18:18), Jesus was being asked a question by a certain ruler...not by a certain parable.

Can you try that again.... in words we can all understand? How does a story ask a person a question?