Can we just focus on one point?
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Paul set the example in Acts 20 that , they should work just as he did. Not to benefit themselves but to help others, Paul only ask for anything when they were on a voyage to another city ,the offering the church sent were clothing food. Not mammon. He was a tent maker did you know that Acts 18:3 they were working ??? There were times he did not even had shelter.
These are the very example Paul taught those who were going to be teachers in the Body of Christ.
Acts 20
33I coveted nobody’s silver or gold or clothing. 34You yourselves know that these hands ministered to my needs and to those being with me. 35In everything I showed you that by thus straining, it behooves us to aid those being weak, and also to remember the words of the Lord Jesus, how He Himself said, ‘It is more Blessed to give than to receive.’”
Shalom
These are the very example Paul taught those who were going to be teachers in the Body of Christ.
Acts 20
33I coveted nobody’s silver or gold or clothing. 34You yourselves know that these hands ministered to my needs and to those being with me. 35In everything I showed you that by thus straining, it behooves us to aid those being weak, and also to remember the words of the Lord Jesus, how He Himself said, ‘It is more Blessed to give than to receive.’”
Shalom
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He told that Ephesian church to learn from his example to covet no one's "stuff" but this also ignores all the other scriptures that say he had the "right to get support" from the ones he was preaching to. To make it a dogmatic stance that every leader is not to be supported by the others is ignoring the whole host of other scriptures that say otherwise.
But every one is free to believe what they want. To go around and bash leaders in the Body of Christ because they get support is not right and is in fact ungodly behavior.
But every one is free to believe what they want. To go around and bash leaders in the Body of Christ because they get support is not right and is in fact ungodly behavior.
The right to get support is for when they were going out for the Gospel.
The support was not mammon , it was people opening there house to those that were traveling for the Gospel so they can have a place to stay, food, cloth, shelter.
Not take a vacation , or go to a massage lounge, and the weak in the body of Christ, were left unattended of there needs.
Shalom
The support was not mammon , it was people opening there house to those that were traveling for the Gospel so they can have a place to stay, food, cloth, shelter.
Not take a vacation , or go to a massage lounge, and the weak in the body of Christ, were left unattended of there needs.
Shalom
Jesus went into the temple and taught.
And while He taught, people listened.
Nope. My encouragement would be that you use whatever gift(s) you have wherever you are. If you are at your church, use your gift(s) there (decently and in order as directed by God in 1 Cor 14:40). If you are not at your church, use your gift(s) and reach out to those who are hungering and thirsting after righteousness.
Whatever gift(s) you have, allow those gifts to shine with whomever you come into contact --- whether at church or away from church. I happen to believe God gifts us with many attributes which can be utilized to bless others.
Willie-T gave good counsel when he explained how the church he attends organizes its services. You might have a similar church in your area.
And the only one stopping you from starting your own home fellowship (church) is yourself. You can teach to your heart's desire, and allow others to teach as you have explained a church should function. God works in the small home fellowship in the same manner He works in the larger congregation. There is no limit on God working in a church or a small fellowship.
Plenty of verses have been provided for you to meditate upon and allow God to work in your heart to bring increase. I know God is faithful to bring increase; I am uncertain whether your heart is fertile ground in which to receive what has been shared to the end fruit is reaped.
And while He taught, people listened.
Nope. My encouragement would be that you use whatever gift(s) you have wherever you are. If you are at your church, use your gift(s) there (decently and in order as directed by God in 1 Cor 14:40). If you are not at your church, use your gift(s) and reach out to those who are hungering and thirsting after righteousness.
Whatever gift(s) you have, allow those gifts to shine with whomever you come into contact --- whether at church or away from church. I happen to believe God gifts us with many attributes which can be utilized to bless others.
Willie-T gave good counsel when he explained how the church he attends organizes its services. You might have a similar church in your area.
And the only one stopping you from starting your own home fellowship (church) is yourself. You can teach to your heart's desire, and allow others to teach as you have explained a church should function. God works in the small home fellowship in the same manner He works in the larger congregation. There is no limit on God working in a church or a small fellowship.
Plenty of verses have been provided for you to meditate upon and allow God to work in your heart to bring increase. I know God is faithful to bring increase; I am uncertain whether your heart is fertile ground in which to receive what has been shared to the end fruit is reaped.
That is improper interpretation of Acts 6.
The 12 apostles appointed 7 men of honest report to look over part of the ministry so the 12 could give [them]selves continually to prayer, and to the ministry of the word (Acts 6:3-4).
God blessed the decision and increased His Word, multiplying the number of disciples. Also please note a great company of the priests were obedient to the faith (Acts 6:7).
And please note, one of the seven men appointed was Stephen full of faith and power, did great wonders and miracles among the people. Stephen was a wonderful believer. He had no problem with the request of the 12. I will take the acquiescence of Stephen as approval of the decision, notwithstanding your objection.
The 12 apostles appointed 7 men of honest report to look over part of the ministry so the 12 could give [them]selves continually to prayer, and to the ministry of the word (Acts 6:3-4).
God blessed the decision and increased His Word, multiplying the number of disciples. Also please note a great company of the priests were obedient to the faith (Acts 6:7).
And please note, one of the seven men appointed was Stephen full of faith and power, did great wonders and miracles among the people. Stephen was a wonderful believer. He had no problem with the request of the 12. I will take the acquiescence of Stephen as approval of the decision, notwithstanding your objection.
Isn't it funny how the Lord Jesus Himself took His disciples away to rest after ministry and there were also women that gave them money for the Lord's ministry.
Mark 6:31 (NASB)
[SUP]31 [/SUP] And He *said to them, "Come away by yourselves to a secluded place and rest a while." (For there were many people coming and going, and they did not even have time to eat.)
Luke 8:3 (KJV)
[SUP]3 [/SUP] And Joanna the wife of Chuza Herod's steward, and Susanna, and many others, which ministered unto him of their substance.
Luke 12:15 has "possessions" as the same Greek word used here for "substance". These people gave the Lord and His disciples money and other things that belonged to them.
I encourage you to not be taken in by this one dimensional view of ministry and the leaders in the body of Christ. I would save all this judging of the Lord's servants to the Lord Himself.
Paul gave us all some good advice.
Romans 14:4 (NASB)
[SUP]4 [/SUP] Who are you to judge the servant of another? To his own master he stands or falls; and he will stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand.
Mark 6:31 (NASB)
[SUP]31 [/SUP] And He *said to them, "Come away by yourselves to a secluded place and rest a while." (For there were many people coming and going, and they did not even have time to eat.)
Luke 8:3 (KJV)
[SUP]3 [/SUP] And Joanna the wife of Chuza Herod's steward, and Susanna, and many others, which ministered unto him of their substance.
Luke 12:15 has "possessions" as the same Greek word used here for "substance". These people gave the Lord and His disciples money and other things that belonged to them.
I encourage you to not be taken in by this one dimensional view of ministry and the leaders in the body of Christ. I would save all this judging of the Lord's servants to the Lord Himself.
Paul gave us all some good advice.
Romans 14:4 (NASB)
[SUP]4 [/SUP] Who are you to judge the servant of another? To his own master he stands or falls; and he will stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand.
Categorically false.
Simply because there is one paid pulpit preacher, doesn't mean other teaching and ministering doesn't happen anymore. In our church, the preacher preaches a sermon, but that is a small part of the overall happening on Sunday. There are classes being taught, children being taught, group studies for single women, and our elders are all over the place, and constantly available for private discussion and prayer. And that doesn't even count all the one on one discussions and fellowship.
Is it a "perfect" assembly? Of course not... there are none that are. We are all simply believers, meeting together to worship God and encourage/teach/exhort each other.
Simply because there is one paid pulpit preacher, doesn't mean other teaching and ministering doesn't happen anymore. In our church, the preacher preaches a sermon, but that is a small part of the overall happening on Sunday. There are classes being taught, children being taught, group studies for single women, and our elders are all over the place, and constantly available for private discussion and prayer. And that doesn't even count all the one on one discussions and fellowship.
Is it a "perfect" assembly? Of course not... there are none that are. We are all simply believers, meeting together to worship God and encourage/teach/exhort each other.
P
This issue has been on my heart all week. I think I know where some of the confusion lies.
We need to break down what is happening in the church and who is attending.
There are several things going on at the same time on Sunday mornings. We as saints enter in with thanksgiving and praise (at least I hope we do) but also the door is left open for the unbeliever or the seeker if you will. This issue has not been addressed what about the seeker? The Sunday worship is a different type of assembly it allows the saints to hear the word of God and offers the seeker to hear also. I rarely have seen un believers at bible studies which in my assembly usually occurs Sunday eve and mid week. Which the saints are usually the only attendance. Open discussion and sharing go on in the teaching and study of God's word. Preaching is usually sunday morning because the attendance is different even though it maybe on a certain study it is to bring a message to the people and edify the saints. Study and teaching is to help one learn and draw closer in his or her walk.
We need to break down what is happening in the church and who is attending.
There are several things going on at the same time on Sunday mornings. We as saints enter in with thanksgiving and praise (at least I hope we do) but also the door is left open for the unbeliever or the seeker if you will. This issue has not been addressed what about the seeker? The Sunday worship is a different type of assembly it allows the saints to hear the word of God and offers the seeker to hear also. I rarely have seen un believers at bible studies which in my assembly usually occurs Sunday eve and mid week. Which the saints are usually the only attendance. Open discussion and sharing go on in the teaching and study of God's word. Preaching is usually sunday morning because the attendance is different even though it maybe on a certain study it is to bring a message to the people and edify the saints. Study and teaching is to help one learn and draw closer in his or her walk.
P
As I posted before,in another yet thread. When Jesus preached he drew a crowd. But when he taught the crowd followed him or ment him in a certain place. Usually provision for them were made by the hands of the assembly and blessed by the Lord to be sufficient. The feeding of the 5000 a good example of this.
You didn't read far enough.
vs. 35 I have showed you all things how that so laboring (as Paul does) you ought to support the weak and remember
the words of our Lord Jesus, how He said, 'It is more blessed to give than to receive'.
Todays hirelings do more receiving than giving. That's undeniable.
That line followed vs.34, ' ...by these hands have ministered unto my necessities ...'
Just one point. As to date, I have not met a modern elder that did not adorn his own name with the religious title 'pastor'. I never said they were rotten. But they are ungodly if Jesus is right by saying that wearing a title is exalting themselves, as arrogance, pride, and ego and vanity. You must admit that these attributes cannot be defined as 'godly'. Now Jesu said it in Matt. 23:12, not me. But i do happen to agree with the Son of God on the matter.
Now if Jesus did not say that in the said verse, then you are right and i'm all washed up.
vs. 35 I have showed you all things how that so laboring (as Paul does) you ought to support the weak and remember
the words of our Lord Jesus, how He said, 'It is more blessed to give than to receive'.
Todays hirelings do more receiving than giving. That's undeniable.
That line followed vs.34, ' ...by these hands have ministered unto my necessities ...'
Just one point. As to date, I have not met a modern elder that did not adorn his own name with the religious title 'pastor'. I never said they were rotten. But they are ungodly if Jesus is right by saying that wearing a title is exalting themselves, as arrogance, pride, and ego and vanity. You must admit that these attributes cannot be defined as 'godly'. Now Jesu said it in Matt. 23:12, not me. But i do happen to agree with the Son of God on the matter.
Now if Jesus did not say that in the said verse, then you are right and i'm all washed up.
R
In old times sinners went to church, however, today they do not as most Christians do not. Then the Cross (which is the gospel) is not presented but some form of psychology. The modern church has lost it's magnet and has become nothing more than a social club, having a form of godliness but denying the power thereof. A party if you will with a little Jesus thrown in. If you have a problem, you are referred to a psychologist or a therapist. No Power from God. Amen
I did read far enough and I have read other scriptures too.
To extrapolate to say that Paul told all of them to get jobs is violating the other scriptures that talk about "having the right to obtain support from those that are being preached to". You are taking an instance where Paul led by example in this case to help the weak and making it a dogmatic doctrine - which doesn't stand up with the other scriptural references.
Not only that but unfortunately you are making it "your ministry" to try to make others see your dogmatic doctrine as truth for all circumstances.
Again you are doing nothing but maligning good hearted loving leaders in the body of Christ because you are painting them all with the same brush and calling them hirelings. You can try to "justify" your malice all you want but to put all leaders in the same boat is just plain spiritual ignorance and very unwise and damaging to your brothers and sisters in the Lord.
That is what is really ungodly and Jesus in Matt 23:12 says that those that exalt themselves shall be humbled which is good advice for all of us no matter what our part is in the body of Christ.
To extrapolate to say that Paul told all of them to get jobs is violating the other scriptures that talk about "having the right to obtain support from those that are being preached to". You are taking an instance where Paul led by example in this case to help the weak and making it a dogmatic doctrine - which doesn't stand up with the other scriptural references.
Not only that but unfortunately you are making it "your ministry" to try to make others see your dogmatic doctrine as truth for all circumstances.
Again you are doing nothing but maligning good hearted loving leaders in the body of Christ because you are painting them all with the same brush and calling them hirelings. You can try to "justify" your malice all you want but to put all leaders in the same boat is just plain spiritual ignorance and very unwise and damaging to your brothers and sisters in the Lord.
That is what is really ungodly and Jesus in Matt 23:12 says that those that exalt themselves shall be humbled which is good advice for all of us no matter what our part is in the body of Christ.
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Thats good. I agree. Preaching was witnessing. A herald. Proclaiming. In the assembly we have teaching.
I'm inclined to think that 'teaching' would have been the proper translation of 'preaching' in Acts20:9.
Now back to the local assembly. Please explain 1Cor. 12, Romans12, And Ephesians 4. Wheres the sermonizing exect?
Well maybe Strongs Concordance is complete nonsense as you suggest. Now what am i twisting?
I'm inclined to think that 'teaching' would have been the proper translation of 'preaching' in Acts20:9.
Now back to the local assembly. Please explain 1Cor. 12, Romans12, And Ephesians 4. Wheres the sermonizing exect?
Well maybe Strongs Concordance is complete nonsense as you suggest. Now what am i twisting?
The religious leaders did not By the message of Jesus. Finally he went in with a whip.
You are not listening. The average church building will not allow for the ministries of the folks. Are you saying i should iterrupt the 'sacred service' and push my ministry on to them? I'd be cast out of the sin-agogue' in short order.
You are not listening. The average church building will not allow for the ministries of the folks. Are you saying i should iterrupt the 'sacred service' and push my ministry on to them? I'd be cast out of the sin-agogue' in short order.