Can the Trinity be Biblically proven?
- Thread starter bluto
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Are not the souls in heaven persons too?
Revelation 6:
[9] And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
[10] And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
Revelation 6:
[9] And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
[10] And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
So rba, did you read the very fist verse of 1 Corinthains 12:1? The subject/context is about the adminstration of spiritual gifts which has nothing to do with the so-called adminstration of God being one. Of course there is one God who in the Bible is clearly identified as three distinct persons. Tell me this, if God is not three distinct persons then please identify (and you can use any word you want) but I will use persons at Luke 1:11, "and a voice came out of the heavens; Thou art My beloved Son, in Thee I am well-pleased." How would you describe God the Father in this verse and His Son Jesus Christ? If they are not persons then what are they? 
IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
Why do you keep up your arguing when you are doing so from a completely empty wagon, bluto. My post #223 refutes the Trinity. When you provide Scriptural evidence proving any of it is false, you have something to argue about. Nothing you post has any effect whatever until you do.
Review the following: The Origin of the Trinity: From Paganism to Constantine
Here is why quasar. The following is what you said to me:
"What are your questions you think I have not answered? I'm going to show you where they have been! Capiche?
Quasar92
Here are the following questions?
So quasar, if the Son is not co-equal or co-eternal with His Father then please explain John 5:17,18, "But He/Jesus answered them, My Father is working until now, and I Myself am working." Vs18, For this cause therefore the Jews were seeking all the more to kill Him, because he not only was breaking the Sabbath, but also was calling GOD HIS OWN FATHER, MAKING HIMSELF EQUAL WITH GOD."
And regarding you statement, "God makes it clear in the OT He is eternal, that there is no other God but He Himself." Ok fine, then explain Micah 5:2, "But as for you , Bethlehem Ephrathah, Too little to be among the clans of Judah, FROM YOU ONE WILL GO FORTH FOR ME TO BE RULER IN ISRAEL; HIS GOINGS FORTH ARE FROM LONG AGO, FROM THE DAYS OF ETERNITY." Who's goings forth are from the days of eternity in this verse quasar? What if I told you that His goings forth have also been in the OT?
You also quoted Isaiah 43:10, but what about vs11? "I, even I, and the Lord, AND THERE IS NO SAVIOR BESIDES ME." If your going to follow strict rules of interpretation then you should take it to its logical conclusion. God says there is no Savior besides Him but yet Luke 2:11 says, "for today in the city of David there HAS BEEN BORN FOR YOU A SAVIOR, WHO IS CHIRST THE LORD."
You then brought up Isaiah 44:6 where it says, "I am the first and the last, And there is no God besides Me." Who is the first and last at Revelation 1:17,18? "And when I say Him, I fell at His feet as a dead man. And He laid His right hand on me, saying, Do not be afraid; I am the first and the last, vs18, and the living One; and I was dead, and behold I am alive forevermore, and I have the keys of death and of Hades."
Revelation 1:7,8, "Behold He is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see Him, even those who pierced Him; and all the tribes of the earth will mourn over Him. Even so, Amen. Now look at vs8, "I am the Alpha and the Omega, says the Lord God, who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty." Who is this quasar? Which person was dead and is alive, the first and the last and the one that is coming? Is it Jesus Christ or God the Father?
It's hard to string a bunch of verses together to prove a point but it's a different story to tie them together or reconcile them so they are in harmony with each other. I'm just trying to help and I'm not trying to make you look foolish. Even at your age you should at least be flexable and keep an open mind, in short no one is to old to learn."
And btw, these questions are based on many of the verses you posted which as I said, I have read your post. Just take them one at a time. I don't want to overwhelm you.
Quasar92
Review the following: The Origin of the Trinity: From Paganism to Constantine
Here is why quasar. The following is what you said to me:
"What are your questions you think I have not answered? I'm going to show you where they have been! Capiche?
Quasar92
Here are the following questions?
So quasar, if the Son is not co-equal or co-eternal with His Father then please explain John 5:17,18, "But He/Jesus answered them, My Father is working until now, and I Myself am working." Vs18, For this cause therefore the Jews were seeking all the more to kill Him, because he not only was breaking the Sabbath, but also was calling GOD HIS OWN FATHER, MAKING HIMSELF EQUAL WITH GOD."
And regarding you statement, "God makes it clear in the OT He is eternal, that there is no other God but He Himself." Ok fine, then explain Micah 5:2, "But as for you , Bethlehem Ephrathah, Too little to be among the clans of Judah, FROM YOU ONE WILL GO FORTH FOR ME TO BE RULER IN ISRAEL; HIS GOINGS FORTH ARE FROM LONG AGO, FROM THE DAYS OF ETERNITY." Who's goings forth are from the days of eternity in this verse quasar? What if I told you that His goings forth have also been in the OT?
You also quoted Isaiah 43:10, but what about vs11? "I, even I, and the Lord, AND THERE IS NO SAVIOR BESIDES ME." If your going to follow strict rules of interpretation then you should take it to its logical conclusion. God says there is no Savior besides Him but yet Luke 2:11 says, "for today in the city of David there HAS BEEN BORN FOR YOU A SAVIOR, WHO IS CHIRST THE LORD."
You then brought up Isaiah 44:6 where it says, "I am the first and the last, And there is no God besides Me." Who is the first and last at Revelation 1:17,18? "And when I say Him, I fell at His feet as a dead man. And He laid His right hand on me, saying, Do not be afraid; I am the first and the last, vs18, and the living One; and I was dead, and behold I am alive forevermore, and I have the keys of death and of Hades."
Revelation 1:7,8, "Behold He is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see Him, even those who pierced Him; and all the tribes of the earth will mourn over Him. Even so, Amen. Now look at vs8, "I am the Alpha and the Omega, says the Lord God, who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty." Who is this quasar? Which person was dead and is alive, the first and the last and the one that is coming? Is it Jesus Christ or God the Father?
It's hard to string a bunch of verses together to prove a point but it's a different story to tie them together or reconcile them so they are in harmony with each other. I'm just trying to help and I'm not trying to make you look foolish. Even at your age you should at least be flexable and keep an open mind, in short no one is to old to learn.
"And btw, these questions are based on many of the verses you posted which as I said, I have read your post. Just take them one at a time. I don't want to overwhelm you.
Quasar92
bluto
Absolutely! There is no such thing as a Triune God. The doctrine of the Trinity was politically motivated by Constantine in the 4th century and cannon balled into the Church annals in the 5th century. It is not taught in the Bible or by either Jesus or His disciples.
Review the following as an exampe:
Dirty Politics And The Doctrine Of The Trinity - Pinned General Christian Theological Issues - Ex-Christian.Net
Quasar92
Look rba, first of all the verses at John 14 do not mean that Jesus Christ is God the Father like the oneness pentecostal cult teaches. God the Father has no separate manifestation from the Son. The Son is the ONLY manifestation and revealation of the Father. What is known of the FAther is revealed through the Son. To see the Son is to see the ESSENCE of the Father.
For example John 1:18, "No man has seen God at any time, the only begotten God, who is in the bosom of the Father, he has explained Him." At vs16 the fulness of God coulnd not be known through any ordinary man. It must come through the One who possesses the nature og God. The statement that "No man has seen God at any time" is not referring to the impossibility of a vision of God or a "theophany/Christophany? but rather to His qualities.
God's nature cammpt be seen or held and revealed to others by any ordinay man. The utter inability of "no man" is stressed in opposition to God who revelaed Himself in the one and Only Begotten God/Son. (John 1:18). And like I said about the trinity, it is not an "assumption" that someone dreamed/made up at the council of Nicea (325ad). It is the normative systematic theology of God in Christianity and is BASEd on the fact that the Bible is explicit in telling us that there is, was and forever will beo only ONE GOD and the fact that the Bible IDENTIFIES three (and only three) persons of God.
IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
For example John 1:18, "No man has seen God at any time, the only begotten God, who is in the bosom of the Father, he has explained Him." At vs16 the fulness of God coulnd not be known through any ordinary man. It must come through the One who possesses the nature og God. The statement that "No man has seen God at any time" is not referring to the impossibility of a vision of God or a "theophany/Christophany? but rather to His qualities.
God's nature cammpt be seen or held and revealed to others by any ordinay man. The utter inability of "no man" is stressed in opposition to God who revelaed Himself in the one and Only Begotten God/Son. (John 1:18). And like I said about the trinity, it is not an "assumption" that someone dreamed/made up at the council of Nicea (325ad). It is the normative systematic theology of God in Christianity and is BASEd on the fact that the Bible is explicit in telling us that there is, was and forever will beo only ONE GOD and the fact that the Bible IDENTIFIES three (and only three) persons of God.
IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
Part 1 of 2:
End of part 1 of 2. Part 2 follows:
Quasar92
IN GOD THE SON,
Here are the following questions?
So quasar, if the Son is not co-equal or co-eternal with His Father then please explain John 5:17,18, "But He/Jesus answered them, My Father is working until now, and I Myself am working." Vs18, For this cause therefore the Jews were seeking all the more to kill Him, because he not only was breaking the Sabbath, but also was calling GOD HIS OWN FATHER, MAKING HIMSELF EQUAL WITH GOD."
And regarding you statement, "God makes it clear in the OT He is eternal, that there is no other God but He Himself." Ok fine, then explain Micah 5:2, "But as for you , Bethlehem Ephrathah, Too little to be among the clans of Judah, FROM YOU ONE WILL GO FORTH FOR ME TO BE RULER IN ISRAEL; HIS GOINGS FORTH ARE FROM LONG AGO, FROM THE DAYS OF ETERNITY." Who's goings forth are from the days of eternity in this verse quasar? What if I told you that His goings forth have also been in the OT?
You also quoted Isaiah 43:10, but what about vs11? "I, even I, and the Lord, AND THERE IS NO SAVIOR BESIDES ME." If your going to follow strict rules of interpretation then you should take it to its logical conclusion. God says there is no Savior besides Him but yet Luke 2:11 says, "for today in the city of David there HAS BEEN BORN FOR YOU A SAVIOR, WHO IS CHIRST THE LORD."
You then brought up Isaiah 44:6 where it says, "I am the first and the last, And there is no God besides Me." Who is the first and last at Revelation 1:17,18? "And when I say Him, I fell at His feet as a dead man. And He laid His right hand on me, saying, Do not be afraid; I am the first and the last, vs18, and the living One; and I was dead, and behold I am alive forevermore, and I have the keys of death and of Hades."
Revelation 1:7,8, "Behold He is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see Him, even those who pierced Him; and all the tribes of the earth will mourn over Him. Even so, Amen. Now look at vs8, "I am the Alpha and the Omega, says the Lord God, who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty." Who is this quasar? Which person was dead and is alive, the first and the last and the one that is coming? Is it Jesus Christ or God the Father?
It's hard to string a bunch of verses together to prove a point but it's a different story to tie them together or reconcile them so they are in harmony with each other. I'm just trying to help and I'm not trying to make you look foolish. Even at your age you should at least be flexable and keep an open mind, in short no one is to old to learn."
And btw, these questions are based on many of the verses you posted which as I said, I have read your post. Just take them one at a time. I don't want to overwhelm you.
bluto
Here are the following questions?
So quasar, if the Son is not co-equal or co-eternal with His Father then please explain John 5:17,18, "But He/Jesus answered them, My Father is working until now, and I Myself am working." Vs18, For this cause therefore the Jews were seeking all the more to kill Him, because he not only was breaking the Sabbath, but also was calling GOD HIS OWN FATHER, MAKING HIMSELF EQUAL WITH GOD."
And regarding you statement, "God makes it clear in the OT He is eternal, that there is no other God but He Himself." Ok fine, then explain Micah 5:2, "But as for you , Bethlehem Ephrathah, Too little to be among the clans of Judah, FROM YOU ONE WILL GO FORTH FOR ME TO BE RULER IN ISRAEL; HIS GOINGS FORTH ARE FROM LONG AGO, FROM THE DAYS OF ETERNITY." Who's goings forth are from the days of eternity in this verse quasar? What if I told you that His goings forth have also been in the OT?
You also quoted Isaiah 43:10, but what about vs11? "I, even I, and the Lord, AND THERE IS NO SAVIOR BESIDES ME." If your going to follow strict rules of interpretation then you should take it to its logical conclusion. God says there is no Savior besides Him but yet Luke 2:11 says, "for today in the city of David there HAS BEEN BORN FOR YOU A SAVIOR, WHO IS CHIRST THE LORD."
You then brought up Isaiah 44:6 where it says, "I am the first and the last, And there is no God besides Me." Who is the first and last at Revelation 1:17,18? "And when I say Him, I fell at His feet as a dead man. And He laid His right hand on me, saying, Do not be afraid; I am the first and the last, vs18, and the living One; and I was dead, and behold I am alive forevermore, and I have the keys of death and of Hades."
Revelation 1:7,8, "Behold He is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see Him, even those who pierced Him; and all the tribes of the earth will mourn over Him. Even so, Amen. Now look at vs8, "I am the Alpha and the Omega, says the Lord God, who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty." Who is this quasar? Which person was dead and is alive, the first and the last and the one that is coming? Is it Jesus Christ or God the Father?
It's hard to string a bunch of verses together to prove a point but it's a different story to tie them together or reconcile them so they are in harmony with each other. I'm just trying to help and I'm not trying to make you look foolish. Even at your age you should at least be flexable and keep an open mind, in short no one is to old to learn.
"And btw, these questions are based on many of the verses you posted which as I said, I have read your post. Just take them one at a time. I don't want to overwhelm you.
bluto
End of part 1 of 2. Part 2 follows:
Quasar92
Part 2 of 2.
Here are the following questions?
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[FONT=wf_segoe-ui_normal][/FONT][FONT=wf_segoe-ui_normal][/FONT][FONT=wf_segoe-ui_normal][/FONT][FONT=wf_segoe-ui_normal][/FONT]God told Moses the following:
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[FONT=wf_segoe-ui_normal][/FONT][FONT=wf_segoe-ui_normal][/FONT][FONT="]1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.[FONT="] [/FONT][/FONT]
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[FONT=wf_segoe-ui_normal][/FONT][FONT=wf_segoe-ui_normal][/FONT][FONT="][The gap between Genesis 1 and 2 has bee scientifically found to be 13.5 billion years].[/FONT]
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[FONT=wf_segoe-ui_normal][/FONT][FONT=wf_segoe-ui_normal][/FONT][FONT="][FONT="]2 Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the water"[/FONT]
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[FONT=wf_segoe-ui_normal][/FONT][FONT=wf_segoe-ui_normal][/FONT]This is what Jesus said re your remark pertaining to being co-eternal and co-equal:
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[FONT=wf_segoe-ui_normal][/FONT][FONT=wf_segoe-ui_normal][/FONT]"28 [FONT="]“You heard me say, ‘I am going away and I am coming back to you.’[FONT="][/FONT][FONT="] If you loved me, you would be glad that I am going to the Father,[/FONT][FONT="][/FONT][FONT="] for the Father is greater than I." Jn.14:28 NIV[/FONT][/FONT]
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[FONT=wf_segoe-ui_normal][/FONT][FONT=wf_segoe-ui_normal][/FONT][FONT="]" Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent." Jn.17:3 NIV[/FONT]
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[FONT=wf_segoe-ui_normal][/FONT][FONT=wf_segoe-ui_normal][/FONT][FONT="]Paul wrote the following:[/FONT]
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[FONT=wf_segoe-ui_normal][/FONT][FONT=wf_segoe-ui_normal][/FONT][FONT="]" The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation." Col.1:15. Confirming Pr.8:22-25.[/FONT]
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[FONT=wf_segoe-ui_normal][/FONT][FONT=wf_segoe-ui_normal][/FONT][FONT="]Solomon wrote the following:[/FONT]
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[FONT=wf_segoe-ui_normal][/FONT][FONT=wf_segoe-ui_normal][/FONT][FONT="]“The Lord brought me forth as the first of his works,
before his deeds of old;
23 I was formed long ages ago,
at the very beginning, when the world came to be.
24 When there were no watery depths, I was given birth,
when there were no springs overflowing with water;
25 before the mountains were settled in place,
before the hills, I was given birth," Proverbs 8:22-25 NIV
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[FONT=wf_segoe-ui_normal][/FONT][FONT=wf_segoe-ui_normal][/FONT][FONT="]God created the universe by the pre-incarnate person who later became Jesus. Who is, by the Scriptures, neither co-eternal nor co-equal to God, the Holy Spirit and Father.[/FONT]
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[FONT=wf_segoe-ui_normal][/FONT][FONT=wf_segoe-ui_normal][/FONT][FONT="]Heb.1:1 In the past God spoke to our ancestors through the prophets at many times and in various ways, 2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom also he made the universe.
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[FONT=wf_segoe-ui_normal][/FONT][FONT=wf_segoe-ui_normal][/FONT][FONT="]Jesus becomes the Son of God/God the Son:[/FONT]
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[FONT=wf_segoe-ui_normal][/FONT][FONT=wf_segoe-ui_normal][/FONT][FONT="]"But after he had considered this, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream and said, 'Joseph son of David, do not be afraid to take Mary home as your wife, because what is conceived in her is from the Holy Spirit'" Mt.120 NIV[/FONT]
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[FONT=wf_segoe-ui_normal][/FONT][FONT=wf_segoe-ui_normal][/FONT][FONT="][FONT="]"The angel answered, “The Holy Spirit will come on you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you. So the holy one to be born will be called[FONT="]
[FONT="] the Son of God." Lk.1:35 NIV[/FONT].[/FONT][/FONT][/FONT]
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[FONT=wf_segoe-ui_normal][/FONT][FONT=wf_segoe-ui_normal][/FONT][FONT=wf_segoe-ui_normal]It is God, the Holy Spirit and Father, who brought forth the pre-incarnate person, who was the FIRSTBORN over all creation, who later became the human Jesus to be our Savior, as the Scriptures clearly document, previously addressed above. Knowing the end from the beginning, Indeed, the pre-incarnate person who later became the human Jesus lived from pasr eternity. But He did not ive from ALL PAST eternity as Almighty God, YHWH.[/FONT]
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[FONT=wf_segoe-ui_normal][/FONT][FONT=wf_segoe-ui_normal][/FONT][FONT=wf_segoe-ui_normal][FONT="]God makes it clear in the OT, He is eternal, that there is no other God but He Himself. "....Before me no God was formed, nor will there be one after me." Isa.43:10. And in Isa.44:6, "....I am the first and I am the last; apart from me there is no God." See also Isa.45:5: "I am the Lord and there is no other," and in Ex.3:14: "I AM WHO I AM."[/FONT][/FONT]
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[FONT=wf_segoe-ui_normal][/FONT][FONT=wf_segoe-ui_normal][/FONT][FONT=wf_segoe-ui_normal][/FONT][FONT=wf_segoe-ui_normal][/FONT][FONT=wf_segoe-ui_normal][FONT=Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif]Isa 46:9 remember the former things of old; for I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is none like me,
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[FONT=wf_segoe-ui_normal][/FONT][FONT=wf_segoe-ui_normal][/FONT][FONT=wf_segoe-ui_normal][FONT=Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif]10 declaring the end from the beginning and from ancient times things not yet done, saying, 'My counsel shall stand, and I will accomplish all my purpose[/FONT][/FONT]
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[FONT=wf_segoe-ui_normal][/FONT][FONT=wf_segoe-ui_normal][/FONT][FONT=wf_segoe-ui_normal][FONT=Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif]Jesus did nothing on His own:[/FONT][/FONT]
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[FONT=wf_segoe-ui_normal][/FONT][FONT=wf_segoe-ui_normal][/FONT][FONT=wf_segoe-ui_normal][FONT=Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif]"So Jesus said, "When you have lifted up the Son of Man, then you will know that I am he and that I do nothing on my own but speak just what the Father has taught me." Jn.8:28 NIV[/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=wf_segoe-ui_normal][/FONT][FONT=wf_segoe-ui_normal][/FONT][FONT=wf_segoe-ui_normal][FONT=Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif]
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[FONT=wf_segoe-ui_normal][/FONT][FONT=wf_segoe-ui_normal][/FONT][FONT=wf_segoe-ui_normal][FONT=Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif]God, who is the Holy Spirit and Father was living within Jesus, doing His work:[/FONT][/FONT]
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[FONT=wf_segoe-ui_normal][/FONT][FONT=wf_segoe-ui_normal][/FONT][FONT=wf_segoe-ui_normal][FONT=Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif]Jm.14:10 "[FONT="]Don’t you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me?[FONT="][/FONT][FONT="]The words I say to you I do not speak on my own authority.[/FONT][FONT="][/FONT][FONT="] Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work."[/FONT]
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[FONT=wf_segoe-ui_normal]Yes, as addressed previously, Jesus is the Alpha and the Omega and first and the last from being the FIRSTBORN over all creation, recorded in Col.1:15.[/FONT]
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[FONT=wf_segoe-ui_normal]Previously addressed above.[/FONT]
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Here are the following questions?
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[FONT=wf_segoe-ui_normal][/FONT][FONT=wf_segoe-ui_normal][/FONT][FONT=wf_segoe-ui_normal][/FONT][FONT=wf_segoe-ui_normal][/FONT]God told Moses the following:
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[FONT=wf_segoe-ui_normal][/FONT][FONT=wf_segoe-ui_normal][/FONT][FONT="]1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.[FONT="] [/FONT][/FONT]
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[FONT=wf_segoe-ui_normal][/FONT][FONT=wf_segoe-ui_normal][/FONT][FONT="][The gap between Genesis 1 and 2 has bee scientifically found to be 13.5 billion years].[/FONT]
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[FONT=wf_segoe-ui_normal][/FONT][FONT=wf_segoe-ui_normal][/FONT][FONT="][FONT="]2 Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the water"[/FONT]
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[FONT=wf_segoe-ui_normal][/FONT][FONT=wf_segoe-ui_normal][/FONT]This is what Jesus said re your remark pertaining to being co-eternal and co-equal:
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[FONT=wf_segoe-ui_normal][/FONT][FONT=wf_segoe-ui_normal][/FONT]"28 [FONT="]“You heard me say, ‘I am going away and I am coming back to you.’[FONT="][/FONT][FONT="] If you loved me, you would be glad that I am going to the Father,[/FONT][FONT="][/FONT][FONT="] for the Father is greater than I." Jn.14:28 NIV[/FONT][/FONT]
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[FONT=wf_segoe-ui_normal][/FONT][FONT=wf_segoe-ui_normal][/FONT][FONT="]" Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent." Jn.17:3 NIV[/FONT]
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[FONT=wf_segoe-ui_normal][/FONT][FONT=wf_segoe-ui_normal][/FONT][FONT="]Paul wrote the following:[/FONT]
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[FONT=wf_segoe-ui_normal][/FONT][FONT=wf_segoe-ui_normal][/FONT][FONT="]" The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation." Col.1:15. Confirming Pr.8:22-25.[/FONT]
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[FONT=wf_segoe-ui_normal][/FONT][FONT=wf_segoe-ui_normal][/FONT][FONT="]Solomon wrote the following:[/FONT]
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[FONT=wf_segoe-ui_normal][/FONT][FONT=wf_segoe-ui_normal][/FONT][FONT="]“The Lord brought me forth as the first of his works,
before his deeds of old;
23 I was formed long ages ago,
at the very beginning, when the world came to be.
24 When there were no watery depths, I was given birth,
when there were no springs overflowing with water;
25 before the mountains were settled in place,
before the hills, I was given birth," Proverbs 8:22-25 NIV
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[FONT=wf_segoe-ui_normal][/FONT][FONT=wf_segoe-ui_normal][/FONT][FONT="]God created the universe by the pre-incarnate person who later became Jesus. Who is, by the Scriptures, neither co-eternal nor co-equal to God, the Holy Spirit and Father.[/FONT]
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[FONT=wf_segoe-ui_normal][/FONT][FONT=wf_segoe-ui_normal][/FONT][FONT="]Heb.1:1 In the past God spoke to our ancestors through the prophets at many times and in various ways, 2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom also he made the universe.
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[FONT=wf_segoe-ui_normal][/FONT][FONT=wf_segoe-ui_normal][/FONT][FONT="]Jesus becomes the Son of God/God the Son:[/FONT]
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[FONT=wf_segoe-ui_normal][/FONT][FONT=wf_segoe-ui_normal][/FONT][FONT="]"But after he had considered this, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream and said, 'Joseph son of David, do not be afraid to take Mary home as your wife, because what is conceived in her is from the Holy Spirit'" Mt.120 NIV[/FONT]
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[FONT=wf_segoe-ui_normal][/FONT][FONT=wf_segoe-ui_normal][/FONT][FONT="][FONT="]"The angel answered, “The Holy Spirit will come on you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you. So the holy one to be born will be called[FONT="]
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[FONT=wf_segoe-ui_normal][/FONT][FONT=wf_segoe-ui_normal][/FONT][FONT=wf_segoe-ui_normal]It is God, the Holy Spirit and Father, who brought forth the pre-incarnate person, who was the FIRSTBORN over all creation, who later became the human Jesus to be our Savior, as the Scriptures clearly document, previously addressed above. Knowing the end from the beginning, Indeed, the pre-incarnate person who later became the human Jesus lived from pasr eternity. But He did not ive from ALL PAST eternity as Almighty God, YHWH.[/FONT]
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[FONT=wf_segoe-ui_normal][/FONT][FONT=wf_segoe-ui_normal][/FONT][FONT=wf_segoe-ui_normal][FONT="]God makes it clear in the OT, He is eternal, that there is no other God but He Himself. "....Before me no God was formed, nor will there be one after me." Isa.43:10. And in Isa.44:6, "....I am the first and I am the last; apart from me there is no God." See also Isa.45:5: "I am the Lord and there is no other," and in Ex.3:14: "I AM WHO I AM."[/FONT][/FONT]
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[FONT=wf_segoe-ui_normal][/FONT][FONT=wf_segoe-ui_normal][/FONT][FONT=wf_segoe-ui_normal][/FONT][FONT=wf_segoe-ui_normal][/FONT][FONT=wf_segoe-ui_normal][FONT=Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif]Isa 46:9 remember the former things of old; for I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is none like me,
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[FONT=wf_segoe-ui_normal][/FONT][FONT=wf_segoe-ui_normal][/FONT][FONT=wf_segoe-ui_normal][FONT=Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif]10 declaring the end from the beginning and from ancient times things not yet done, saying, 'My counsel shall stand, and I will accomplish all my purpose[/FONT][/FONT]
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[FONT=wf_segoe-ui_normal][/FONT][FONT=wf_segoe-ui_normal][/FONT][FONT=wf_segoe-ui_normal][FONT=Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif]Jesus did nothing on His own:[/FONT][/FONT]
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[FONT=wf_segoe-ui_normal][/FONT][FONT=wf_segoe-ui_normal][/FONT][FONT=wf_segoe-ui_normal][FONT=Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif]"So Jesus said, "When you have lifted up the Son of Man, then you will know that I am he and that I do nothing on my own but speak just what the Father has taught me." Jn.8:28 NIV[/FONT][/FONT]
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[FONT=wf_segoe-ui_normal][/FONT][FONT=wf_segoe-ui_normal][/FONT][FONT=wf_segoe-ui_normal][FONT=Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif]God, who is the Holy Spirit and Father was living within Jesus, doing His work:[/FONT][/FONT]
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[FONT=wf_segoe-ui_normal][/FONT][FONT=wf_segoe-ui_normal][/FONT][FONT=wf_segoe-ui_normal][FONT=Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif]Jm.14:10 "[FONT="]Don’t you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me?[FONT="][/FONT][FONT="]The words I say to you I do not speak on my own authority.[/FONT][FONT="][/FONT][FONT="] Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work."[/FONT]
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[FONT=wf_segoe-ui_normal]Yes, as addressed previously, Jesus is the Alpha and the Omega and first and the last from being the FIRSTBORN over all creation, recorded in Col.1:15.[/FONT]
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[FONT=wf_segoe-ui_normal]Previously addressed above.[/FONT]
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Part 2 of 2: [Finish]
[FONT=wf_segoe-ui_normal]It's hard to string a bunch of verses together to prove a point but it's a different story to tie them together or reconcile them so they are in harmony with each other. I'm just trying to help and I'm not trying to make you look foolish. Even at your age you should at least be flexable and keep an open mind, in short no one is to old to learn. "
And btw, these questions are based on many of the verses you posted which as I said, I have read your post. Just take them one at a time. I don't want to overwhelm you.[/FONT]
"And btw, these questions are based on many of the verses you posted which as I said, I have read your post. Just take them one at a time. I don't want to overwhelm you.
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[/FONT][FONT=wf_segoe-ui_normal]If you don't want to pay any attention to the Scriptures that refute your views, bluto, there is no point in my interfacing with you at all, is there. And where may I ask did you obtain your qualifications to teach the Bible?
Quasar92[/FONT]
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Ok quasar, I'm only going to deal with your statement here for now and will return later to address the rest of your post. You said, "God created the universe by the pre-incarnate person who later became Jesus. Who is, by the Scriptures, neither co-eternal nor co-equal to God, the Holy Spirit and Father."
What was this persons name who God created the universe by and later became Jesus? Secondly, I saw in one your post where you quoted Isaiah 44:24, "Thus says the Lord, your Redeemer, and the one who formed you from the womb, I, THE LORD AM THE MAKER OF ALL THINGS, STRETCHING OUT THE HEAVENS BY MYSELF, AND SPREADING OUT THE EARTH ALL ALONE." So please reconcile this unknown person (according to you before the incarnation of Jesus Christ) with God saying He created everything by Himself and alone without any help from anybody? PS: Like I said, I'll be back!
IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
What was this persons name who God created the universe by and later became Jesus? Secondly, I saw in one your post where you quoted Isaiah 44:24, "Thus says the Lord, your Redeemer, and the one who formed you from the womb, I, THE LORD AM THE MAKER OF ALL THINGS, STRETCHING OUT THE HEAVENS BY MYSELF, AND SPREADING OUT THE EARTH ALL ALONE." So please reconcile this unknown person (according to you before the incarnation of Jesus Christ) with God saying He created everything by Himself and alone without any help from anybody?
PS: Like I said, I'll be back!IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
The following quasar is what I said first and then your answer.
And regarding you statement, "God makes it clear in the OT He is eternal, that there is no other God but He Himself." Ok fine, then explain Micah 5:2, "But as for you , Bethlehem Ephrathah, Too little to be among the clans of Judah, FROM YOU ONE WILL GO FORTH FOR ME TO BE RULER IN ISRAEL; HIS GOINGS FORTH ARE FROM LONG AGO, FROM THE DAYS OF ETERNITY." Who's goings forth are from the days of eternity in this verse quasar? What if I told you that His goings forth have also been in the OT?
[FONT=wf_segoe-ui_normal]You also quoted Isaiah 43:10, but what about vs11? "I, even I, and the Lord, AND THERE IS NO SAVIOR BESIDES ME." If your going to follow strict rules of interpretation then you should take it to its logical conclusion. God says there is no Savior besides Him but yet Luke 2:11 says, "for today in the city of David there HAS BEEN BORN FOR YOU A SAVIOR, WHO IS CHIRST THE LORD."[/FONT]
[FONT=wf_segoe-ui_normal]"It is God, the Holy Spirit and Father, who brought forth the pre-incarnate person, who was the FIRSTBORN over all creation, who later became the human Jesus to be our Savior, as the Scriptures clearly document, previously addressed above. Knowing the end from the beginning, Indeed, the pre-incarnate person who later became the human Jesus lived from pasr eternity. But He did not ive from ALL PAST eternity as Almighty God, YHWH."
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No quasar, you did not address the specific verse I gave with was Micah 5:2. What does it mean that the goings forth of the Messiah/Jesus Christ reach back into eternity? Again, this is before His incarnation and yet you deny He did not preexist His incarnation? Are you aware that Micah 5:2 presupposes Isaiah 9:6 where Jesus Chrsit the Messiah is identified as the "Mighty God?" Did you not recognize from Isaiah 9:6 that a son will be given to us? Not created, but given. Are you also not aware that His name will also be "Eternal Father?" This means Jesus Christ is the Father of eternity or the architect of eternity.
This is perfect agreement with Revelation 3:14, "And to the angel of the church in Laodicea write, "The Amen, the faithful and true Witness, the Beginning of the creation of God, says this." That word "beginning" in the Greek is arche and we get our English word "architect" from that word. Jesus Christ before His incarnation is the architect/planner of all creation and existed before creation as God the Son.
This is also why John 1:3 says, "All things came into being by Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being." Furthermore, regarding John 1:1 it says "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was WITH God, and the Word was God." This is clearly Jesus Christ before His incarnation. If you are "WITH" someone, then you are other and distinct from that person.
And more proof that Jesus Christ preexisted His incarnation is at John 17:5 where it says, "And now, glorify Thou Me together WITH Thyself, Father WITH glory I had with Thee BEFORE THE WORLD WAS." Finally, in the Old Testament Jesus appeared as God made visible as "The Angel of the Lord." Lastly, but not leastly you made this statement,
"Indeed, the pre-incarnate person who later became the human Jesus lived from pasr eternity. But He did not ive from ALL PAST eternity as Almighty God, YHWH." Please reconcile how the human Jesus lived from past eternity but He did not live from ALL PAST eternity as Almighty God, YHWH? In other words, where do you draw the line from "past eternity as opposed from ALL PAST eternity as Almighty God?" And PS: Notice I did not mention or even use the word trinity in what I posted. The issue is not the trintiy but who is Jesus Christ and did He appear before His incarnation.
IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
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And regarding you statement, "God makes it clear in the OT He is eternal, that there is no other God but He Himself." Ok fine, then explain Micah 5:2, "But as for you , Bethlehem Ephrathah, Too little to be among the clans of Judah, FROM YOU ONE WILL GO FORTH FOR ME TO BE RULER IN ISRAEL; HIS GOINGS FORTH ARE FROM LONG AGO, FROM THE DAYS OF ETERNITY." Who's goings forth are from the days of eternity in this verse quasar? What if I told you that His goings forth have also been in the OT?
[FONT=wf_segoe-ui_normal]You also quoted Isaiah 43:10, but what about vs11? "I, even I, and the Lord, AND THERE IS NO SAVIOR BESIDES ME." If your going to follow strict rules of interpretation then you should take it to its logical conclusion. God says there is no Savior besides Him but yet Luke 2:11 says, "for today in the city of David there HAS BEEN BORN FOR YOU A SAVIOR, WHO IS CHIRST THE LORD."[/FONT]
[FONT=wf_segoe-ui_normal]"It is God, the Holy Spirit and Father, who brought forth the pre-incarnate person, who was the FIRSTBORN over all creation, who later became the human Jesus to be our Savior, as the Scriptures clearly document, previously addressed above. Knowing the end from the beginning, Indeed, the pre-incarnate person who later became the human Jesus lived from pasr eternity. But He did not ive from ALL PAST eternity as Almighty God, YHWH."
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No quasar, you did not address the specific verse I gave with was Micah 5:2. What does it mean that the goings forth of the Messiah/Jesus Christ reach back into eternity? Again, this is before His incarnation and yet you deny He did not preexist His incarnation? Are you aware that Micah 5:2 presupposes Isaiah 9:6 where Jesus Chrsit the Messiah is identified as the "Mighty God?" Did you not recognize from Isaiah 9:6 that a son will be given to us? Not created, but given. Are you also not aware that His name will also be "Eternal Father?" This means Jesus Christ is the Father of eternity or the architect of eternity.
This is perfect agreement with Revelation 3:14, "And to the angel of the church in Laodicea write, "The Amen, the faithful and true Witness, the Beginning of the creation of God, says this." That word "beginning" in the Greek is arche and we get our English word "architect" from that word. Jesus Christ before His incarnation is the architect/planner of all creation and existed before creation as God the Son.
This is also why John 1:3 says, "All things came into being by Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being." Furthermore, regarding John 1:1 it says "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was WITH God, and the Word was God." This is clearly Jesus Christ before His incarnation. If you are "WITH" someone, then you are other and distinct from that person.
And more proof that Jesus Christ preexisted His incarnation is at John 17:5 where it says, "And now, glorify Thou Me together WITH Thyself, Father WITH glory I had with Thee BEFORE THE WORLD WAS." Finally, in the Old Testament Jesus appeared as God made visible as "The Angel of the Lord." Lastly, but not leastly you made this statement,
"Indeed, the pre-incarnate person who later became the human Jesus lived from pasr eternity. But He did not ive from ALL PAST eternity as Almighty God, YHWH." Please reconcile how the human Jesus lived from past eternity but He did not live from ALL PAST eternity as Almighty God, YHWH? In other words, where do you draw the line from "past eternity as opposed from ALL PAST eternity as Almighty God?"
And PS: Notice I did not mention or even use the word trinity in what I posted. The issue is not the trintiy but who is Jesus Christ and did He appear before His incarnation. IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
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Ok quasar, I'm only going to deal with your statement here for now and will return later to address the rest of your post. You said, "God created the universe by the pre-incarnate person who later became Jesus. Who is, by the Scriptures, neither co-eternal nor co-equal to God, the Holy Spirit and Father."
What was this persons name who God created the universe by and later became Jesus? Secondly, I saw in one your post where you quoted Isaiah 44:24, "Thus says the Lord, your Redeemer, and the one who formed you from the womb, I, THE LORD AM THE MAKER OF ALL THINGS, STRETCHING OUT THE HEAVENS BY MYSELF, AND SPREADING OUT THE EARTH ALL ALONE." So please reconcile this unknown person (according to you before the incarnation of Jesus Christ) with God saying He created everything by Himself and alone without any help from anybody? PS: Like I said, I'll be back!
IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
What was this persons name who God created the universe by and later became Jesus? Secondly, I saw in one your post where you quoted Isaiah 44:24, "Thus says the Lord, your Redeemer, and the one who formed you from the womb, I, THE LORD AM THE MAKER OF ALL THINGS, STRETCHING OUT THE HEAVENS BY MYSELF, AND SPREADING OUT THE EARTH ALL ALONE." So please reconcile this unknown person (according to you before the incarnation of Jesus Christ) with God saying He created everything by Himself and alone without any help from anybody?
PS: Like I said, I'll be back!IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
Last night about 10:20 P.M., I lost both access to the web as well as my phone, bluto, I'm here now because access to the web retirned, but not the phone. So I will provide response to your post here, but may not be able to reply to your others until I can clear up the problems I am having with my phone.
[SUP]These are the names of the pre-incarnate person who later become Jesus, the Son of God/God the Son. In addition to who created the heavens and the earth/universe.[/SUP]
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[/SUP][SUP]Jn.1:1 "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.2 He was with God in the beginning."
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[SUP]Rev.19:11 [/SUP]I saw heaven standing open and there before me was a white horse, whose rider is called Faithful and True. With justice he judges and wages war. [SUP]12 [/SUP]His eyes are like blazing fire,and on his head are many crowns. He has a name written on him that no one knows but he himself. [SUP]13 [/SUP]He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and his name is the Word of God. [SUP]14 [/SUP]The armies of heaven were following him, riding on white horses and dressed in fine linen, whiteand clean. [SUP]15 [/SUP]Coming out of his mouth is a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations. “He will rule them with an iron scepter.”[SUP][a][/SUP] He treads the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God Almighty. [SUP]16 [/SUP]On his robe and on his thigh he has this name written: king of kings and lord of lords.
Heb.1:1"On many past occasions and in many different ways, God spoke to our fathers throughthe prophets. 2But in these last days He has spoken to us by His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, and through whom He made the universe."
Col.1:15 "The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation."
Pr.8:22“The Lord brought me forth as the first of his works,[c][d]
before his deeds of old;
23 I was formed long ages ago,
at the very beginning, when the world came to be.
24 When there were no watery depths, I was given birth,
when there were no springs overflowing with water;
25 before the mountains were settled in place,
before the hills, I was given birth,
26 before he made the world or its fields
or any of the dust of the earth.
27 I was there when he set the heavens in place,
when he marked out the horizon on the face of the deep,
28 when he established the clouds above
and fixed securely the fountains of the deep,
29 when he gave the sea its boundary
so the waters would not overstep his command,
and when he marked out the foundations of the earth.
30 Then I was constantly[e] at his side.
I was filled with delight day after day,
rejoicing always in his presence,
31 rejoicing in his whole world
and delighting in mankind.
32 “Now then, my children, listen to me;
blessed are those who keep my ways.
33 Listen to my instruction and be wise;
do not disregard it.
34 Blessed are those who listen to me,
watching daily at my doors,
waiting at my doorway.
35 For those who find me find life
and receive favor from the Lord.
36 But those who fail to find me harm themselves;
all who hate me love death.”
Quasar92
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