Why is it assumed by many here that Grace Folk live in blatant, unrepentant sin?

[LaurenTM]

Pink Diamond

No matter how sinful a Christian is or how riddled with faults he is, he shares one thing in common with more victorious Christians. The true Christian always sides with God even if it condemns himself. This right outlook and love for God, foremost, is the fruit of being born of God. The perfect example is the contrast between David and Saul ( I mentioned this once before in another thread). David's sin of adultery and murder was seemingly far worse than Saul's sin when he disobeyed Samuel's instruction concerning the sacrifice that was to be made. When David was rebuked by Nathan he was crushed and sided with God. Saul when rebuked by Samuel never really "got it" and felt that his spiritual observance should be good enough. Totally different attitudes and outlooks towards God.

Weakness and succumbing to temptation is not the same as constantly justifying

I can agree with this

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Nobody BUT YOU, consistently make these discussions about personal salvation....Not one thing mentioned in any posts is or are related or directly talk about personal salvation...not one...


A believer can SIN, but will they? Many believers know committing SIN breaks the heart of Father, so why would we want to to do break Fathers heart and put Jesus to shame? Committing Habitual Sin and abiding in Jesus[not talking about salvation here] are clearly refuted in the Bible....In Christ you are either a slave of righteousness or slave to sin, but not both....light cannot fellowship with darkness...


It is next to impossible for a believer to commit and live in Habitual sin....Wanna know why?

Because empowering grace will not let you live that way....

You seem to be saying this:

Before Johnny got saved he was single and fornicating with any woman he could find....married, divorced or single women, prostitutes it did not matter...when Johnny needed that itch scratched, it got it scratched....furthermore when Johnny could not find a woman, he relied porn to satisfy his Sin of fornication......

One night Johnny went to church , heard a message that his fornication did not matter to God, because God's grace would save him and not send him to hell, Johnny felt a little bit sorry for his fornication and he raised his hand and got saved....in the next few weeks, Johnny was continually told that God's Grace kept him from going to hell....Johnny told his grace preacher that another Christian told him, that he should keep porn off his computer and stop sleeping around with women, because it is a SIN and he has been trying in all his physical might and mental strength to keep from fornicating and looking at porn.....the grace preacher told him to stop listening to the religion pushing fruit inspector, because he was questioning your salvation and its OK for believers to live in habitual sin and be saved, because that is how grace works...

Johnny was sooooo relieved that he went out and hired 3 prostitutes and made up for lost time.

Through the following years Johnny still went to church, but avoided the religion pushing fruit inspector people, because he had grace and was still saved......His grace pastor had to "step down" for 2 weeks and then started preaching again, after people found out he was having an affair on his wife....So Johnny's SIN accelerated and was unstoppable, because hey, if my Pastor can do it and he has grace and is saved, then its ok for me too....even though there were times in the quiet places he never talked to anyone about, he heard a small still voice telling him to stop his SIN....

Johnny no longer was satisfied with just women and many women at the same time, so he started dabbling into bi-sexual encounters...Once every week Johnny still heard everything was alright because grace was on his side and he was still saved.....Johnny noticed that the still small voice stopped talking to him...he did not think much about it....when the bi-sexual encounters did not fulfill him, he began homosexual encounters....and full out orgies.....nothing could scratch that itch good enough.....Johnny was also taking copious amounts of drugs and drinking heavily during this entire cycle....every Sunday Johnny was in church hearing about how grace saved him and that nobody should judge him or question the way he lived, because Grace is grace and he was saved.....

One night after drugging and drinking himself sober, unable to perform sexually and at his wits end he heard a voice...the voice told him the answer to his ultimate itch was to be found by taking a nice hot bath....Johnny climbed into the tub and the voice told him....don't forget the razor blade....when Johnny's physical and spiritual states began to collide and he suddenly understood he was dying...he had a very real chill run down his back, because the voice now, was not the voice then.....

But hey gr8grace....we don't need no stinkin fruit, we don't need no stinkin religion and we don't need know stinkin qualifiers....cuz we have grace....

I have seen some strawman posts before. But this takes the cake. Is this what you people really think goes on. That pastors of the bible go around telling people it is ok to sin? You do not have to worry about it, Even though scripture is quite clear what God thinks of sexual sin?

Maybe you people need to visit a church and get to know people before you go off speaking of things which would never happen.

If a brother or sister comes with a sin problem, we do not discuss their salvation. That is ridiculous. We start counseling and trying to help the brother overcome that sin, with grace and love.. No send them on the way saying it is ok sin all you want.

I am sorry, But I am so sick of hearing this strawman,, It gets old..

 

[eternally-gratefull]

This is not a salvation or fruit issue gr8grace...please stop diverting and address the response......

What response? I am sorry, There was nothing to address.

 

[torus]

Because the Gospel of grace has always been so attacked (Pauline Ephistles). Paul was accused of teaching that he was espousing that people could continue in sin because they were saved by grace and he was saying they would remain saved by the same grace even if they sinned. Well the NT also says that sin shall not rule over those who are saved by grace. You see, we are saved by grace thru faith. John 3:16 does not mention any following of any Law to be saved and it says if you believe in God's Son, you have eternal life. This cannot be eternal life if it can be cut short for whatever reason. If sin can cut short so called eternal life then it is not really eternal life. You do good works because you are saved, not to keep your salvation. Eph, Gal.

 

[Stephen63]

All grace folk that I have listened to believe in repentance whenever they hear the word of Christ and I have listened to over a thousand messages from different ministers of the gospel of Christ. But everyone it seems is free to believe what all other Christians are doing in their lives and accuse them of things.

Oh sure, they believe in changing their mind..... once.

Then again I do not know all grace folks either.

No, you only fight as their Goliath, & you seem to know everything when you need to know it.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

[/B]Oh sure, they believe in changing their mind..... once.[/SIZE] No, you only fight as their Goliath, & you seem to know everything when you need to know it.

No, we believe in TRUE repentance.

Not wishy washy repentance and wish washy faith..

And going around telling people I do not sin, I make booboo's and oopsies.

 

[Stephen63]

I agree with you...altho I do not see all repentance as being sorrowful but it does often do manifest in that emotion when it is used in the context of sinning. God repented and I'm sure He didn't have sorrow attached to it.

Really?!? You're sure?!? Were you there when He repented that He made Man? You know how He feels?!? Who is it that knows God that well?!?
How is it you are great enough assign the proper feelings to God?!?

2 Corinthians 7:10 (NASB)
[SUP]10 [/SUP] For the sorrow that is according to the will of God produces a repentance without regret, leading to salvation, but the sorrow of the world produces death.

This scripture is taken out of context. It means
"repentance not to be regretted of because of the results it brings"

Paul was dealing with the Corinthians where he said that they were sorrowful according to God ( the will of ) in this verse is not in the original. They were made sorrowful by the first letter he wrote to them when he chastised them.

Apparently you have repentance & conviction mixed up. One can be convicted of the truth & obey gladly, or repent under conviction when they're proven in sin.

 

[Stephen63]

PinkDiamond - found it.

Here is what I do when I sin..

I love to kneel quickly and tell my Father how I trust in Him..how what I did was wrong..sometimes I use the word sin..sometimes I don't..I think that is irrelevant...

I run to my Father and tell Him how that His Son..my Lord is my life..my righteousness,..Jesus Blood has secured my redemption and forgiveness of sins....I confess what God says about me...I tell Him I love Him and trust in Him...

I have not asked for forgiveness in order to be forgiven for quite some time now...but I always talk with my Lord about what I do or don't do...

You know ...He always loves on me and tells me He loves me and that He is my life and strength. Sometimes I have felt a warm liquid like feeling of pure love fall on me..and I just sit there in His presence and weep..I can't move a muscle..He is so mighty in power yet His love and total acceptance is the most overwhelming aspect of His presence.


To me..all sin is relational. All sin is a failure to see the life of Christ in me. I am ignorant of His life in me. To me..most outward sin is just a "fruit" of the real sin.

For example..If I steal something..that is a sin..but the real sin behind that is the failure to recognize my Father will take care of me. I am operating in the flesh. I want to take things into my own hand and "do" things. ( I don't steal....well I haven't since I was a kid...not that I can remember anyway..it's just an example )

The other part is when you see how horrid it really is when we mess up....sin....transgress.... whatever term you want to use.

..what I see is my unbelief in the goodness and love of my Father and Lord Jesus for me. That is the horrid part because I know that is not Their character nor is it really my true nature now and what He has made me in Christ.

This above causes great sorrow in me - whether it is from God or my own emotions from the world and the Lord has always been there to hold me to Him and tell me I belong to Him and that His grace is sufficient for me. That sin is as far from me as the east is from the west. Walk on in who you are in Me as I am your life.

That shouldn't have been hard to find, considering how many times you copied it. Do you have a database you copy/paste from? Or do you have an automated program that makes you look caring & smart? Or, do you have other people doing the work for you? How DOES one get over 12,000 posts since just last November? I only have 5900, since 2009! My, that's a lot of copies!!

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[Jimbone]

There ya Go. I wholly agree. It SHOULD be like that. The bible NEVER says that it WILL be like that.

Christ is going to finish His Good work in every believer.

But not ONE verse says that the believer DOGMATICALLY WILL finish or even begin their good works.

So you are against good works? I don't understand your point. I believe 100% that an encounter with the true and living God of all creation WILL CHANGE ANYONE, ANYONE, I do not understand why any Christian would argue with this at all. Why preach against these "works", which to me are just simply what Jesus calls us to do.

Honestly all credit goes to Him because the "old me" would have NEVER even cared to do many of the things the Spirit now leads me to do. I do them because I love God and really they are good for me in practice too. Why speak against this at all? I'm not talking about sitting balled up in the corner, rocking back and forth, worried about "did I do enough good to stay saved", and each of us serve in our own way, but every follower of Christ, True follower or Christ WILL produce "fruit". That is what I've been led to believe thus far, and what I think Jesus clearly says.

 

[GandalfTheWhite]

So you are against good works? I don't understand your point. I believe 100% that an encounter with the true and living God of all creation WILL CHANGE ANYONE, ANYONE, I do not understand why any Christian would argue with this at all. Why preach against these "works", which to me are just simply what Jesus calls us to do.

Honestly all credit goes to Him because the "old me" would have NEVER even cared to do many of the things the Spirit now leads me to do. I do them because I love God and really they are good for me in practice too. Why speak against this at all? I'm not talking about sitting balled up in the corner, rocking back and forth, worried about "did I do enough good to stay saved", and each of us serve in our own way, but every follower of Christ, True follower or Christ WILL produce "fruit". That is what I've been led to believe thus far, and what I think Jesus clearly says.

Hi Jim

Gr8 pulled the plug on himself... he is now only a guest

 

[Jimbone]

Hi Jim

Gr8 pulled the plug on himself... he is now only a guest

Yeah, I didn't even realize until after I posted. That's too bad.

 

[Grace777x70]

[/B]Oh sure, they believe in changing their mind..... once.[/SIZE] No, you only fight as their Goliath, & you seem to know everything when you need to know it.

Can we not have a discussion without the insults?..Thank you.

 

[Grace777x70]

That shouldn't have been hard to find, considering how many times you copied it. Do you have a database you copy/paste from? Or do you have an automated program that makes you look caring & smart? Or, do you have other people doing the work for you? How DOES one get over 12,000 posts since just last November? I only have 5900, since 2009! My, that's a lot of copies!!

Can we not have a discussion without the insults?...I will post my testimony about how the Lord deals with me as much as I feel the Lord wants me too...is that a crime? Please stop this behavior. Thank you.

 

[GandalfTheWhite]

I must say Grace I also struggled a bit with people on CC. It is my own struggle but sometimes before I can help myself I go into "ugly mode". I have my reason and even if I do believe that I am right I know that I should back down. My problem is I hate it when people are deceitful or it feels to my like they are lying to people in their face. I can't stand it but I am trying my best not take it out on other CC members.... but I do fail, more often than not

 

[Grace777x70]

I must say Grace I also struggled a bit with people on CC. It is my own struggle but sometimes before I can help myself I go into "ugly mode". I have my reason and even if I do believe that I am right I know that I should back down. My problem is I hate it when people are deceitful or it feels to my like they are lying to people in their face. I can't stand it but I am trying my best not take it out on other CC members.... but I do fail, more often than not

Well...we could look at it this way - we have a change to have the life and nature of our Father and Lord be manifested that is already in us in our new creation in Christ in these types of situations....it means that we need to rely on Christ's life in us more than ever.....without Him we can do nothing....

 

[eph610]

What response? I am sorry, There was nothing to address.

this was to gr8 who is now gone, not you EG...

 

[eph610]

what equator?

true lol, I hope you now this response was a joke, not to be mean!

 

[Grace777x70]

Originally Posted by LaurenTM

what equator?

true lol, I hope you now this response was a joke, not to be mean!

It's pretty hard to find an equator with a flat earth...lol

 

[eph610]

I have seen some strawman posts before. But this takes the cake. Is this what you people really think goes on. That pastors of the bible go around telling people it is ok to sin? You do not have to worry about it, Even though scripture is quite clear what God thinks of sexual sin?

Maybe you people need to visit a church and get to know people before you go off speaking of things which would never happen.

If a brother or sister comes with a sin problem, we do not discuss their salvation. That is ridiculous. We start counseling and trying to help the brother overcome that sin, with grace and love.. No send them on the way saying it is ok sin all you want.

I am sorry, But I am so sick of hearing this strawman,, It gets old..

If you think for a minute that this is simply a strawman, you better get out more and get in the battle...My Narrative to gr8grace is exactly what many Churches do.....and absolutely what he was pushing......you might want to re-read and heed what gr8grace said...he said believers can and do live in habitual sin and that it is OK, because they are saved....


I know firsthand all about this all to familiar lie from hell teaching,because we get the remnants of the destroyed people that are all messed up from this false saving grace message that says your saved, but you are powerless over sin, and if it controls you no bid deal, because grace has saved you and God loves you, and you will go to heaven, so if you live in your habitual Sin, not a big deal....there is not need for growing up spiritually and they they teach them that fruit inspectors are just religious pharisees spouting works based salvation.....and should be avoided, as should any spiritual growth.....

TO the uninitiated, who have no Bible worldview, which is most of what we see now, this does in fact register to them, they can live in Habitual sin and be just fine....I am not asking for fruit of proof of salvation...I am saying that once Jesus comes into your life, you will be forever be changed and will not put him to shame and break his heart by living in habitual sin.....and because of empowering grace being activated you will begin to live differently, do things differently and that will be noticed on the outside, because of the radical change on the inside.....to which I will add and that you and gr8 say is impossible to know...If I ask him to, the Holy Ghost shows me the changing spirit of a person before the outward manifestations, it is this spirit change that is the fragrance of the new fruit that will be giving birth soon.

Saving grace and empowering grace are 2 very different things and many saving grace only preachers have no clue about the difference....and that is dangerous and only give people a nice bumpy free ride right into hell....

If there is no inward change as in Johnny's case, then he most likely was only in mental assent....and that is the real damage saving grace only teaching does..

 

[LaurenTM]

true lol, I hope you now this response was a joke, not to be mean!