Unconditional Election or Conditional Election

[Grandpa]

but then why all the warnings about being led astray by false teachers? If we are predestined, it won't matter what we hear or do, as we go to heaven / hell no matter what else happens.

Before we come to Christ we are led astray. What causes us to come back to the Lord?

Matthew 24:24 [FONT=&quot]For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

[/FONT]The question really is when were we elected? Was it before the foundation of the world? Or was it when we 'chose' Christ?

Surely we did not know we were chosen until after we were shown.


I wish I could answer your questions better. I see the warnings as for un-believers or those who have not yet been to Christ.

 

[SovereignGrace]

Then he hates us all and we are back to scratch. Or do you know someone who never ever "Bore false witness"?
Yes, if you claim you do I WILL accuse you of ... bearing false witness....

Again, you're missing the point. The only reason God loves any of us is because of the Christ. We were chosen in the Christ before the creation of the world. He gave those sins of those He chose to the Lamb to atone for.

If hate does not mean hate, then how do we knew love means love? If hate means to love less, how do we know that love means love? By that reasoning, love could really mean He's just more tolerant of us, the believers.

 

[John146]

Again, you're missing the point. The only reason God loves any of us is because of the Christ. We were chosen in the Christ before the creation of the world. He gave those sins of those He chose to the Lamb to atone for.

If hate does not mean hate, then how do we knew love means love? If hate means to love less, how do we know that love means love? By that reasoning, love could really mean He's just more tolerant of us, the believers.

If this is true, then we were never the objects of God's wrath. See Ephesians 2.

 

[SovereignGrace]

If this is true, then we were never the objects of God's wrath. See Ephesians 2.

I am full aware of Ephesians 2. I accept the whole counsel of God and accept all His attributes. He is a God of wrath and in this wrath is hatred, not just towards sin, but sinners.

 

[SovereignGrace]

If this is true, then we were never the objects of God's wrath. See Ephesians 2.

There no 'if' to if this were true. It's true. We were chosen in Christ from before the creation of the world. Yet, we were also children of wrath, even as others.

 

[John146]

Dead ppl don't choose...dead ppl can't choose. One must be quickened by the Spirit of God first.

By your reasoning, Lazarus came out and then the Christ gave him life.

By your reasoning, those very dry bones in Ezekiel 37 came together of their own volition and had the wind blow life into them.

By your reasoning, the widow's son in Luke 7 rose up and then the Christ gave him life.

You're logic is flawed comparing physical death to spiritual death. By your logic, if one obeys the gospel, they really didn't obey since God chose them to obey anyway.

Let me ask you...when believers are judged at the JSOC, what will we be judged for if we never really had the ability to choose to obey the Lord?

Another...hell was created for Satan and his demons and yet the lost will surely go there. If God knew already there would be those that He didn't choose go to hell, didn't he create hell for the lost as well?

 

[John146]

There no 'if' to if this were true. It's true. We were chosen in Christ from before the creation of the world. Yet, we were also children of wrath, even as others.

We never had been the object of God's wrath if God already chose us before the foundation of the world. I know you want it to fit your theology but it doesn't. Change your theology to fit the word.

 

[trofimus]

You're logic is flawed comparing physical death to spiritual death. By your logic, if one obeys the gospel, they really didn't obey since God chose them to obey anyway.

This is a good point. There is no certain basis for applying the rules of the physical death to the spiritual one.

Let me ask you...when believers are judged at the JSOC, what will we be judged for if we never really had the ability to choose to obey the Lord?

A good point too. There must be something "between" these two opposite theologies. Or both are true, even though it does not seem so in our logic.

 

[SovereignGrace]

We never had been the object of God's wrath if God already chose us before the foundation of the world. I know you want it to fit your theology but it doesn't. Change your theology to fit the word.

Look at the cross. The Christ, the Son of the most high God. God pouring out His divine wrath upon His Son as He was being judged as a sinner.

He who knew no sin became sin so that we could be righteous before God. [1 Cor. 5:19]

 

[preacher4truth]

We never had been the object of God's wrath if God already chose us before the foundation of the world. I know you want it to fit your theology but it doesn't. Change your theology to fit the word.

Utter nonsense as per Scripture, which you've failed to use. Note Ephesians 2:3; among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind.

Written to those who were elect prior to the foundation of the world, describing their state prior to conversion, following the context and audience from chapter 1.

So, that being said, change your philosophy to an actual theology to fit the Word and please attempt to even know what you're talking about. You're not showing theology, but some traditional philosophy that doesn't reflect the Word at all. The Word is clear and you're frankly in error.

 

[Magenta]

I see, ty for the correction my friend

You are welcome Blain. It may be helpful for you to think in terms of self will instead of free will. Free will has a lot of baggage attached to it that has nothing to do with the choices people make concerning God. People who say that everything happens at the express will of God make Him into a monster Who forces people to rape and murder, and commit all manner of evil, as opposed to a God Who allows people to choose doing evil over choosing to do good, just as Adam was allowed to choose death over life. I suppose those others also think Adam had no choice? Well, I have seen some make up all manner of things in regards to that, also. Here are some immutable Scriptural truths:

Jesus Christ came into the world to do the Will of His Father.

It was the will of the Father for Jesus Christ to die on the cross.

The Father sent Jesus Christ as a demonstration of God's Love.

Jesus Christ came into the world to seek and save the lost, and call sinners to repentance.

Jesus came into the world to give Himself as a ransom for many.

Jesus Christ came into the world to fulfil the law.

Jesus Christ came into the world that men might have a life more abundant.

I think it would be really helpful if people better understood Gehenna, Sheol, and
Hades. Hell was not created for the devil and his demons. The lake of fire was.

 

[Depleted]

I would say unconditional but then conditions should also play a part

Whose conditions?

(I too believe there are conditions, but the conditions were Jesus dying on that cross for whosoever the Father gives him. Not our conditions. God's conditions.)

 

[Depleted]

According to you I don't take God at his word yet other say different, I take God at his word but that doesn't mean I take what you say it says. it isn't enough to just know the scriptures if you don't also take into account who God is. the scriptures are very deep they have many many layers and sometimes to truly understand them you have to have a an understanding of his heart his nature his way of seeing things his ways of thinking his ways of being.

None of can fully know this of course but when we have a close and intimate bond with him he reveals his nature and his heart to us and when we know this of him and add it to the scriptures it can reveal things to us we might not have seen or known before. it isn't just the scriptures that i say what I say about election it's what I know of his heart and who he his as well

Covered in what I said next to you.

Also covered in what I said last here. DON'T trust me either. Honest. Do the word study. You're one of the few on here who likes to study about God. I'm seriously telling you to go for it. It works for you. Study the word "all." (You might want to just do NT, since "all" is in the whole of the Bible a whooooolllle lot. It would take you a year to cover all the alls. lol)

 

[Depleted]

Our logic is made suitable for the time-space physical reality we live in. It fails in higher dimensions, spiritual realms etc.

And this topic is exactly the area where we must not rely on our planetary logic. Because we cannot see the broader picture.

Pffft, Modernism at it's finest. You were taught well in the double-talk of the 80's and 90's. Don't buy the world's double-talk. Even they haven't, so they went right on into post-modernism, which now teaches us even more crap. Worldly truth, not real truth.

 

[preacher4truth]

Look at the cross. The Christ, the Son of the most high God. God pouring out His divine wrath upon His Son as He was being judged as a sinner.

He who knew no sin became sin so that we could be righteous before God. [1 Cor. 5:19]

With the deranged argument against election being provided against the revelation of God's Word, that is, that we were never objects of wrath (utter nonsense) then there would also be no necessity for the Cross, logically, because there would be no need for propitiation. Unbelievable the nonsense people arrive at in attempt to counter revealed truth. Clearly we (the elect) were also objects of wrath.

 

[John146]

Utter nonsense as per Scripture, which you've failed to use. Note Ephesians 2:3; among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind.

Written to those who were elect prior to the foundation of the world, describing their state prior to conversion, following the context and audience from chapter 1.

So, that being said, change your philosophy to an actual theology to fit the Word and please attempt to even know what you're talking about. You're not showing theology, but some traditional philosophy that doesn't reflect the Word at all. The Word is clear and you're frankly in error.

Clearly the Bible says we all were the objects of God's wrath. Paul is speaking to the believers, who at one time were the object of God's wrath. Why were they in Christ? Because God chose them to be in Christ? NO! They obeyed the gospel of Christ. Forced obedience is not obedience. One cannot be the object of God's wrath if God chose them to salvation before the foundation of the world. There would be never a time they were not saved.

 

[Depleted]

it's easy to make the mistake of thinking that someone rejects part of the bible when in reality they just think it isn't syaing what the person thinks it is. The word of God is either 100% true or not at all if we reject one part but accept another then what is the point? I don't reject the word I simply think it doesn't mean what some say it does there is a difference

Then what is predestination if it doesn't mean what it clearly says it means? (Paul explains it right after he mentions it. Romans 9 after the end of Romans 8 is no mistake.)

And what is election if it isn't election? Did America just tiddlywink a new President?

(And, given I used an older word for my verb there, do you know what tiddlywinks was? lol)

 

[Depleted]

But did he say if there were limitations to who could come to him and become his child?

YES! Every. Single. Time!!!

 

[maxwel]

Unconditional Election:

So... do you think Trump won the election with unconditional election?

 

[JIMBO43]

He created everything that exists, things visible and invisible.

If nothing existed, no rebellions would exist, too.

So even though He is not actively causing rebellions, He is making the world leading to them and creating persons that will rebel under the circumstances they are set in.

I recommend the book Theodicy by G.W.Leibniz

so is that why demons still roam the plannet because God somehoe feels he created it he must fix it ?
like human sacrifice isnt permited yet he made it a condition
i advice you to look at the book of common sence by im a loon.com youll be more suited there