How long is the tribulation?

[PlainWord]

The wrath to come in AD 66-70 against the religious leaders of Christ day was first announced by John the Baptist. Not only the wrath but the warning to repent.

[SUP]7 [/SUP]But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming to his baptism, he said to them, “Brood of vipers! Who warned you to flee from the wrath to come? [SUP]8 [/SUP]Therefore bear fruits worthy of repentance...

John was at the River Jordan, east of Jerusalem, over the mountains, in the wilderness between Israel and Jordan. The Pharisees left Jerusalem and came out into the wilderness, the exact place the Christians fleeing Jerusalem would go during the AD 66-70 war. Now obviously the Pharisees had no idea what John the Baptist was talking about, but he knew.

Notice also that John tells them to bear fruits (show actions) of repentance. This identical instruction was given to Daniel in 9:24. Seventy weeks were given to stop sinning and to make reconciliation for their iniquity. They didn't do it and therefore the rest of Daniel's prophesy of wrath was fulfilled.

Jesus warns the Pharisees over and over of the pending judgment against them for their wicked ways.

[SUP]43 [/SUP]For days will come upon you when your enemies will build an embankment around you, surround you and close you in on every side, [SUP]44 [/SUP]and level you, and your children within you, to the ground; and they will not leave in you one stone upon another, because you did not know the time of your visitation.” ...[SUP]47 [/SUP]And He was teaching daily in the temple. But the chief priests, the scribes, and the leaders of the people sought to destroy Him...

Rather than heed His warning, they sought to put Him to death. He goes on to tell the parable about the wicked vinedressers and was of course speaking of the Pharisees. If you read before the Olivet you will see warning of pending judgment on the religious leaders leading up to Christ talking about the temple to be destroyed. So when Rome destroyed the temple, this was the fulfillment of OT prophet and Christ prophesy in their day and upon their generation.

 

[Timeline]

This may be the most confusing inaccurate thread I've seen on CC . The preterist having the tribulation as a past occurrence is ridiculous. Mat 24, Luk 21 and Mk 13 aren't that complicated, they are detailed in Revelation 6. Example; Mark 13:6 is repeated in Rev 6:2, Mk 13:7 = Rev 6:4, Mk 13:8 = Rev 6:6, Mk 13:9 = Rev 6:9, Mk 13:13 = Rev 6:11, Mk 13:26 = Rev 6:17, etc.

The last 7 years of the prophecy (Daniel 9; 24-27) still await fulfillment. Its in the middle of that seventieth week, when we see the desolator (antiChrist) standing where he ought not. This has not occurred yet. Timeline explained; APPENDIX 91. THE SEVENTY WEEKS OF DAN 9:24-27

Daniel 9:24
[SUP]24 [/SUP]“Seventy weeks (with a 2,000 year gap before the last week) have been decreed for your people and your holy city, to finish the transgression, to make an end of sin, to make atonement for iniquity, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the most holy place.

For anyone that doesn't know - the "with a 2,000 year gap before the last week" is not in Scripture."

 

[garee]

Now back to the tribulation of Matthew 24:21 which begins when they see the AOD Matthew 24;15 it either was set up,they saw it before ad70 or it has not been set up nor seen yet but the tribulation spoken of cannot begin until the AOD is seen according to Jesus. Is there an event in history between ad32-33 and ad70 that fulfils the AOD being set up and seen?

I would offer.The AOD began when Christ said it is finished, the renting of the vail indicated it. It is at that time (the time of reformation) , that Satan and his angels (/3) fell and were forbidden to enter the holy place(the new Jerusalem) with the angels who did not leave their first place of habitation.

It marked the first century reformation .Leaving no outward figure for a person to place their faith in, a tribulation not know before and therefore the faith was restored to a another time period when there was no outward representation and God reigned from heaven as King, by faith.

The buying and selling has to do with God’s truth, as it is written. The antichrists (many) were already there doing its work of making the faith of God without effect, as the AOD. It marked the beginning of the last days, the tribulation spoken of.
The number of the beast Is reckoned as two thirds. (666/1000), as the dividing line..... 1/3 indicates those who do have the faith of Christ, that works in us to both will and do His good pleasure.

 

[PlainWord]

This may be the most confusing inaccurate thread I've seen on CC . The preterist having the tribulation as a past occurrence is ridiculous. Mat 24, Luk 21 and Mk 13 aren't that complicated, they are detailed in Revelation 6. Example; Mark 13:6 is repeated in Rev 6:2, Mk 13:7 = Rev 6:4, Mk 13:8 = Rev 6:6, Mk 13:9 = Rev 6:9, Mk 13:13 = Rev 6:11, Mk 13:26 = Rev 6:17, etc.

The last 7 years of the prophecy (Daniel 9; 24-27) still await fulfillment. Its in the middle of that seventieth week, when we see the desolator (antiChrist) standing where he ought not. This has not occurred yet. Timeline explained; APPENDIX 91. THE SEVENTY WEEKS OF DAN 9:24-27

You are forgetting that there were two parts to the question:

1) When will these things happen (The temple and city being destroyed and becoming desolate)?

2) The sign of Your coming and the end of the age?

ANSWER:

1) It is the City and Temple which become desolate. This desolation happened in 70 AD. The fleeing happened before 70 AD. Therefore the Abomination (which causes desolation) happened back then, not in the future as there is no future desolation of Jerusalem taught. In fact Eze 38 and Rev 20 clearly teach that the next time Jerusalem is surrounded by enemies, God divinely intervenes.

You have to compare passages and take everything as a whole. Mark's version is essentially the same as Matthew so let's compare Mat and Luke:

[SUP]15 [/SUP]“Therefore when you see the ‘abomination of desolation,’ spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place” (whoever reads, let him understand), [SUP]16 [/SUP]“then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains... [SUP]21 [/SUP]For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be.

[SUP]20 [/SUP]“But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation is near. [SUP]21 [/SUP]Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains... [SUP]22 [/SUP]For these are the days of vengeance...For there will be great distress in the land and wrath upon this people.

In Matthew 24, it's the Abomination of Desolation that is the trigger to flee Judea to avoid "great tribulation." In Luke 21, it's the Roman armies which surround Jerusalem as the precursor to flee the "days of vengeance" or "great distress" which is the "wrath" upon the Jews.

Conclusion:

"Abomination of Desolation" = "Roman" armies
"Great Tribulation" = "Great Distress, vengeance and wrath" upon the Jews

2) The passage in Mat 24 transitions between verse 26 (when Jesus warns of following the many false Christs who rose up in 66-70 AD claiming to be Messiah come to rescue them from the Roman invaders. Those who followed these fake Christs out of the city were slaughtered), and verse 27. In verse 27 Jesus states that when He returns, it will be "FAST AS LIGHTENING." History teaches that Roman armies took every stone down from upon another and left Jerusalem a total and utter desolate wasteland.

 

[GaryA]

This may be the most confusing inaccurate thread I've seen on CC .

You are confused because you have been taught error concerning the 70 weeks of Daniel.

The preterist having the tribulation as a past occurrence is ridiculous.

The 'tribulation' [ of which you speak ] is past, present, and future...

Mat 24, Luk 21 and Mk 13 aren't that complicated, they are detailed in Revelation 6. Example; Mark 13:6 is repeated in Rev 6:2, Mk 13:7 = Rev 6:4, Mk 13:8 = Rev 6:6, Mk 13:9 = Rev 6:9, Mk 13:13 = Rev 6:11, Mk 13:26 = Rev 6:17, etc.

No. SMH

The last 7 years of the prophecy (Daniel 9; 24-27) still await fulfillment.

No -- 100% of all 490 years have been fulfilled.

Its in the middle of that seventieth week, when we see the desolator (antiChrist) standing where he ought not.

In the middle of the 70th week is when Christ is "cut off"...

( The 62 weeks of Daniel 9:26 start when the city is finished being built -- which occurs ~ 7.5 weeks after the "going forth" of the commandment to restore it. The end of these same 62 weeks coincides with "and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease" in Daniel 9:27. )

 

[GaryA]

Do you realize that - in 'event' terms - verses 7-8 occur after verses 9-13?

Mat 24:1-26 Fulfilled in AD 66-70
Mat 24:27-51 Future

Verses 7-8 occur after verses 21-26; however, they partially coincide-and-overlap with verse 24 - which indicates a longer span of time that overlaps and extends beyond the rest of those verses. ( 21-23; 25-26 )

 

[iamsoandso]

and some are shorter,

Daniel 12:11 ,Matthew 24:22

 

[Spurgeoncy]

Verses 7-8 occur after verses 21-26; however, they partially coincide-and-overlap with verse 24 - which indicates a longer span of time that overlaps and extends beyond the rest of those verses. ( 21-23; 25-26 )

Verses 7-8 do not occur
after 21-26, why introduce a strange concept like that?

 

[PlainWord]

Verses 7-8 occur after verses 21-26; however, they partially coincide-and-overlap with verse 24 - which indicates a longer span of time that overlaps and extends beyond the rest of those verses. ( 21-23; 25-26 )

No need to jump around my friend, once you fully understand the times they were in. Jesus actually gives the Olivet in chronological order. There were wars, famines, pestilences and earthquakes in various places before 66-70 AD.

FAMINE AND PESTILENCE (in various places):

Here's your famine, which happened during Claudius (41-54 AD) and with famine always comes pestilence as they go hand-in-hand:

Acts 11:28

Then one of them, named Agabus, stood up and showed by the Spirit that there was going to be a great famine throughout all the world, which also happened in the days of Claudius Caesar.

Josephus confirms the historical context:

Antiquities 20.2.5 49-53:

Her arrival was very advantageous to the people of Jerusalem; for a famine oppressed them at that time, and many people died for want of money to procure food. Queen Helena sent some of her servants to Alexandria with money to buy a great quantity of grain, and others of them to Cyprus to bring back a cargo of dried figs. They quickly returned with the provisions, which she immediately distributed to those that need. She has thus left a most excellent memorial by the beneficence which she bestowed upon our nation. And when her son Izates was informed of this famine, he sent great sums of money to the principal men in Jerusalem.

Antiquities 20.5.2 101:

The successor of Fadus was Tiberius Alexander...it was in that (or their) administration that the great famine occurred in Judea, during which Queen Helen bought grain from Egypt for large sums and distributed it to the needy, as I have stated above.

The above doesn't even count the great famine inside Jerusalem during the Roman siege which killed 100,000s.

EARTHQUAKES:

The Bible records 3 earthquakes between the time Christ said it and 70 AD. A massive earthquake occurred when Christ died and another when He arose, which may have been a massive aftershock:

[SUP]51 [/SUP]Then, behold, the veil of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom; and the earth quaked, and the rocks were split...

[SUP]2 [/SUP]And behold, there was a great earthquake; for an angel of the Lord descended from heaven, and came and rolled back the stone from the door, and sat on it.

Let's not forget the earthquake which freed Paul and Silas:

[SUP]26 [/SUP]Suddenly there was a great earthquake, so that the foundations of the prison were shaken; and immediately all the doors were opened and everyone’s chains were loosed.

History records at least 5 major earthquakes in other places during this same era:

Crete 46 AD, Rome 51 AD, Apamaia 53 AD, Laodicea 60 AD and Campania 62 AD.

WARS:

1. Ceasars Nero, Galba, Otho, and Vitellius suffered violent deaths, in only 18 months
   
2. Josephus said in Antiquities 18:5:3, that Bardanes, and after him Volageses declared war against the Jews. (war) He also says that Vitellius, governor of Syria, declared war against Aretas, king of Arabia, but the death of Tiberius prevented war.

I am convinced now that everything Jesus foretold in Mat 24:4-20 were events leading up to God's great vengeance upon Jerusalem and those who killed His Son. 70 AD was the "Great Tribulation" of Mat 24:21.

[SUP]21 [/SUP]For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be.

"Nor EVER shall be", means nothing will be like this again.

The "tribulation of those days" in Mat 24:29 is future and refers back just one verse to verse 24:28. If we look at Luke's account we see the world will be like this, before Christ returns.

...on the earth distress of nations, with perplexity, the sea and the waves roaring.

The sea and waves refer to people, not the oceans. Did you watch the news yesterday? Could be starting with Trump as he is driving the world, not just the US, crazy.

 

[PlainWord]

I agree with GaryA 100% on Dan 9 with a small exception. I think God gave Israel 490 years to repent and obey Him or else they would suffer complete destruction and desolation. They did not repent or obey therefore the destruction and desolation occurred. When Messiah was cut off, it was week 69.5 and when Stephen was stoned, week 70 concluded. Dan 9 was their promise and warning.

Nothing stated the wrath to come in 66-70 AD had to be in those 70 weeks. Although the wrath is mentioned and the resulting desolation, God gave Israel an extra 36-40 years so that the Gospel could be taken to the rest of the world.

John the Baptist was the first in the NT to tell the Pharisees that wrath was coming to Jerusalem and that they should repent:

[SUP]7 [/SUP]But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming to his baptism, he said to them, “Brood of vipers! Who warned you to flee from the wrath to come? [SUP]8 [/SUP]Therefore bear fruits worthy of repentance...

And of course Jesus foretells judgment to them all over the place, especially during His final week.

THE GREAT TRIBULATION of MAT 24:21 is OVER!!! IT happened in 70 AD.

But, another "tribulation" is coming and comes just before Christ returns. This future tribulation comes upon the whole earth as told by Dan 12:

And there shall be a time of trouble, Such as never was since there was a nation, Even to that time..

It is also told in Rev 3 as the Hour of Trial:

[SUP]10 [/SUP]Because you have kept My command to persevere, I also will keep you from the hour of trial which shall come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth. [SUP]11 [/SUP]Behold, I am coming quickly!

What is this tribulation? Luke 17 tells us:

[SUP]34 [/SUP]I tell you, in that night there will be two men in one bed: the one will be taken and the other will be left. [SUP]35 [/SUP]Two women will be grinding together: the one will be taken and the other left. [SUP]36 [/SUP]Two men will be in the field: the one will be taken and the other left.”

The above is the future tribulation. You don't want to be the one taken. You want to be left to stand before the Son of Man.

 

[iamsoandso]

what about the holocaust in the 40's where 6-9 million Jews were killed is this incorrect since Josephus said it is already fulfilled?

 

[KJV1611]

But, another "tribulation" is coming and comes just before Christ returns. This future tribulation comes upon the whole earth as told by Dan 12:

And there shall be a time of trouble, Such as never was since there was a nation, Even to that time..

This is the time of Jacob's - the first coming of Christ and AD 70.

 

[PlainWord]

This is the time of Jacob's - the first coming of Christ and AD 70.

Negative. Daniel's people were not delivered in AD 70. They were slaughtered. (Obviously some fled and lived but that isn't the context here) There was an awaking of some of the dead with Christ in 30 AD but Jacob's trouble was some 36-40 years later. Follow the order of events:

And there shall be a time of trouble,
Such as never was since there was a nation,
Even to that time.
And at that time your people shall be delivered,
Every one who is found written in the book.
[SUP]2 [/SUP]And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake,
Some to everlasting life,
Some to shame and everlasting contempt.
[SUP]3 [/SUP]Those who are wise shall shine
Like the brightness of the firmament,
And those who turn many to righteousness
Like the stars forever and ever.

Trouble first, then the resurrection. In Christ time there was the resurrection first, then years later, the trouble.

 

[iamsoandso]

thing about it is that the scriptures keep getting in the way

In Daniel 12:11 when the daily sacrifice is taken away then 1290 days later the abomination of desolation is set up. As many see it in ad70 the sacrifices ended,so 1290 days later the AOB is suppose to be set up. So, 1290 days added to ad70 would be ad73-73 approx. unless it's a day for a year so then ad70 plus 1290 is ad1360 and nothing took place in either place in time to attribute to the AOB

Then in Matthew 24:15 they are told that when the AOB is seen that the tribulation would be in those days(after AOB is seen) and they are told to flee because they see it. Which order of events is correct,is the daily removed and the the AOD set up then after that the tribulation or the tribulation first(siege of Jerusalem),the daily removed and then the AOD seen? if the events of ad70 are correct then they faced the tribulation before the daily is removed and the AOD set up and seen,hmm seems backward how can it be a sign to flee if tribulation takes place before the sign's given to flee?

Then there's the tribulation itself it's attributed to the Jews who do not believe in Jesus but for the sake of the elect(believer's in Jesus?), Matthew 24:22 those days are shortened. If this tribulation is a tribulation that the non believer's of Jesus face and they are the elect then they are spared,days shortened ect. because Gods not finished with them and has future plans for them. But if those days were shortened for the elects sake and the elect are those who believe in Jesus and they fled when they saw the AOD set up then the daily sacrifice and the AOD were prior to the fall of Jerusalem in ad70 it would have to have taken place four years prior in ad66. Can someone who does not believe in Jesus die for his names sake,Matthew 24:9? That should be a big clue that is those who died in ad70 during the siege and those who died in the 40's in the Holocaust did not die for his names sake,they were waiting for a different Messiah because they did not believe in Jesus so they did not die for "his name's sake" and did not fulfil this,the only ones who can die for his name are those who believe in him.

 

[KJV1611]

Negative. Daniel's people were not delivered in AD 70. They were slaughtered. (Obviously some fled and lived but that isn't the context here) There was an awaking of some of the dead with Christ in 30 AD but Jacob's trouble was some 36-40 years later. Follow the order of events:

And there shall be a time of trouble,
Such as never was since there was a nation,
Even to that time.
And at that time your people shall be delivered,
Every one who is found written in the book.
[SUP]2 [/SUP]And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake,
Some to everlasting life,
Some to shame and everlasting contempt.
[SUP]3 [/SUP]Those who are wise shall shine
Like the brightness of the firmament,
And those who turn many to righteousness
Like the stars forever and ever.

Trouble first, then the resurrection. In Christ time there was the resurrection first, then years later, the trouble.

Jesus the deliverer delivered TRUE Israel when he came the first time.
The dead were raised when Christ rose from the dead.
Israel was wiped out in AD 70.

 

[PlainWord]

Jesus the deliverer delivered TRUE Israel when he came the first time.
The dead were raised when Christ rose from the dead.
Israel was wiped out in AD 70.

Exactly!! The order you just gave was:

1. Christ (the Deliverer and resurrection)
2. Worst tribulation ever (of 70 AD)

The order Dan 12 gives:

1. Worst Tribulation
2. The Deliverance and resurrection

The order is reversed.

The order given in Mat 24:29-31 is:

1. Tribulation (future)
2. Christ returning

 

[dcontroversal]

Immediately AFTER the TRIBULATION of those days.....did the sun go dark, the moon go dark and the stars fall from heaven....Did the angels of God gather the elect from the four winds of heaven and from one end of the earth to the other...Or men for fear from seeing those thing that are COMING upon the earth drop dead from failing hearts......

NO, No, No, No, and that would be a NO!

 

[KJV1611]

thing about it is that the scriptures keep getting in the way

In Daniel 12:11 when the daily sacrifice is taken away then 1290 days later the abomination of desolation is set up. As many see it in ad70 the sacrifices ended,so 1290 days later the AOB is suppose to be set up. So, 1290 days added to ad70 would be ad73-73 approx. unless it's a day for a year so then ad70 plus 1290 is ad1360 and nothing took place in either place in time to attribute to the AOB

Then in Matthew 24:15 they are told that when the AOB is seen that the tribulation would be in those days(after AOB is seen) and they are told to flee because they see it. Which order of events is correct,is the daily removed and the the AOD set up then after that the tribulation or the tribulation first(siege of Jerusalem),the daily removed and then the AOD seen? if the events of ad70 are correct then they faced the tribulation before the daily is removed and the AOD set up and seen,hmm seems backward how can it be a sign to flee if tribulation takes place before the sign's given to flee?

Then there's the tribulation itself it's attributed to the Jews who do not believe in Jesus but for the sake of the elect(believer's in Jesus?), Matthew 24:22 those days are shortened. If this tribulation is a tribulation that the non believer's of Jesus face and they are the elect then they are spared,days shortened ect. because Gods not finished with them and has future plans for them. But if those days were shortened for the elects sake and the elect are those who believe in Jesus and they fled when they saw the AOD set up then the daily sacrifice and the AOD were prior to the fall of Jerusalem in ad70 it would have to have taken place four years prior in ad66. Can someone who does not believe in Jesus die for his names sake,Matthew 24:9? That should be a big clue that is those who died in ad70 during the siege and those who died in the 40's in the Holocaust did not die for his names sake,they were waiting for a different Messiah because they did not believe in Jesus so they did not die for "his name's sake" and did not fulfil this,the only ones who can die for his name are those who believe in him.

I'm not sure when the need for daily sacrifices ended, I believe it was either at the death of Christ or at the start of his ministry. Even though it wan't required after Christ came, there was no enforcement to stop it until the temple and Jerualem were destroyed in AD 70. So the ceasing of the daily sacrifice has two parts the way I see it - the need is gone, then the enforcement comes later.

 

[KJV1611]

Exactly!! The order you just gave was:

1. Christ (the Deliverer and resurrection)
2. Worst tribulation ever (of 70 AD)

The order Dan 12 gives:

1. Worst Tribulation
2. The Deliverance and resurrection

The order is reversed.

The order given in Mat 24:29-31 is:

1. Tribulation (future)
2. Christ returning

Do you agree that this is the time of Jacob's trouble?

 

[iamsoandso]

I'm not sure when the need for daily sacrifices ended, I believe it was either at the death of Christ or at the start of his ministry. Even though it wan't required after Christ came, there was no enforcement to stop it until the temple and Jerualem were destroyed in AD 70. So the ceasing of the daily sacrifice has two parts the way I see it - the need is gone, then the enforcement comes later.

Consider the book of Acts how many years did the Church remain in Jerusalem after Jesus made the statement in Matthew 24, Jesus was crucified ad33(approx),when he made the statement prior to this in his opinion the AOD event had not yet been seen hence he tells them to look for it. Then they remain in Jerusalem until approx ad66 which is 33 years later. If the daily sacrifice continued until ad70 (they thought so it seems) because the scripture state (Daniel 12:11) that the offering would stop,then 1290 days later the AOD would be set up and Jesus had told them when they saw it to flee because the trib would begin when they saw it Matthew 24:15-22. why did they remain in Jerusalem for so long if it was way back then when it took place?