Romans 6 reveals majestic glory that I once heavily overlooked. We are blessed.

[PeterJens]

yes I do aug 99- aug 2000. I never thought I was sinless. the main thing I found was how different the Bible was than the legalistic garbage that I was taught as a young person, that God loves us and wants us to turn to him,

legalistic garbage - that God loves us and wants us to turn to him

"I have made you known to them, and will continue to make you known in order that the love you have for me may be in them and that I myself may be in them."
John 17:26

For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
John 3:16

What gb9 is expressing is why I am shocked by him and the group as a whole.
The hurt and pain they have suffered being obedient disciples but now deeply hurt,
has truly distorted and wounded them. The hatred and bitterness is now poured out
against Gods people who identify with "God loves us and wants us to turn to him."

But in the very words he expresses, he declares himself the enemy of this truth.

His gospel is people accept they are where they are and accept Christ died for them.
Gone is any victory or overcoming, it is this victory they deny and call garbage.

"But mark this: There will be terrible times in the last days. People will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boastful, proud, abusive, disobedient to their parents, ungrateful, unholy, without love, unforgiving, slanderous, without self-control, brutal, not lovers of the good, treacherous, rash, conceited, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God— having a form of godliness but denying its power. Have nothing to do with such people."
2 Tim 3:1-5

Paul is declaring to walk in godliness is the power of the cross.
So those who end up hypocrites and failures are denying what the cross means.

But in truth what we are talking about is marriage, divorce, adultery, sexual desire and the
guilt that goes with it. Deep wounds, rejection, hurt, bitterness. Unless one can let Christ
heal at this level, everything else becomes a joke. But rather be totally compromised than
resolve the heart, and lie that you believe in Christ, but rather want all the emotional feelings
without getting right with the living God.

God forgave David, and overcame the adultery and murder through repentance and sorrow,
recognising the sin, and desiring not to do it again.

 

[Ariel82]

You totally misread his post PeterJens.

Gb is saying he learned that as a child he was taught legalistic garbage.

.However he NOW embraces that God loves us and wants us to turn to Him.

He isn't calling that statement legalistic garbage, but affirming it as Gospel truth.

I wished you would forgive and lay down the axe you have to grind with others. Its tiring to watch and provokes fights and shows massive immaturity.

 

[gb9]

legalistic garbage - that God loves us and wants us to turn to him

"I have made you known to them, and will continue to make you known in order that the love you have for me may be in them and that I myself may be in them."
John 17:26

For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
John 3:16

What gb9 is expressing is why I am shocked by him and the group as a whole.
The hurt and pain they have suffered being obedient disciples but now deeply hurt,
has truly distorted and wounded them. The hatred and bitterness is now poured out
against Gods people who identify with "God loves us and wants us to turn to him."

But in the very words he expresses, he declares himself the enemy of this truth.

His gospel is people accept they are where they are and accept Christ died for them.
Gone is any victory or overcoming, it is this victory they deny and call garbage.

"But mark this: There will be terrible times in the last days. People will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boastful, proud, abusive, disobedient to their parents, ungrateful, unholy, without love, unforgiving, slanderous, without self-control, brutal, not lovers of the good, treacherous, rash, conceited, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God— having a form of godliness but denying its power. Have nothing to do with such people."
2 Tim 3:1-5

Paul is declaring to walk in godliness is the power of the cross.
So those who end up hypocrites and failures are denying what the cross means.

But in truth what we are talking about is marriage, divorce, adultery, sexual desire and the
guilt that goes with it. Deep wounds, rejection, hurt, bitterness. Unless one can let Christ
heal at this level, everything else becomes a joke. But rather be totally compromised than
resolve the heart, and lie that you believe in Christ, but rather want all the emotional feelings
without getting right with the living God.

God forgave David, and overcame the adultery and murder through repentance and sorrow,
recognising the sin, and desiring not to do it again.

no peter, you mis-read my post, and I should have worded it a bit differently. what I meant was- when I was a kid, I went to a legalistic, " you have to be a good person so that God will accept you" church. I walked away from the legaliaism at age 16. when I came to Christ at age 26, began reading the Bible daily, I began to see how much of what I was taught was wrong.

I learned through reading the Bible all the way through that God loves and saves us, we do not have to be good enough to earn grace, something that was NOT taught in the legalistic church. hope this helps.

and you still need to use the Biblical definition of sin to define it peter.

 

[PeterJens]

no peter, you mis-read my post, and I should have worded it a bit differently. what I meant was- when I was a kid, I went to a legalistic, " you have to be a good person so that God will accept you" church. I walked away from the legaliaism at age 16. when I came to Christ at age 26, began reading the Bible daily, I began to see how much of what I was taught was wrong.

I learned through reading the Bible all the way through that God loves and saves us, we do not have to be good enough to earn grace, something that was NOT taught in the legalistic church. hope this helps.

and you still need to use the Biblical definition of sin to define it peter.

Ok. I am sorry if I miss-understood you, it appeared in two sentences to mean what I thought.

"we do not have to be good enough to earn grace" - Amen, Gods grace is provided to all.

But we do need to repent, confess, believe and follow in Jesus's ways.

It is why you seem to confuse who Christ is with acceptance. I am accepted as a sinner,
forgiven and washed through the blood so that I might walk in love and righteousness.

I am not cleansed to just pollute myself again. A drug addict is cured because he no longer
goes back to his addiction, a drowning man is put on safe ground, and does not go and drown
themselves again.

The question we always have to answer is how do we walk in purity, holiness and Godliness.

It strikes me many have now openly abandoned this question, and call those who raise the call
to walk in these ways as miss-guided. Why is this?

 

[Stephen63]

Thank God that John told us exactly what those commandments are in the New Covenant and they are definitely not grievous. They are glorious!

1 John 3:23 (NASB)
[SUP]23 [/SUP] This is His commandment, that we believe in the name of His Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, just as He commanded us.

Right believing in the finished work of Christ will release His life in us which will result in right living. As we behold the glory ( goodness) of the Lord as in a mirror - the Holy Spirit transforms us to reflect outwardly what has already happened in the new creation in Christ. 2 Cor. 3:17-18

As we know the love of God for us - this too will release His love in and through us to a hurt and dying world that needs to know His love and grace towards them.

Go to Google & look up "commands of Jesus", or NT commandments. You'll discover you missed a bunch, especially about obedience.

Omitting scripture is a sin, especially when those scriptures say to believe a totally different way than you do.

Imaging someone saying they love Jesus, then make His teachings before the cross null & void.

How can that be viewed other than talking outta both sides of your mouth?

 

[PeterJens]

you still need to use the Biblical definition of sin to define it peter.

This is your recurring theme.
As far as I understand your interpretation of sin is just hyper legalism.
Some talk about self being sinful, Jesus being perfect, so all of self is evil, all of Jesus is ok.

But this kind of language is simply meaningless, the wrong dividing line.
All we do is self doing it, from the day we are conceived to the day we die. Who is directing
and inspiring our actions does vary, but is also subtle, and Paul actually avoids even judging
himself in this regard.

Sin is that which leads to death, and is obvious and apparent. Nothing is acceptable that is
sinful. This is what I call blatant sin.

Now we are called to love each other, to have love dwell in our hearts, to regard others needs
in the same way we regard our own. We also need to get away from success and failure goals
we give ourselves but rather walk in the mind of Christ and see the good things we can do for
each other. This is our walk were we spend most of our time.

The issues here are often working for God and not man, dealing with hurts and anger from others
where we are innocent parties, accepting the pain and forgiving and walking on in love.

But few seem to get this far, and are still talking about purity, failure and struggles.

It is this area I am interested in exploring, how you bear one anothers weaknesses and see Gods
love flowing out of ones heart to others around you.

 

[FreeNChrist]

"I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. The life I now live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself for me." Galatians 2:20

 

[Grace777x70]

Jesus said to "Go show yourself to the priest" - to the person that was healed? Is that a command that we are to follow today too?

Jesus told the rich young ruler to "go and sell all that you have and give it away to the poor". Do we all do that now? Of course not.

To read any scripture without looking at it through the lens of the finished work of Christ on the cross and resurrection and ascension to the throne - it just creates a religion that uses Christianized terms like Jesus, God, word of God, Holy Spirit...etc.

This in effect denies the work of Christ and nullifies the very love and grace of God from operating in our lives like it should.

 

[gb9]

This is your recurring theme.
As far as I understand your interpretation of sin is just hyper legalism.
Some talk about self being sinful, Jesus being perfect, so all of self is evil, all of Jesus is ok.

But this kind of language is simply meaningless, the wrong dividing line.
All we do is self doing it, from the day we are conceived to the day we die. Who is directing
and inspiring our actions does vary, but is also subtle, and Paul actually avoids even judging
himself in this regard.

Sin is that which leads to death, and is obvious and apparent. Nothing is acceptable that is
sinful. This is what I call blatant sin.

Now we are called to love each other, to have love dwell in our hearts, to regard others needs
in the same way we regard our own. We also need to get away from success and failure goals
we give ourselves but rather walk in the mind of Christ and see the good things we can do for
each other. This is our walk were we spend most of our time.

The issues here are often working for God and not man, dealing with hurts and anger from others
where we are innocent parties, accepting the pain and forgiving and walking on in love.

But few seem to get this far, and are still talking about purity, failure and struggles.

It is this area I am interested in exploring, how you bear one anothers weaknesses and see Gods
love flowing out of ones heart to others around you.

look, I am not trying to boast and brag, and make other feel bad, but I have read the Bible from front to back 16-17 times. while it is fine to do a topical study, or have daily devotionals ( we all should ), this is where I am coming from.

I am not coming from a read the same things over and over again place. it is important to understand what sin is before declaring you don't do any. peter, this part was not directed at you, you admit you are not perfect, as do i.

 

[PeterJens]

no peter,....
... the Biblical definition of sin to define it peter.

Your tone is as someone who is trying to correct me but being unclear where you have
a problem.

The law clearly lays our where sin is detected.
Jesus lays out clearly where He would like us to be.

I have made you known to them, and will continue to make you known in order that the love you have for me may be in them and that I myself may be in them.
John 17:26

Love is a 4 letter word that is hard to translate, you need to experience it
and have your heart opened up to it.

As I have stated many times before, those who do not know these words
oppose this very message, the message of Christ to world, that we might know
what love is, and have it rule our lives.

Now Jesus preached this word of Israel and they killed Him, and He said we would
face the same opposition wherever we go, and so it has proved.

 

[PeterJens]

Jesus said to "Go show yourself to the priest" - to the person that was healed? Is that a command that we are to follow today too?

Jesus told the rich young ruler to "go and sell all that you have and give it away to the poor". Do we all do that now? Of course not.

To read any scripture without looking at it through the lens of the finished work of Christ on the cross and resurrection and ascension to the throne - it just creates a religion that uses Christianized terms like Jesus, God, word of God, Holy Spirit...etc.

This in effect denies the work of Christ and nullifies the very love and grace of God from operating in our lives like it should.

This in effect denies the work of Christ

This is a very aggressive statement. It is claiming certain ways of being a believer
denies the work of Christ. I call such teaching miss-leading and condemning.

Christ came to share it is how you walk with Him that matters not anybody else.
You can be in the most lost, idiotic group and still find Jesus and His truth.

It is this personal revelation and walk that defines who we are as the people of God.
It is also why I can praise the Lord amongst those who think they know Him but do not.

The Lord is always looking for His people to be lights of the love and word He has put in
our hearts, and help show people the Lord can lead them from wherever they are to this
place to life.

I have spent my life among so many people who do not know the freedom of Christs words
in their souls, yet would regard themselves as Christian. I would just show them the power
of His life rather than talk about the denial of something they have never achieved which would
be pointless.

 

[Grace777x70]

Man-made humanistic self-righteousness mindsets and beliefs nullify the grace of God from operating in our lives as revealed in what Christ has already done for us.

Religion will be forever at odds with the work of the Lord Jesus Christ. They come as "ministers of righteousness".

Satan and his horde do not come to the believer in Christ and say "Sin all you want" because no one would for fall for such a lie.

Instead they come as "ministers of righteousness".

They want us to live by our own D.I.Y. self-righteousness/holiness so that we will be not be depending on what Christ has already done for us by grace through faith alone for salvation and living while on this earth.

We are trying to accomplish through our own self-efforts what Christ has already done in His finished work on the cross and resurrection - and we too died with Him and were raised to newness of life - a new creation in Him. Created in righteousness and holiness.- totally dependent on His life now for all things.

This cuts us off from receiving the grace of God in our lives.

2 Corinthians 11:14-15 (KJV)
[SUP]14[/SUP] And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.

[SUP]15[/SUP] Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works. ( notice that is "their" works )

This below is what satan is really after...this is why he has false teachers in our midst. He wants us to fall away from grace and depend on our own performance.

1 Peter 1:13
[SUP]13 [/SUP] Therefore, prepare your minds for action, keep sober in spirit, fix your hope completely on the grace being brought to you at the revelation of Jesus Christ.

 

[Ariel82]

Petersjens, his correction was in response to your attempt to correct him.

I see what you mean about gnostic teachings some on this forum hold. Gb, isn't one of them.

He just wants to make sure everyone has a biblical definition of sin, which I believe most of the folks in the thread do have and will admit not to be sinless. That we all need Jesus to save us.

Now we enter how does one walk righteously and godly before Christ stage.

 

[Stephen63]

Jesus said to "Go show yourself to the priest" - to the person that was healed? Is that a command that we are to follow today too?

Jesus told the rich young ruler to "go and sell all that you have and give it away to the poor". Do we all do that now? Of course not.

To read any scripture without looking at it through the lens of the finished work of Christ on the cross and resurrection and ascension to the throne - it just creates a religion that uses Christianized terms like Jesus, God, word of God, Holy Spirit...etc.

This in effect denies the work of Christ and nullifies the very love and grace of God from operating in our lives like it should.

So does invalidating Jesus' teachings before the cross.

So does cherrypicking grace scriptures & ignoring the rest to teach Radical Grace. Those that refuse or twist plain scripture to verify their beliefs are in a cult.

To read any scripture without looking at it through the lens of the finished work of Christ on the cross and resurrection and ascension to the throne - it just creates a religion that uses Christianized terms like Jesus, God, word of God, Holy Spirit...etc.

That's exactly what Radical Grace Doctrine does..... use "christianized" terms.

Don't cry..... you opened this door.

 

[Stephen63]

Man-made humanistic self-righteousness mindsets and beliefs nullify the grace of God from operating in our lives as revealed in what Christ has already done for us.

Religion will be forever at odds with the work of the Lord Jesus Christ. They come as "ministers of righteousness".

Satan and his horde do not come to the believer in Christ and say "Sin all you want" because no one would for fall for such a lie.

Instead they come as "ministers of righteousness".

They want us to live by our own D.I.Y. self-righteousness/holiness so that we will be not be depending on what Christ has already done for us by grace through faith alone for salvation and living while on this earth.

We are trying to accomplish through our own self-efforts what Christ has already done in His finished work on the cross and resurrection - and we too died with Him and were raised to newness of life - a new creation in Him. Created in righteousness and holiness.- totally dependent on His life now for all things.

This cuts us off from receiving the grace of God in our lives.

If you would take up your cross & follow Jesus like He said to do & stay away from man-made religion, you wouldn't have that problem.

 

[Ariel82]

If you would take up your cross & follow Jesus like He said to do & stay away from man-made religion, you wouldn't have that problem.

You know day in and day out you target people and pick not them. Its old and just because people don't buy into the "second blessing" "holy spirit baptism" of the Pentecostal doctrine; does not mean they are teaching "hyper grace" doctrines you accuse them of.

Grace777 has said countless times that he believes people should lead godly lives. Others as well.

What is extreme is saying you must have a level of maturity and "godliness" before you will be baptized by the Holy spirit.

What is extreme is that some Pentecostal ( I don't know if you are one are not), but some say that you must speak in tongues as a "sign" that you have been baptized.

I believe in the unction of the Holy Spirit for those who are called to ministry.

However I rebuke and call unscriptual the doctrine of "second blessings" and requiring people to speak in tongues to "prove they have been baptized by the Holy Spirit".

I believe being baptized with the Holy Spirit is synonymous with being indwelled with the Holy Spirit.

I agree that maturity is need for ministry and that the unction and call should be upon a believer who steps up for any office in the church.

However, I recognize that ALL BELIEVERS ARE EQUAL NO MATTER THEIR MATURITY LEVEL. God loves all equally.

I soundly reject doctrines that place mature believers as "better" or "more blessed" than others.

I see mature believers as servants, who should be humble and willing to wash the feet and value those in their care higher than themselves giving of their time, lives, love and prayers to help all grow to maturity in Christ.

 

[Stephen63]

1) You know day in and day out you target people and pick not them. Its old and just because people don't buy into the "second blessing" "holy spirit baptism" of the Pentecostal doctrine; does not mean they are teaching "hyper grace" doctrines you accuse them of.

2) Grace777 has said countless times that he believes people should lead godly lives. Others as well.

3) What is extreme is saying you must have a level of maturity and "godliness" before you will be baptized by the Holy spirit.

4) What is extreme is that some Pentecostal ( I don't know if you are one are not), but some say that you must speak in tongues as a "sign" that you have been baptized.

5) I believe in the unction of the Holy Spirit for those who are called to ministry.

6) However I rebuke and call unscriptual the doctrine of "second blessings" and requiring people to speak in tongues to "prove they have been baptized by the Holy Spirit".

7) I believe being baptized with the Holy Spirit is synonymous with being indwelled with the Holy Spirit.

8) I agree that maturity is need for ministry and that the unction and call should be upon a believer who steps up for any office in the church.

9) However, I recognize that ALL BELIEVERS ARE EQUAL NO MATTER THEIR MATURITY LEVEL. God loves all equally.

10) I soundly reject doctrines that place mature believers as "better" or "more blessed" than others.

11) I see mature believers as servants, who should be humble and willing to wash the feet and value those in their care higher than themselves giving of their time, lives, love and prayers to help all grow to maturity in Christ.

1. G777 says he believes in the bapt. of the Holy Spirit. He also believes in Hypergrace.

2. JW's & Mormons say the same things..... which cult doesn't?

3. I never said that. Some in Acts were saved & baptized in the Spirit at the same time.

4. I don't fully believe that. After all, Joel said they would prophesy.

5. So do I.

6. You don't have to call it a "second blessing", that's just a name. But it's real, no matter what you call it. I tend to call it a third work of grace.

7. That is unscriptural. The disciples were already saved before commanded to tarry in the upper room. Others in Acts were already saved when they received the baptism.

8. I agree.

9. God does love equally. But God will use the faithful & willing before the unfaithful. That's just wisdom.

10. There are some technically "better" & "more blessed" than others. Read Proverbs & Ecclesiastes. The one with knowledge, wisdom, & understanding is always "better" & "blessed" than their counterparts.

"My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge" Obviously those with knowledge are better off.

11. Agreed.

 

[SpiritLed]

Man-made humanistic self-righteousness mindsets and beliefs nullify the grace of God from operating in our lives as revealed in what Christ has already done for us.

Religion will be forever at odds with the work of the Lord Jesus Christ. They come as "ministers of righteousness".

Satan and his horde do not come to the believer in Christ and say "Sin all you want" because no one would for fall for such a lie.

Instead they come as "ministers of righteousness".

They want us to live by our own D.I.Y. self-righteousness/holiness so that we will be not be depending on what Christ has already done for us by grace through faith alone for salvation and living while on this earth.

We are trying to accomplish through our own self-efforts what Christ has already done in His finished work on the cross and resurrection - and we too died with Him and were raised to newness of life - a new creation in Him. Created in righteousness and holiness.- totally dependent on His life now for all things.

This cuts us off from receiving the grace of God in our lives.

1 Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin;
2*That he no longer should live the rest of his time in the flesh to the lusts of men, but to the will of God."

Romans 8:14 clearly states that only those that walk in and are LED by the Spirit of God are the sons of God. How on earth do you tell yourself that you are being led by the Holy Spirit of God while committing a sin??

If you'd read my post on the previous page, you'd know I'm not preaching this whack "sinless perfection" that you accuse me of. In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ I am proclaiming the hope of Glory which is Christ in me and you try to quench the fire and passion that burns inside me and accuse me of heresy, the fiery passion within me is the Lord Jesus Christ the hope of glory, pure and unquenchable.

 

[SpiritLed]

Whoever says it's impossible to cease from sin, you claim to be as the CURSED CHILDREN that we SAINTS are warned about in 2 Peter ch2!!

"Having eyes full of adultery and THAT CANNOT CEASE FROM SIN: beguiling souls: a heart they have exercised with covetous practices; cursed children: which have FORSAKEN THE RIGHT WAY, AND HAVE FALLEN ASTRAY " 2 Peter 2:14-15

 

[FreeNChrist]

1 Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin;
2*That he no longer should live the rest of his time in the flesh to the lusts of men, but to the will of God."

Romans 8:14 clearly states that only those that walk in and are LED by the Spirit of God are the sons of God. How on earth do you tell yourself that you are being led by the Holy Spirit of God while committing a sin??

If you'd read my post on the previous page, you'd know I'm not preaching this whack "sinless perfection" that you accuse me of. In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ I am proclaiming the hope of Glory which is Christ in me and you try to quench the fire and passion that burns inside me and accuse me of heresy, the fiery passion within me is the Lord Jesus Christ the hope of glory, pure and unquenchable.

It's unbelievers who are "in the flesh", not believers.