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What does the bible say? 16For a righteous man falls seven times, and rises again, But the wicked stumble in time of calamity.
Obedience
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Way Of The Spirit
Focus: The Lord Jesus Christ (John 14:6)
Object Of Faith: The Cross of Christ (Romans 6:1-14)
Power Source: The Holy Spirit (Romans 8:1-2, 11)
Results: Victory (Romans 6:14)
Man's Way
Focus: Works.
Object Of Faith: Performance.
Power Source: Self.
Results: Defeat!
[SUP]18 [/SUP]I counsel you to buy from Me gold refined in the fire, that you may be rich; and white garments, that you may be clothed, that the shame of your nakedness may not be revealed; and anoint your eyes with eye salve, that you may see. Rev. 3:18 NKJV
All and every commandment is kept if the Believer is operating and understand "The Law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus!" (Romans 8:2)
Majority of Christians are living under the "Law of Sin and Death." Very few Christians live in "The Law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus."
The one who is totally trusting in Christ and what Christ did at the Cross doesn't worry about keeping the Commandments, because they already are kept. It is done in Christ, with the Believer resting secure in that Finished Work. If our faith is not exclusively in Christ and the Cross, then, pure and simple, we are not serving the Christ of the Bible, but rather "another Jesus."
Focus: The Lord Jesus Christ (John 14:6)
Object Of Faith: The Cross of Christ (Romans 6:1-14)
Power Source: The Holy Spirit (Romans 8:1-2, 11)
Results: Victory (Romans 6:14)
Man's Way
Focus: Works.
Object Of Faith: Performance.
Power Source: Self.
Results: Defeat!
[SUP]18 [/SUP]I counsel you to buy from Me gold refined in the fire, that you may be rich; and white garments, that you may be clothed, that the shame of your nakedness may not be revealed; and anoint your eyes with eye salve, that you may see. Rev. 3:18 NKJV
All and every commandment is kept if the Believer is operating and understand "The Law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus!" (Romans 8:2)
Majority of Christians are living under the "Law of Sin and Death." Very few Christians live in "The Law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus."
The one who is totally trusting in Christ and what Christ did at the Cross doesn't worry about keeping the Commandments, because they already are kept. It is done in Christ, with the Believer resting secure in that Finished Work. If our faith is not exclusively in Christ and the Cross, then, pure and simple, we are not serving the Christ of the Bible, but rather "another Jesus."
Repenting to believe in Christ's finished work on the cross is our obedience in action. It is being obedient to the faith. It's time for all of us to repent and believe the gospel - which is true New Covenant obedience - just like Jesus said. Mark 1:16
From this "obedience" the life of Christ can be manifested as His fruit is born on us the branches and the world can see the love and grace that our loving Father and Lord really has for them....
From this "obedience" the life of Christ can be manifested as His fruit is born on us the branches and the world can see the love and grace that our loving Father and Lord really has for them....
Firstly we repent from unbelief. That's the first step.
I don't agree with the concept of telling people who want to make the step of faith that they must 'repent of all their sins first before they can be forgiven and then ask them to ask Jesus into their lives and then leave them to get on with it'
The primary work of God and the reason the Holy Spirit came was to convict of unbelief and not sins of the flesh as such.
I cannot recall Jesus saying to anyone who came to him "Ask for forgiveness of your sins first and then I'll let you in"
A person cannot graft themselves into the vine.
A person is grafted into the vine when they believe, not when they ask for frogivness of past sins or prove their obedience.
A person then can only grow in Christ, When grafted in they start to show buds of change, bear fruit.
To me the biggest problem in the church is the birthing process.
We need spiritual midwives who know what they are doing.
on a side note before I'm called a greasy gracer because I'm not.
I do believe that part of the birthing process the Holy Spirit should be allowed to move to reveal stuff in the past that a person needs to confess before God and then thank him for his forgiveness BUT also to ask God whom they need to forgive.
To me the biggest detriment to our relationship with God is wilful sin, and unforgivness.
Repenting to believe in Christ's finished work on the cross is our obedience in action. It is being obedient to the faith. It's time for all of us to repent and believe the gospel - which is true New Covenant obedience - just like Jesus said. Mark 1:16
From this "obedience" the life of Christ can be manifested as His fruit is born on us the branches and the world can see the love and grace that our loving Father and Lord really has for them....
From this "obedience" the life of Christ can be manifested as His fruit is born on us the branches and the world can see the love and grace that our loving Father and Lord really has for them....
are advising?
Sounds like going to the market and someone is selling a health plan, and giving money
to help all those who take up the plan. A man steps forward and accepts the money
and then goes off and continues their existing lifestyle ignoring the health plan.
They were just exploiting the generosity of the person giving out the free offer.
Look at Israel coming out of Egypt. Moses goes up the mountain for a short while,
lets make a god ourselves and do what we like, we were delivered out of Egypt,
great, lets have a good time. Then judgement fell and many were literally executed.
This is the kind of world those who preach saved to live a you like are preaching.
It is just lawlessness and rebellion founded on the benefits of Gods grace on His
people.
Legalism - in the biblical sense of the word - is any attitude or belief that human merit can produce, prove, or preserve for one-self an acceptable standing before God.
Whenever our assurance of salvation rests upon our "performance" rather then upon the "promises" of God that are Yes and Amen in Christ - we are in big trouble - we have fallen from grace to rely on our own self-effort so grace does not flow to us.
Our true obedience is to "the faith" - which is complete reliance on Christ's life for living and we live by faith in Christ's work on the cross and resurrection.
Obedience in the New Covenant:
In loving God and others as Jesus says is the greatest commandment in the law in relation to obedience.
Obedience to me is a fruit of the life of Christ in our inner man. It is not the root. It's the love of God and the life of Christ manifesting Himself in and through us to a hurt and dying world and to our fellow brethren.
It is not necessarily something "we do to be" but stems from something we "already are now" in Him and so we "do love" as we grow in our awareness of His love for us.
We obey our Lord and Father because we know Him and trust in His character and obedience is not a set of rules that we follow, but a natural flow of the life of God in us built on a love-trust relationship. When you know the love of God for us we will obey Him naturally and effortlessly.
When our minds are renewed to the truth that is in Christ - we obey from our hearts effortlessly. It's a fruit of being in Christ.
I maintain that obedience is a fruit of the life of Christ in our inner man that is created in Christ. When we teach the grace of God this enables us to bear His fruit in and through us to reflect the true kingdom of the love and grace of God to a hurt and dying world.
Teach and preach who believers are in Christ because we are in union in one spirit with the Lord Jesus and they will "awake to righteousness" that is in them because they are a new creation in Him and sin not and walk in the good works that God has prepared for them.
Whenever our assurance of salvation rests upon our "performance" rather then upon the "promises" of God that are Yes and Amen in Christ - we are in big trouble - we have fallen from grace to rely on our own self-effort so grace does not flow to us.
Our true obedience is to "the faith" - which is complete reliance on Christ's life for living and we live by faith in Christ's work on the cross and resurrection.
Obedience in the New Covenant:
In loving God and others as Jesus says is the greatest commandment in the law in relation to obedience.
Obedience to me is a fruit of the life of Christ in our inner man. It is not the root. It's the love of God and the life of Christ manifesting Himself in and through us to a hurt and dying world and to our fellow brethren.
It is not necessarily something "we do to be" but stems from something we "already are now" in Him and so we "do love" as we grow in our awareness of His love for us.
We obey our Lord and Father because we know Him and trust in His character and obedience is not a set of rules that we follow, but a natural flow of the life of God in us built on a love-trust relationship. When you know the love of God for us we will obey Him naturally and effortlessly.
When our minds are renewed to the truth that is in Christ - we obey from our hearts effortlessly. It's a fruit of being in Christ.
I maintain that obedience is a fruit of the life of Christ in our inner man that is created in Christ. When we teach the grace of God this enables us to bear His fruit in and through us to reflect the true kingdom of the love and grace of God to a hurt and dying world.
Teach and preach who believers are in Christ because we are in union in one spirit with the Lord Jesus and they will "awake to righteousness" that is in them because they are a new creation in Him and sin not and walk in the good works that God has prepared for them.
Jesus our saviour, our example, the Holy, pure, chosen, King, walked to the cross
at great, cost, pain and dedication.
It is simply a lie to suggest to follow such a King, to have persecution, loss of family,
lively hood, and even ones life is effortless.
Only a person steeped in a non-persecuted life without external pressures or reality
of the world could even suggest this is the walk with Christ.
And the fight against desires and lusts of the flesh are no easy thing. Unless ofcourse
you have totally given in, and indulge constantly, when ofcourse everything is effortless
because ones real enemy has now been called a friend. But to live in this way is to be
of the world and part of it.
at great, cost, pain and dedication.
It is simply a lie to suggest to follow such a King, to have persecution, loss of family,
lively hood, and even ones life is effortless.
Only a person steeped in a non-persecuted life without external pressures or reality
of the world could even suggest this is the walk with Christ.
And the fight against desires and lusts of the flesh are no easy thing. Unless ofcourse
you have totally given in, and indulge constantly, when ofcourse everything is effortless
because ones real enemy has now been called a friend. But to live in this way is to be
of the world and part of it.
Fruit doesn't struggle to be fruit. It receives the "sap" of the Vine and it naturally bears the life of the Vine which manifests as fruit. This is what is called "effortless bearing" of fruit.
We are to fight the good fight of faith - which means to have total reliance on what Christ has done in His work on the cross and resurrection. This is "abiding in the Vine" and fruit bearing is effortless because we are not the one trying to produce fruit. This is a major stumbling block to the one trying to produce fruit by what they do.
The branches do not produce fruit - they bear the fruit of the life of the Vine. This is a stumbling block to us that are works-based D.I.Y. self-righteousness/holiness humanistic mindsets.
All those that live godly "in Christ Jesus" will suffer persecution - this has nothing to do with "trying to produce fruit by our own efforts." or by abiding in the Vine in order for His fruit to manifest in our lives. Two completely different subjects.
We are to fight the good fight of faith - which means to have total reliance on what Christ has done in His work on the cross and resurrection. This is "abiding in the Vine" and fruit bearing is effortless because we are not the one trying to produce fruit. This is a major stumbling block to the one trying to produce fruit by what they do.
The branches do not produce fruit - they bear the fruit of the life of the Vine. This is a stumbling block to us that are works-based D.I.Y. self-righteousness/holiness humanistic mindsets.
All those that live godly "in Christ Jesus" will suffer persecution - this has nothing to do with "trying to produce fruit by our own efforts." or by abiding in the Vine in order for His fruit to manifest in our lives. Two completely different subjects.
Obedience to the truth
People who believe they have arrived at communion with God already, have no
need for purity, holiness, righteousness in their lives.
As one member said to me, they pray for people, God answers their prayers, they are doing
good things, so they do not need purity or holiness.
But in truth as God empowers His people through the Holy Spirit and the cross, these rebellious
people are irrelevant. All we are called to do is proclaim His word and stand by Him.
Until the coming of judgement these people will stick with their beliefs declaring they really
know God and reality, and call those believers talking about mature walking in Holiness as
evil hypocrites, and if they have the power, kill us and persecute us. So it has always
been the same from the time man walked on this earth.
People who believe they have arrived at communion with God already, have no
need for purity, holiness, righteousness in their lives.
As one member said to me, they pray for people, God answers their prayers, they are doing
good things, so they do not need purity or holiness.
But in truth as God empowers His people through the Holy Spirit and the cross, these rebellious
people are irrelevant. All we are called to do is proclaim His word and stand by Him.
Until the coming of judgement these people will stick with their beliefs declaring they really
know God and reality, and call those believers talking about mature walking in Holiness as
evil hypocrites, and if they have the power, kill us and persecute us. So it has always
been the same from the time man walked on this earth.
Can you clarify? I mean I know we don't have to follow every law for salvation, but the way you say "we are not under the law", do you mean we can just do what we want now? It's been my experience that once I was reborn and indwelt by the Holy Spirit I WANT to follow the law now, not out of fear or guilt, but out of trust, knowledge, and overwhelming gratitude, to say nothing of the fact the God has made clear to me that following His laws will always lead to live and good, while breaking them leads to hurt and death.
I understand what you mean really by us not being under the law as far as obtaining salvation, of course it's by grace through faith alone, in Christ alone, but I think the change that happens at salvation should not be downplayed or made seem optional. For the believer with their eyes open I agree 100%, but for the unsaved or the false convert this may be misleading. It helped keep me from God for years, I knew I was saved yet I was NOT and it was evident from the lack of any kind of change. The hard part is getting across the point that it is not by our own power we change, God changes us and gets ALL credit and glory for doing so. If there is no change then it is big evidence it was a false conversion. Anyone that says you can have an honest and true experience with the one and only Creator of the universe, have your eyes open and be "made new", then go on to show no change in lifestyle at all, and continue on just like before, I would disagree with and even go as far as to say that's not possible.
So as a brother in Christ and having eyes to see I do agree 100% with you, but I just think the change in someone who has been indwelt by God, has been way to downplayed honestly, and can be misleading to the unbeliever and especially to the false convert.
I understand what you mean really by us not being under the law as far as obtaining salvation, of course it's by grace through faith alone, in Christ alone, but I think the change that happens at salvation should not be downplayed or made seem optional. For the believer with their eyes open I agree 100%, but for the unsaved or the false convert this may be misleading. It helped keep me from God for years, I knew I was saved yet I was NOT and it was evident from the lack of any kind of change. The hard part is getting across the point that it is not by our own power we change, God changes us and gets ALL credit and glory for doing so. If there is no change then it is big evidence it was a false conversion. Anyone that says you can have an honest and true experience with the one and only Creator of the universe, have your eyes open and be "made new", then go on to show no change in lifestyle at all, and continue on just like before, I would disagree with and even go as far as to say that's not possible.
So as a brother in Christ and having eyes to see I do agree 100% with you, but I just think the change in someone who has been indwelt by God, has been way to downplayed honestly, and can be misleading to the unbeliever and especially to the false convert.
"I already now am everthing I need to be"
"I no longer need to repent"
"God no longer holds me accountable for my sins"
"God no longer convicts me of sin or righteousness."
"All future sin is forgiven". "All" meaning "all"..... sins I love to do..... premeditated sins..... I no longer have to "beat my body into subjection" like Paul teaches. Obeying the law of Christ is simply "believing in Jesus", not obeying His commands.
"We don't commit repetitious sins, that's not possible once Jesus comes in".
So what do you call that activity we see every day on CC?
Even faith is no longer required after conversion.
After conversion, one cannot be lost, so actually nothing else is ever required. If this isn't so, then they could lose their salvation.
All of this has been in place since 1997 (Joseph Prince said God showed him).
Technically, that would mean those who died before 1997, with exception to the OSAS'ers, died in vain, never having the "truth" to begin with, being legalists.
They have already said that "legalists" aren't going to Heaven.
"Legalists" are those that teach one must walk in obedience to the New Testament, with their obedience proving their faith, and live by faith the rest of their lives. (nutshell version)
These people really believe this..... just ask them. Some will deny or excuse away a few, but the majority does believe it.
They prove they believe it by literally arguing over every part of it. They are absolutely angry if you disagree.
They have in the past used lies, straw man arguments, character assassination, mind games, emotionally hurt people, destroyed reputations, ganged up on individuals, name calling, judging before knowing the facts, some even cussing, and other such methods to win their arguments.
But that's okay, their future sins are forgiven, right?
We're supposed to forgive them every time they purposely try to attack us..... we read that in a previous thread.
Annnnnd..... they're supposed to forgive us if we offend them..... aren't they?
After all, they're the complete ones who need nothing. They're supposed to do the "mature, christian thing", right?
I suppose their fruits have been telling us that all along.
"I no longer need to repent"
"God no longer holds me accountable for my sins"
"God no longer convicts me of sin or righteousness."
"All future sin is forgiven". "All" meaning "all"..... sins I love to do..... premeditated sins..... I no longer have to "beat my body into subjection" like Paul teaches. Obeying the law of Christ is simply "believing in Jesus", not obeying His commands.
"We don't commit repetitious sins, that's not possible once Jesus comes in".
So what do you call that activity we see every day on CC?
Even faith is no longer required after conversion.
After conversion, one cannot be lost, so actually nothing else is ever required. If this isn't so, then they could lose their salvation.
All of this has been in place since 1997 (Joseph Prince said God showed him).
Technically, that would mean those who died before 1997, with exception to the OSAS'ers, died in vain, never having the "truth" to begin with, being legalists.
They have already said that "legalists" aren't going to Heaven.
"Legalists" are those that teach one must walk in obedience to the New Testament, with their obedience proving their faith, and live by faith the rest of their lives. (nutshell version)
These people really believe this..... just ask them. Some will deny or excuse away a few, but the majority does believe it.
They prove they believe it by literally arguing over every part of it. They are absolutely angry if you disagree.
They have in the past used lies, straw man arguments, character assassination, mind games, emotionally hurt people, destroyed reputations, ganged up on individuals, name calling, judging before knowing the facts, some even cussing, and other such methods to win their arguments.
But that's okay, their future sins are forgiven, right?
We're supposed to forgive them every time they purposely try to attack us..... we read that in a previous thread.
Annnnnd..... they're supposed to forgive us if we offend them..... aren't they?
After all, they're the complete ones who need nothing. They're supposed to do the "mature, christian thing", right?
I suppose their fruits have been telling us that all along.
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"I already now am everthing I need to be"
"I no longer need to repent"
"God no longer holds me accountable for my sins"
"God no longer convicts me of sin or righteousness."
"All future sin is forgiven". "All" meaning "all"..... sins I love to do..... premeditated sins..... I no longer have to "beat my body into subjection" like Paul teaches. Obeying the law of Christ is simply "believing in Jesus", not obeying His commands.
"We don't commit repetitious sins, that's not possible once Jesus comes in".
So what do you call that activity we see every day on CC?
Even faith is no longer required after conversion.
After conversion, one cannot be lost, so actually nothing else is ever required. If this isn't so, then they could lose their salvation.
All of this has been in place since 1997 (Joseph Prince said God showed him).
Technically, that would mean those who died before 1997, with exception to the OSAS'ers, died in vain, never having the "truth" to begin with, being legalists.
They have already said that "legalists" aren't going to Heaven.
"Legalists" are those that teach one must walk in obedience to the New Testament, with their obedience proving their faith, and live by faith the rest of their lives. (nutshell version)
These people really believe this..... just ask them. Some will deny or excuse away a few, but the majority does believe it.
They prove they believe it by literally arguing over every part of it. They are absolutely angry if you disagree.
They have in the past used lies, straw man arguments, character assassination, mind games, emotionally hurt people, destroyed reputations, ganged up on individuals, name calling, judging before knowing the facts, some even cussing, and other such methods to win their arguments.
But that's okay, their future sins are forgiven, right?
We're supposed to forgive them every time they purposely try to attack us..... we read that in a previous thread.
Annnnnd..... they're supposed to forgive us if we offend them..... aren't they?
After all, they're the complete ones who need nothing. They're supposed to do the "mature, christian thing", right?
I suppose their fruits have been telling us that all along.
"I no longer need to repent"
"God no longer holds me accountable for my sins"
"God no longer convicts me of sin or righteousness."
"All future sin is forgiven". "All" meaning "all"..... sins I love to do..... premeditated sins..... I no longer have to "beat my body into subjection" like Paul teaches. Obeying the law of Christ is simply "believing in Jesus", not obeying His commands.
"We don't commit repetitious sins, that's not possible once Jesus comes in".
So what do you call that activity we see every day on CC?
Even faith is no longer required after conversion.
After conversion, one cannot be lost, so actually nothing else is ever required. If this isn't so, then they could lose their salvation.
All of this has been in place since 1997 (Joseph Prince said God showed him).
Technically, that would mean those who died before 1997, with exception to the OSAS'ers, died in vain, never having the "truth" to begin with, being legalists.
They have already said that "legalists" aren't going to Heaven.
"Legalists" are those that teach one must walk in obedience to the New Testament, with their obedience proving their faith, and live by faith the rest of their lives. (nutshell version)
These people really believe this..... just ask them. Some will deny or excuse away a few, but the majority does believe it.
They prove they believe it by literally arguing over every part of it. They are absolutely angry if you disagree.
They have in the past used lies, straw man arguments, character assassination, mind games, emotionally hurt people, destroyed reputations, ganged up on individuals, name calling, judging before knowing the facts, some even cussing, and other such methods to win their arguments.
But that's okay, their future sins are forgiven, right?
We're supposed to forgive them every time they purposely try to attack us..... we read that in a previous thread.
Annnnnd..... they're supposed to forgive us if we offend them..... aren't they?
After all, they're the complete ones who need nothing. They're supposed to do the "mature, christian thing", right?
I suppose their fruits have been telling us that all along.
I'm free FROM sin, not free TO sin, and it's only by His Holy Spirit that I am this way, so all glory to Him, but if you are saying that you can be saved and go live a life of drug dealing and gang banging, with no change at all, then I disagree fully and that person was never saved. The way you word it like "Yeah go ahead and do whatever you want, Jesus died so you can live any ol' way you feel like", is false, misleading, and dangerous.
Am I saying once we are saved fun time is over and now the burden of "acting right" is on, and I'm chain down by Christ. NO, NOT AT ALL!!!! He transformed me, I now desire to do His will, I WANT to live to please my Father, it's TRUE joy, TRUE freedom, the way you say it makes it seem like God has NO power, like I can just say "I accept Jesus", and my "get out of hell free card" was stamped and I can go on living like I was. That doesn't match my experience of the power of the miracle when God took my heart of stone and I was reborn. If you can be ""REBORN""!!!! with no change what's the point, and where is the power in that? I couldn't disagree with you more on this.
Am I saying once we are saved fun time is over and now the burden of "acting right" is on, and I'm chain down by Christ. NO, NOT AT ALL!!!! He transformed me, I now desire to do His will, I WANT to live to please my Father, it's TRUE joy, TRUE freedom, the way you say it makes it seem like God has NO power, like I can just say "I accept Jesus", and my "get out of hell free card" was stamped and I can go on living like I was. That doesn't match my experience of the power of the miracle when God took my heart of stone and I was reborn. If you can be ""REBORN""!!!! with no change what's the point, and where is the power in that? I couldn't disagree with you more on this.
Not sure how that is even a question, and is my main point. If you are TRULY saved you will WANT to follow the law now written on our hearts and not WANT to live in sin. If you say "I'm saved", and do not want to live this way then you may want to examine yourself better. My only point, but so many seem to get nervous suggesting that there WILL be a change.
Interesting proposition.
Some are saying they do not want to sin, yet if there is no morality to define
what sin is, it is easy to do that which you do not define.
A anarchist would agree with this proposition and a lawless sinner likewise.
I had a discussion with one group who said they do not murder people.
No, their murder is execution for treason. And the treason they are allowed
to define personally between them and God. So literally this is justifying
random anarchy and lawlessness for the biggest tyrant in the area. But it sounds
so moral.
This is why saying you follow the law of Christ matters, because this has reference
points and a logic to it. To say you have personal spiritual authority to define anything
for a church member is just a leader becoming a mini god.
This is why some conversations can be very miss-leading.
But some phrases are clear cut. Purity is one, cleanliness, blamelessness.
But these phrases seem so hard, because people rather than embracing them
they run away. Is it because sin clings to them so tightly it is part of who
they identify themselves as, so to get rid of sin would be to destroy themselves.
Now in Gods world, He has declared that is exactly what He will do unless we
hate sin and the world and walk in His ways. Now as a follower of Jesus who
are you going to believe, Jesus or some preacher who does not even know
Christ?
Some are saying they do not want to sin, yet if there is no morality to define
what sin is, it is easy to do that which you do not define.
A anarchist would agree with this proposition and a lawless sinner likewise.
I had a discussion with one group who said they do not murder people.
No, their murder is execution for treason. And the treason they are allowed
to define personally between them and God. So literally this is justifying
random anarchy and lawlessness for the biggest tyrant in the area. But it sounds
so moral.
This is why saying you follow the law of Christ matters, because this has reference
points and a logic to it. To say you have personal spiritual authority to define anything
for a church member is just a leader becoming a mini god.
This is why some conversations can be very miss-leading.
But some phrases are clear cut. Purity is one, cleanliness, blamelessness.
But these phrases seem so hard, because people rather than embracing them
they run away. Is it because sin clings to them so tightly it is part of who
they identify themselves as, so to get rid of sin would be to destroy themselves.
Now in Gods world, He has declared that is exactly what He will do unless we
hate sin and the world and walk in His ways. Now as a follower of Jesus who
are you going to believe, Jesus or some preacher who does not even know
Christ?
I agree wholeheartedly with you on this, but just like I feel we should be careful the way we say how "free" we are in Christ, and how nothing we can do will ever separate us from Him, to the unbeliever and false convert even more. I feel the same is true with the other side, we have to be careful how we word and say these things like "you have to follow His commands", and exactly how we present the order of how these things happen. I could just as easily get overwhelmed trying to keep all these rules before a true conversion, just as easily as I could just stop worrying about them at all together after being told how free I am in Him, and how nothing I could ever do can separate me from Him.
As a reborn, regenerated, Spirit filled, all new creature, follower of our King, I see exactly what you're talking about and agree 100%, I also tend to side with the way you see it honestly, but I can also see the other point of view as well on many things, my biggest concern in all this is the false convert that could be mislead by either side on some things the way I was. I was mislead by the "all you do is repeat this prayer and you are saved forever", "we will always sin", type stuff, so I could say "I'm Christian" then go smoke weed, watch porn, and ignore my whole divided family, all while the world told me what a great dad I was. I was not a Christian then and did NOT know God. I also did not "buckle down" and get my life right, then I was a Christian. I got to a point I KNEW I could no longer "do it" anymore, by "it" I mean life. I knew I couldn't do life on my own anymore, that my way was leading to nothing but death, 33 years of life and I had failed, then broke, then I quit. That's when He saved me, overnight. I woke up the next day and could no longer justify wasting so much of my day playing video games, I could no longer justify getting a quick cheap thrill watching someones daughter/mother/wife/sister doing degrading things for money. I was new.
I could no longer do these things because of His power, not mine. This is where the biggest disconnect in this "debate" is. Yes we will follow His commands, but only by His power can we even do so. Yes we have a freedom in Christ impossible to get any other way, but His Spirit empowers us and guides us to all truth, and will lead us to follow His commands, something we can't do in our fallen state. Honestly I wish we could spend a bit more time coming together in Christ and getting to know each other better, learning how we have each come to the conclusions we have and why, rather than just trying to "teach" each other from across the room. I think the first option would be much more likely to open eyes to truth than the second, I see a LOT of "teaching" here, endlessly, and very rarely is a mind changed. There's just not enough questions to each other in my opinion. Just my thoughts, I hope you ALL have a very blessed day.
As a reborn, regenerated, Spirit filled, all new creature, follower of our King, I see exactly what you're talking about and agree 100%, I also tend to side with the way you see it honestly, but I can also see the other point of view as well on many things, my biggest concern in all this is the false convert that could be mislead by either side on some things the way I was. I was mislead by the "all you do is repeat this prayer and you are saved forever", "we will always sin", type stuff, so I could say "I'm Christian" then go smoke weed, watch porn, and ignore my whole divided family, all while the world told me what a great dad I was. I was not a Christian then and did NOT know God. I also did not "buckle down" and get my life right, then I was a Christian. I got to a point I KNEW I could no longer "do it" anymore, by "it" I mean life. I knew I couldn't do life on my own anymore, that my way was leading to nothing but death, 33 years of life and I had failed, then broke, then I quit. That's when He saved me, overnight. I woke up the next day and could no longer justify wasting so much of my day playing video games, I could no longer justify getting a quick cheap thrill watching someones daughter/mother/wife/sister doing degrading things for money. I was new.
I could no longer do these things because of His power, not mine. This is where the biggest disconnect in this "debate" is. Yes we will follow His commands, but only by His power can we even do so. Yes we have a freedom in Christ impossible to get any other way, but His Spirit empowers us and guides us to all truth, and will lead us to follow His commands, something we can't do in our fallen state. Honestly I wish we could spend a bit more time coming together in Christ and getting to know each other better, learning how we have each come to the conclusions we have and why, rather than just trying to "teach" each other from across the room. I think the first option would be much more likely to open eyes to truth than the second, I see a LOT of "teaching" here, endlessly, and very rarely is a mind changed. There's just not enough questions to each other in my opinion. Just my thoughts, I hope you ALL have a very blessed day.
I have come to see the repetition of g7 and others is because relationship with God
is not their model. Their model is denial of consequences while not dealing with the root
cause, so stay frozen in their conversation.
Paul in Ephesians talks about leaving the world behind and walking in things of love.
It is a reality.
Over the past months I have come to see if your heart is freed, love is met, loneliness
and hurt healed and resolved, Jesus reigning with us on the throne is our life.
Everything springs from this resolution. Purity, holiness, love. If we have forgiven people
and really know them and love them, we adjust and care. And once we love God from the heart
we are slaves to the law of Christ, because this is the law of love and care.
But what I read and see, is something very different, lenses, interpretation, fear of the word
and reinterpretation that takes away guilt for failure and sin, and says this is the expected life
of the believer. Now I have had long conversations where selfishness is evil or doing things
for self is evil, and everything gets hyper legalistic.
But then I talked about purity, the list of impure things people do, and rather than people saying
no that is simple, I am not involved in this, just constant accusation I am lying that impurity is
not an issue. So truly the basics of the heart people are failing at but too scared to admit it
and go to Christ in an open broken way. And so the argument repeats in their mind, because
nothing progresses, it is just this defeat.
But we know in our hearts Christ the overcomer. But many do not know this.
Are they prepared to admit this to themselves and others though?
is not their model. Their model is denial of consequences while not dealing with the root
cause, so stay frozen in their conversation.
Paul in Ephesians talks about leaving the world behind and walking in things of love.
It is a reality.
Over the past months I have come to see if your heart is freed, love is met, loneliness
and hurt healed and resolved, Jesus reigning with us on the throne is our life.
Everything springs from this resolution. Purity, holiness, love. If we have forgiven people
and really know them and love them, we adjust and care. And once we love God from the heart
we are slaves to the law of Christ, because this is the law of love and care.
But what I read and see, is something very different, lenses, interpretation, fear of the word
and reinterpretation that takes away guilt for failure and sin, and says this is the expected life
of the believer. Now I have had long conversations where selfishness is evil or doing things
for self is evil, and everything gets hyper legalistic.
But then I talked about purity, the list of impure things people do, and rather than people saying
no that is simple, I am not involved in this, just constant accusation I am lying that impurity is
not an issue. So truly the basics of the heart people are failing at but too scared to admit it
and go to Christ in an open broken way. And so the argument repeats in their mind, because
nothing progresses, it is just this defeat.
But we know in our hearts Christ the overcomer. But many do not know this.
Are they prepared to admit this to themselves and others though?