Jeremiah 18:7-10 "The instant I speak concerning a nation and concerning a kingdom, to pluck up, to pull down, and to destroy it if that nation against whom I have spoken turns from its evil, I will relent of the disaster that I thought to bring upon it. And the instant I speak concerning a nation and concerning a kingdom, to build and to it, it does evil in My sight so that it does not obey My voice, then I will relent concerning the good with which I said I would benefit it.
Does God Foreknow People, or Events, or Both? Which does Romans 8:28-30 refer to?
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Jeremiah 18:7-10 "The instant I speak concerning a nation and concerning a kingdom, to pluck up, to pull down, and to destroy it if that nation against whom I have spoken turns from its evil, I will relent of the disaster that I thought to bring upon it. And the instant I speak concerning a nation and concerning a kingdom, to build and to it, it does evil in My sight so that it does not obey My voice, then I will relent concerning the good with which I said I would benefit it.
An interesting discussion, mostly! Except for one paranoid and biblically ignorant person. (I'm not talking Arminians!) And lots of good verses! So, for once, I am not going to add any Scripture verses. Instead, I just want to talk about my salvation experience, which 37 years later remains engraved on my heart and brain, like it just happened.
God was after me for a long time. There was a revival where I lived and people got saved everywhere. But I never really heard the full gospel, until God was ready for me to hear it. And that is when he changed my heart.
I know for a fact, that I never said a sinner's prayer, nor used any nonsense "free will" (not in the bible) to decide I was saved. I had a block a mile deep for that sort of thing. Yet, in spite of that, God reached down, and told me (after my future husband told me about repentance!) that he was God and I would serve him. And to believe and study the Bible. And of course, to repent of my sins!
It was the sovereign and amazing grace of God that saved me. Then, we started going to Arminian churches. I learned all the unbiblical nonsense about sinner's prayer and "accepting" Christ. (Maybe "received" him? John 1:12) But I was always uncomfortable, because I knew God saved me, and then I repented. God changed me so that I could make that decision.
I believe it was something that held me back. Being told that a wrong soteriological viewpoint, when that is simply not what happened to me. Well, 20 years later, God led me away from Arminian churches. But still, the emphasis on an altar call and free will. And perhaps an altar call is when God reached down and regenerated some people and they were saved, believed, repented, etc. But again, I never went through that.
In seminary, I learned about different viewpoints, but the Southern Baptists were still pretty stuck on them winning souls, not God. Ok, not all of them. I've met some amazing missionaries, who totally acknowledge God's work in saving people. But, I never actually read a whole book on Reformed theology, although I actually have some Reformed Systematic Theologies, which we read as part of theology, to read it first hand from Reformed theologians what they believed. But I never read the whole book! Which maybe is ok, since I focused on the Bible instead!
But it was people on here who recommended some good books, which I read to find out the whole story. I had a number of objections to the whole Reformed package, although I certainly wasn't Arminian, and technically never had been. So I read a few books by Reformed theologians, and what a surprise! Not only were my objections answered, it turned out that what I believed, Reformed theologians believed. I had been hearing and reading second hand material, and I got bad information. It was pretty exciting to read about what Reformers really believe, and realize it was actually what I believed, just from reading the Bible and knowing God.
So, I know my experience is certainly not on par with Scripture. But I do feel many people in this thread are creating straw men about Reformed theology, and yes, depending on their traditions in which they have been raised, instead of the Bible, in context, and the WHOLE bible, not just a few out of context verses, combined with hearing Arminianism in church every Sunday, week after week, year after year and decade after decade.
I wish people would read a few books by Reformed believers to find out what they believe. And try and drop your traditions and consider what is being said. As for me, God is totally sovereign. Any other kind of God is not worth serving.
God is in control! That is why I know God saved me, and I did not save myself. (Oops! I hope that is not too strong, but Arminianism at its best is human beings saving themselves!)
God was after me for a long time. There was a revival where I lived and people got saved everywhere. But I never really heard the full gospel, until God was ready for me to hear it. And that is when he changed my heart.
I know for a fact, that I never said a sinner's prayer, nor used any nonsense "free will" (not in the bible) to decide I was saved. I had a block a mile deep for that sort of thing. Yet, in spite of that, God reached down, and told me (after my future husband told me about repentance!) that he was God and I would serve him. And to believe and study the Bible. And of course, to repent of my sins!
It was the sovereign and amazing grace of God that saved me. Then, we started going to Arminian churches. I learned all the unbiblical nonsense about sinner's prayer and "accepting" Christ. (Maybe "received" him? John 1:12) But I was always uncomfortable, because I knew God saved me, and then I repented. God changed me so that I could make that decision.
I believe it was something that held me back. Being told that a wrong soteriological viewpoint, when that is simply not what happened to me. Well, 20 years later, God led me away from Arminian churches. But still, the emphasis on an altar call and free will. And perhaps an altar call is when God reached down and regenerated some people and they were saved, believed, repented, etc. But again, I never went through that.
In seminary, I learned about different viewpoints, but the Southern Baptists were still pretty stuck on them winning souls, not God. Ok, not all of them. I've met some amazing missionaries, who totally acknowledge God's work in saving people. But, I never actually read a whole book on Reformed theology, although I actually have some Reformed Systematic Theologies, which we read as part of theology, to read it first hand from Reformed theologians what they believed. But I never read the whole book! Which maybe is ok, since I focused on the Bible instead!
But it was people on here who recommended some good books, which I read to find out the whole story. I had a number of objections to the whole Reformed package, although I certainly wasn't Arminian, and technically never had been. So I read a few books by Reformed theologians, and what a surprise! Not only were my objections answered, it turned out that what I believed, Reformed theologians believed. I had been hearing and reading second hand material, and I got bad information. It was pretty exciting to read about what Reformers really believe, and realize it was actually what I believed, just from reading the Bible and knowing God.
So, I know my experience is certainly not on par with Scripture. But I do feel many people in this thread are creating straw men about Reformed theology, and yes, depending on their traditions in which they have been raised, instead of the Bible, in context, and the WHOLE bible, not just a few out of context verses, combined with hearing Arminianism in church every Sunday, week after week, year after year and decade after decade.
I wish people would read a few books by Reformed believers to find out what they believe. And try and drop your traditions and consider what is being said. As for me, God is totally sovereign. Any other kind of God is not worth serving.
God is in control! That is why I know God saved me, and I did not save myself. (Oops! I hope that is not too strong, but Arminianism at its best is human beings saving themselves!)
This is a bit long but I needed to get all of it posted so we can both know what I saying. This helped me understand somethings.
First I want to thank you because I've changed or more knowledge has been given to me, about predestination, thanks again. I needed to quote this post to answer your response to the last post, so you can help me understand what you are saying, because I think we might be saying the same thing from a different angle. But first I need to ask how you came up with what you're saying about verse 30. Because verse 30 is not saying what you typed out, here's what it says. "Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.” Verse 28, “according to His purpose”, not according too faith, there is nothing in verses 28-30 about our faith it’s all about God working in us or on us
. The word work in verse 28, “all things work together”, can read co-operate. Which could be giving us the idea that we co-operate in our salvation with God, but it’s not us who takes the lead it’s God.
Which lines up with Philippians 2:12-13, lots of people use 12 to prove a point on how you need to work for your salvation, but it’s God working in us. The word work in verse 13, could be translated “active”. 13 “For it is God who works (is active) in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure”.
Back to Romans, the word moreover can translate, as a further matter, it does not indicate anything about faith in verses 28-30. The context of them starts in verse 28, of what’s going to be said. "to those whom are the called according to His purpose”, is how 28 ends. Verse 29 is going to expound on that, "For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to beconformed to the image of His Son.
You are right about our inheritance, what are we hiers of, we are hiers to Christ's glorified body, He is firstborn of the resurrection. We are predestined to glorification, yes. Then the Spirit give Paul the sequence of that glorification from start to finish. Saying, as a further matter, then he gives us the sequence of the salvation of the predestined. All done by Him, the predestining, the calling to salvation, the justifying, the glorifying, all for the ones He foreknow to inherit our celestial body of which Christ is the firstborn. Paul gave us insight on this in I Corinthians 15:49 “And as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly Man.”
Where I think we agree is on faith, it is part of our salvation, we need faith to be justified so that our sins are forgiven, which is repentance. Here’s where I think we disagree. You believe that faith is the beginning of our salvation, that faith happens before you are born again. I believe it comes after we are made alive/born again. But not really, here’s why, I see the Scriptures saying God’s grace saves us/ make us alive, yet so does our faith/believing and repentance. Without being again, we can not see the need for faith, believing, repenting or being baptized.
John 3:3 “Jesus answered and said to him, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.”
If you can’t see the kingdom of God, you can’t see the reason for faith, believing, repenting or baptism, because the Spirit has not made you alive with Christ, so you can’t see the need for those things.
Once we are born again, our faith, justifies us, by repenting, faith and repentance are in the same act. Look at the sequence in Ephesians 2:4-10.
“But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6 and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7 that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.”
Paul says, we are saved by grace, not faith, faith is a merit, which is translated, work. To reaffirm that, Paul adds not by works(merits/faith). Because if faith is first then it is no longer grace, your salvation is the payment of your merit of faith. Paul also says, not of yourself and you are the one that has to have faith. You have faith because you agree with God that you have sin and need a Savior, which is repenting. Faith justifies us, so that our sins can not be counted against us again, other wise it would be double jeopardy, faith and sanctification is our walk with Christ. I believe these things are monergistic, it all occurs at the same time, here’s why I think that. Romans 12:3 “For I say, through the grace given to me, to everyone who is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think, but to think soberly, as God has dealt to each one a measure of faith.”
God give grace and a measure of faith, so even our faith is from God, not of us. Which would mean God wouldn’t need to see anyones faith in the future to save them, because He’s the one who gave it to them. Why because we hate God and are war with Him.
Read Romans 3:10-18 tells us how we hated God, do not seek Him and we’re no righteous. Of course if we read in Romans 8:5-8, it has the same idea, we can not please God, we need the Spirit to make us alive, because we hate God.
“For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. 6 For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be. 8 So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God.
That’s how the Scriptures have reveled it to me, God is the beginner of our faith and the finisher. Hebrews 12:2 “looking unto Jesus, the author and finisher of our faith, who for the joy that was set before Him endured the cross, despising the shame, and has sat down at the right hand of the throne of God.”
Always remembering John 1:12-13 “But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name: 13 who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.”
Our salvation is all God, but we have to co-operate with Him working in us.
First I want to thank you because I've changed or more knowledge has been given to me, about predestination, thanks again. I needed to quote this post to answer your response to the last post, so you can help me understand what you are saying, because I think we might be saying the same thing from a different angle. But first I need to ask how you came up with what you're saying about verse 30. Because verse 30 is not saying what you typed out, here's what it says. "Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.” Verse 28, “according to His purpose”, not according too faith, there is nothing in verses 28-30 about our faith it’s all about God working in us or on us
. The word work in verse 28, “all things work together”, can read co-operate. Which could be giving us the idea that we co-operate in our salvation with God, but it’s not us who takes the lead it’s God. Which lines up with Philippians 2:12-13, lots of people use 12 to prove a point on how you need to work for your salvation, but it’s God working in us. The word work in verse 13, could be translated “active”. 13 “For it is God who works (is active) in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure”.
Back to Romans, the word moreover can translate, as a further matter, it does not indicate anything about faith in verses 28-30. The context of them starts in verse 28, of what’s going to be said. "to those whom are the called according to His purpose”, is how 28 ends. Verse 29 is going to expound on that, "For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to beconformed to the image of His Son.
You are right about our inheritance, what are we hiers of, we are hiers to Christ's glorified body, He is firstborn of the resurrection. We are predestined to glorification, yes. Then the Spirit give Paul the sequence of that glorification from start to finish. Saying, as a further matter, then he gives us the sequence of the salvation of the predestined. All done by Him, the predestining, the calling to salvation, the justifying, the glorifying, all for the ones He foreknow to inherit our celestial body of which Christ is the firstborn. Paul gave us insight on this in I Corinthians 15:49 “And as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly Man.”
Where I think we agree is on faith, it is part of our salvation, we need faith to be justified so that our sins are forgiven, which is repentance. Here’s where I think we disagree. You believe that faith is the beginning of our salvation, that faith happens before you are born again. I believe it comes after we are made alive/born again. But not really, here’s why, I see the Scriptures saying God’s grace saves us/ make us alive, yet so does our faith/believing and repentance. Without being again, we can not see the need for faith, believing, repenting or being baptized.
John 3:3 “Jesus answered and said to him, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.”
If you can’t see the kingdom of God, you can’t see the reason for faith, believing, repenting or baptism, because the Spirit has not made you alive with Christ, so you can’t see the need for those things.
Once we are born again, our faith, justifies us, by repenting, faith and repentance are in the same act. Look at the sequence in Ephesians 2:4-10.
“But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6 and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7 that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.”
Paul says, we are saved by grace, not faith, faith is a merit, which is translated, work. To reaffirm that, Paul adds not by works(merits/faith). Because if faith is first then it is no longer grace, your salvation is the payment of your merit of faith. Paul also says, not of yourself and you are the one that has to have faith. You have faith because you agree with God that you have sin and need a Savior, which is repenting. Faith justifies us, so that our sins can not be counted against us again, other wise it would be double jeopardy, faith and sanctification is our walk with Christ. I believe these things are monergistic, it all occurs at the same time, here’s why I think that. Romans 12:3 “For I say, through the grace given to me, to everyone who is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think, but to think soberly, as God has dealt to each one a measure of faith.”
God give grace and a measure of faith, so even our faith is from God, not of us. Which would mean God wouldn’t need to see anyones faith in the future to save them, because He’s the one who gave it to them. Why because we hate God and are war with Him.
Read Romans 3:10-18 tells us how we hated God, do not seek Him and we’re no righteous. Of course if we read in Romans 8:5-8, it has the same idea, we can not please God, we need the Spirit to make us alive, because we hate God.
“For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. 6 For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be. 8 So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God.
That’s how the Scriptures have reveled it to me, God is the beginner of our faith and the finisher. Hebrews 12:2 “looking unto Jesus, the author and finisher of our faith, who for the joy that was set before Him endured the cross, despising the shame, and has sat down at the right hand of the throne of God.”
Always remembering John 1:12-13 “But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name: 13 who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.”
Our salvation is all God, but we have to co-operate with Him working in us.
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- This is a bit long but I needed to get all of it posted so we can both know what I saying. This helped me understand somethings.
First I want to thank you because I've changed or more knowledge has been given to me, about predestination, thanks again. I needed to quote this post to answer your response to the last post, so you can help me understand what you are saying, because I think we might be saying the same thing from a different angle. But first I need to ask how you came up with what you're saying about verse 30. Because verse 30 is not saying what you typed out, here's what it says. "Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.” Verse 28, “according to His purpose”, not according too faith, there is nothing in verses 28-30 about our faith it’s all about God working in us or on us . The word work in verse 28, “all things work together”, can read co-operate. Which could be giving us the idea that we co-operate in our salvation with God, but it’s not us who takes the lead it’s God.
Which lines up with Philippians 2:12-13, lots of people use 12 to prove a point on how you need to work for your salvation, but it’s God working in us. The word work in verse 13, could be translated “active”. 13 “For it is God who works (is active) in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure”.
Back to Romans, the word moreover can translate, as a further matter, it does not indicate anything about faith in verses 28-30. The context of them starts in verse 28, of what’s going to be said. "to those whom are the called according to His purpose”, is how 28 ends. Verse 29 is going to expound on that, "For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to beconformed to the image of His Son.
You are right about our inheritance, what are we hiers of, we are hiers to Christ's glorified body, He is firstborn of the resurrection. We are predestined to glorification, yes. Then the Spirit give Paul the sequence of that glorification from start to finish. Saying, as a further matter, then he gives us the sequence of the salvation of the predestined. All done by Him, the predestining, the calling to salvation, the justifying, the glorifying, all for the ones He foreknow to inherit our celestial body of which Christ is the firstborn. Paul gave us insight on this in I Corinthians 15:49 “And as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly Man.”
Where I think we agree is on faith, it is part of our salvation, we need faith to be justified so that our sins are forgiven, which is repentance. Here’s where I think we disagree. You believe that faith is the beginning of our salvation, that faith happens before you are born again. I believe it comes after we are made alive/born again. But not really, here’s why, I see the Scriptures saying God’s grace saves us/ make us alive, yet so does our faith/believing and repentance. Without being again, we can not see the need for faith, believing, repenting or being baptized.
John 3:3 “Jesus answered and said to him, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.”
If you can’t see the kingdom of God, you can’t see the reason for faith, believing, repenting or baptism, because the Spirit has not made you alive with Christ, so you can’t see the need for those things.
Once we are born again, our faith, justifies us, by repenting, faith and repentance are in the same act. Look at the sequence in Ephesians 2:4-10.
“But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6 and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7 that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.”
Paul says, we are saved by grace, not faith, faith is a merit, which is translated, work. To reaffirm that, Paul adds not by works(merits/faith). Because if faith is first then it is no longer grace, your salvation is the payment of your merit of faith. Paul also says, not of yourself and you are the one that has to have faith. You have faith because you agree with God that you have sin and need a Savior, which is repenting. Faith justifies us, so that our sins can not be counted against us again, other wise it would be double jeopardy, faith and sanctification is our walk with Christ. I believe these things are monergistic, it all occurs at the same time, here’s why I think that. Romans 12:3 “For I say, through the grace given to me, to everyone who is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think, but to think soberly, as God has dealt to each one a measure of faith.”
God give grace and a measure of faith, so even our faith is from God, not of us. Which would mean God wouldn’t need to see anyones faith in the future to save them, because He’s the one who gave it to them. Why because we hate God and are war with Him.
Read Romans 3:10-18 tells us how we hated God, do not seek Him and we’re no righteous. Of course if we read in Romans 8:5-8, it has the same idea, we can not please God, we need the Spirit to make us alive, because we hate God.
“For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. 6 For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be. 8 So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God.
That’s how the Scriptures have reveled it to me, God is the beginner of our faith and the finisher. Hebrews 12:2 “looking unto Jesus, the author and finisher of our faith, who for the joy that was set before Him endured the cross, despising the shame, and has sat down at the right hand of the throne of God.”
Always remembering John 1:12-13 “But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name: 13 who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.”
Our salvation is all God, but we have to co-operate with Him working in us.
(for those who may not be able to see.....)
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This is a bit long but I needed to get all of it posted so we can both know what I saying. This helped me understand somethings.
First I want to thank you because I've changed or more knowledge has been given to me, about predestination, thanks again. I needed to quote this post to answer your response to the last post, so you can help me understand what you are saying, because I think we might be saying the same thing from a different angle. But first I need to ask how you came up with what you're saying about verse 30. Because verse 30 is not saying what you typed out, here's what it says. "Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.” Verse 28, “according to His purpose”, not according too faith, there is nothing in verses 28-30 about our faith it’s all about God working in us or on us . The word work in verse 28, “all things work together”, can read co-operate. Which could be giving us the idea that we co-operate in our salvation with God, but it’s not us who takes the lead it’s God.
First I want to thank you because I've changed or more knowledge has been given to me, about predestination, thanks again. I needed to quote this post to answer your response to the last post, so you can help me understand what you are saying, because I think we might be saying the same thing from a different angle. But first I need to ask how you came up with what you're saying about verse 30. Because verse 30 is not saying what you typed out, here's what it says. "Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.” Verse 28, “according to His purpose”, not according too faith, there is nothing in verses 28-30 about our faith it’s all about God working in us or on us
. The word work in verse 28, “all things work together”, can read co-operate. Which could be giving us the idea that we co-operate in our salvation with God, but it’s not us who takes the lead it’s God.
v28 - And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are called according to his purpose. Who are the called? i.e. those who love God What is God's purpose? salvation, eternal life; i.e. for those who love him to be conformed into the image of His Son.
v29 For whom he did foreknow - In actuality God "foreknows" everyone but EVERYONE CALLED does not respond - Thayer's - whom he foreknew to be fit to be conformed to the image of his Son. Who are those that "are fit" - those whom love God, that answer the call - How does one answer the call or the "pulling" of the Holy Spirit? those who love God by believing in his only begotten Son, Jesus Christ - that is faith.
God energizes those who love him to change their desire from those things that are not pleasing to him to those things that are of his good pleasure.
"does not indicate faith"????? . . . . These verses are addressed to those who have faith in Jesus Christ for ONLY those who have faith in Jesus Christ are "those who are called according to his purpose" - his purpose? for us to be conformed to the image of His Son.
We are joint heirs with Christ - i.e. we have inherited everything that Jesus Christ inherited.
One cannot be born again without first believing in the only begotten Son of God. "Believing" is the verb form of "faith" . . . One cannot be born again without hearing the word of God and believing what is written . . . How else to we gain knowledge of God and Jesus Christ in order to be fully persuaded?You can't fully trust in something you know nothing about.
I put the rest on another post - this thing really got LONG!!!!!
Continuation in response to Johnny_B:
We are saved because of God's grace through our faith in Jesus Christ - this salvation does not come of ourselves - this salvation is the gift of God . . . Faith is also a fruit of the Spirit. As we grow and mature in Christ - our faith, i.e. our trust grows and we produce that fruit in our walk.
But one does not receive the "measure of faith" until one believes in the only begotten Son of God, confesses him as Lord and believes God has raised him from the dead - then those who believe are dealt the same measure of faith.
If our faith is from God, not of us - then ALL men will be saved because that is God's desire - "Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth" 1 Timothy 2:4 Will ALL men be saved? No, some will remain stiff-necked and hard-hearted and resist the Holy Spirit.
Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and you shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you: for everyone that ask receives; and he that seeks finds; and to him that knocks it shall be opened.
"Those that are in the flesh cannot please God" - That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. . . . You must be born again.
Jesus Christ the beginning of our faith - confessing him as Lord and believing that God raised him from the dead
Jesus Christ is the finisher of our faith - Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it does not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
But as many as received him - verb - ACTION; to those who believe - verb - ACTION
When we receive him by believing in him - we are born again - I had nothing to do with that new creation, the new man, i.e. spirit that was created in me but I had to believe in him in order to receive him to have the right to become a child of God - at that point God created my inner man - God gave me the gift of salvation.
We are saved because of God's grace through our faith in Jesus Christ - this salvation does not come of ourselves - this salvation is the gift of God . . . Faith is also a fruit of the Spirit. As we grow and mature in Christ - our faith, i.e. our trust grows and we produce that fruit in our walk.
But one does not receive the "measure of faith" until one believes in the only begotten Son of God, confesses him as Lord and believes God has raised him from the dead - then those who believe are dealt the same measure of faith.
If our faith is from God, not of us - then ALL men will be saved because that is God's desire - "Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth" 1 Timothy 2:4 Will ALL men be saved? No, some will remain stiff-necked and hard-hearted and resist the Holy Spirit.
Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and you shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you: for everyone that ask receives; and he that seeks finds; and to him that knocks it shall be opened.
"Those that are in the flesh cannot please God" - That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. . . . You must be born again.
Jesus Christ the beginning of our faith - confessing him as Lord and believing that God raised him from the dead
Jesus Christ is the finisher of our faith - Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it does not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
But as many as received him - verb - ACTION; to those who believe - verb - ACTION
When we receive him by believing in him - we are born again - I had nothing to do with that new creation, the new man, i.e. spirit that was created in me but I had to believe in him in order to receive him to have the right to become a child of God - at that point God created my inner man - God gave me the gift of salvation.
Absolutely! I was going to share that Scripture. This is why Jonah did not want to go preach to Nineveh even the message of coming destruction. Jonah knew that if they actually believed the message was from God, they might repent and cry out to Him, and God in turn would change His mind and not destroy them. Jeremiah is showing God's ways.
The whole question I brought up was: Did God know before hand that Nineveh was going to repent? God had every intention of destroying them in forty days. He declared it. But God also knew that if Nineveh repented, He would repent. God did not lie when He declared He was going to destroy Nineveh. He simply changed His mind based on Nineveh's response to the word of God.
The whole question I brought up was: Did God know before hand that Nineveh was going to repent? God had every intention of destroying them in forty days. He declared it. But God also knew that if Nineveh repented, He would repent. God did not lie when He declared He was going to destroy Nineveh. He simply changed His mind based on Nineveh's response to the word of God.
As a biblical ignorant person, I'll go with Scripture every day of the week over any experience. Scripture is always right. My experiences cannot be trusted. I'll go on believing what Scripture has said in my ignorance...The gospel of Jesus Christ is what brings salvation.
Romans 10
13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!
16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?
17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
Amen to Scripture.
Romans 10
13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!
16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?
17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
Amen to Scripture.
Amen Sis, it sounds like you were giving my testimony, my enlightenment began when I did a study on sin and found that I needed to repent. Which was about 15 years after I said a sinners prayer (not biblical), I realized that but for God and His gracious mercy through the Spirit, I could never have saving faith. But I still had my doubts about Reformed Theology, why, because as you said misinformation, I'm still getting a deeper understanding of God's grace. By posting here it helped me understand Romans 8:29 better, I thought "conformed to the image of His Son" was talking about here on earth, now I realize it's talking about His glorified state. Once I started to view the Bible from this viewpoint, I knew I needed to investigate Reformed Theology (which I'm not one) to know exactly what they taught.
The two books that helped me understand the Bible better, after 10 years in a Pentecostal Church and 8 in a Charismatic Church. Those last 8 years I sat under verse by verse teaching, when it came to the verses that sound like you can lose your salvation, I noticed they were being taught in context, when the election verses came up the teaching was in context, with an added, but. With the verse by verse teaching and an evangelist that came to teach for 5 Sunday night's on the 10 Commandment and how they work in evangelism, that when I did the study in sin, because the study of the 10 Commandments is very convicting, especially when Jesus clarifies them. The judgement of God became very real to me, that's when I asked God to forgive me and that I didn't know how to make myself right with Him and asked for mercy.
Those two books that helped my were, Know the Truth by Bruce Milne, which is lots of Scripture, so you can make your own decision as what to believe, Reformed Theology is explained very well. Then the book, The Christian Life: a doctrinal introduction by Sinclair B. Ferguson, who has become one of my favorite authors. Those two books helped my understand Biblical election, I say that because, I can't believe or agree with all that it takes to be considered, Reformed or Calvinist.
The two books that helped me understand the Bible better, after 10 years in a Pentecostal Church and 8 in a Charismatic Church. Those last 8 years I sat under verse by verse teaching, when it came to the verses that sound like you can lose your salvation, I noticed they were being taught in context, when the election verses came up the teaching was in context, with an added, but. With the verse by verse teaching and an evangelist that came to teach for 5 Sunday night's on the 10 Commandment and how they work in evangelism, that when I did the study in sin, because the study of the 10 Commandments is very convicting, especially when Jesus clarifies them. The judgement of God became very real to me, that's when I asked God to forgive me and that I didn't know how to make myself right with Him and asked for mercy.
Those two books that helped my were, Know the Truth by Bruce Milne, which is lots of Scripture, so you can make your own decision as what to believe, Reformed Theology is explained very well. Then the book, The Christian Life: a doctrinal introduction by Sinclair B. Ferguson, who has become one of my favorite authors. Those two books helped my understand Biblical election, I say that because, I can't believe or agree with all that it takes to be considered, Reformed or Calvinist.
LOL I'm sorry about that, thanks for baring with me.
Okay, using Thayer's translation of the word foreknew, 29 For whom He be fit, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren.
It is still God doing the be fitting, not the persons faith.So we agree there. Strong's translates, proginosko to mean, ordained or foreordained, but which ever way you go, it's God doing it, not the persons faith.
Those who love Him 1 John 4:19 "We love Him because He first loved us."
We believe the same thing, except for who initiates the action of being made alive, God energizes, as you put it, is God causing us to be born again.
Yes it is being addressed to those with faith, but the whole book is, does that make everything it says, about the saints having faith, no. A natural read of 28-30 would not lead anyone to see anything about faith in it, unless they have a preconceived doctrine. Take it to an English Lit. teacher that has not dog in the fight and let them read it and tell you want it means
We don't inherit everything, just to be like Him in His resurrected body. 1 Peter 1:2-5 will clear all of this up or bring more light on, how we are born again, what we inherit, how our faith works and when it all comes together.
"elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, in sanctification of the Spirit, for obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace to you and peace be multiplied.
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! According to his great mercy, he has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,4 to an inheritance that is imperishable, undefiled, and unfading, kept in heaven for you,5 who by God's power are being guarded through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time."
Our election is according to the Father, sanctification by the Spirit, for what, sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ. The Triune God and how He works in our salvation. Now Peter is going to explain what he just wrote to in verse 2 making it clear, that it's the Triune God doing it for you, in you and your part of the deal (for leak of a better word). By His great mercy, the Father caused us (the church not the people in the building, but the called out ones or the elect), to be born again, not our faith, Peter will tell us what our faith is for. We are born again to living Hope, as the KJV translate it, by the resurrection of Jesus, from the dead. Here where Peter explains our inheritance, "imperishable, undefiled, and unfading", our resurrected body or the image of His Son. Kept in heaven for you or seated in heavenly places. Who, we are the who, by the Spirit we are guaranteed to make to the day of redemption or His second coming. How, with the Spirit working in us and our faith in Christ resurrection from the dead.
Peter tell us how valuable our faith is, in verse 7. "sothatthe testedgenuinenessofyourfaith—morepreciousthangoldthatperishesthoughitis testedbyfire—maybefoundtoresultinpraiseandgloryandhonorattherevelationof JesusChrist." Not only does the Spirit guarantee we make it to the day of redemption, our faith does as well. We work together with God after we've been born again. He causes us to be born again, made alive, new creature, regenerated, born of God, born anew, newness of life.
Okay, using Thayer's translation of the word foreknew, 29 For whom He be fit, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren.
It is still God doing the be fitting, not the persons faith.So we agree there. Strong's translates, proginosko to mean, ordained or foreordained, but which ever way you go, it's God doing it, not the persons faith.
Those who love Him 1 John 4:19 "We love Him because He first loved us."
We believe the same thing, except for who initiates the action of being made alive, God energizes, as you put it, is God causing us to be born again.
Yes it is being addressed to those with faith, but the whole book is, does that make everything it says, about the saints having faith, no. A natural read of 28-30 would not lead anyone to see anything about faith in it, unless they have a preconceived doctrine. Take it to an English Lit. teacher that has not dog in the fight and let them read it and tell you want it means
We don't inherit everything, just to be like Him in His resurrected body. 1 Peter 1:2-5 will clear all of this up or bring more light on, how we are born again, what we inherit, how our faith works and when it all comes together.
"elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, in sanctification of the Spirit, for obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace to you and peace be multiplied.
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! According to his great mercy, he has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,4 to an inheritance that is imperishable, undefiled, and unfading, kept in heaven for you,5 who by God's power are being guarded through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time."
Our election is according to the Father, sanctification by the Spirit, for what, sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ. The Triune God and how He works in our salvation. Now Peter is going to explain what he just wrote to in verse 2 making it clear, that it's the Triune God doing it for you, in you and your part of the deal (for leak of a better word). By His great mercy, the Father caused us (the church not the people in the building, but the called out ones or the elect), to be born again, not our faith, Peter will tell us what our faith is for. We are born again to living Hope, as the KJV translate it, by the resurrection of Jesus, from the dead. Here where Peter explains our inheritance, "imperishable, undefiled, and unfading", our resurrected body or the image of His Son. Kept in heaven for you or seated in heavenly places. Who, we are the who, by the Spirit we are guaranteed to make to the day of redemption or His second coming. How, with the Spirit working in us and our faith in Christ resurrection from the dead.
Peter tell us how valuable our faith is, in verse 7. "sothatthe testedgenuinenessofyourfaith—morepreciousthangoldthatperishesthoughitis testedbyfire—maybefoundtoresultinpraiseandgloryandhonorattherevelationof JesusChrist." Not only does the Spirit guarantee we make it to the day of redemption, our faith does as well. We work together with God after we've been born again. He causes us to be born again, made alive, new creature, regenerated, born of God, born anew, newness of life.
Sister we agree, we need faith, we need to receive, we need to repent, all for salvation. So I'm not going to go through this again, we've already talked about these things. The only thing we don't agree on is who start or as you put it energizes us to be born again. This will make it shorter for both of us. Actually as I look up here I see another thing we agree on "God gave em the gift if salvation, that's what I'm saying, it's a gift from God, a gift has no prerequisites to it or it's not a gift. Here's how I interpret believe and receive when I read them, with this always in mind.
John 1:12-13 "But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God,13 who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God."
Any whosoever has this happen, according to the full council of God, it's of God. Where ever I see that people need to repent, have faith it's always with John 3:3 in mind. "Jesus answered him,“Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.”
I use John 1:12-13 and John 3:3 as the context of John 3:16 “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life."
When I read Romans 8:28-30, I have Ephesians 1:3-14 and 2:1-10, I Peter 1:2-5 in mind. When I look at John 3:5, I have Ezekiel 36:25-27, John 17:17, Ephesians 5:26, James 1:18 and I Peter 1:23 in mind.
We believe the same, we disagree on the timing. I do not believe that you don't have to have faith, believe, receive, repent or accept to be saved, it in the Bible.
I would like to share something with you about interpreting word solely by it's meaning, hear me out. Sometimes words are interpreted by the context they are said in or figure of speed they are used in. Take Acts 2:38, it says, "Repent......be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins" At first read you would think that baptism brings remission of sin, then you read I Peter 3:21 and he clarifies baptism, "There is also an antitype which now saves us—baptism (not the removal of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God), through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,"
Baptism is the answer of a good conscience toward God, it's the resurrection of Christ that save us. Which the rest of the Bible tells us and faith justify us, making us in right standing before God. So why did Peter say, "be baptized for the remission of sin", you would translate "for" the same way you would when you say, "Take an aspirin for your headache", for doesn't mean you are taking the aspirin to get a headache, you are taking it because you have a headache. Something that helps me in my studies so I thought I'd share it with you, it's in no way meant to say you don't know how, because we don't know each other so I couldn't make that kind of a judgement. God bless my Sister.
Instead of us going at what we've already went over, can you tell me how you see John 1:12-13 and John 3:3? Because that's really where we more than likely disagree.
John 1:12-13 "But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God,13 who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God."
Any whosoever has this happen, according to the full council of God, it's of God. Where ever I see that people need to repent, have faith it's always with John 3:3 in mind. "Jesus answered him,“Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.”
I use John 1:12-13 and John 3:3 as the context of John 3:16 “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life."
When I read Romans 8:28-30, I have Ephesians 1:3-14 and 2:1-10, I Peter 1:2-5 in mind. When I look at John 3:5, I have Ezekiel 36:25-27, John 17:17, Ephesians 5:26, James 1:18 and I Peter 1:23 in mind.
We believe the same, we disagree on the timing. I do not believe that you don't have to have faith, believe, receive, repent or accept to be saved, it in the Bible.
I would like to share something with you about interpreting word solely by it's meaning, hear me out. Sometimes words are interpreted by the context they are said in or figure of speed they are used in. Take Acts 2:38, it says, "Repent......be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins" At first read you would think that baptism brings remission of sin, then you read I Peter 3:21 and he clarifies baptism, "There is also an antitype which now saves us—baptism (not the removal of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God), through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,"
Baptism is the answer of a good conscience toward God, it's the resurrection of Christ that save us. Which the rest of the Bible tells us and faith justify us, making us in right standing before God. So why did Peter say, "be baptized for the remission of sin", you would translate "for" the same way you would when you say, "Take an aspirin for your headache", for doesn't mean you are taking the aspirin to get a headache, you are taking it because you have a headache. Something that helps me in my studies so I thought I'd share it with you, it's in no way meant to say you don't know how, because we don't know each other so I couldn't make that kind of a judgement. God bless my Sister.
Instead of us going at what we've already went over, can you tell me how you see John 1:12-13 and John 3:3? Because that's really where we more than likely disagree.
What's interesting is God did destroy Nineveh some years later, because of how they treated Israel if I remember right. Jonah knew God was merciful to forgive, here's what he said to God. "I knew that you are a gracious and compassionate God, slow to anger and abounding in love, a God who relents from sending calamity." At that time the Assyrians were a treat to Israel because the Assyrians were set on world domination. Took the ten tribes into captivity, many think that those tribes were lost and that they here or that they are now America. But the Babylonians defeated them and the 10 tribes were brought together with the two tribes. God works it all out for the good of those He loves, of course because He loved them they will love Him. 1 John 4:19 God Bless.
God's sovereign grace is beautiful, I'm so glad He's in charge. God Bless Brother
God's sovereign grace is beautiful, I'm so glad He's in charge. God Bless Brother
hi, pb!
i was hoping you might explain how one believes before one has faith?
and i am genuinely glad to see you.
i was hoping you might explain how one believes before one has faith?
and i am genuinely glad to see you.
Romans 10:14-17 - which has already been quoted basically says just that . . . How shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall the believe in him of whom they have not heard? . . . So then faith (confidence; trust) comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God.
Belief and faith are closely related - Believing being the verb form of the noun - faith. When one believes - thinks a thing to be true, is fully persuaded - then one has the conviction, or trust in the thing in which he has believed resulting in faith. How can we have faith in something that we can't be fully persuaded of or that we believe to be true?
Are you saying that - God energizing me equals God's call upon my heart? Maybe, I am not fully understanding what you are trying to say. It seems you are saying God energizes me - makes me - have faith?
Who are the "elect"? Those who believe in the only begotten Son of God. The result of "belief in the only begotten Son of God" is faith AND becoming part of the "elect" - the RESULT of becoming part of the elect - sanctification, being begotten unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ to an inheritance incorruptible and undefiled being kept by the power of God through faith (faith in Jesus Christ) unto salvation; also resulting in being conformed to the image of his Son, being justified, being made righteous - ALL because of our believing in the only begotten Son of God - confessing him as Lord and believing God raised him from the dead . . . that is what was in God's foreknowledge; that is what was predestined - NOT choosing who will be saved and who will receive damnation. The way I see it, what you are saying is that it is God who makes the choice of who is to be saved and who is to receive damnation? Wouldn't that reflect a God who is a "respecter of persons"?
It seems that it is I who should ask you to bear with me!!!
Who are the "elect"? Those who believe in the only begotten Son of God. The result of "belief in the only begotten Son of God" is faith AND becoming part of the "elect" - the RESULT of becoming part of the elect - sanctification, being begotten unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ to an inheritance incorruptible and undefiled being kept by the power of God through faith (faith in Jesus Christ) unto salvation; also resulting in being conformed to the image of his Son, being justified, being made righteous - ALL because of our believing in the only begotten Son of God - confessing him as Lord and believing God raised him from the dead . . . that is what was in God's foreknowledge; that is what was predestined - NOT choosing who will be saved and who will receive damnation. The way I see it, what you are saying is that it is God who makes the choice of who is to be saved and who is to receive damnation? Wouldn't that reflect a God who is a "respecter of persons"?
It seems that it is I who should ask you to bear with me!!!
We do agree that salvation is a gift - the gift is given through faith - by way of faith. Faith in whom? Jesus Christ . . . I think our difference may be in the definition of believe and faith - To me in order to have faith, you must first believe. I can't have faith; i.e. complete conviction of anything, unless I believe in what is presented; i.e. think something to be true.
What I said above regarding belief in something resulting in faith is exactly what John 1:12,13 is saying . . . I believed in his name therefore receiving him and that gave me the right to become a child of God - being born of God, i.e. born of the Spirit. "Unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God" leads me to John 3:16 - whosoever believes in the only begotten Son of God shall not perish but have eternal life.
I see all these verses as a result of John 3:16. I see John 3:16 as the basis, so to speak. If I don't believe in the only begotten Son of God then I am condemned already . . .
The timing - when I believe on Jesus Christ, at that time - I believe, I repent, I receive - I confess Jesus as Lord and believe God raised him from the dead - I am saved. I have become part of the body of Christ, I am now part of the elect, a daughter of God.
The truth - I have never read Acts 2:38 and understood it to mean "baptism brings about salvation." When I read Acts 2:38 . . . the key is repentance. Repentance is to change one's mind; to change one's mind for the better with abhorrence of one's past sins. I have to realize that I am sick and tired of being sick and tired (just a simple way to put it) and that I need deliverance - From "hearing" - I learn that Jesus Christ shed his blood for the remission of my sins, I learn that if I believe in him I will have eternal life . . . I learn that I can be washed, cleansed from all unrighteousness - I learn that all this comes about IF I believe in the only begotten Son of God, confess him as Lord and believe God raised him from the dead - when I learn all this and I am fully persuaded that it is true - I believe, I receive and I am born of God.
In regard to how I see John 1:12-13 and John 3:3 - I believe I said something earlier in this same post. God bless you also!
He makes/causes us to be born again, so that awe can see and can place your faith in Jesus. That why the hymn amazing grace says, I was blind, but now I see. John 3:3.
The salvation being talked about here in I Peter 1:3-5 is the redemption of our bodies, our inheritance or to be comforted to the image of His Son, as you said (we agree). We know this because it's ready to be revealed in the last time. Where we disagree is on this faith being talked about.This faith take us through to the end, it's not our initial faith that justifies us, it's the faith that sanctifies us in cooperation with God. Philippians 1:13. Faith doesn't make us part of the elect, we have faith because we are the elect. You know the story in Matthew 25 on judgement day Jesus separates the sheep from the goats. Here's the interesting part, Jesus already seen us as sheep before His cruxifixction. John 10:11 "I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep. "He's saying He's going to lay down His life for the sheep." That's why He came, Matthew 1:21 "She will bear a son, and you shall call his name Jesus, for he will save his people from their sins.” These two verse seem to play into the Fathers foreknowledge of the elect, the angel could of said save many people, but it doesn't, His people.
Just a side note, a really nice study to do is read John 10 and Psalms 23 together, I thought it was beautiful.
The salvation being talked about here in I Peter 1:3-5 is the redemption of our bodies, our inheritance or to be comforted to the image of His Son, as you said (we agree). We know this because it's ready to be revealed in the last time. Where we disagree is on this faith being talked about.This faith take us through to the end, it's not our initial faith that justifies us, it's the faith that sanctifies us in cooperation with God. Philippians 1:13. Faith doesn't make us part of the elect, we have faith because we are the elect. You know the story in Matthew 25 on judgement day Jesus separates the sheep from the goats. Here's the interesting part, Jesus already seen us as sheep before His cruxifixction. John 10:11 "I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep. "He's saying He's going to lay down His life for the sheep." That's why He came, Matthew 1:21 "She will bear a son, and you shall call his name Jesus, for he will save his people from their sins.” These two verse seem to play into the Fathers foreknowledge of the elect, the angel could of said save many people, but it doesn't, His people.
Just a side note, a really nice study to do is read John 10 and Psalms 23 together, I thought it was beautiful.