Does God Foreknow People, or Events, or Both? Which does Romans 8:28-30 refer to?

[peacefulbeliever]

He makes/causes us to be born again, so that awe can see and can place your faith in Jesus. That why the hymn amazing grace says, I was blind, but now I see. John 3:3.

The salvation being talked about here in I Peter 1:3-5 is the redemption of our bodies, our inheritance or to be comforted to the image of His Son, as you said (we agree). We know this because it's ready to be revealed in the last time. Where we disagree is on this faith being talked about.This faith take us through to the end, it's not our initial faith that justifies us, it's the faith that sanctifies us in cooperation with God. Philippians 1:13. Faith doesn't make us part of the elect, we have faith because we are the elect. You know the story in Matthew 25 on judgement day Jesus separates the sheep from the goats. Here's the interesting part, Jesus already seen us as sheep before His cruxifixction. John 10:11 "I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep. "He's saying He's going to lay down His life for the sheep." That's why He came, Matthew 1:21 "She will bear a son, and you shall call his name Jesus, for he will save his people from their sins.” These two verse seem to play into the Fathers foreknowledge of the elect, the angel could of said save many people, but it doesn't, His people.

Just a side note, a really nice study to do is read John 10 and Psalms 23 together, I thought it was beautiful.

I'm not saying that salvation and the means by which we are saved were not foreknown or predestined. Jesus was crucified before the foundation of the world . . . was he actually? Nope but the plan was in God's foreknowledge.

I will probably just have to agree to disagree when it comes to God making us born again - Yes, salvation is of God through my belief in Jesus Christ - through faith. IOW - we don't have to do anything but sit back and wait and HOPE rather we will be one that God condemns or one that God elects . . . what a place of insecurity!

And this is his commandment, that we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment. 1 John 3:23

Whosoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . 1 John 5:1a

And this is the record, that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. He that has the Son has life; and he that has not the Son of God has not life. These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that you may KNOW that you have eternal life, and that you may believe on the name of the Son of God. 1 John 5:11-13 . . . scripture is full of verses that say we must believe in Jesus Christ.

 

[oldethennew]

for some, it almost seems as if FAITH is implanted in what the world calls, 'dna'...lol

for some of us, definitely 'not-bragging-here', just sharing, 'Jesus bestows
'loving-precious-gifts', apparently at His discrection...

 

[Johnny_B]

We do agree that salvation is a gift - the gift is given through faith - by way of faith. Faith in whom? Jesus Christ . . . I think our difference may be in the definition of believe and faith - To me in order to have faith, you must first believe. I can't have faith; i.e. complete conviction of anything, unless I believe in what is presented; i.e. think something to be true.

We believe the same about faith, we disagree on we get it. I say it's in response of God birthing us, you say it causes us to be birthed by God, right?

What I said above regarding belief in something resulting in faith is exactly what John 1:12,13 is saying . . . I believed in his name therefore receiving him and that gave me the right to become a child of God - being born of God, i.e. born of the Spirit. "Unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God" leads me to John 3:16 - whosoever believes in the only begotten Son of God shall not perish but have eternal life.

"who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God." By causing us to be born again, not our will, not my will or our parents will, which lines up with Ephesians 2:8-9 "For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing(faith); it is the gift of God(grace),9 not a result of works(sacraments), so that no one may boast(it was my faith)."

I see all these verses as a result of John 3:16. I see John 3:16 as the basis, so to speak. If I don't believe in the only begotten Son of God then I am condemned already . . .

The timing - when I believe on Jesus Christ, at that time - I believe, I repent, I receive - I confess Jesus as Lord and believe God raised him from the dead - I am saved. I have become part of the body of Christ, I am now part of the elect, a daughter of God.

Yes, if we don't believe we are condemned already. This is why there is no double election, man is condemned already. That's why we need, "God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us(the Church),5 even when we were dead in our trespasses(condemned already), made us alive(born again), together with Christ(resurrection)—by grace you have been saved". Our response to being born again, we believe have faith in the Son, this faith takes us through to the end or the day of redemption. It justifies, sanctifies, causes us to repent.

On double election. If I fall in love with a women and make her my wife, does that mean that I hate all other women, no. It's the same with Christ when His Father picks His bride for Him, which is the custom in the near east or middle east. I have a friend from that area and his bride was picked for him by his parents and I've meet others that are in the same type of marriage arrangement.

Here's the state of man as God see them and why he can't have faith in and of himself. Romans 3:10-12, 14-18 "No one is righteous, no, not one; no one understands; no one seeks for God. All have turned aside; together they have become worthless; no one does good, not even one......Their mouth is full of curses and bitterness.”
“Their feet are swift to shed blood; in their paths are ruin and misery, and the way of peace they have not known.”
“There is no fear of God before their eyes(they can't see the kingdom of God).” Here are some Scriptures that go along the same line.

Psalm 10:4 The wicked in his proud countenance does not seek God; God is in none of his thoughts.


Isaiah 53:6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned, every one, to his own way; and the Lord has laid on Him the iniquity of us all.

 

[Johnny_B]

I'm not saying that salvation and the means by which we are saved were not foreknown or predestined. Jesus was crucified before the foundation of the world . . . was he actually? Nope but the plan was in God's foreknowledge.

Yes in God's foreordained plan Acts 2:23b "delivered up according to the definite plan and foreknowledge of God," The Father's definite plan and foreknowledge is why Christ was crucified before the foundation of the world or creation.

I will probably just have to agree to disagree when it comes to God making us born again - Yes, salvation is of God through my belief in Jesus Christ - through faith. IOW - we don't have to do anything but sit back and wait and HOPE rather we will be one that God condemns or one that God elects . . . what a place of insecurity!

And this is his commandment, that we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment. 1 John 3:23

That is exactly what I'm not saying, we do have to respond to God opening our eyes to His kingdom. With the great with while He loved us, we respond to that by having faith, believing and repenting which is a life long activity for us, confession is us agreeing with God that we have sin and what it is when it's revealed to us. This is our responsibility in our salvation, we need to respond, it's God that causes us to be able to respond.

Whosoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . 1 John 5:1a

And this is the record, that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. He that has the Son has life; and he that has not the Son of God has not life. These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that you may KNOW that you have eternal life, and that you may believe on the name of the Son of God. 1 John 5:11-13 . . . scripture is full of verses that say we must believe in Jesus Christ.

Exactly, with John 1:13 defining how those that believe or receive were able to do that. "Who were born" there natural birth, "not of blood" not your hereditary, "nor of the will of the flesh(because of any thing, like having Christian parents) or of the will of man" it's not of you or your will, "but of God." it's God that gives you the power to become children of God. Every whosoever has been given the power to become a child of God by the power of the Holy Spirit and the resurrection of Jesus, this is through out the Bible or as Peter said, "according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, in the sanctification of the Spirit, for obedience to Jesus Christ and for sprinkling with his blood:".

Hey Sis, I understand if you want to stop and agree to disagree, if you do I want to thank you for putting up with me and not getting upset with this old stubborn man, as I mentioned in another post this has helped to see the things that I used to believe but, had abandoned to remember them and that I wasn't the only one that viewed that way. God Bless You.

 

[trucker62]

And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose. 29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to beconformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.

I think we go way to deep in trying to understand this passage. God clearly states his will in 2nd Timothy 2: 4. God clearly desires ALL men to be saved, but we know that not all men will be saved. Why? Because they will reject the finished work of God through Christ. It is not that he predestined some to be saved and others not to be. Jesus died for the sins of the entire world and offered the entire world the choice to receive Jesus as Lord. Ephesians chapter 2 clearly reveal that salvation is a free gift offered to all men and that gift can be freely received by accepting Jesus as Lord. God has given men the choice to say yay or nay. He does not offer salvation freely to all men then say as a caveat, that just means some men.

The key to Romans 8 is the world foreknowledge. It simply means God in his foreknowledge knows those who will accept Jesus as Lord and has predestined those who accept Christ to be conformed into his image. Very simple! God in his foreknowledge knew Pharaoh would reject Moses, that Esau would sell his birthright for a bowl of soup.

It does not mean God picks and choses who is lost or who is saved, he knows in his foreknowledge who will accept him and in that foreknowledge has said, all those who receive Jesus as Lord will be conformed into the image of Christ.

 

[peacefulbeliever]

We believe the same about faith, we disagree on we get it. I say it's in response of God birthing us, you say it causes us to be birthed by God, right?

"who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God." By causing us to be born again, not our will, not my will or our parents will, which lines up with Ephesians 2:8-9 "For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing(faith); it is the gift of God(grace),9 not a result of works(sacraments), so that no one may boast(it was my faith)."

John 1:13 speaks of birth - not of blood, (we were born of the blood of man), nor the will (desire) of the flesh (we were born out of the desire of the flesh between a woman and a man), nor by the will (desire) of man (aner - with reference to sex not anthropos which is more in reference to the human being) . . . but of God . . . This could be speaking concerning the birth of Christ and could also refer to the new birth (although it does not use the term born again) . . . both are applicable and I agree, I am born again by God's grace through faith (Eph. 2:8).

Concerning Ephesians 2:8 For by grace (God's favor) you have been saved through (by) faith. And this is not your own doing (salvation); it is the gift of God (salvation) 9) not of works (you say sacraments, I say by any effort of doing what you perceive as good, earning your own way) lest any man should boast; (I have fed more of the hungry than you have, I have given more in offerings than you have, I haven't committed as many sins as you have, etc.) Reminds me of Matt. 7:22.

Yes, if we don't believe we are condemned already. This is why there is no double election, man is condemned already. That's why we need, "God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us(the Church),5 even when we were dead in our trespasses(condemned already), made us alive(born again), together with Christ(resurrection)—by grace you have been saved". Our response to being born again, we believe have faith in the Son, this faith takes us through to the end or the day of redemption. It justifies, sanctifies, causes us to repent.On double election. If I fall in love with a women and make her my wife, does that mean that I hate all other women, no. It's the same with Christ when His Father picks His bride for Him, which is the custom in the near east or middle east. I have a friend from that area and his bride was picked for him by his parents and I've meet others that are in the same type of marriage arrangement.

I have no idea about "double election". I know that we were dead in our trespasses and sins (condemned) and that when we believed - we were made alive by God (born again) and in God's eyes, we are seen as resurrected with Christ - bottom line reiterated - by grace you have been saved (Eph. 2:8) The ones who remain condemned are those who do not believe in the only begotten Son of God - that belief (faith) in Christ is what removes us from the state of being condemned - He that believes on him (the only begotten Son of God) is not condemned: but he that believes not is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. I see - you are saying we are born again first then believe (have faith) in the Son?

Here's the state of man as God see them and why he can't have faith in and of himself. Romans 3:10-12, 14-18 "No one is righteous, no, not one; no one understands; no one seeks for God. All have turned aside; together they have become worthless; no one does good, not even one......Their mouth is full of curses and bitterness.”
“Their feet are swift to shed blood; in their paths are ruin and misery, and the way of peace they have not known.”
“There is no fear of God before their eyes(they can't see the kingdom of God).” Here are some Scriptures that go along the same line.

Psalm 10:4 The wicked in his proud countenance does not seek God; God is in none of his thoughts.

Isaiah 53:6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned, every one, to his own way; and the Lord has laid on Him the iniquity of us all.[/QUOTE]
All I know is - God sent his Son to reconcile us to himself (1 Cor. 5:19) and it is for anyone who believes (has faith) in his Son (John 3:16). One only needs to repent, turn away (a change of mind) from serving Satan and turn to serving God.

Jesus tells us: Seek first the kingdom of God and his righteousness (Matt. 6:33) and remember this one: God is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him (Hebrews 11:6) and Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God - through hearing the gospel, the good news that God sent his Son to reconcile us back to himself, God sent his Son to give his life for us and that by his shed blood we receive remission of sin, we are made righteous, we are justified, we are sanctified - if we trust and have confidence in what we hear concerning Jesus Christ - we have faith.

 

[Johnny_B]

And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose. 29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to beconformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.

I think we go way to deep in trying to understand this passage. God clearly states his will in 2nd Timothy 2: 4. God clearly desires ALL men to be saved, but we know that not all men will be saved. Why? Because they will reject the finished work of God through Christ. It is not that he predestined some to be saved and others not to be. Jesus died for the sins of the entire world and offered the entire world the choice to receive Jesus as Lord. Ephesians chapter 2 clearly reveal that salvation is a free gift offered to all men and that gift can be freely received by accepting Jesus as Lord. God has given men the choice to say yay or nay. He does not offer salvation freely to all men then say as a caveat, that just means some men.

The key to Romans 8 is the world foreknowledge. It simply means God in his foreknowledge knows those who will accept Jesus as Lord and has predestined those who accept Christ to be conformed into his image. Very simple! God in his foreknowledge knew Pharaoh would reject Moses, that Esau would sell his birthright for a bowl of soup.

It does not mean God picks and choses who is lost or who is saved, he knows in his foreknowledge who will accept him and in that foreknowledge has said, all those who receive Jesus as Lord will be conformed into the image of Christ.

It's first Timothy 2:4 and it does not say will, it says desire, with the context being , "Therefore I exhort first of all that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks be made for all men," If it was will they would be saved.

Romans 9:19, 22-24 "You will say to me then, “Why does He still find fault? For who has resisted His will?........What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory, 24 even us whom He called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?"

He prepares those that are to be saved, by causing them to be born again 1 Peter 1:3 which I'm sure you're read.

Can you show us how Ephesians 2, shows that salvation is for all men, thanks. No one that interprets foreknowledge to mean by someones future faith, has interpreted John 3:3 can you do that for us?

 

[Johnny_B]

John 1:13 speaks of birth - not of blood, (we were born of the blood of man), nor the will (desire) of the flesh (we were born out of the desire of the flesh between a woman and a man), nor by the will (desire) of man (aner - with reference to sex not anthropos which is more in reference to the human being) . . . but of God . . . This could be speaking concerning the birth of Christ and could also refer to the new birth (although it does not use the term born again) . . . both are applicable and I agree, I am born again by God's grace through faith (Eph. 2:8).

Concerning Ephesians 2:8 For by grace (God's favor) you have been saved through (by) faith. And this is not your own doing (salvation); it is the gift of God (salvation) 9) not of works (you say sacraments, I say by any effort of doing what you perceive as good, earning your own way) lest any man should boast; (I have fed more of the hungry than you have, I have given more in offerings than you have, I haven't committed as many sins as you have, etc.) Reminds me of Matt. 7:22.

I have no idea about "double election". I know that we were dead in our trespasses and sins (condemned) and that when we believed - we were made alive by God (born again) and in God's eyes, we are seen as resurrected with Christ - bottom line reiterated - by grace you have been saved (Eph. 2:8) The ones who remain condemned are those who do not believe in the only begotten Son of God - that belief (faith) in Christ is what removes us from the state of being condemned - He that believes on him (the only begotten Son of God) is not condemned: but he that believes not is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. I see - you are saying we are born again first then believe (have faith) in the Son?

Here's the state of man as God see them and why he can't have faith in and of himself. Romans 3:10-12, 14-18 "No one is righteous, no, not one; no one understands; no one seeks for God. All have turned aside; together they have become worthless; no one does good, not even one......Their mouth is full of curses and bitterness.”
“Their feet are swift to shed blood; in their paths are ruin and misery, and the way of peace they have not known.”
“There is no fear of God before their eyes(they can't see the kingdom of God).” Here are some Scriptures that go along the same line.

Psalm 10:4 The wicked in his proud countenance does not seek God; God is in none of his thoughts.

Isaiah 53:6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned, every one, to his own way; and the Lord has laid on Him the iniquity of us all.[/QUOTE]
All I know is - God sent his Son to reconcile us to himself (1 Cor. 5:19) and it is for anyone who believes (has faith) in his Son (John 3:16). One only needs to repent, turn away (a change of mind) from serving Satan and turn to serving God.

Jesus tells us: Seek first the kingdom of God and his righteousness (Matt. 6:33) and remember this one: God is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him (Hebrews 11:6) and Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God - through hearing the gospel, the good news that God sent his Son to reconcile us back to himself, God sent his Son to give his life for us and that by his shed blood we receive remission of sin, we are made righteous, we are justified, we are sanctified - if we trust and have confidence in what we hear concerning Jesus Christ - we have faith.

Again I agree with most all of what you said, the over riding factor is John 1:12-13, 3:3. John 3:3 is the verse that no seems to want to deal with or how John sets up the context of believe and receive, whosoever 1:12-13. The question remains can we have faith before we are born again?

 

[peacefulbeliever]

Yes in God's foreordained plan Acts 2:23b "delivered up according to the definite plan and foreknowledge of God," The Father's definite plan and foreknowledge is why Christ was crucified before the foundation of the world or creation.

That is exactly what I'm not saying, we do have to respond to God opening our eyes to His kingdom. With the great with while He loved us, we respond to that by having faith, believing and repenting which is a life long activity for us, confession is us agreeing with God that we have sin and what it is when it's revealed to us. This is our responsibility in our salvation, we need to respond, it's God that causes us to be able to respond.

Exactly, with John 1:13 defining how those that believe or receive were able to do that. "Who were born" there natural birth, "not of blood" not your hereditary, "nor of the will of the flesh(because of any thing, like having Christian parents) or of the will of man" it's not of you or your will, "but of God." it's God that gives you the power to become children of God. Every whosoever has been given the power to become a child of God by the power of the Holy Spirit and the resurrection of Jesus, this is through out the Bible or as Peter said, "according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, in the sanctification of the Spirit, for obedience to Jesus Christ and for sprinkling with his blood:".

Hey Sis, I understand if you want to stop and agree to disagree, if you do I want to thank you for putting up with me and not getting upset with this old stubborn man, as I mentioned in another post this has helped to see the things that I used to believe but, had abandoned to remember them and that I wasn't the only one that viewed that way. God Bless You.

To me - without believing in Jesus Christ, the only begotten Son of God - having faith in Jesus Christ - NO ONE will be born again. No one comes to the Father but by (through) me . . . . John 14:6. The word of God opens our eyes to "see" - not all that hear the word of God believe it . . . so faith comes by hearing and believing what one hears - Is that God drawing man to himself through faith in his Son? (John 6:44) Does man have the freedom to hear and believe? Can man resist the Holy Spirit? Does God predetermine who will believe and who will not deliberately, i.e. choose some to believe and some to not believe? The invitation is there for all to believe and receive.

 

[peacefulbeliever]

John 1:13 speaks of birth - not of blood, (we were born of the blood of man), nor the will (desire) of the flesh (we were born out of the desire of the flesh between a woman and a man), nor by the will (desire) of man (aner - with reference to sex not anthropos which is more in reference to the human being) . . . but of God . . . This could be speaking concerning the birth of Christ and could also refer to the new birth (although it does not use the term born again) . . . both are applicable and I agree, I am born again by God's grace through faith (Eph. 2:8).

Concerning Ephesians 2:8 For by grace (God's favor) you have been saved through (by) faith. And this is not your own doing (salvation); it is the gift of God (salvation) 9) not of works (you say sacraments, I say by any effort of doing what you perceive as good, earning your own way) lest any man should boast; (I have fed more of the hungry than you have, I have given more in offerings than you have, I haven't committed as many sins as you have, etc.) Reminds me of Matt. 7:22.

I have no idea about "double election". I know that we were dead in our trespasses and sins (condemned) and that when we believed - we were made alive by God (born again) and in God's eyes, we are seen as resurrected with Christ - bottom line reiterated - by grace you have been saved (Eph. 2:8) The ones who remain condemned are those who do not believe in the only begotten Son of God - that belief (faith) in Christ is what removes us from the state of being condemned - He that believes on him (the only begotten Son of God) is not condemned: but he that believes not is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. I see - you are saying we are born again first then believe (have faith) in the Son?

Again I agree with most all of what you said, the over riding factor is John 1:12-13, 3:3. John 3:3 is the verse that no seems to want to deal with or how John sets up the context of believe and receive, whosoever 1:12-13. The question remains can we have faith before we are born again?

The answer: We have to have faith to be born again. We have to believe in order to receive. Believing, pisteuo, is the verb form of pistis (faith) which is a noun and they go hand in hand. Their definitions are very similar - One can't have faith in something they do not believe in . . . .

 

[Johnny_B]

To me - without believing in Jesus Christ, the only begotten Son of God - having faith in Jesus Christ - NO ONE will be born again.

Okay that's where we disagree, I haven't read any Scripture that says, faith causes us to be born again, as plain as I Peter 1:3 "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! According to his great mercy, he has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead"

PB this is what I'm not saying, that you are not saved because you believe that, I can not make that judgement because God's graces bigger then this idea. Now if you were denying the historical Jesus that would be another thing or the triune nature of God. All I'm saying is God caused us to be born again so that we could place your believing/receiving/repentant/faith in Jesus. We most definitely have to have faith to be saved, our salvation/redemption is through faith. I think where I was not saying it the right way or the misunderstanding is that born again isn't exactly the same thing, even though they work together to initially saves us, then our faith takes us though to the end our salvation in the last time or the day of the Lord. Being born of water and Spirit they work together in our faith to get us to the end.

If you thought I was saying you were not saved that was not my intention, sorry please forgive me if I gave you that impression. God bless Sis.

 

[Johnny_B]

Here's something I found while doing some studying of Isaiah 53, since resurrection day is coming.

Isaiah 53:11 "By His knowledge My righteous Servant shall justify many"

 

[peacefulbeliever]

Okay that's where we disagree, I haven't read any Scripture that says, faith causes us to be born again, as plain as I Peter 1:3 "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! According to his great mercy, he has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead"

Yep, we are born again to a living hope because Jesus Christ rose from the dead according to his abundant mercy - he has begotten us again through "faith" in the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead . . . goes right along with Romans 10 . . . Confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord and believe God raised him from the dead and you shall be saved; i.e. born again of the Spirit - that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. (John 3:6)

PB this is what I'm not saying, that you are not saved because you believe that, I can not make that judgement because God's graces bigger then this idea. Now if you were denying the historical Jesus that would be another thing or the triune nature of God. All I'm saying is God caused us to be born again so that we could place your believing/receiving/repentant/faith in Jesus. We most definitely have to have faith to be saved, our salvation/redemption is through faith. I think where I was not saying it the right way or the misunderstanding is that born again isn't exactly the same thing, even though they work together to initially saves us, then our faith takes us though to the end our salvation in the last time or the day of the Lord. Being born of water and Spirit they work together in our faith to get us to the end.

If you thought I was saying you were not saved that was not my intention, sorry please forgive me if I gave you that impression. God bless Sis.

Nope, I never thought that you were saying I was not born again.

 

[peacefulbeliever]

Okay that's where we disagree, I haven't read any Scripture that says, faith causes us to be born again, as plain as I Peter 1:3 "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! According to his great mercy, he has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead"

PB this is what I'm not saying, that you are not saved because you believe that, I can not make that judgement because God's graces bigger then this idea. Now if you were denying the historical Jesus that would be another thing or the triune nature of God. All I'm saying is God caused us to be born again so that we could place your believing/receiving/repentant/faith in Jesus. We most definitely have to have faith to be saved, our salvation/redemption is through faith. I think where I was not saying it the right way or the misunderstanding is that born again isn't exactly the same thing, even though they work together to initially saves us, then our faith takes us though to the end our salvation in the last time or the day of the Lord. Being born of water and Spirit they work together in our faith to get us to the end.

If you thought I was saying you were not saved that was not my intention, sorry please forgive me if I gave you that impression. God bless Sis.

Also Galatians 3:26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

 

[garee]

I would never defend Deformed Theology....

Its been reformed theology for 2000 plus years . Its what reformation do, restore to previous time period. When men walked by faith. (That not seen)

Heb 9:8 The Holy Ghost this signifying,(to give one to understand, to indicate, ) that the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet standing:

With our parables signifying by the use of metaphors as shadows Christ spoke not. It was a parable for the time present.

Heb 9:9 Which was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience; Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation.

 

[garee]

Originally Posted by Johnny_B

Okay that's where we disagree, I haven't read any Scripture that says, faith causes us to be born again, as plain as I Peter 1:3 "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! According to his great mercy, he has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead"

It is by the faith of Christ, as a work or labor of Christ by which he applies mercy to our soul giving us a new spirit that will never die.

Without the faith of God working in us no man could believe to the salvation of their soul. We cannot have faith in him towards him unless he first gives us His faith that works towards us.

 

[FranC]

how dare anyone question the canon of scripture, when the roman councils decided what scriptures to read we should put our full faith in those councils, they may have gave us the crusades, inquisitions, and burned entire villages to the ground but thats not important, trust the councils!
Constantine a boogie man? no way, he murdered his wife, son, and made war where thousands lost their lives for his own vanity, a shining example for Christians, we were lucky to have him lead the first roman councils.

Well Gee.
I think what you write above is what the OP is exactly talking about.

As Christians we may not agree with each other, but we should respect each other.

You put down the original church. Is this the best you could do?
Did protestants not burn witches?
Man is full of the sin nature. Even Christians, it seems to me, judging from your post.

How did we go from Reformed Theology to Constantine?
He must be a favorite sport game of yours.

If it were not for the original church, there WOULD BE NO BIBLE.
Constantine did what God planned from the beginning. Somehow or other, God's plan will come to be, even when men attempt to short-circuit it.

 

[FranC]

Its been reformed theology for 2000 plus years . Its what reformation do, restore to previous time period. When men walked by faith. (That not seen)

Heb 9:8 The Holy Ghost this signifying,(to give one to understand, to indicate, ) that the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet standing:

With our parables signifying by the use of metaphors as shadows Christ spoke not. It was a parable for the time present.

Heb 9:9 Which was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience; Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation.

I'm sorry. Sometimes I can't understand what my eyes see.

Are you saying Calvin's ideas were around starting 2,000 years ago and not in the 1,500's??

I've never heard this before.

 

[trucker62]

It's first Timothy 2:4 and it does not say will, it says desire, with the context being , "Therefore I exhort first of all that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks be made for all men," If it was will they would be saved.

Romans 9:19, 22-24 "You will say to me then, “Why does He still find fault? For who has resisted His will?........What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory, 24 even us whom He called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?"

He prepares those that are to be saved, by causing them to be born again 1 Peter 1:3 which I'm sure you're read.

Can you show us how Ephesians 2, shows that salvation is for all men, thanks. No one that interprets foreknowledge to mean by someones future faith, has interpreted John 3:3 can you do that for us?

It's first Timothy 2:4 and it does not say will, it says desire, with the context being , "Therefore I exhort first of all that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks be made for all men," If it was will they would be saved.

Romans 9:19, 22-24 "You will say to me then, “Why does He still find fault? For who has resisted His will?........What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory, 24 even us whom He called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?"

He prepares those that are to be saved, by causing them to be born again 1 Peter 1:3 which I'm sure you're read.

Can you show us how Ephesians 2, shows that salvation is for all men, thanks. No one that interprets foreknowledge to mean by someones future faith, has interpreted John 3:3 can you do that for us?

Johnny B,

Ephesians 2:1-10 reveals that Salvation is a free gift offered to all men even when we were dead in our trespasses and sins. When Paul says that it is a free gift, it implies that it is not something you have to work for, but it is freely offered to all men WHO receive it through the confession of Jesus Christ as you alluded to in John 3:3 or better put, being born again.

Salvation is a gift God through Jesus offered to the entire world. John 3: 16 reveals that. For God so loved the World he gave his only begotten son. That WHOSOEVER believes on him, means anyone of any color, race, nation or creed can get in on or receive.

It is safe to say that not all men will receive and confess, but John 3:17 and on tells us why. Men love darkness and so reject this free Gift.

Would you clarify what you mean by foreknowledge being someones future faith, I am not understanding what you are getting at?

Grace and peace to you

 

[Johnny_B]

It is by the faith of Christ, as a work or labor of Christ by which he applies mercy to our soul giving us a new spirit that will never die.

Without the faith of God working in us no man could believe to the salvation of their soul. We cannot have faith in him towards him unless he first gives us His faith that works towards us.

I agree that without God's intervention we stay condemned, John 3:18.

I've heard that type of teaching, "faith of God" from the word of faith teachers, so I need to do a deeper study on that, because they're not Bible scholars by any means. So you are saying that God places His trust in Himself?