Those Who Deny Sin in a Believer

[gb9]

gb9 - you sound like a repeating clock. Sin is defined by the word of God and if you are
not prepared to apply it to your heart and repent there is nothing left to share.

And in truth we only know the sin that applies to us by dwelling in the word and in the
Holy Spirit. I could say all the nicest words there are, if I do not deal with Gods conviction
in my heart over my issues, I am lost.

And this is the point, it is not hard to know our failure points it is how we are dealing with
them in Christ that matters.

God bless you, for I love you as a brother though know you are a opponent.

by failing points, you mean sin. so therefore, not pure, righteous and holy.

the reason I repeat this so often is it is extremely important. words matter. the proper definition of words matter. feelings and emotions have nothing to do with the definition of sin. you either meet the standard or not. if not, it is sin. no feelings required.

 

[Grace777x70]

by failing points, you mean sin. so therefore, not pure, righteous and holy.

the reason I repeat this so often is it is extremely important. words matter. the proper definition of words matter. feelings and emotions have nothing to do with the definition of sin. you either meet the standard or not. if not, it is sin. no feelings required.

That's true...they redefine sin so that they can "do the sermon on the mount" and thus be righteous by what they do or don't do. It's an anti-Christ belief system called works-righteousness and it is an enemy of the Lord Jesus Christ and actually denies the work on the cross and resurrection done by our Lord.

Then some cry " You are saying we can live however we want and not walk in a godly way." or "you are against those that walk with Christ".

I ignore this type of nonsense and deceit and refuse to interact with those that continue to distort what is being said just like Paul said to do in Rom. 16:17.

 

[PeterJens]

by failing points, you mean sin. so therefore, not pure, righteous and holy.

the reason I repeat this so often is it is extremely important. words matter. the proper definition of words matter. feelings and emotions have nothing to do with the definition of sin. you either meet the standard or not. if not, it is sin. no feelings required.

Failure is not sin. Sin is something the word of God describes.
But I can have a standard or aspiration, which I do not meet, but the standard is not
a moral standard, like how fast can I type, and the failure is not a sinful one.

And as you describe you hate feelings and our perspectives. Sorry but we all have them,
and how we respond to things is very emotional.

Let me give you an example. I our house we have a fridge in which there is food.
Now some food is linked to certain people and not others. To take it would be regarded
as stealing by some or eating what is available to all.

So the rule is unless you mark it especially as ones own, or kept, it is not stealing to
take it. Now so many things in life come down to this interplay of openness, rights,
offering and boundaries. The kids learn the boundaries quite well, and do label stuff
they want to keep or let it be known, and then everything is fine.

So I suggest you are just being provocative for the sake of it, which is not wisdom
or something I would expect from a follower of Jesus.

To a large degree you are saying I do not know my Lord or His ways.
God bless you, may the Lord make His face to shine upon you and give you peace.

 

[dcontroversal]

That's true...they redefine sin so that they can "do the sermon on the mount" and thus be righteous by what they do or don't do. It's an anti-Christ belief system called works-righteousness and it is an enemy of the Lord Jesus Christ and actually denies the work on the cross and resurrection done by our Lord.

Then some cry " You are saying we can live however we want and not walk in a godly way." or "you are against those that walk with Christ".

I ignore this type of nonsense and deceit and refuse to interact with those that continue to distort what is being said just like Paul said to do in Rom. 16:17.

I heard that....and maybe we should start like 10 threads in like 2 days ALL based upon the same regurgitated fallacies and keep pushing them to the front....

IS this bible chat or PJ chat?

 

[dcontroversal]

Amen! 1 Corinthians 2:11 - For what man knows the things of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so no one knows the things of God except the Spirit of God. 12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might know the things that have been freely given to us by God. 13 These things we also speak, not in words which man's wisdom teaches but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual. 14 But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Exactly why the workers for do not understand the one and only way...a grace based, faith based eternal security and salvation found in Christ!

 

[PeterJens]

Exactly why the workers for do not understand the one and only way...a grace based, faith based eternal security and salvation found in Christ!

Some time ago your proposition would have made sense.

The only problem is being holy and pure. No born again believer is yet the image
of Christ, and there is often much work to do. The problem with a word like work
is it takes effort, dedication, commitment, faith, love, perseverance, courage,
self control.

If you say nope, none of this matters, it is a forgone conclusion and even admitting
the issues along the way is totally wrong, to my thinking this is not the Lord speaking
but pure deception. Sin is sin, and always needs to be faced and dealt with.

To compromise on sin is to deny the Word and Gods ways. He does not compromise
to the extent all causes of sin will be removed, and all sinners cast into the lake of
fire. Pretty final stuff. No compromise.

 

[dcontroversal]

Some time ago your proposition would have made sense.

The only problem is being holy and pure. No born again believer is yet the image
of Christ, and there is often much work to do. The problem with a word like work
is it takes effort, dedication, commitment, faith, love, perseverance, courage,
self control.

If you say nope, none of this matters, it is a forgone conclusion and even admitting
the issues along the way is totally wrong, to my thinking this is not the Lord speaking
but pure deception. Sin is sin, and always needs to be faced and dealt with.

To compromise on sin is to deny the Word and Gods ways. He does not compromise
to the extent all causes of sin will be removed, and all sinners cast into the lake of
fire. Pretty final stuff. No compromise.

No, actually you fail to understand that the RIGHTEOUSNESS of CHRIST has been APPLIED by grace to all who exercise biblical faith....that is why you will not make the cut...your still trusting into yourself to finish what Christ has already finished....

What part of "when I see the blood I will pass over you" don't you get?

Your works will never make you holy, righteous or pure if you are not already as such in Christ JESUS....and to be frank....when you called the imputed righteousness of Christ a neat little trick that does not work....I am surprised you did not get banned!

God made the one who did not know sin to be sin for us, so that in him we would become the righteousness of God.

 

[valiant]

The only problem is being holy and pure. No born again believer is yet the image
of Christ, and there is often much work to do.

Precisely.

The problem with a word like work
is it takes effort, dedication, commitment, faith, love, perseverance, courage,
self control

.

There is a great deal of difference between work (effort) and works. We certainly respond to the grace of God by putting effort in and living accordingly. But that effort is guided by His grace and is the result of His gracious work in saving us. Works on the other hand are our attempt to help in gaining our eternal salvation,

If you say nope, none of this matters, it is a forgone conclusion and even admitting
the issues along the way is totally wrong,

I have defined the difference between using energy and works

to my thinking this is not the Lord speaking
but pure deception

.

but it is your idea of working that is confused,

Sin is sin, and always needs to be faced and dealt with.

We agree on this, and this is why God saves us. But it is His work and not ours. We put our effort in in cooperation with Him as He works out His purpose for us..

To compromise on sin is to deny the Word and Gods ways.

Paul was wrongly accused of compromising with sin, so we expect to be as well. But as Paul makes clear in Romans 6, God has worked in us to bring about His will..

He does not compromise to the extent all causes of sin will be removed, and all sinners cast into the lake of
fire. Pretty final stuff. No compromise.

But this awaits the future.

 

[PeterJens]

No, actually you fail to understand that the RIGHTEOUSNESS of CHRIST has been APPLIED by grace to all who exercise biblical faith....that is why you will not make the cut...your still trusting into yourself to finish what Christ has already finished....

What part of "when I see the blood I will pass over you" don't you get?

Your works will never make you holy, righteous or pure if you are not already as such in Christ JESUS....and to be frank....when you called the imputed righteousness of Christ a neat little trick that does not work....I am surprised you did not get banned!

God made the one who did not know sin to be sin for us, so that in him we would become the righteousness of God.

In your world if a person has faith they are saved, made the cut, and if they put on
obedience and good works it is just extra benefits.

How in your wildest dreams do people of faith now get excluded because their faith is
not the right type? Is there a faith exam I was never entered into which now I have not
passed? When I first knew Christ I did not have any expectations of earning favour or
working for anything I just trusted Him. So in your book I am saved as much as you are.

So to try and condemn me you will have to invent some way a born again believer can loose
their salvation, or else you are talking junk. And this is the problem with retrospective theology,
it does not work, because it is just excuse theology for failure to walk in the expectations you
had as a youngster in the things of God. But you need to give those dreams and expectations
up and put on the word of God and face real life and its definative choices, and know God loves
you and wants you to just walk in His ways.

 

[dcontroversal]

In your world if a person has faith they are saved, made the cut, and if they put on
obedience and good works it is just extra benefits.

How in your wildest dreams do people of faith now get excluded because their faith is
not the right type? Is there a faith exam I was never entered into which now I have not
passed? When I first knew Christ I did not have any expectations of earning favour or
working for anything I just trusted Him. So in your book I am saved as much as you are.

So to try and condemn me you will have to invent some way a born again believer can loose
their salvation, or else you are talking junk. And this is the problem with retrospective theology,
it does not work, because it is just excuse theology for failure to walk in the expectations you
had as a youngster in the things of God. But you need to give those dreams and expectations
up and put on the word of God and face real life and its definative choices, and know God loves
you and wants you to just walk in His ways.

The bible is clear....there is but one gospel of salvation, not 2, 3 or 50....any other door than the ONE true way leads to no salvation.....I live in the real world pal...not the delusional world of make believe gospels that GOD just must accept because one is sincere.....!

 

[Grace777x70]

The true Christian life is not us living "for" Jesus per se - but Jesus Himself living "through" us. Gal. 2:20. Failure to understand this simple truth is the root of all legalism and the works-performance mentality and thus the need to create and maintain our own righteousness by what we do or don't do.

The law and all performance-driven works mentalities focus on the "outer man" and tells it what it must do. Grace focuses on the "inner man" that is in Christ and tells it what is already done in Christ.

The Law was a system under which blessings and benefits were conditional and based on human obedience and behavior. Grace in the New Covenant is based on Christ's work only - His obedience and behavior. We believe on the Lord Jesus Christ's finished work on the cross and resurrection for life and living.

Right believing produces right living which will reflect in the "outer man's" behavior as we are transformed by the Holy Spirit - the Spirit of grace.

Knowing that we are the righteousness of God in Christ as we behold the glory/goodness of the Lord as in a mirror releases the fruits of His righteousness to be manifested in and through us.

"Trying to mimic Jesus to become like Him" is the very same as Adam trying to be like God by what he can do. This is the initial lie from the enemy and is the same lie given to works-based righteousness mindsets. Adam and Eve "wanted to be like God".

It is from the belief system of the serpent - Lucifer. He had his 5 - "I wills" - of which the primary one is "I will be like the Most High."

This is the deception because it looks "good" but it's root is in self-effort and performance without depending on God Himself to live. They are attempting to be like God without God. Unless the Lord build the house - they labor in vain that build it.

It has the "appearance of good" but denies the power of God to effect real change and it is independent of God although they use the name of God, Jesus, Spirit, word of God.

This is why the D.I.Y self-righteousness/holiness mindset belief system is anti-Christ at it's very core and actually denies the Lord and Master's work on the cross and resurrection.

 

[dcontroversal]

The true Christian life is not us living "for" Jesus per se - but Jesus Himself living "through" us. Gal. 2:20. Failure to understand this simple truth is the root of all legalism and the works-performance mentality and thus the need to create and maintain our own righteousness by what we do or don't do.

The law and all performance-driven works mentalities focus on the "outer man" and tells it what it must do. Grace focuses on the "inner man" that is in Christ and tells it what is already done in Christ.

The Law was a system under which blessings and benefits were conditional and based on human obedience and behavior. Grace in the New Covenant is based on Christ's work only - His obedience and behavior. We believe on the Lord Jesus Christ's finished work on the cross and resurrection for life and living.

Right believing produces right living which will reflect in the "outer man's" behavior as we are transformed by the Holy Spirit - the Spirit of grace.

Knowing that we are the righteousness of God in Christ as we behold the glory/goodness of the Lord as in a mirror releases the fruits of His righteousness to be manifested in and through us.

"Trying to mimic Jesus to become like Him" is the very same as Adam trying to be like God by what he can do. This is the initial lie from the enemy and is the same lie given to works-based righteousness mindsets.

It is from the belief system of the serpent - Lucifer. He had his 5 - "I wills" - of which the primary one is "I will be like the Most High."

This is why the D.I.Y self-righteousness/holiness mindset belief system is anti-Christ at it's very core and actually denies the Lord and Master's work on the cross and resurrection.

Amen bro.............

 

[dcontroversal]

Thanks Magenta......peace.........

 

[limey410]

The true Christian life is not us living "for" Jesus per se - but Jesus Himself living "through" us. Gal. 2:20. Failure to understand this simple truth is the root of all legalism and the works-performance mentality and thus the need to create and maintain our own righteousness by what we do or don't do.

The law and all performance-driven works mentalities focus on the "outer man" and tells it what it must do. Grace focuses on the "inner man" that is in Christ and tells it what is already done in Christ.

The Law was a system under which blessings and benefits were conditional and based on human obedience and behavior. Grace in the New Covenant is based on Christ's work only - His obedience and behavior. We believe on the Lord Jesus Christ's finished work on the cross and resurrection for life and living.

Right believing produces right living which will reflect in the "outer man's" behavior as we are transformed by the Holy Spirit - the Spirit of grace.

Knowing that we are the righteousness of God in Christ as we behold the glory/goodness of the Lord as in a mirror releases the fruits of His righteousness to be manifested in and through us.

"Trying to mimic Jesus to become like Him" is the very same as Adam trying to be like God by what he can do. This is the initial lie from the enemy and is the same lie given to works-based righteousness mindsets. Adam and Eve "wanted to be like God".

It is from the belief system of the serpent - Lucifer. He had his 5 - "I wills" - of which the primary one is "I will be like the Most High."

This is the deception because it looks "good" but it's root is in self-effort and performance without depending on God Himself to live. They are attempting to be like God without God. Unless the Lord build the house - they labor in vain that build it.

It has the "appearance of good" but denies the power of God to effect real change and it is independent of God although they use the name of God, Jesus, Spirit, word of God.

This is why the D.I.Y self-righteousness/holiness mindset belief system is anti-Christ at it's very core and actually denies the Lord and Master's work on the cross and resurrection.

Yep, and there are so many Christians that want to wrestle it back and take it all upon their shoulders.
Religious pride I suppose. I feel for them (sometimes get angry and frustrated by them).
So many believers turn from the faith because after they are saved, someone tells them that they are not good enough, or don't do enough, don't pray enough, don't read their bible enough, don't go to church enough, don't serve enough, don't do it all right enough...and then when they've had enough folks look around and ask what happened??? They were won by a message of truth and love and grace and then dragged back to the heavy burdens of the new law, really a law-lite, pick and choose law.
So sad, yet some are still gutting it out for God.
Showing us how hard it is, and how hard they are working at it, instead of just trusting and resting in the mercy and Grace of an AWESOME ALL POWERFUL God. Who already did it all, so we could have everything we need for life and godliness.

 

[dcontroversal]

Yep, and there are so many Christians that want to wrestle it back and take it all upon their shoulders.
Religious pride I suppose. I feel for them (sometimes get angry and frustrated by them).
So many believers turn from the faith because after they are saved, someone tells them that they are not good enough, or don't do enough, don't pray enough, don't read their bible enough, don't go to church enough, don't serve enough, don't do it all right enough...and then when they've had enough folks look around and ask what happened??? They were won by a message of truth and love and grace and then dragged back to the heavy burdens of the new law, really a law-lite, pick and choose law.
So sad, yet some are still gutting it out for God.
Showing us how hard it is, and how hard they are working at it, instead of just trusting and resting in the mercy and Grace of an AWESOME ALL POWERFUL God. Who already did it all, so we could have everything we need for life and godliness.

MANY deny that in the flesh we continually fall short of the glory of God and if not for the righteousness of Christ being applied by the faith and blood none would ever make the kingdom of God.....

 

[Grace777x70]

Yep, and there are so many Christians that want to wrestle it back and take it all upon their shoulders.
Religious pride I suppose. I feel for them (sometimes get angry and frustrated by them).
So many believers turn from the faith because after they are saved, someone tells them that they are not good enough, or don't do enough, don't pray enough, don't read their bible enough, don't go to church enough, don't serve enough, don't do it all right enough...and then when they've had enough folks look around and ask what happened??? They were won by a message of truth and love and grace and then dragged back to the heavy burdens of the new law, really a law-lite, pick and choose law.
So sad, yet some are still gutting it out for God.
Showing us how hard it is, and how hard they are working at it, instead of just trusting and resting in the mercy and Grace of an AWESOME ALL POWERFUL God. Who already did it all, so we could have everything we need for life and godliness.

Amen!

I believe a lot of sincere believers have left the church ( not Jesus ) because they could not live this religious Christian life that was being preached to them. They loved Jesus " in their heart" but they didn't want to be a hypocrite so they backed away from the organized church.

Then there is the group that struggled with a certain sin and were never taught about grace properly and so they left because they were defeated. Constantly feeling condemned and guilty and full of shame. The legalists keep preaching at them to change!

The only change that is effective is from the true manifestation of the life of Jesus that is already in us - in our new creation and that only comes with the message of the gospel of the grace of Christ.

I believe there are thousands of Christians like this but I also believe the Lord is bringing them back to Him - only this time it will be based on the true knowledge of Him and His love and grace for them.

Let's make sure that they are met at the door by the loving Father and not the judgmental older brother who didn't know the Father's heart towards His beloved children whom He loves dearly.

 

[dcontroversal]

Amen!

I believe a lot of sincere believers have left the church ( not Jesus ) because they could not live this religious Christian life that was being preached to them. They loved Jesus " in their heart" but they didn't want to be a hypocrite so they backed away from the organized church.

Then there is the group that struggled with a certain sin and were never taught about grace properly and so they left because they were defeated. Constantly feeling condemned and guilty and full of shame. The legalists keep preaching at them to change!

The only change that is effective is from the true manifestation of the life of Jesus that is already in us - in our new creation and that only comes with the message of the gospel of the grace of Christ.

I believe there are thousands of Christians like this but I also believe the Lord is bringing them back to Him - only this time it will be based on the true knowledge of Him and His love and grace for them.

Let's make sure that they are met at the door by the loving Father and not the judgmental older brother who didn't know the Father's heart towards His beloved children whom He loves dearly.

AMEN again......the legalist workers for will never make the cut.....their faith is in themselves and not completely in JESUS......

 

[limey410]

MANY deny that in the flesh we continually fall short of the glory of God and if not for the righteousness of Christ being applied by the faith and blood none would ever make the kingdom of God.....

Yep, and some claim that because I acknowledge that I am a fully forgiven, that I want to just go around willfully sinning. Then I would be underestimating the evilness of sin and the magnitude of the sacrifice that Jesus made on my behalf.

The fact is that I don't work at not sinning, I work on my relationship with the Lord Jesus and as a result I hope to sin less frequently.
Jesus gives me the opportunity to turn away from the temptations more and more as I grow with Him.

It is not through the machinations of man/religion that I mature, but through the knowledge of His full acceptance of me that my true growth is and will be achieved.
God is concerned with my Spirit, no longer my flesh. The fact that folks always want me to focus on getting my flesh under control (usually the way they see it as right or wrong) instead of being with Jesus is scary.
For them anyway, not me, I'm cool with God, and He is cool with me. He loves me, calls me friend and brother, what more could I possibly want?

 

[Sully]

I
So to try and condemn me you will have to invent some way a born again believer can loose
their salvation

This statement confuses me. Who is it that is making salvation more difficult and leans toward condemning in this and all of these discussions? Be honest now pj. Seriously let's act like spiritual carnivores just for one brief moment.

 

[PeterJens]

The bible is clear....there is but one gospel of salvation, not 2, 3 or 50....any other door than the ONE true way leads to no salvation.....I live in the real world pal...not the delusional world of make believe gospels that GOD just must accept because one is sincere.....!

dc - polarisation sucks. It makes friends enemies, people who should walk together
on other side of fences. If you listen to Jesus and His simple things He speaks into our
hearts. If this is your heart then we are brothers, if not, we are something else.