Sermon on the mount - life or legalistic junk

[Grace777x70]

I guess Peter and Paul had no idea of what Jesus said there before the Cross when they preached the gospel of the grace of Christ?

Look at the word-for-word accounts of the true gospel of Christ being preached and no where does it say to "forgive first or you will not be forgiven" I'll give you the exact scripture references . Peter - Acts 10:43 and Paul Acts 13:38

Have you ever heard Billy Graham say " Forgive people first before you come to receive Christ's forgiveness"?..of course not..it is anti-the gospel.

It is extremely important to read all scriptures in their context - even the words of Jesus because He said things pertaining to His time but we can always learn good truths from all the words of Jesus. I understand this conflicts with some of our religious beliefs passed on by mad-made traditions which nullify the grace of God.

The Cross of Christ changed from living according to law and we are now in the grace of Christ for forgiveness. It is not based on us. We forgive because we are forgiven - it's in our nature now.

 

[Grace777x70]

Here's Peter preaching the true gospel of Christ. Shouldn't he have said "You need to forgive anyone first before you can receive God's forgiveness by the blood of Jesus"??

Acts 10:43 (NASB)
[SUP]43 [/SUP] "Of Him all the prophets bear witness that through His name everyone who believes in Him receives forgiveness of sins."


And the same thing for Paul - he didn't say 'You need to forgive first before we you can be forgiven by the blood of Jesus" ??


Acts 13:38 (NASB)
[SUP]38 [/SUP] "Therefore let it be known to you, brethren, that through Him forgiveness of sins is proclaimed to you,

Or is it possible Jesus was talking about the law when He gave those words out for His disciples at the time they were still under law then? The New Covenant didn't come into effect until Jesus died and rose again to obtain our eternal forgiveness.

Here Paul says that forgiveness is all based on "according to the riches of His grace "..not if we forgive first.

Ephesians 1:7 (NASB)
[SUP]7 [/SUP] In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of His grace.

We have the forgiveness of sins according to the riches of His grace - not if we forgive first.

We forgive now from our hearts because we have new hearts filled with the love of God. It's in our new nature now in the new creation. Having our minds renewed to this truth will transform us to walk out what is already in us in Christ.

 

[Ariel82]

Interestingly teasing out of several contributors on another thread, the Lords prayer
is old testament and new testament.

I have spent months thinking about the Lords prayer, well, on and off, seeing different
aspects, praying it, quoting it, and finally it has me embedded in it.

Our Father who art in heaven - the Lord is our Father through Christ, Amen
Hallowed be your name - Your name is glorious, great, worthy of praise
Your kingdom come,
Your will be done on earth as it is in heaven, - May your rule be here today with us,
Give us this day our daily bread, - Meet our needs as we have them
Forgive us our sins as we forgive others, - As we walk in the way Jesus forgive us for our failures
Lead us not into temptation, - Strengthen us against being tempted to sin
Deliver us from evil - Thwart the ways of evil in our daily lives and experiences

Now this is all applicable to us, here and now.
For those who believe ones sins now and as you do them are already forgiven
they regard it as unbelief to suggest we might not be forgiven, and especially
not with a condition like we have to forgive others.

So subtle is this rebellion, that forgiveness is now automatic no matter the heart
attitude. Jesus in the parable of the merciful King makes clear this is heresy, and
the Lord will judge such unforgiveness is a sinful heart, by not forgiving the sin which
they plead to be taken into account. Matt 18:21-35

This is how my heavenly Father will treat each of you unless you forgive your brother or sister from your heart.
Matt 18:35

He was saying that we are empowered to forgive others because God first forgive us,

I believe if we refuse to forgive others, insist on fighting and throwing their past hurts and injuries to us in their face, if we continue to curse and slander others, then God will chastens His children.

Do you agree or disagree that we are empowered to forgive others because God first forgave us?

 

[Stephen63]

The bible never teaches that Christ is vengeful and the vengeance of God toward men is toward those who reject His mercy and grace.

Yes, it does.

Rom 1:18For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, 19because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them. 20For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse. 21For even though they knew God, they did not honor Him as God or give thanks, but they became futile in their speculations, and their foolish heart was darkened. 22Professing to be wise, they became fools, 23and exchanged the glory of the incorruptible God for an image in the form of corruptible man and of birds and four-footed animals and crawling creatures.

Scripture says that God's wrath will come upon the fallen away during the tribulation.

 

[PeterJens]

He was saying that we are empowered to forgive others because God first forgive us,

I believe if we refuse to forgive others, insist on fighting and throwing their past hurts and injuries to us in their face, if we continue to curse and slander others, then God will chastens His children.

Do you agree or disagree that we are empowered to forgive others because God first forgave us?

What you are reading in is what you want to see.
Forgiveness comes because of Christ and His forgiveness and new life.
Now because I have worked through my areas of unforgiveness I cannot testify to
how if you do not forgive this blocks so much in ones life and destroys much of our
walk with Christ, but I know it does.

And the real point being made is the condition of needing to forgive because we have
been forgiven. This is very true.

And I know I can forgive others because I know what being a slave to sin is like and
how no one is really aware of what they are and what they are doing. It is a maelstrom
of stuff heading towards you, and something difficult will always fly out, which is often
the case here on cc.

I remember one cc member continually triggered strong attacks, but I knew it was stuff
in their life, not related to me, but I was the target. I would say all of what I have seen
is very similar, even when I share the simplest insights, it is wrong because I am sharing
it. Just quoting bible verses was implicated as hypocracy, and covering up, and I did not
believe them. Yet other members where happy to carry on as if this is sane sensible
behaviour.

And you Ariel say I am paranoid. It is easy to attack someone, intentionally, and then
claim they are paranoid, to add a twist to the strategy. That is what sin does to people.

It was interesting after days of this behaviour, the member in question confessed they were
being hard on me, because they had been the same many years before. All of this is projection
and excusing abuse, yet it is "spiritual" behaviour. These are not people driven by the Holy
Spirit, but some other driving motivations.

 

[PeterJens]

Forgiveness - the hardest walk to walk with Jesus

All the things we deserved and yet the maelstrom of sin in others took it all
away and left pain, emptiness and betrayal.

Jesus on the cross, abandoned by His friends, executed by the religious authorities
innocent yet treated as a murderer, yet His love said

"Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing."
Matt 23:34

He walked a deeper path of betrayal and hurt than we ever have, and forgave
us and gave us life and love, so we likewise through His healing do this for
others.

 

[truthhurts]

Yes, it does.

Rom 1:18For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, 19because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them. 20For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse. 21For even though they knew God, they did not honor Him as God or give thanks, but they became futile in their speculations, and their foolish heart was darkened. 22Professing to be wise, they became fools, 23and exchanged the glory of the incorruptible God for an image in the form of corruptible man and of birds and four-footed animals and crawling creatures.

Scripture says that God's wrath will come upon the fallen away during the tribulation.

Heads will explode when this is said, but here goes....Romans 1 proves to us that not everyone is covered by grace, contrary to many here and hirelings....Romans 1 proves what we have said all along, you are not saved by grace alone...Grace has to appropriated through personal faith....

 

[valiant]

Heads will explode when this is said, but here goes....Romans 1 proves to us that not everyone is covered by grace, contrary to many here and hirelings....Romans 1 proves what we have said all along, you are not saved by grace alone...Grace has to appropriated through personal faith....

Roman 1 proves that all men are sinners and under the wrath of God something continued to 3.20. Romans 3. 21 on then says that it is through the Grace and mercy of God alone that man is freely saved through the redemption which in Christ Jesus.

Grace is not appropriated, it is God acting to freely redeem those who then come to Christ. Man simply responds to His grace though faith.

 

[Grace777x70]

Roman 1 proves that all men are sinners and under the wrath of God something continued to 3.20. Romans 3. 21 on then says that it is through the Grace and mercy of God alone that man is freely saved through the redemption which in Christ Jesus.

I agree...that is the whole context of Romans chapter 1-3. It is showing that all men - both Jews with their Law of Moses and Gentiles which have the law written on their hearts are guilty before God. Romans 2:12-16

All the world is guilty Paul says and then towards the end of Chaptyer 3 he talks about what Christ has done even though all have sinned.

Romans 3:23-24 (NASB)
[SUP]23 [/SUP] for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,

[SUP]24 [/SUP] being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus;

We still need to receive the abundance of grace and the gift of righteousness which are found only in Christ and this receiving is done by faith when we hear the word of Christ. Romans 5:17 & Romans 3:22

 

[Yahshua]

Yes, it does.

Rom 1:18For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, 19because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them. 20For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse. 21For even though they knew God, they did not honor Him as God or give thanks, but they became futile in their speculations, and their foolish heart was darkened. 22Professing to be wise, they became fools, 23and exchanged the glory of the incorruptible God for an image in the form of corruptible man and of birds and four-footed animals and crawling creatures.

Scripture says that God's wrath will come upon the fallen away during the tribulation.

Colossians 3:5-6
5 Put to death, therefore, the components of your earthly nature: sexual immorality, impurity, lust, evil desires, and greed, which is idolatry. 6 Because of these, the wrath of God is coming on the sons of disobedience

Revelation 19:13
He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and his name is the Word of God.

Isaiah 36:2-4
Why is Your apparel red, And Your garments like the one who treads in the wine press?

"I have trodden the wine trough alone, And from the peoples there was no man with Me. I also trod them in My anger And trampled them in My wrath; And their lifeblood is sprinkled on My garments, And I stained all My raiment.

God is endless love. But he's still a holy, holy, holy, God. Let us all do our best to remain under his umbrella of protection by continuing to obey him, walking in his ways.

 

[Stephen63]

Roman 1 proves that all men are sinners and under the wrath of God something continued to 3.20. Romans 3. 21 on then says that it is through the Grace and mercy of God alone that man is freely saved through the redemption which in Christ Jesus.

Uuummm, you're one verse short, and it says nothing about the "Grace and mercy of God alone"

22even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction;

Dear reader, just how was he sooo close to this verse & missed it?

Indeed, that's missing the mark.

 

[truthhurts]

Uuummm, you're one verse short, and it says nothing about the "Grace and mercy of God alone"

22even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction;

Dear reader, just how was he sooo close to this verse & missed it?

Indeed, that's missing the mark.

Communicated Bible Knowledge runs rampant here huh?

 

[Chokmahiel]

All praise to the Holy God. All glory to the Holy Christ.

Matthew 7:7-12

[SUP]7 [/SUP]Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:
[SUP]8 [/SUP]For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.
[SUP]9 [/SUP]Or what man is there of you, whom if his son ask bread, will he give him a stone?
[SUP]10 [/SUP]Or if he ask a fish, will he give him a serpent?
[SUP]11 [/SUP]If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your Father which is in heaven give good things to them that ask him?
[SUP]12 [/SUP]Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets.

 

[Ariel82]

Uuummm, you're one verse short, and it says nothing about the "Grace and mercy of God alone"

22even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction;

Dear reader, just how was he sooo close to this verse & missed it?

Indeed, that's missing the mark.

Romans 3 clearly states that we are justified by faith and not by works of the law.

What are you getting at?

1. Do you believe we are all sinners?

2. Are we saved by grace through faith in Jesus or works of the law?

3. Is God's grace an example of His mercy?

********
21 But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from law, although the law and the prophets bear witness to it, 22 the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction; 23 since all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 they are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus, 25 whom God put forward as an expiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God’s righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins; 26 it was to prove at the present time that he himself is righteous and that he justifies him who has faith in Jesus.

27 Then what becomes of our boasting? It is excluded. On what principle? On the principle of works? No, but on the principle of faith.[c] 28 For we hold that a man is justified by faith apart from works of law.

 

[Ariel82]

The problem with such polls is it is down to the responder to interpret
what you mean. They could choose to agree to appear to be the same
or to disagree if they want to create an obvious split.

The group we are talking about intentionally want to appear to agree
by redefining what the words mean from their biblical meaning and then
say we have corrupted them, and they are right and we are apostate.

But somehow for you for them to apostate us is ok, but if we respond
you are being judgemental and unChrist like is wrong. So unfortunately
you are just playing both sides as if this makes sense and is the Lords
leading for you. Now for some defined groups I would actually agree with
your approach, but for these guys, not a chance.

I am reminded by the Lord the enemy is the father of lies. His ways are to
change everything, make things appear than that which is true and destroy
the good. So attacking righteous behaviour, changing the meaning of Gods
word and basic foundations, attacking normal bible believing christians as works
of the enemy, are all indications of which spiritual power?

You,have basically, judged them as corrupt men out to destroy you and God's work and they have judged you as the same.

I ask what if you are both wrong.
.
I started the poll and thread and see now where a lot of the misunderstanding has come from.

They don't like the way you say things and you don't like the way they say things.

Yeah if both of you refuse to forgive and pray for one another, then your right nothing will change.

However you both need to stop being hypocrites and saying you are following Jesus and His teachings.

Did Jesus say bless only those who agree with you?

If someone offends you, make sure they pay for it and remind of it years later?

I agree that Satan is the father of lies. He is able to get you to read a respond and make it say and mean something the person who posted it, totally didn't mean.

He does it to you and he does it to others on this forum.

He even fools me sometimes. Which is why I ask people to clarify what they mean because I don't want to assume that what Satan says they mean is true.

I have seen people attack SELF righteous behavior, but not the fact God's people should live godly lives.

Most people believe we should live godly lives. They just the works salvation gospels.

As for your accusation of its okay with me for them apostate you?

Ask yourself if that is really true?

If that was true would folks be telling at me for rebuking G777?

No what I want is for my brothers and sisters in Christ to stop being hypocrites and practice what they preach, instead of lying to themselves and standing on their SELF RIGHTEOUS anger and pride.

I want to see Jesus Christ love and compassion reflected and put forth in the forums instead of childish, immature speck picking unforgiving tantrums that revolve around misrepresentations of what the other person truly believes or spiritual immaturity that God is still helping them learn about.

I should edit typos but I am tired and if you really don't get it, just ask and I will explain what I mean.

 

[Ariel82]

What you are reading in is what you want to see.
Forgiveness comes because of Christ and His forgiveness and new life.
Now because I have worked through my areas of unforgiveness I cannot testify to
how if you do not forgive this blocks so much in ones life and destroys much of our
walk with Christ, but I know it does.

And the real point being made is the condition of needing to forgive because we have
been forgiven. This is very true.

And I know I can forgive others because I know what being a slave to sin is like and
how no one is really aware of what they are and what they are doing. It is a maelstrom
of stuff heading towards you, and something difficult will always fly out, which is often
the case here on cc.

I remember one cc member continually triggered strong attacks, but I knew it was stuff
in their life, not related to me, but I was the target. I would say all of what I have seen
is very similar, even when I share the simplest insights, it is wrong because I am sharing
it. Just quoting bible verses was implicated as hypocracy, and covering up, and I did not
believe them. Yet other members where happy to carry on as if this is sane sensible
behaviour.

And you Ariel say I am paranoid. It is easy to attack someone, intentionally, and then
claim they are paranoid, to add a twist to the strategy. That is what sin does to people.

It was interesting after days of this behaviour, the member in question confessed they were
being hard on me, because they had been the same many years before. All of this is projection
and excusing abuse, yet it is "spiritual" behaviour. These are not people driven by the Holy
Spirit, but some other driving motivations.

When I first came to CC, I had a member stalking me. So much so that they were banned for a season, but we later became friends and I treasure her as an older sister in Christ.

I didn't like her methods but her message was sound and biblical.

I don't stalk you into every thread.
.truthfully I have taken a break from forums.

I only really engage because I like you. If I didn't, I wouldn't waste time and effort trying to understand what you believe.

When Stephen called me phony as a three dollar bill, did you stand up and rebuke him?

No you laughed it off.

Yet I have stated over and over again, that I believe you are a beloved brother who is truly seeking God's truth.

I have called you out when I see you react out of hurt instead of God's love and I have tried my best to get others to view you as a beloved brother.

But you don't make it easy.

If God hadn't been so patient with me. I would have given up on you a long time ago.

I feel insulted.

Have I attacked you and then called you paranoid or are you talking about another member? (get this odd feeling you are talking about EG)

You know talking about other people instead of TO the other person is gossip, right?

Is that what you think of me, because if it is then I will stop trying to mediate peace and understand what you believe.

Really the basics is "how would you preach the gospel to a lost person?

I would love for people to stop looking for wolves and talk about sanctification. Which is what this thread could have been about.

 

[Ariel82]

Heads will explode when this is said, but here goes....Romans 1 proves to us that not everyone is covered by grace, contrary to many here and hirelings....Romans 1 proves what we have said all along, you are not saved by grace alone...Grace has to appropriated through personal faith....

Post against universalism...

Roman 1 proves that all men are sinners and under the wrath of God something continued to 3.20. Romans 3. 21 on then says that it is through the Grace and mercy of God alone that man is freely saved through the redemption which in Christ Jesus.

Grace is not appropriated, it is God acting to freely redeem those who then come to Christ. Man simply responds to His grace though faith.

Post about the power of God...

It's like folks are talking orange and apples...how does this work?

 

[Stephen63]

Romans 3 clearly states that we are justified by faith and not by works of the law.

What are you getting at?

1. Do you believe we are all sinners?

2. Are we saved by grace through faith in Jesus or works of the law?

3. Is God's grace an example of His mercy?

********
21 But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from law, although the law and the prophets bear witness to it, 22 the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction; 23 since all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 they are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus, 25 whom God put forward as an expiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God’s righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins; 26 it was to prove at the present time that he himself is righteous and that he justifies him who has faith in Jesus.

27 Then what becomes of our boasting? It is excluded. On what principle? On the principle of works? No, but on the principle of faith.[c] 28 For we hold that a man is justified by faith apart from works of law.

Ariel82, are you always wanting to be the center of attention, or you just like to bother people? You are now on ignore.

 

[Ariel82]

Colossians 3:5-6
5 Put to death, therefore, the components of your earthly nature: sexual immorality, impurity, lust, evil desires, and greed, which is idolatry. 6 Because of these, the wrath of God is coming on the sons of disobedience

Revelation 19:13
He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and his name is the Word of God.

Isaiah 36:2-4
Why is Your apparel red, And Your garments like the one who treads in the wine press?

"I have trodden the wine trough alone, And from the peoples there was no man with Me. I also trod them in My anger And trampled them in My wrath; And their lifeblood is sprinkled on My garments, And I stained all My raiment.

God is endless love. But he's still a holy, holy, holy, God. Let us all do our best to remain under his umbrella of protection by continuing to obey him, walking in his ways.

Is there a difference between how God disciplines his children and the rest of the world?

Why does the Bible say "perfect love cast out fear"?

Does our love have to be perfect/mature or does it refer to God's perfect love given to us?

I believe it refers to our love. When we are mature/perfect in the knowledge of Christ and add to our faith, virtue,knowledge, self control, perseverance, brotherly kindness and agape love, then we have no fear.

When we fall short of agape love them we should fear the chastenment of God.

That's is what I believe at least.

Some say it God's perfect love for us and I used to,believe it too but it doesn't make sense.

God gave me his perfect love and I was still afraid.
.it wasn't until I learned to love others and obey Him and His spiritual laws that I no longer was afraid.

 

[Chokmahiel]

All praise the Most High God whom will avenge the blood of the Holy Martyrs.

Matthew 5:38-44

[SUP]38 [/SUP]Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth:
[SUP]39 [/SUP]But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.
[SUP]40 [/SUP]And if any man will sue thee at the law, and take away thy coat, let him have thy cloak also.
[SUP]41 [/SUP]And whosoever shall compel thee to go a mile, go with him twain.
[SUP]42 [/SUP]Give to him that asketh thee, and from him that would borrow of thee turn not thou away.
[SUP]43 [/SUP]Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy.
[SUP]44 [/SUP]But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;