DANGER OF A FALSE PRE-TRIB RAPTURE

[LanceA]

Just think....there are basically 4 things that kill tribulation saints....hunger, the sword, disease and the beasts of the earth..........destiny favors the prepared which is biblical.....!

YEAH I KNOW.....for the naysayers....

Oh no, I believe in the pre-trib and I will be so unprepared if it doesn't happen that I am just going to freeze up and die. I love how the naysayers always say the pre-tribbers aren't going to be ready when it doesn't happen. Are you on some sort of post trib steroid we all should know about? You aren't doing anything different than people who are pre-tribbers. It isn't like you are on some special workout or anything.

 

[Ahwatukee]

Hi Issa: One can believe what they want to, however there is no such thing as a pre-trib rapture in the New testament, it was created by John Darby around 1830. People love it because it is a supposed way out of the tribulation. It is dangerous because it is a set up by Satan designed to cause a great falling away from the faith when Christ does not come as expected.

Once again samuel23, one would have to read and be a follower of John Darby in order for you claim to be true. I have personally never read anything by him nor any of those other's who are mentioned. I have done my own studies for over 40 years and my conclusions of the timing of the gathering of the church come directly from the word of God.

By your claim, you demonstrate that you have no understanding of What Christ truly did for all believers. When we receive Christ, like father Abraham, all believers are credited with righteousness and have been reconciled to God i.e. brought back into a right relationship with him. Jesus took upon himself the wrath that we deserve as a result of our sins, satisfying God's wrath completely. Yet, you people dishonor Christ by teaching that we must go through the wrath of God. It would as if the wrath that the Lord suffered meant nothing at all.

The wrath of God will be poured out via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments, which will be in operation throughout the entire seven years. During this time Jesus will initiate God's wrath by the opening of the first seal, followed by the rest of the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments. After the 7th bowl has been poured out, Jesus will return to the earth to end the age and those who will have previously resurrected and who were caught up will return with him.

The Lord is not going to build his church and then put it through his wrath.

You people need to wake up!

 

[Ahwatukee]

Oh no, I believe in the pre-trib and I will be so unprepared if it doesn't happen that I am just going to freeze up and die. I love how the naysayers always say the pre-tribbers aren't going to be ready when it doesn't happen. Are you on some sort of post trib steroid we all should know about? You aren't doing anything different than people who are pre-tribbers. It isn't like you are on some special workout or anything.

Hello LanceA,

Exactly! Those of us who have studied end-time events, know all about the antichrist, what he will do and how to identify him--which wouldn't be difficult at all. We will also know the actions and puropose of the false prophet. Their error is that, they think that our faith is based on when the gathering of the church takes place, which it is not. Our faith is based on Christ's shed blood, on His sacrifice.


For the sake of their foolish claim, if the church was to go through the wrath of God and be on earth during the time of the antichrist, I would go directly to God and pray for the strengthening of my faith and that God would give me the ability to go through his wrath and to resist the beast, his image and his mark. If we were here during the time of the antichrist, we of all people would recognize him and the false prophet immediately.

It is absurd for them to think that if that gathering of the church doesn't take place prior to God's wrath, that our attitude would be to give up because the time of the churches gathering didn't happen the way that we expected it to.

They dishonor the Lord by not recognizing that God's wrath was already poured out on Him and therefore has been satisfied. For believers to go through God's wrath it would be like a double payment and as though Christ had done nothing.

 

[Johnny_B]

Hi Issa: One can believe what they want to, however there is no such thing as a pre-trib rapture in the New testament, it was created by John Darby around 1830. People love it because it is a supposed way out of the tribulation. It is dangerous because it is a set up by Satan designed to cause a great falling away from the faith when Christ does not come as expected.

The great falling away is an apostasy of the faith, it's not believers falling away or apostatizing. I John 2:18-19 "Little children, it is the last hour; and as you have heard that the Antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come, by which we know that it is the last hour. 19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us."

Those that are apostate are not of us, they were around us, they fall away to show us that they were not of us and are antichrists. I always understand the pre-trib rapture to be after the son of perdition was revealed, but anyway.

Can I get someone to answer this for me, because I'm wondering if the sign of His coming, is the rapture and the end of the end is His literal coming to earth, can someone help out here? Because the way I read it is, the disciples asked, when will these things happen (destruction of the Temple), the sign of your coming is in the sky after the sun and the moon change, after that the sign of His coming. 24:30 "Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory."

After the sign of His coming, the whole world will mourn, and they will see the Son Of Man coming in power and great glory. It doesn't say and then they will see the Son of Man coming. There a separation between the sign of His coming and His coming in power and great glory. Because when He comes in His glory, He will sit in His tone and judge the nations. 25:31 "“When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory."

There is not two second comings, what I'm seeing is a sign of His coming which is in the sky, the earth mourns after the sign. Verse 36 "of that day no one knows the hour or the day", what day? It seem to me it's referring back to the day that the sign of the Son of Man coming. Then after He says He didn't know or the angels. He starts talking about days Noah and two in the field, one taken one left. 24:44 "Therefore you also be ready, for the Son of Man is coming at an hour you do not expect." Placing the same expectancy that John place on it, by saying it's the last hour or any time the end is coming. Then the parables and 25:31 The Son of Man comes to the earth in His glory, His second coming, not the sign of His coming in chapter 24.

Help me out here, from what I'm reading, there's is a sign of His coming in the sky, after that people are taken, then His has a gap with teaching, then His coming to the earth in His glory to sit in His throne. It seems to me that the sign of His coming is the gathering. His coming to earth He gathers the nations to judge them.

I need help, I getting confused.

 

[joaniemarie]

​The key component is knowing Jesus took all our judgment already. It also causes us to live joyful lives today because there is therefore now NO condemnation Romans 8:1

8 There is therefore now no condemnation to them that are in Christ Jesus.

Knowing there is no more guilt and condemnation from a Holy God will change your life. God is not mad at you. God is not wanting you to "pay" for your failures. Jesus has done it all for us who accept His sacrifice. God so loved the world that He gave His only Begotten Son. The love of God is shed abroad in our hearts. This changes our life and is a compass through the problems that come our way in the days we live here on earth.

WHAT A GIFT!!!!!! "Thanks be to God for His unspeakable gift"

How do people go through life wondering that if they should go through the tribulation and fail., and also through every day life and fail., which ever comes first ., they will then go to hell? God wants us to be walking in the confidence of His love for us. Depending on the power of His Son dying and shedding His blood on the cross and then rising again on the 3rd day all for our redemption. Not on our ability and how strong we are. Why did Jesus come if we could do it ourselves? Do Christians believe God is somehow impressed with our sweat????

 

[RickyZ]

Oh no, I believe in the pre-trib and I will be so unprepared if it doesn't happen that I am just going to freeze up and die. I love how the naysayers always say the pre-tribbers aren't going to be ready when it doesn't happen. Are you on some sort of post trib steroid we all should know about? You aren't doing anything different than people who are pre-tribbers. It isn't like you are on some special workout or anything.

We've stockpiled food water medical supplies and living essentials in a "bomb shelter" (for lack of a better term) in preparation for it (and any other disaster). Who would do that if they believed they weren't going to need it? God told Noah to build a boat in preparation for the trial he and his family would see fall upon the world. Suppose Noah didn't believe God would put him thru such a thing and didn't build the boat? Would God have enabled Noah to dogpaddle all that time?

Secondly, it's not like God is going to throw a light switch and declare the tribulation as "on". Tribulation began with Christ's ascension and continues to escalate with every generation. What we will see in the end is but a final escalation to levels never seen before. But it's not going to be a clear cut well defined point in time.

 

[RickyZ]

DERP.

Since we are still decades away from said taking place, shouldn't we be concerned about more urgent matters?

Luke 12:20“But God said to him, ‘You fool! This very night your life will be demanded from you.

That's another thing people don't get. That heart attack, that car crash, that your-ticket-is-punched moment is YOUR rapture, baby! And it could come right now!

 

[RickyZ]

The word says the AC kills all refusing the mark. Not some,or a few,but ALL.

If you stay,you stay without a head.

Not sure if you will get ahead at that point. Lol

But what conflict with the word can you offer us?

Or maybe you are unaware of your omission in your doctrine?

Another good point. The 'rapture' will not involve very many people, because most of us will have been carted off to be slain for Christ before then. This idea of millions just disappearing is extremely false.

 

[PrynceNY]

There are countless people who have received visions of a pre-tribulation rapture. Pray that you are counted worthy.

 

[RickyZ]

One of my greatest concerns about the (I believe, false) teaching of the pretrib rapture is all the people who will have a crisis of faith when they realize that they are in the tribulation and they can no longer believe what they have been taught about the Bible. They have come to rely on man made doctrine instead of the living Christ of the Bible. Then, when they need Christ most of all, they will question everything they have been taught about the Bible, including the death burial and resurrection of the Savior.

Exactly. Everyone knows about the 'antichrist', but few the apostasy. Paul put them on equal footing. Jesus said that in the end many will turn away from Him because they are not prepared for what they will face. There will indeed be a mass defection of faith when some find out their escape never materialized.

 

[notuptome]

The fundamental error here is that the tribulation is a Jewish event not a church event. The anti-Christ is to deceive Israel not the church.

Probably too dispensational for many of you but it is the truth.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[EarnestQ]

The great falling away is an apostasy of the faith, it's not believers falling away or apostatizing. I John 2:18-19 "Little children, it is the last hour; and as you have heard that the Antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come, by which we know that it is the last hour. 19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us."

Those that are apostate are not of us, they were around us, they fall away to show us that they were not of us and are antichrists. I always understand the pre-trib rapture to be after the son of perdition was revealed, but anyway.

Can I get someone to answer this for me, because I'm wondering if the sign of His coming, is the rapture and the end of the end is His literal coming to earth, can someone help out here? Because the way I read it is, the disciples asked, when will these things happen (destruction of the Temple), the sign of your coming is in the sky after the sun and the moon change, after that the sign of His coming. 24:30 "Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory."

After the sign of His coming, the whole world will mourn, and they will see the Son Of Man coming in power and great glory. It doesn't say and then they will see the Son of Man coming. There a separation between the sign of His coming and His coming in power and great glory. Because when He comes in His glory, He will sit in His tone and judge the nations. 25:31 "“When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory."

There is not two second comings, what I'm seeing is a sign of His coming which is in the sky, the earth mourns after the sign. Verse 36 "of that day no one knows the hour or the day", what day? It seem to me it's referring back to the day that the sign of the Son of Man coming. Then after He says He didn't know or the angels. He starts talking about days Noah and two in the field, one taken one left. 24:44 "Therefore you also be ready, for the Son of Man is coming at an hour you do not expect." Placing the same expectancy that John place on it, by saying it's the last hour or any time the end is coming. Then the parables and 25:31 The Son of Man comes to the earth in His glory, His second coming, not the sign of His coming in chapter 24.

Help me out here, from what I'm reading, there's is a sign of His coming in the sky, after that people are taken, then His has a gap with teaching, then His coming to the earth in His glory to sit in His throne. It seems to me that the sign of His coming is the gathering. His coming to earth He gathers the nations to judge them.

I need help, I getting confused.

I think the simplest outline is the tribulation starting when the man of sin is revealed. Jesus said this in Mt 24. Then we will have 3 1/2 years of hell on earth known as the Great Tribulation. Then at the last (seventh) trumpet, we will be resurrected to meet Christ in the air. Then the Day of God's wrath occurs and the battle of Armegeddon. This could be for 30 or 45 days after the translation of the saints. Then the Millenium starts.

There is no 7 year time period to worry about. That comes from a mistranslation of Dan 9:27.

 

[Issachar92]

Hello Earnest,

What you are referring to above is a well known and well used apologetic. I have never read anything by Darby or Edward Irving. My conclusion of the timing of the gathering of the church comes from cross-referencing and comparing scripture, with the confirmation of the Holy Spirit.

When a believer receives Christ as Lord and savior, that person is credited with righteousness and has been reconciled to God. The wrath that we deserve as a result of our sins, was satisfied by Christ, fully and completely. That being true, the Lord is not going to send his church through his wrath, when Christ was already held accountable for it. Anyone who says otherwise does not understand what Christ truly did for us and does not understand the severity of the coming wrath of God nor does that person understand who God's wrath will be directed at. God is not going to punish the righteous with the unrighteous.

In the letter to Philadelphia, Jesus said "because you have you have kept my command to endure patiently, I will also keep you out of the time of tribulation that is coming upon the whole world to test those dwell upon the earth."

Jesus told his disciples and all believers, that he was going to the Father's house to prepare rooms for us and that he would come back and take us back to the Father's house, so that where he is we may be also. 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17 is a detailed account of that event when Jesus returns to gather his church. Since scripture makes it clear that we are not appointed to suffer wrath, then believers will not go through it, but will be removed before the day of the Lord, the time of God's wrath.

You just did the thing I posted earlier, we arent appointed to God's wrath (which is true) and that Jesus will gather the church before the first seal is opened by Jesus (makes a lot of sense)

All good so far, then you proceed to quote 1 thessalonians 4:13-17 which discusses this gathering, but notice when it happens(the gathering) at "the COMING OF THE LORD".

So now, as i said earlier, pre-trib rapture is very logical, makes a lot of sense, but I find in scripture that the gathering(rapture) happens at the COMING OF THE LORD: So now my question is this: If someone can prove to me there is more than one coming of the Lord, I will be a pre-trib rapture believer INSTANTLY, because it does make sense logically

 

[Johnny_B]

I think the simplest outline is the tribulation starting when the man of sin is revealed. Jesus said this in Mt 24. Then we will have 3 1/2 years of hell on earth known as the Great Tribulation. Then at the last (seventh) trumpet, we will be resurrected to meet Christ in the air. Then the Day of God's wrath occurs and the battle of Armegeddon. This could be for 30 or 45 days after the translation of the saints. Then the Millenium starts.

There is no 7 year time period to worry about. That comes from a mistranslation of Dan 9:27.

Is that supposed to be the answer to my question? Because I didn't ask anything about the GT. My question is, what is the sign of the coming of the Son of Man, because it's not His second coming, because that with power and great glory and He sits in His throne of glory. This is the third time I've asked this question. But all these rapture false doctrine guys don't seem to want to answer it. I know the end of the age is His second coming Matthew 25:31.

Again what is the sign of His coming if it's not the gathering what is it, because it is really bugging me. Reason being is between the sign and the end of the age, Jesus talks about two living life and one taken one left, what's that about?

 

[EarnestQ]

Hello Earnest,

What you are referring to above is a well known and well used apologetic. I have never read anything by Darby or Edward Irving. My conclusion of the timing of the gathering of the church comes from cross-referencing and comparing scripture, with the confirmation of the Holy Spirit.

When a believer receives Christ as Lord and savior, that person is credited with righteousness and has been reconciled to God. The wrath that we deserve as a result of our sins, was satisfied by Christ, fully and completely. That being true, the Lord is not going to send his church through his wrath, when Christ was already held accountable for it. Anyone who says otherwise does not understand what Christ truly did for us and does not understand the severity of the coming wrath of God nor does that person understand who God's wrath will be directed at. God is not going to punish the righteous with the unrighteous.

In the letter to Philadelphia, Jesus said "because you have you have kept my command to endure patiently, I will also keep you out of the time of tribulation that is coming upon the whole world to test those dwell upon the earth."

Jesus told his disciples and all believers, that he was going to the Father's house to prepare rooms for us and that he would come back and take us back to the Father's house, so that where he is we may be also. 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17 is a detailed account of that event when Jesus returns to gather his church. Since scripture makes it clear that we are not appointed to suffer wrath, then believers will not go through it, but will be removed before the day of the Lord, the time of God's wrath.

I agree with you that we will not go through God's wrath. It is my understanding that the Day of God's wrath begins when the saints are harvested/resurrected at the last trumpet after 3 1/2 years of tribulation. (I also am convinced that there is no 7 year end time period.)

Regarding never having read anything by Irving or Darby, I accept that is the case with you. However, much of the Scofield Bible is taken from Darby's Dispensationalism.

"I am convinced" that one cannot come up with a pre-trib rapture by Bible study alone. "I am convinced" that one must be taught it, and Darby is one who is largely responsible for it being taught in the US and Canada.

 

[EarnestQ]

Is that supposed to be the answer to my question? Because I didn't ask anything about the GT. My question is, what is the sign of the coming of the Son of Man, because it's not His second coming, because that with power and great glory and He sits in His throne of glory. This is the third time I've asked this question. But all these rapture false doctrine guys don't seem to want to answer it. I know the end of the age is His second coming Matthew 25:31.

Again what is the sign of His coming if it's not the gathering what is it, because it is really bugging me. Reason being is between the sign and the end of the age, Jesus talks about two living life and one taken one left, what's that about?

I concede I didn't actually answer your question. I apologize. I didn't clearly understand your question.

 

[popeye]

Another good point. The 'rapture' will not involve very many people, because most of us will have been carted off to be slain for Christ before then. This idea of millions just disappearing is extremely false.

Millions don't"disappear".

Millions resurrect,and millions go up alive and meet them in the air.

 

[Johnny_B]

I concede I didn't actually answer your question. I apologize. I didn't clearly understand your question.

No worries, the disciples ask three questions in one, when will these things be (the Temple), what is the sign of your coming and the end of the age?

Now in Matthew 24:30 He speaks of the sign of His coming, that people will mourn when they see it, then it seems to split it with after a comma, then they will see the Son of Man coming with power and great glory. This is the answer to the second question, the sign of His coming. Then He give the lesson of the fig tree, then He talks about people just living life, then two are working one is taken one is left. He teaches some parables. Then in 25:31 He talks about the end of the age, which is His coming to earth with glory and sits in His throne to judge the nations.

What is the sign of His coming that is in the sky, but He still doesn't come to earth?

 

[EarnestQ]

The fundamental error here is that the tribulation is a Jewish event not a church event. The anti-Christ is to deceive Israel not the church.

Probably too dispensational for many of you but it is the truth.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

The error is in thinking that the tribulation is a Jewish event not a church event. There is nothing in the Bible that makes that distinction. It comes from "wrongly dividing the word of truth" into Jewish and non-Jewish passages, a hallmark of Dispensationalism. This distinction was first created at the Albury Prophesy Conferences and later migrated to John Darby who used it to keep Mt 24 from applying to the church. Scofield got it from Darby and put it in his Bible notes.

 

[MattTooFor]

The fundamental error here is that the tribulation is a Jewish event not a church event. The anti-Christ is to deceive Israel not the church.

Probably too dispensational for many of you but it is the truth.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

The error of your statement becomes apparent when you put yourself in the shoes of Peter, James, John and Andrew...who were told directly by Jesus (in the Olivet Discourse) to expect to encounter the Abomination of Desolation, followed by the Great Tribulation, followed by the great and glorious Gathering of the believers.

What did Peter, James and John believe when they went out from the Olivet Discourse? Answer: They believed what Jesus told them.

What did Jesus tell them? Answer: To look for the Abomination.

According to PreTrib, that is false doctrine. According to PreTrib, Peter, James and John believed false doctrine.

If you could have pulled Peter or James aside, two weeks after the Olivet Discourse, or a year, or ten years...and ask them - "So, do you still heed the words of Jesus from the Olivet Discourse?"...

...what else do you think they would have said other than "well of course we still heed Jesus' words. Why wouldn't we? Has someone come up with contradictory words? And how could someone (like this Tim LaHaye or John MacArthur you speak of) CONTRADICT Jesus' words?"

The point is...if you, "notuptome", do not have the same beliefs which Peter, James and John had when they went out from the Olivet Discourse...THEN YOU HAVE THE WRONG BELIEFS.

And that's another HUGE irony regarding PreTrib -- It is FORCED to concede it views Jesus as having taught false doctrine to Peter, James and John...since, obviously, they went out from the Olivet Discourse carrying false beliefs and false doctrines.