The Rapture More False Teachings

[popeye]

I have read not one mention of any such thing as a Rapture not one. I have read of the Lord's return which will happen after the antichrist has had his turn. To think God has to remove anyone from his wrath is BUNK. He will protect us from his wrath just as he has protected his children from all the other tribulation past. He is able. How miss-understood.

Are you the one that says there is no resurrection?....just wondering. I can't remember which anti pretrib said it.

But God has raptured several already. So there is a good starting place to get a handle on the subject.

So your task would be,does he do it again,or is the bible fantasy,in that maybe you are not in agreement with the concept.

1thes 4 has the bride,from mat 25 rising to meet the resurrected and raptured dead Christians in the sky.

What should we call that dynamic you say isn't there?

Btw,there is only so much bizarre non biblical mess you can recklessly throw out before you end up taking yourself out of intelligent discussion

 

[truthhurts]

Are you the one that says there is no resurrection?....just wondering. I can't remember which anti pretrib said it.

But God has raptured several already. So there is a good starting place to get a handle on the subject.

So your task would be,does he do it again,or is the bible fantasy,in that maybe you are not in agreement with the concept.

1thes 4 has the bride,from mat 25 rising to meet the resurrected and raptured dead Christians in the sky.

What should we call that dynamic you say isn't there?

Btw,there is only so much bizarre non biblical mess you can recklessly throw out before you end up taking yourself out of intelligent discussion

1 Thess 4 is about those that die and how they will be resurrected and not anything to do with a "rapture"...dispensation heresy uses this completely out of context....1 Thess 4 is just another, smaller version of 1 Cor 15, which is also about resurrection not rapture....

 

[GaryA]

What happened to the 7 years? Or 3 1/2?

There is no "7 years"; however, there is a 3.5-year period - during which the Two Witnesses give their testimony and "wreak havok" on the world with prophetic 'commands' which produce various 'plagues' - which we know as the 'Trumpet' events - all of which is / are 'post-trib'.

 

[PlainWord]

The sooner people realize that the Great Tribulation of Mat 24, Mark 13, Luke 21, happened in AD 70, the better. "Only those in Judea were told to flee." When you see armies surrounding the city.".etc. The only question I have is what supernatural events happened back then and what is left?

The wrath of God poured out on that Faithless and perverse generation is clear. It happened along with everything from the "beginnings of sorrow." Why can't ppl see this?

 

[PlainWord]

There is no "7 years"; however, there is a 3.5-year period - during which the Two Witnesses give their testimony and "wreak havok" on the world with prophetic 'commands' which produce various 'plagues' - which we know as the 'Trumpet' events - all of which is / are 'post-trib'.

Post trib - Yes. But how many years after the Trib?

 

[popeye]

1 Thess 4 is about those that die and how they will be resurrected and not anything to do with a "rapture"...dispensation heresy uses this completely out of context....1 Thess 4 is just another, smaller version of 1 Cor 15, which is also about resurrection not rapture....

Rapture is going up into heaven in bodily form.

Refute that dynamic.

Refute elijah,enoch,the 2 witnesses,Jesus,and then,1 thes 4.

Do all the others first,THEN 1 thes 4.
And show me how rising up bodily into the atmosphere,as with all the others I listed, is not the same dynamic in 1 thes 4

Are you misunderstanding the difference between resurrection,and bodily ascending into heaven?

 

[popeye]

The sooner people realize that the Great Tribulation of Mat 24, Mark 13, Luke 21, happened in AD 70, the better. "Only those in Judea were told to flee." When you see armies surrounding the city.".etc. The only question I have is what supernatural events happened back then and what is left?

The wrath of God poured out on that Faithless and perverse generation is clear. It happened along with everything from the "beginnings of sorrow." Why can't ppl see this?

Most everyone is aware that there have NOT been flying scorpions,hailstones of fire, and a worldwide mark requirement.

So,never has been a GT described in rev.

You need to read the segment "......such as has never been,or ever will..."

Then re - evaluate

 

[GaryA]

It tells us in the scripture........and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

Jesus gave them their White Robes, so they are deemed of God just like the Church in Heaven, but they must wait for the Seven Year period to end before they are raised from the dead, of course, when Jesus Returns (Rev. 19). Jesus told them to wait until their Fellowservants should be KILLED ALSO, meaning the Anti-Christ is not finished with his murderous ways yet, the time is not up. It is the 5TH SEAL, then we have two more Seals, Seven Trumpets and Seven Vials yet to come.

So Jesus tells them to wait, they have more brothers who will be killed also before the Anti-Christs reign of terror is up.

That is all that means.....After Jesus returns then the Judgment Seats are set up.....20:4, and the Beheaded are officially made whole.

The how long is EXPLAINED by Jesus telling them TILL YOUR BROTHERS ARE KILLED ALSO.....That was his point. When the Anti-Christs 42 Months is up, that is how long.

Those ON EARTH killed them. Thus it is not Christians of old because people on earth NOW couldn't have killed them. That's my point brother.

So -- exactly what point in time - in Revelation Prophecy - do you consider the last-of-the-last of the fellowservants-who-are-also-killed to be killed? The end of the 42 months? What verse(s) or passage(s) in Revelation indicate(s) or point(s) directly to that point in time? How does all of this align with the rest of Revelation?

 

[GaryA]

Post trib - Yes. But how many years after the Trib?

"Immediately after" -- according to Matthew 24.

 

[GaryA]

Good Morning Stephen63,

As I continue to say, when people say things like GaryA did "we are in the great tribulation period now" they have no understanding of the severity and magnitude of God's coming wrath via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments. If we're in the great tribulation right now, it's not affecting my life whatsoever. When it does take place, it will be what Jesus said it would be, "a time of great tribulation such as the world has not seen from the beginning, until now and never to be equaled again. If those days had not been shortened, no one would be left alive."

During that time, no one will have to ask, "has the wrath of God started?" It will all be too terribly apparent for those on the earth during that time.

They don't pay attention to that fact that, with just the 4th seal and 6th trumpet alone there will be about half the earth's population killed. And that is not including trumpets 1,2 and 3 nor the fatalities as a result of the bowl judgments.

You keep saying these things strictly from your own perspective - which is fine - however, understand that - from my perspective -- the 4th seal is during-trib, and the 6th trumpet is post-trib and before the 'Wrath of God'.

My 'perspective' is based strictly on Order of Events and how the Bible defines such things as what we call the Great Tribulation.

 

[GaryA]

The sooner people realize that the Great Tribulation of Mat 24, Mark 13, Luke 21, happened in AD 70, the better. "Only those in Judea were told to flee." When you see armies surrounding the city.".etc. The only question I have is what supernatural events happened back then and what is left?

The wrath of God poured out on that Faithless and perverse generation is clear. It happened along with everything from the "beginnings of sorrow." Why can't ppl see this?

I agree that the Great Tribulation started ~70 A.D. However, the only biblical indication concerning the end of it is Matthew 24:29 / Mark 13:24. It starts with the AoD, and ends right before the "signs" in the sun, moon, and stars. This has not happened, yet. I believe these things are literally part of the 'Trumpet' events - which I believe the Two Witnesses literally bring about during their 3.5-year testimony-to-the-world. Jesus comes after that. The 'Wrath of God' comes after that.

 

[GaryA]

My 'perspective' is based strictly on Order of Events and how the Bible defines such things as what we call the Great Tribulation.

For example...

To me - the following verses in Matthew 24 define what 'Great Tribulation' is - from an 'event' perspective:


Matthew 24:

[SUP]21[/SUP] For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

[SUP]29[/SUP] Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:


Verse 21 defines / declares the beginning of it and verse 29 defines / declares the ending of it. So then, we know when it begins ( right after the AoD ) and when it ends ( right before the "signs" in the sun, moon, and stars ).

Both did not happen in 70 A.D. Both cannot happen in the future. What are we left with?

The beginning of it was in 70 A.D. The ending of it is still yet future.

 

[Ahwatukee]

For example...

To me - the following verses in Matthew 24 define what 'Great Tribulation' is - from an 'event' perspective:


Matthew 24:

[SUP]21[/SUP] For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

[SUP]29[/SUP] Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:


Verse 21 defines / declares the beginning of it and verse 29 defines / declares the ending of it. So then, we know when it begins ( right after the AoD ) and when it ends ( right before the "signs" in the sun, moon, and stars ).

Both did not happen in 70 A.D. Both cannot happen in the future. What are we left with?

The beginning of it was in 70 A.D. The ending of it is still yet future.

Good evening GaryA,

The great tribulation period begins with Jesus quoting Daniel 9:27:

"So when you see standing in the holy place ‘the abomination that causes desolation,’[SUP]a[/SUP] spoken of through the prophet Daniel—let the reader understand—16then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.17Let no one on the housetop go down to take anything out of the house.18Let no one in the field go back to get their cloak.19How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers!20Pray that your flight will not take place in winter or on the Sabbath.21For then there will be great tribulation, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now—and never to be equaled again.

22“If those days had not been cut short, no one would survive, but for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened.

In the scripture above, verses 15 thru 20 are describing the events of the tribulation, which begins with the setting up of the abomination and which causes the desolation. Verse 21 declares those events just mentioned as the great tribulation.

According to Dan.9:27, the setting up of the abomination marks the middle of that last seven years, with verses 29 thru 31 completing the last 3 1/2 years with Jesus returning to the earth to end the age.

During the entire seven years, God's wrath will be poured out via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments, with the setting up of the abomination initiating the great tribulation." The reason that it is called the great tribulation, is because at the time that the abomination is set up, is when that antichrist stands in the temple proclaiming himself to be God (2 Thes.2:4). It is also the time when the woman/Israel flees out into the desert (the desolation) to that place prepared for her by God (Rev.12:6,14). It is also during that last 3 1/2 years that the beast will make war and conquer the great tribulation saints (Rev.13:5-7)ll

Verse 29 where the sun and moon are darkened and the heavens are shaken, is the sign that takes place at the end of the great tribulation which signals Christ's immediate return to the earth to end the age. Verse 30 is the event of the second coming when Jesus returns to the earth to which ends the age. Verse 31 takes place at the same time that Jesus returns to the earth, with his angels going out and collecting the righteous, those great tribulation saints who will have made it alive through God's wrath and the beasts reign. The great tribulation saints, along with Israel, will be those who will repopulate the earth during the millennial period.

 

[Johnny_B]

The sooner people realize that the Great Tribulation of Mat 24, Mark 13, Luke 21, happened in AD 70, the better. "Only those in Judea were told to flee." When you see armies surrounding the city.".etc. The only question I have is what supernatural events happened back then and what is left?

The wrath of God poured out on that Faithless and perverse generation is clear. It happened along with everything from the "beginnings of sorrow." Why can't ppl see this?

Matthew24:15 "So when you see the abomination of desolation spoken of by the prophet Daniel, standing in the holy place (let the reader understand),16 then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains."

Daniel 9:26-27 "And after the sixty-two weeks Messiah shall be cut off, but not for Himself; and the people of the prince who is to come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary. the end of it shall be with a flood, and till the end of the war desolations are determined." Daniel is saying more than one desolation are determined. 27 "Then he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week; but in the middle of the week He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering. and on the wing of abominations shall be one who makes desolate, even until the consummation, which is determined, is poured out on the desolate.”

Titus did not make a covenant with many nor did he put an end to sacrifice and offerings in the middle of any 7 year covenant and the consummation or the regeneration of the earth and heaven have not happened yet either, so there's another desolation coming, where that prince to come will stand in the Temple and proclaim himself God, Titus did not do that either, so he did not fully fulfill Matthew 24:21, with understanding from Daniel.

Matthew 24:15, 21 "So when you see the abomination of desolation spoken of by the prophet Daniel, standing in the holy place (let the reader understand),.....For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been from the beginning of the world until now, no, and never will be." 1.1 million Jews killed, Hitler 6 million killed, the 20 million the Stalin killed were the majority Jews, but they did want anyone to know that because we were allies. So we've seen greater tribulation then 70 A.D. I see "until now, no" as up until Titus there and never been a garter tribulation on Jerusalem, "and never will be" is yet to come, because as stated, we've seen greater since Titus. We know Messiah the Prince has been cut-off, but we have not seen the prince to come, if you think this is talking about the same person as in Jesus, did the Christians destroy the city and the sanctuary? No! Did Titus make a covenant with any for 7 years and stop sacrifice and offerings? No! Titus did not fulfill all of it, only part of it.

If you think Jesus is the prince to come, why is it a lower case "p" and why doesn't it have the definite article in front of prince? Because he's not Jesus! It is very clear that Titus did not fulfill all of what's written in Matthew or Daniel 11:36-37 "Then the king shall do according to his own will: he shall exalt and magnify himself above every god, shall speak blasphemies against the God of gods, and shall prosper till the wrath has been accomplished; for what has been determined shall be done. 37 He shall regard neither the God of his fathers nor the desire of women, nor regard any god; for he shall exalt himself above them all."
As stated above Titus did not do any of these is 36 and he doesn't fit 37, he followed the Roman religion and he was married with children. "the God of his fathers nor desire of women" has many thinking that the antichrist will be Jewish and gay. Which if the Jews are going to follow him as their leader he would have to be Jewish and God is upper case with the definite article in front of it. Makes me wonder if this is true.

 

[GaryA]

The great tribulation period begins with Jesus quoting Daniel 9:27:

Jesus never quotes Daniel 9:27.

 

[J7]

well he references it, subtle difference I guess

 

[GaryA]

Johnny_B:


Daniel 9:

[SUP]24[/SUP] Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy. [SUP]25[/SUP] Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times. [SUP]26[/SUP] And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined. [SUP]27[/SUP] And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.


The part of verse 26 that is highlighted above is an "aside"; the "thought process" in the "flow" of the language of the verse "steps aside" temporarily and then comes back at the beginning of verse 27 - to continue where it left off... What is said within it has nothing [ directly ] to do with any part of the rest of the passage. In "thought process" terms, it is 'isolated' from the rest of the passage. It is referring to the events of ~70 A.D. and its aftermath. The only other part of the passage making reference to the events of ~70 A.D. is the last part of verse 27, starting with the words "and for the overspreading of abominations" ( all the way to the end of the verse ).

The word 'Prince' in verse 25 is undeniably referring to Jesus.

The word 'prince' in verse 26 is undeniably referring to Titus.

 

[GaryA]

well he references it, subtle difference I guess

Nope.

He does, however, make reference to Daniel 11:31; 12:11 - which are the same - but, which are not the same as Daniel 9:27.


Daniel 11:

[SUP]31[/SUP] And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily sacrifice, and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate.


Daniel 12:

[SUP]11[/SUP] And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.

 

[J7]

Nonsense. Daniel 11 & 12 refer to Antiochus Epiphanes. Daniel 9 refers to the Romans.

In a sense Jesus references all 3 verses, but in particular it is Daniel 9 that he refers to.

Nope.

He does, however, make reference to Daniel 11:31; 12:11 - which are the same - but, which are not the same as Daniel 9:27.


Daniel 11:

[SUP]31[/SUP] And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily sacrifice, and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate.


Daniel 12:

[SUP]11[/SUP] And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.

 

[GaryA]

Further explanation:

And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate. ~ Daniel 9:27

And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily sacrifice, and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate. ~ Daniel 11:31

And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days. ~ Daniel 12:11

Let's see...

For the verses in Daniel 11 & 12:

'the abomination' (singular) that [ itself ] "maketh desolate"

For the verse in Daniel 9:

"because of the 'proliferation and extent' of abominations" (plural) - 'he' ( Christ [ or, a person - and not the abomination itself ] ) - shall make [it] desolate

I do not believe that Daniel 9:27 is identically the same as the other two. I believe it is more probable that the abomination spoken of in Daniel 11 & 12 is one of the abominations spoken of in Daniel 9. I think Daniel 9 is "looking at a bigger picture" in this regard.

Consider the idea that God had the temple destroyed so the Jews would not "unwittingly" continue to commit abominations in the form of making sacrifices in the [physical] temple after Christ's resurrection. Since He was the "one-time sufficient sacrifice" -- and, since God afterward "made His abode" in "a temple not made with hands" - a spiritual temple by the Holy Spirit indwelling believers -- sacrifices made [to God] in the [physical] temple would be abominations in of themselves.

I believe that "shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease" in Daniel 9:27 is speaking of the moment Christ died and the veil was rent:

And the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom. ~ Mark 15:38

The other two verses, of course, are speaking of that same "abomination of desolation" mentioned in Matthew 24 and Mark 13 -- which I personally believe had to have occurred some time just before 70 A.D.

I believe that the desolation spoken of in Daniel 9:27 does most certainly apply to the events circa 70 A.D.

The phrase "even until the consummation" tells me that there will not be another temple built before the Second Coming of Christ.

( Enough for now -- I got to get to bed sometime... )