are there any universalists here?????
- Thread starter Muzungu256
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People here don't even understand what 'Eternal Punishment' means.
I'll try and explain it...
"Little Johnny's parents decide not to give Little Johnny his allowance for two weeks"
^^^
That is a temporary punishment
"Little Johnny's parents decide not to give Little Johnny his allowance for all of eternity"
^^^
That is an eternal punishment
Note that Little Johnny isn't being brutally tortured for ever and ever.
Does anyone see the difference?
I'll try and explain it...
"Little Johnny's parents decide not to give Little Johnny his allowance for two weeks"
^^^
That is a temporary punishment
"Little Johnny's parents decide not to give Little Johnny his allowance for all of eternity"
^^^
That is an eternal punishment
Note that Little Johnny isn't being brutally tortured for ever and ever.
Does anyone see the difference?
There are quite a few places in the Bible where forever is not
meant to be taken to mean without end. Here are a few of them:
Sodom's fiery judgment is 'eternal' (Jude 7) - until...
God 'will restore the fortunes of Sodom' (Eze. 16:53-55).
Israel's 'affliction is incurable' (Jeremiah 30:12) - until... the
Lord 'will restore health' and heal her wounds (Jeremiah 30:17).
The sin of Samaria 'is incurable' (Micah 1:9) - until...
Lord 'will restore the fortunes of Samaria.' (Ez. 16:53).
Ammon is to become a 'wasteland forever' and 'rise no more'
(Zephaniah 2:9, Jeremiah 25:27) - until... the Lord will 'restore
the fortunes of the Ammonites' (Jeremiah 49:6).
An Ammonite or Moabite is forbidden to enter the Lord's
congregation 'forever' - until... the tenth generation (Deuteronomy 23:3).
Habakkuk tells us of mountains that were 'everlasting',
that is - until... they 'were shattered' (Habakkuk 3 3:6).
The Aaronic Priesthood was to be an 'everlasting' priesthood (Exodus 40:15),
that is - until... it was superceded by the Melchizedek Priesthood (Hebrews 7:14-18).
Many translations of the Bible inform us that God would dwell in Solomon's
Temple 'forever' (1 Kings 8:13), that is - until... the Temple was destroyed.
The Law of Moses was to be an 'everlasting covenant' (Leviticus 24:8), yet we read in the New Covenant the first was 'done away' and 'abolished' (2 Corinthians 3:11,13), and God 'made the first old' (Hebrews 8:13).
The fire for Israel's sin offering (of a ram without blemish) is never to be put out. It shall be a 'perpetual' - until... Christ, the Lamb of God, dies for our sins. We now have a better covenant established on better promises (Leviticus 6:12-13, Hebrews 8:6-13).
God's waves of wrath roll over Jonah 'forever' - until... the Lord delivers
him from the large fish's belly on the third day (Jonah 2:6,10; 1:17).
Egypt and Elam will 'rise no more' (Jeremiah 25:27) - until... the Lord will 'restore the fortunes of Egypt' (Ezekiel 29:14) and 'restore the fortunes of Elam' (Jeremiah 49:39).
'Moab is destroyed' (Jeremiah 48:4, 42) - until... the Lord
'will restore the fortunes of Moab' (Jeremiah 48:47).
Israel's judgment lasts 'forever' - until... the Spirit is
poured out and God restores it (Isaiah 32:13-15).
The King James Bible, as well as many others, tells us that a bondslave
was to serve his master 'forever' (Exodus 21:6), that is - until... his death."
People here don't even understand what 'Eternal Punishment' means.
I'll try and explain it...
"Little Johnny's parents decide not to give Little Johnny his allowance for two weeks"
^^^
That is a temporary punishment
"Little Johnny's parents decide not to give Little Johnny his allowance for all of eternity"
^^^
That is an eternal punishment
Note that Little Johnny isn't being brutally tortured for ever and ever.
Does anyone see the difference?
I'll try and explain it...
"Little Johnny's parents decide not to give Little Johnny his allowance for two weeks"
^^^
That is a temporary punishment
"Little Johnny's parents decide not to give Little Johnny his allowance for all of eternity"
^^^
That is an eternal punishment
Note that Little Johnny isn't being brutally tortured for ever and ever.
Does anyone see the difference?
It's obvious to me that when Jesus talked about "hell fire"...
the "fire" part of that actually meant fluffy kittens.
: )
People here don't even understand what 'Eternal Punishment' means.
I'll try and explain it...
"Little Johnny's parents decide not to give Little Johnny his allowance for two weeks"
^^^
That is a temporary punishment
"Little Johnny's parents decide not to give Little Johnny his allowance for all of eternity"
^^^
That is an eternal punishment
Note that Little Johnny isn't being brutally tortured for ever and ever.
Does anyone see the difference?
I'll try and explain it...
"Little Johnny's parents decide not to give Little Johnny his allowance for two weeks"
^^^
That is a temporary punishment
"Little Johnny's parents decide not to give Little Johnny his allowance for all of eternity"
^^^
That is an eternal punishment
Note that Little Johnny isn't being brutally tortured for ever and ever.
Does anyone see the difference?
People here don't even understand what 'Eternal Punishment' means. I'll try and explain it... "Little Johnny's parents decide not to give Little Johnny his allowance for two weeks" ^^^ That is a temporary punishment "Little Johnny's parents decide not to give Little Johnny his allowance for all of eternity" ^^^ That is an eternal punishment Note that Little Johnny isn't being brutally tortured for ever and ever. Does anyone see the difference?
i proclaim Christus Victor, the VICTORIOUS GOSPEL OF JESUS CHRIST. the really good news, not bad news saying u will burn forever unless you do this and that and understand correctly everything......
many people are put off from Christ altogether because of bad experiences in the church or wicked christian parents who beat them or something, these people are victims too so lets show grace and love and proclaim victory over sin and death amen????!
Christ reconciled the world to God all that is in heaven and earth! there is no greater salvation than that, if you want to know details go to tentmaker.org for example they got nice material on universalism. God bless you and keep you brother!! 1 timothy 4:10 and here is the motive of our toiling and wrestling, because we have our hopes fixed on the ever-living God, who is the Saviour of all mankind, and especially of believers.
many people are put off from Christ altogether because of bad experiences in the church or wicked christian parents who beat them or something, these people are victims too so lets show grace and love and proclaim victory over sin and death amen????!
Christ reconciled the world to God all that is in heaven and earth! there is no greater salvation than that, if you want to know details go to tentmaker.org for example they got nice material on universalism. God bless you and keep you brother!! 1 timothy 4:10 and here is the motive of our toiling and wrestling, because we have our hopes fixed on the ever-living God, who is the Saviour of all mankind, and especially of believers.
I can see both sides of the discussion Muzungu.
It's possible that under the old world - pre 70 AD that some were saved and some not.
Under the new covenant it maybe is possible all are saved.
1 Cor 15:55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?
1 Cor 15:56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.
1 Cor 15:57 But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.
When Paul said "The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law" he was speaking of the old covenant law which was abolished in the 1st century with the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple.
Heb 8:13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.
Paul called the old law the ministration of death:
2 Cor 3:7 But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:
2 Cor 3:8 How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious?
Where in the scriptures is the new covenant called a ministration of death?
It's possible that under the old world - pre 70 AD that some were saved and some not.
Under the new covenant it maybe is possible all are saved.
1 Cor 15:55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?
1 Cor 15:56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.
1 Cor 15:57 But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.
When Paul said "The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law" he was speaking of the old covenant law which was abolished in the 1st century with the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple.
Heb 8:13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.
Paul called the old law the ministration of death:
2 Cor 3:7 But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:
2 Cor 3:8 How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious?
Where in the scriptures is the new covenant called a ministration of death?
One of the most inconceivable oppositions to the idea that death is the final
punishment for those who refuse God's offer of a life more abundant through the
shed blood of Christ, Who took the penalty of sin upon Himself (the penalty for
sin being explicitly stated over and over and over again as being death), is this:
death is not a punishment Now, really, I have to wonder at anyone who would
say such a ridiculously foolish thing. Why do people reject death as being punishment,
let alone being everlasting? Fear of death is named as the cause of slavery (to sin).
punishment for those who refuse God's offer of a life more abundant through the
shed blood of Christ, Who took the penalty of sin upon Himself (the penalty for
sin being explicitly stated over and over and over again as being death), is this:
death is not a punishment
Now, really, I have to wonder at anyone who would say such a ridiculously foolish thing. Why do people reject death as being punishment,
let alone being everlasting? Fear of death is named as the cause of slavery (to sin).
Yes I agree.
Did we forget there is a Spirit as well as Soul and Body?
The Spirit returns to God...
Ecclesiastes 12:7
"Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it"
During the Lake of Fire, the Spirit get's stripped of the Soul in order to give it a fresh start.
God gives it another chance. A clean slate if you will.
The Universalist are really close to having it all figured out.
Did we forget there is a Spirit as well as Soul and Body?
The Spirit returns to God...
Ecclesiastes 12:7
"Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it"
During the Lake of Fire, the Spirit get's stripped of the Soul in order to give it a fresh start.
God gives it another chance. A clean slate if you will.
The Universalist are really close to having it all figured out.
Yes I agree.
Did we forget there is a Spirit as well as Soul and Body?
The Spirit returns to God...
Ecclesiastes 12:7
"Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it"
During the Lake of Fire, the Spirit get's stripped of the Soul in order to give it a fresh start.
God gives it another chance. A clean slate if you will.
The Universalist are really close to having it all figured out.
Did we forget there is a Spirit as well as Soul and Body?
The Spirit returns to God...
Ecclesiastes 12:7
"Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it"
During the Lake of Fire, the Spirit get's stripped of the Soul in order to give it a fresh start.
God gives it another chance. A clean slate if you will.
The Universalist are really close to having it all figured out.
You make me chuckle base.
I have my own thoughts on the nature of the lake of fire - not conclusive and I can't put forth a good argument for it because there is little to go on with only a few verses mentioning it.
Yes I agree.
Did we forget there is a Spirit as well as Soul and Body?
The Spirit returns to God...
Ecclesiastes 12:7
"Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it"
During the Lake of Fire, the Spirit get's stripped of the Soul in order to give it a fresh start.
God gives it another chance. A clean slate if you will.
The Universalist are really close to having it all figured out.
Did we forget there is a Spirit as well as Soul and Body?
The Spirit returns to God...
Ecclesiastes 12:7
"Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it"
During the Lake of Fire, the Spirit get's stripped of the Soul in order to give it a fresh start.
God gives it another chance. A clean slate if you will.
The Universalist are really close to having it all figured out.
I sincerely hope nobody here is counting on that "fresh start".
