Teach Against God's Commandments and Still Be Saved

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FreeNChrist

Guest
#21
Now, at first glance that title may seem provocative but there is a verse that basically says the same thing. That verse is Matthew 5:19.

Matthew 5:19 King James Version (KJV)

19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

It almost seems as if people's eyes just scan over that verse. However, it is quite a profound verse for those that come from a legalistic background of sorts. Someone teach against God's holy and righteous law, and they still make it into the kingdom of heaven? Their bubble must be bursting.

With this in mind, how many people do you suppose are indeed your brethren in Christ whom you may have deemed unsaved? Is not His grace sufficient, Christ's sacrifice established? Is not Christ our High Priest able to save us completely because He lives forever interceding on our behalf?

Lets not be quick to throw sheep out of the fold because we disagree on matters, but let us hold unity that exalts Christ. Some might call this compromise, but wherein then is your love? Did not Christ invite those in who are in the wrong? All manner of sinner, liars included. Therefore, people may not hold all the truth, and may yet hold onto one truth. That is, Christ and Him crucified. It is in this truth that unity may be held.

Children of God, unite.

"Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven." Matthew 5:19

Ironically, who are those who actually set aside some commands and teach others to do the same??
 

Zmouth

Senior Member
Nov 21, 2012
3,391
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#22
It almost seems as if people's eyes just scan over that verse. However, it is quite a profound verse for those that come from a legalistic background of sorts.
So you graduate from the Univ. of Divine Providence also?
Not really sure what is so profound about ignorant people getting into heaven, just come and see what is written in Rev. 6:2


And I saw, and behold a white horse:

So if you know there is a white horse then you must have seen the see-saw standing there unless you are sitting on it cause only those on the merry-go-round see him when he comes around.

But the about the 1,000 year duration of the spirit, is well documented in scripture but I if those who deny the 120 year limit on man's life span in the flesh on earth will even have the faith to test the truth that they will have the truth to test the faith.

Yea, though he live a thousand years twice told, yet hath he seen no good: do not all go to one place? Eccl 6:6


For a thousand years in thy sight are but as yesterday when it is past, and as a watch in the night. Ps 90:4


But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. 2 Peter 3:8








 

Yahshua

Senior Member
Sep 22, 2013
2,758
715
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#23
Now, at first glance that title may seem provocative but there is a verse that basically says the same thing. That verse is Matthew 5:19.

Matthew 5:19 King James Version (KJV)

19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

It almost seems as if people's eyes just scan over that verse. However, it is quite a profound verse for those that come from a legalistic background of sorts. Someone teach against God's holy and righteous law, and they still make it into the kingdom of heaven? Their bubble must be bursting.

With this in mind, how many people do you suppose are indeed your brethren in Christ whom you may have deemed unsaved? Is not His grace sufficient, Christ's sacrifice established? Is not Christ our High Priest able to save us completely because He lives forever interceding on our behalf?

Lets not be quick to throw sheep out of the fold because we disagree on matters, but let us hold unity that exalts Christ. Some might call this compromise, but wherein then is your love? Did not Christ invite those in who are in the wrong? All manner of sinner, liars included. Therefore, people may not hold all the truth, and may yet hold onto one truth. That is, Christ and Him crucified. It is in this truth that unity may be held.

Children of God, unite.
You make a good point about unity and what Christ says regarding those teaching against the commandments. I'm reminded of the Corinthians passage about whatever we build on the foundation of Christ will be tested by fire (with those who build on their foundation "straw" etc still being saved but thats it, with loss as far as reward). 1 Corinthians 3:10-15

...But this brings me to the point I want to share regarding your passage in the OP. I think it's worth noting what Christ says about those who *teach* and actively *do* the commandments of God. I believe that's the bigger point Christ's making: to teach and do the commandments in order to be called "greater" in the kingdom of God.

...and as far as I've witnessed here, that's what some folks are doing, never once mentioning the commandments in terms of achieving salvation, even though that's what they're accused of frequently, when they're simply doing as instructed to be called "greater" by Christ.
 

Yahshua

Senior Member
Sep 22, 2013
2,758
715
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#24
Also, I don't think we can use what Christ says in Matthew 5 here with regard to being partial, because in Acts 15 during the counsel it was the elders themselves who decided that circumcision of the flesh wasn't necessary for gentiles and yet other commandments were still to be kept.

Acts 15:19-21
19 “It is my judgment, therefore, that we should not make it difficult for the Gentiles who are turning to God.20 Instead we should write to them, telling them to abstain from food polluted by idols, from sexual immorality, from the meat of strangled animals and from blood.21 For the law of Moses has been preached in every city from the earliest times and is read in the synagogues on every Sabbath.”

Surely these men had the Holy Spirit. So I don't think we can use Christ words as an argument against partiality when it comes to certain laws that simply have never applied (or no longer apply) in certain scenarios after the resurrection and ascension of Christ. This is what the Holy Spirit helps the believer to discern. Otherwise, we have to also condemn the early church elders for being partial and promoting the law of Moses after Christ.

So I have to believe what Christ says has to do with intention. "Does one intend to lead others *away* from obeying God's commandments or do we intend to lead them *towards* obeying God's commandments?"

 
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Ariel82

Guest
#25
This, obviously, is not an endorsement to teach against God's holiness and righteous standards. Only an observation that one can do so, and yet still be in the kingdom of Heaven. How gracious is God? How merciful? Is not He worthy of all praise? His love, everlasting and His heart faithful.
No it's not obvious...I don't agree with your observation.

Yes God is gracious, merciful, worthy of all praise and has everlasting love.

However He still chastens His children and when they teach others to sin He teaches them is wrong,they repent and strive to live godly lives as they are lead by the Holy Spirit.

False teachers, wolves and goats get thrown into Hell.

Only those who get into Heaven are those sealed by,the Holy Spirit who chastens and teaches all of God's children to repent and live godly lives.
 
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BenFTW

Senior Member
Oct 7, 2012
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#26
"Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven." Matthew 5:19

Ironically, who are those who actually set aside some commands and teach others to do the same??
Those that wish to make God's standard seem obtainable in and of themselves, and yet hypocrisy is afoot. How often do we find people screaming to the sinner of how foul they are while street preaching and they do not see where they themselves still fall short, even being in the fold by God's grace? It puts up a false pretense, of sorts. They themselves hide the fact they are being progressively sanctified, and try to appear all kept.

I think honesty is in order, for those preaching to not condemn the sinner but offer them salvation. There is no need to tear down, to speak without meekness, to rip asunder, and so on. It is God's goodness that leads men to repentance, so these men need to get off their high horse and proclaim the goods news that has been not only bestowed to those they preach to, but to themselves. The difference between the preacher and the sinner is but one truth. Christ. What glory then does the preacher have? None, but Christs. It is His. Their righteousness a work of Gods not their own to be in awe at.

The world see Christians as hypocrites often times because believers try to present Christianity as a religion of rules and regulations when it is not about, as scripture says, serving in the oldness of the letter, but the newness of the Spirit. Legalism is in fact a blindfold upon the world, it has been a disservice to humanity. People see not Christ, but law. How sadly mistaken are they? We are of the faith, and men are not saved through their morality but by God's grace.
 

BenFTW

Senior Member
Oct 7, 2012
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#27
No it's not obvious...I don't agree with your observation.

Yes God is gracious, merciful, worthy of all praise and has everlasting love.

However He still chastens His children and when they teach others to sin He teaches them is wrong,they repent and strive to live godly lives as they are lead by the Holy Spirit.

False teachers, wolves and goats get thrown into Hell.

Only those who get into Heaven are those sealed by,the Holy Spirit who chastens and teaches all of God's children to repent and live godly lives.
How much can a teacher get wrong to gain the title false teacher? Do you see how this is a subject that is grounded upon Christ? A false teacher defined would be someone denying Christ, a gospel that is no Gospel at all. Salvation being offered through some other means than the Son of God.

Surely you would agree many teachers are not perfect on all counts? How many then are destined to Hell? If Christ is preached, the Gospel proclaimed, what fault do you lay against them to say they will be thrown into Hell? How much is too much, to get wrong? It is Christ and Him crucified that should be the bar, right?
 
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FreeNChrist

Guest
#28
Those that wish to make God's standard seem obtainable in and of themselves, and yet hypocrisy is afoot. How often do we find people screaming to the sinner of how foul they are while street preaching and they do not see where they themselves still fall short, even being in the fold by God's grace? It puts up a false pretense, of sorts. They themselves hide the fact they are being progressively sanctified, and try to appear all kept.

I think honesty is in order, for those preaching to not condemn the sinner but offer them salvation. There is no need to tear down, to speak without meekness, to rip asunder, and so on. It is God's goodness that leads men to repentance, so these men need to get off their high horse and proclaim the goods news that has been not only bestowed to those they preach to, but to themselves. The difference between the preacher and the sinner is but one truth. Christ. What glory then does the preacher have? None, but Christs. It is His. Their righteousness a work of Gods not their own to be in awe at.

The world see Christians as hypocrites often times because believers try to present Christianity as a religion of rules and regulations when it is not about, as scripture says, serving in the oldness of the letter, but the newness of the Spirit. Legalism is in fact a blindfold upon the world, it has been a disservice to humanity. People see not Christ, but law. How sadly mistaken are they? We are of the faith, and men are not saved through their morality but by God's grace.
I just find it ironic that it is the legalist who sets aside parts of the Law. While those who are under grace and know what it means, uphold Gods Law…all of it. We do not water it down to make it doable.
 

Grandpa

Senior Member
Jun 24, 2011
11,551
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#29
Of course it was hard for them to keep any sort of commandment seeing they did not have God's Holy Spirit to empower them....and is just as hard/impossible for anyone today without the HS of God. Don't think because people claim it they have it. It becomes OBVIOUS whether or not people have it in 'keeping of the commandments written on hearts of flesh Heb 8v10.
That's one of your better posts, actually. I almost liked it.

But you changed the verse in Hebrews 8 to make it seem like working at keeping commandments is what God wants.

But its not.

God will put His Law into their minds and write them on their hearts. But its not commandments that are put there. Its Love, Peace, Joy, Faith... He will be God to them and they will be His People.

So people won't be under the law to perform commandments. They will be doing the intent of the law by the Power of Christ.

Don't think for a second that people are just given power and understanding to work at and fulfill commandments on their own. Without Christ they can still do nothing.
 

beta

Senior Member
Aug 8, 2016
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#30
That's one of your better posts, actually. I almost liked it.

But you changed the verse in Hebrews 8 to make it seem like working at keeping commandments is what God wants.

But its not.

God will put His Law into their minds and write them on their hearts. But its not commandments that are put there. Its Love, Peace, Joy, Faith... He will be God to them and they will be His People.

So people won't be under the law to perform commandments. They will be doing the intent of the law by the Power of Christ.

Don't think for a second that people are just given power and understanding to work at and fulfill commandments on their own. Without Christ they can still do nothing.
Same here Grandpa....I quite like what you are saying...it's just a matter of looking at it from the right angle....except
even the law of Christ is LAW based on the 10 Commandments of His Father and is expected from us = love God and neighbour. This is not something a person does naturally AS IF we did not have to work at it....so (as I see it) we have to make SOME effort at it...it does not come naturally for a person to love their enemy and we never would if it was not for God/Jesus TELLING/commanding us to in the first place....in my case anyway. 'I need a strong hand' to guide me , so I welcome 'Law & Love' in my life. Maybe you don't have a stubborn streak in you and respond to God quicker ?!?
 
Feb 1, 2014
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#31
It's hilarious how Torah observers claim it is not hard to keep the 613 commandments of the Torah. For one thing, the temple and Levitical Priesthood are no longer in existence, and the system is connected with them.

Another thing is that almost none of them go to Jerusalem for the three pilgrimage festivals like Torah requires.

They can create all the work-around explanations they want, but those are the simple facts.

So, if Jesus is saying that you must keep Torah in Matthew 5:17-19, everyone is screwed because Torah can't be kept for the aforementioned reasons. And it says that NOT ONE JOT OR TITTLE will pass away. Certainly physical circumcision and all of the commandments involved with the Temple and the Levitical priesthood are more than "jots and tittles".

So, keep thinking your pick-and-choose, cafeteria plan commandment observing makes you righteous in God's sight :)
 

MadebyHim

Senior Member
Dec 17, 2016
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#32
[SUP]30 [/SUP]Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn. Matthew 13:30

[SUP]47 [/SUP]Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto a net, that was cast into the sea, and gathered of every kind:
[SUP]48 [/SUP]Which, when it was full, they drew to shore, and sat down, and gathered the good into vessels, but cast the bad away. Matthew 13:47-48


[SUP]49 [/SUP]So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,
[SUP]50 [/SUP]And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. Matthew 13:49-50

Words from the Word Himself.
 
Nov 12, 2015
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#33
Jesus said that because the purpose of the Law was to bring us to Himself. it was to inflame sin and to cause us to sin more so that we can see that we need a Savior.

To teach that some of the law is ok not to do is to water it down and make it "doable" and thus we don't need to live by grace through faith in Christ - we can live by our own works of righteousness.
Excellent post!
If you drew this out further and spoke in depth about it, it would help a lot of people, Bruce.
I sometimes think a good part of our arguments are...grace vs. truth.
It is hard to juggle both of them without temporarily dropping one for the other.
And as Luther said, satan doesn't care which side of the horse you fall off of. He's just happy if you're not in the saddle any more.
 

MadebyHim

Senior Member
Dec 17, 2016
572
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#34
And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved. Matthew 10:22

But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. Matthew 24:13
 
Dec 23, 2012
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#35
i knew of a man, who explained to me all that i needed to know of the ot and the laws, he spoke fluent hebrew and greek, and was a renowned expert of the Torah, he layed it out clearly, in fact having read copies of his books where every possible angle was covered in different versions, i dont see why i need anyone else to give me their interpretation. You can read his books too, there in the bible, his name is Paul..
 
Feb 1, 2014
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#36
i knew of a man, who explained to me all that i needed to know of the ot and the laws, he spoke fluent hebrew and greek, and was a renowned expert of the Torah, he layed it out clearly, in fact having read copies of his books where every possible angle was covered in different versions, i dont see why i need anyone else to give me their interpretation. You can read his books too, there in the bible, his name is Paul..
Good point..read Galatians :) It shows clearly Torah is no longer in effect. It was in effect until the seed came..and Jesus was the seed (Galatians 3).

The Judaizer teachers that I listened to as a young man hated Galatians. My pastor called it an "old trap" when discussing a couple who read and understood it, and left the church due to the inconsistencies between it and the teachings of the organization.

I think they only liked Galatians 1:6-7, which they claim applied to the rest of Christianity but really applied to them.
 
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Nov 22, 2015
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#37
Excellent post!
If you drew this out further and spoke in depth about it, it would help a lot of people, Bruce.
I sometimes think a good part of our arguments are...grace vs. truth.
It is hard to juggle both of them without temporarily dropping one for the other.
And as Luther said, satan doesn't care which side of the horse you fall off of. He's just happy if you're not in the saddle any more.

I understand what you are saying. The law of Moses is such a religious stronghold in our minds from our church teachings. We have in many cases exchanged Christ ( and His grace and truth ) for the keeping of the Law which of course nullifies the grace of God from operating in our lives like it was meant to..

For me there is no such thing as too much grace or too much truth because they are all Jesus Himself. It would be like telling people you can have too much of Jesus.

Trying to pit grace and truth against each other is nonsense as if there is to much grace then truth doesn't apply. It's like trying to separate out the wet from the water. Can't be done. They are one composite together.

We can't be speaking about grace without truth and we can't be speaking about what the truth is unless it is grace too.

Be strong in the grace that is in Christ Jesus. Jesus said I am the Truth. They speak of Him.
 
A

Ariel82

Guest
#38
How much can a teacher get wrong to gain the title false teacher? Do you see how this is a subject that is grounded upon Christ? A false teacher defined would be someone denying Christ, a gospel that is no Gospel at all. Salvation being offered through some other means than the Son of God.

Surely you would agree many teachers are not perfect on all counts? How many then are destined to Hell? If Christ is preached, the Gospel proclaimed, what fault do you lay against them to say they will be thrown into Hell? How much is too much, to get wrong? It is Christ and Him crucified that should be the bar, right?
Anyone not sealed,by the Holy Spirit is going to hell.

Even if they mouth the right words like the Pharisees did.

It's not how,much,can,they get wrong. It is, are they born again or just going through the motions?
 

Grandpa

Senior Member
Jun 24, 2011
11,551
3,189
113
#39
Same here Grandpa....I quite like what you are saying...it's just a matter of looking at it from the right angle....except
even the law of Christ is LAW based on the 10 Commandments of His Father and is expected from us = love God and neighbour. This is not something a person does naturally AS IF we did not have to work at it....so (as I see it) we have to make SOME effort at it...it does not come naturally for a person to love their enemy and we never would if it was not for God/Jesus TELLING/commanding us to in the first place....in my case anyway. 'I need a strong hand' to guide me , so I welcome 'Law & Love' in my life. Maybe you don't have a stubborn streak in you and respond to God quicker ?!?
The way I see it is we can't do anything that the Lord commands unless He causes us to be able to.

So, really, telling or commanding a blind man with no understanding won't get any results.
 

beta

Senior Member
Aug 8, 2016
2,782
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#40
The way I see it is we can't do anything that the Lord commands unless He causes us to be able to.

So, really, telling or commanding a blind man with no understanding won't get any results.
Reminds me iof the blind man who was told to go wash in the pool of Siloam. He washed and came (away) seeing...he did not see before he went even though Jesus had anointed his eyes. I think there is a question of 'simple obedience' involved in being healed of all our infirmities - not really of 'understanding or human reasoning we so much rely on and end up in trouble.