Lets Talk Free Choice

[Desertsrose]

I'm being literal. Dog's have choice too. And they make roughly the same choices we make -- do what pleases them.

As for God stepping on a leash? God doesn't step on leashes. He's never stepped on a leash. I don't even get where people think he might.

He takes care of his creation the same way. He takes great care of his creation. But one thing in all of his creation he has chosen to love in a very special way -- people. Not all people. The people he chooses. We don't get a say in who he chooses, but we react to that choice when he chooses us. And after that it is still our choices, but through the love and discipline of God.

We love, because he first loved us.

​The leash part covers limited atonement and God pre choosing who will be eternally saved and who will be eternally damned. In other words reformed teaching says that you're either predestined to life or you're not.

What I believe Kayla is saying is that free will takes away that leash. It's takes away reformed predetermination as to who is saved and who is not.

God says he wants all saved and He's made the way for all to be saved and He has left the choice to man to come to Him and be saved or not. So the analogy is God says come, but most of mankind has a leash on them called predetermination instead of the leash off of them called free will to choose through God's prevenient grace.

 

[kaylagrl]

This is kind of a weird discussion. Because we can't know for certain either way.

But, the underlying concept here that is not being discussed is the thought that mankind is basically good. Those that believe in free will believe that people can make good choices out of their own innate goodness.

The Lord Jesus says there is only One that is Good and that is God.

So your free will, without the influence of God, can only choose what is not good, or evil continually.


In order to have chosen that Good Thing you must have been influenced by the One that is Good, God.


This is a sort of puzzle that some who have been Saved by the Power of God look into. I didn't start out thinking that I had no power to do good. Quite the opposite. Before I came to Christ I thought I was a pretty good person.

If you were saved by the Power of God and not your own power, then whose will has been done?
If you were given a gift that you could not perform yourself, whose will has been done?
If God is producing good fruit in your life that you can't do yourself, whose will is being done?


Are you choosing to do good or are you choosing to stop choosing, to ask for Gods Will to be done and not your own?

I know what Pride says. But what does the bible say?

Sinner or saint,we can choose to live in the flesh. I do not believe man is basically good.I believe the work of the Holy Spirit is draw and convict man. He can walk away or he can heed the call. When He accepts the Lord in his heart everything changes.

 

[Depleted]

Somehow we're crossing wires. How can we have a choice if we are elected to either heaven or hell? This is where I am stuck. I have loved ones right now that I would term "lost" not serving the Lord. So there are two paths here. Either they are elected for heaven and neither I nor they know it,or they are elected to hell. And if they are elected for hell no prayers nor tears on my part will save them. They can hit the bottom and turn to me for advice and all I can do is shrug and say "maybe you're elected to heaven,maybe to hell but neither of us will know till we're dead". This is where people are stuck. You are saying that you have choice,but you dont. You are saying a sinner cannot cry out for Gods mercy and I just do not believe that and I dont see it in the Bible.

I see that's where you keep getting stuck. I don't know why. My entire blood family is lost as of this moment. Does that mean I don't pray for them because God already knows if they are elected? No way! I'm praying hard for them. Does that mean I don't tell them about God because he already decided? No, actually, I try hard to tell them, but they shut me down. Does that mean they are the unelected? No, because I'm not God's only witness and this is all up to God. If he elects them, they will here. I don't know if they are, but I've been pleading their cases for 45 years now. I've even taken to asking others to pray for my Dad, because mentally, he cannot hear anymore. Well, he can, but Alzheimer, so he can't remember the first half of a sentence before anyone says the second half, so mentally he's gone.

Does that mean God didn't elect him? Maybe, but God can still reach him now, so maybe not.

With all my heart, I want God to save them. I want God to save everyone. And I know we're to witness for God, and I'm doing that. I just know, he won't save all. And he still hasn't given anyone the list of the elected, so we're still "stuck" with loving others. What greater love can we give someone but to pray that God saves them? We just don't know if he will. and whether you are a TULIPer or not you still know God does not save everyone.

How is this different from what you believe in this department? And what does that have to do with free will or choice? Of course we want our families and loved ones to be saved. We want everybody to be saved.

45 years now, and haven't given up yet. Are we any different?

We are not saying a sinner cannot cry out for God's mercy! God is not stepping on the leash!

We are saying a sinner will only cry out for God's mercy because God gave him/her that! Sinners leashless and not getting up without God's prompting. But, when God prompts? Still no leash required. We come willingly.


Lord, please give our loved ones your prompt. Amen!

 

[Depleted]

Oddly enough she loves school and is better behaved there than home.Figure that out.

I have. God.

He does the same thing to us too. lol

 

[kaylagrl]

I see only one specific question, the rest is just your theory or view.

Question:
"How can we have a choice if we are elected to either heaven or hell?"

The election does not cancel a choice.

The election just make certain that my choice will be according to God's will and that it will last to the end. By various means (new heart, for example) and circumstances (hearing the Gospel, for example).

And you have your theories and your views. So lets leave that out of it.

Election does cancel choice. How can it not? You were created with either heaven in mind or hell. God either created you to go to a nice comfy heaven or you were created to be destroyed. Thats not choice and you keep saying it is!

 

[Depleted]

Did you choose your current husband or just get arranged with him?

I didn't choose him. I got dinked!

The light switch went on and... DINK! lol

 

[kaylagrl]

We certainly have that choice. But if we are born from above and have a new heart, we will not make that choice, because we do not want to.

Because we cant,there is a difference.

 

[kaylagrl]

I see that's where you keep getting stuck. I don't know why. My entire blood family is lost as of this moment. Does that mean I don't pray for them because God already knows if they are elected? No way! I'm praying hard for them. Does that mean I don't tell them about God because he already decided? No, actually, I try hard to tell them, but they shut me down. Does that mean they are the unelected? No, because I'm not God's only witness and this is all up to God. If he elects them, they will here. I don't know if they are, but I've been pleading their cases for 45 years now. I've even taken to asking others to pray for my Dad, because mentally, he cannot hear anymore. Well, he can, but Alzheimer, so he can't remember the first half of a sentence before anyone says the second half, so mentally he's gone.

Does that mean God didn't elect him? Maybe, but God can still reach him now, so maybe not.

With all my heart, I want God to save them. I want God to save everyone. And I know we're to witness for God, and I'm doing that. I just know, he won't save all. And he still hasn't given anyone the list of the elected, so we're still "stuck" with loving others. What greater love can we give someone but to pray that God saves them? We just don't know if he will. and whether you are a TULIPer or not you still know God does not save everyone.

How is this different from what you believe in this department? And what does that have to do with free will or choice? Of course we want our families and loved ones to be saved. We want everybody to be saved.

45 years now, and haven't given up yet. Are we any different?

We are not saying a sinner cannot cry out for God's mercy! God is not stepping on the leash!

We are saying a sinner will only cry out for God's mercy because God gave him/her that! Sinners leashless and not getting up without God's prompting. But, when God prompts? Still no leash required. We come willingly.


Lord, please give our loved ones your prompt. Amen!

Quote " We just don't know if he will. "

We can know and He does will! The invitation is there and waiting for a response.We can know we are saved and on our way to heaven.

 

[trofimus]

And you have your theories and your views. So lets leave that out of it.

Election does cancel choice. How can it not? You were created with either heaven in mind or hell. God either created you to go to a nice comfy heaven or you were created to be destroyed. Thats not choice and you keep saying it is!

Oh... again, read http://christianchat.com/bible-disc...ding-misconceptions-about-reformed-faith.html

I think you do not listen

Predestination makes events certain, but not necessary
- we are making our own choices base on our desires, inclinations, experiences etc -> without a grace of God, we are making worldly choices

 

[Grandpa]

Sinner or saint,we can choose to live in the flesh. I do not believe man is basically good.I believe the work of the Holy Spirit is draw and convict man. He can walk away or he can heed the call. When He accepts the Lord in his heart everything changes.

Like Jonah.

He chose not to preach at Ninevah.

He walked away.

But then he was convicted.

 

[Depleted]

Going with my marriage analogy. Would you be in a marriage/relationship that resembled this?

I will say it and get stoned. This is not loving relationship with God, this is a relationship with a masquerading angel of light.

This is why I left reformed/Calvinist dogma years ago.

How is that working for you then? Now that you left reformed theology does that now mean God chooses everyone?

I'd leave it too, if I could get everyone saved just by leaving it.

 

[Depleted]

Without being to harsh, what you replied with here, is not what you seem to have been defending or educating people on.

Well, then you aren't hearing me very well, because I haven't flipped.

 

[followjesus]

Stick with it.

But if you want to talk about Calvinism, you must know Calvinism, sorry.

You can start there:
http://christianchat.com/bible-disc...ding-misconceptions-about-reformed-faith.html

who was talking Calvinism ....I thought we were talking about free will? If you want to talk Protestant reformation Luther, Calvin, or whatever start that thread and I'm sure you'll have a lot of participation. I surely will stick with the word of God rather than mans logic or his directives.......if only eve and Adam had stuck with Gods word rather than letting the serpent reform their thought......things would be much different

 

[Magenta]

This is kind of a weird discussion. Because we can't know for certain either way.

But, the underlying concept here that is not being discussed is the thought that mankind is basically good. Those that believe in free will believe that people can make good choices out of their own innate goodness.

The Lord Jesus says there is only One that is Good and that is God.

So your free will, without the influence of God, can only choose what is not good, or evil continually.

In order to have chosen that Good Thing you must have been influenced by the One that is Good, God.

This is a sort of puzzle that some who have been Saved by the Power of God look into. I didn't start out thinking that I had no power to do good. Quite the opposite. Before I came to Christ I thought I was a pretty good person.

If you were saved by the Power of God and not your own power, then whose will has been done?
If you were given a gift that you could not perform yourself, whose will has been done?
If God is producing good fruit in your life that you can't do yourself, whose will is being done?

Are you choosing to do good or are you choosing to stop choosing, to ask for Gods Will to be done and not your own?

I know what Pride says. But what does the bible say?

To be influenced by is not to have been forced. Nor is being a proponent of choice in the matter to say that any who believe we have a choice also believe that people are inherently good. That seems a misrepresentation. I believe I was given a choice, AND I affirm the only One Who is good is God alone.

 

[Depleted]

​Yes,I believe God changes the heart but I also believe we can still walk away.We have the choice to disobey.

Surely we do. Look at Jonah.

 

[Depleted]

We certainly have that choice. But if we are born from above and have a new heart, we will not make that choice, because we do not want to.

Ha! Speak for yourself. I have walked. And God has pulled me home again.

(I am Jonah.)

 

[Depleted]

Well I can say this is turning into one doggone argument. Had to do it.

Quote "The only reason that leash stops the dog from going to obedience school is because you're stopping your own dog from going to obedience school. Why would you do that?"

Exactly! Why would God stop us coming to Him? Thats my point!

Quote " are you gathering up all the dogs within 5 miles to take them to obedience school too? Of course not! They aren't your dogs. You chose your dog. You did not choose those dogs. Is that unfair to the other dogs suddenly?

But Im not stopping them from going to school. Im not blocking their way. The school is there,they know the price of admission. The can come if they wish.I even put out a flyer telling them to come.So the choice is theirs.

This is fun! Your turn,woof.

LOL Bad news, We're totally agreeing here.

Meow!

 

[Meggido]

Well, then you aren't hearing me very well, because I haven't flipped.

Oh I am hearing you just fine sister. Maybe you are not as elected as you think and are more into covenant theology.

 

[Meggido]

How is that working for you then? Now that you left reformed theology does that now mean God chooses everyone?

I'd leave it too, if I could get everyone saved just by leaving it.

Stop throwing rocks. My salvation and my 2- way relationship w/Father is just fine thank you.

The chains of religious uncertainty left me when I stopped thinking I was or was not elected.

I am not agaisnt you Lynn. calm down

 

[Depleted]

​The leash part covers limited atonement and God pre choosing who will be eternally saved and who will be eternally damned. In other words reformed teaching says that you're either predestined to life or you're not.

What I believe Kayla is saying is that free will takes away that leash. It's takes away reformed predetermination as to who is saved and who is not.

God says he wants all saved and He's made the way for all to be saved and He has left the choice to man to come to Him and be saved or not. So the analogy is God says come, but most of mankind has a leash on them called predetermination instead of the leash off of them called free will to choose through God's prevenient grace.

Tiny little problem the non-Calvinist keep not noticing. No leash!!!

Not only are all the dogs/people free to roam wherever they want, they are roaming wherever they want.

Every single one is getting exactly what they want... for now.

The only moment that changes is on Judgment Day. Then the ones God didn't choose realize they should have wanted to be chosen. They didn't. They wanted to lick vomit and sniff poo. And that's what they get. Their choice for eternity!

(Thank the Lord that he gave us his choice instead.)