An Introduction to the Doctrines of Grace: Limited Atonement

[notuptome]

If faith is the gift of God, then why don't all believe? That gift must be given to only those of God's choosing or else all would believe..

I'm sorry but that's a false narrative. God draws and some men turn back because their deeds are evil. Men turn from the Light because they choose darkness.

Joh 3:19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[SovereignGrace]

This is where you are wrong, because he did not die for the sin of unbelief, thus as john said, whoever believes has eternal life, whoever does not belief shall not see life, but the wrath of God, the fact we all lived in unbelief at one time proved god S willing to give us a chance to repent, and change that unbelief to faith.

people in hell will be in hell because they rejected Christ, period.

Then if the Christ did not die for the sin of unbelief, you have limited the atonement.

 

[SovereignGrace]

This is where you are wrong, because he did not die for the sin of unbelief, thus as john said, whoever believes has eternal life, whoever does not belief shall not see life, but the wrath of God, the fact we all lived in unbelief at one time proved god S willing to give us a chance to repent, and change that unbelief to faith.

people in hell will be in hell because they rejected Christ, period.

Ppl will be in hell because they're unregenerate sinners. Ppl have died never hearing the gospel to even reject the Christ.

 

[SovereignGrace]

This does not change the fact you have them made alive before they are forgiven, that's impossible

romans 1 says they can hear the gospel from n fact they know it, they reject it and god allows them to continue in their sin and gives them over to it, (i.e.) he will not stop them from choosing t rebel and reject him

It happens simultaenously.

 

[SovereignGrace]

I'm sorry but that's a false narrative. God draws and some men turn back because their deeds are evil. Men turn from the Light because they choose darkness.

Joh 3:19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

If God draws, they will come. That was Jesus' words in John 6.

 

[ForthAngel]

This does not change the fact you have them made alive before they are forgiven, that's impossible

romans 1 says they can hear the gospel from n fact they know it, they reject it and god allows them to continue in their sin and gives them over to it, (i.e.) he will not stop them from choosing t rebel and reject him

Romans 1 has nothing to do with the Gospel. It simply states that creation demands a Creator, but rather than worship the Creator, men choose to worship the creation. It in no way says that the Gospel message is inherently understood from creation. I'd like to know how creation portrays the Gospel. Could you explain that?

 

[SovereignGrace]

I'm sorry but that's a false narrative. God draws and some men turn back because their deeds are evil. Men turn from the Light because they choose darkness.

Joh 3:19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

The third is our word helkuo. It is a strong word which means “to tug, draw, or compel,” and is found 6 times in the New Testament. In each usage, whatever was drawn came; there is never a suggestion or hint that whatever was drawn was not accomplished. It is used in John 18:10 of drawing a sword, John 21:6 and 11 of hauling/drawing a net full of fish, and Acts 16:19, of Paul and Silas being dragged into the marketplace. In John 12:32, Jesus said, “And I, if I am lifted up, willdraw all men to Myself.” The context from verses 20-32 is the issue of Gentiles coming to Jesus. They must be drawn by way of the Cross. Some men are repelled by Christ, but this is the way that sinners can and will come to Christ, the only way to the Father.

In the key verse, JOHN 6:44, God “draws” by the gospel. His compelling is clarified in the entire book of John (1:12-13; 6:37, 65). It is God who draws us through the Holy Spirit enlightening our mind to the His glorious salvation. Luther says: “The drawing is not like that of the executioner, who draws the thief up the ladder to the gallows; but it is a gracious allurement, such as that of the man whom everybody loves, and to whom everybody willingly goes.”


I found this on a greekstudies.blogspot.com site

This is what I have been trying to tell you Brothers. When God draws, they come, seeing it is effectual in its application.

 

[notuptome]

If God draws, they will come. That was Jesus' words in John 6.

Yes but some turn back. Some cannot stand the heat of the day and some come on a false premise. The 5000 came for the bread and fish but when it came time to receive the flesh and blood they went back.

Many today come to feel better about their sin but turn back when confronted with confession and repentance to receive grace. They come because they perceive a need for salvation but refuse to submit, refuse to bow the knee to Christ. They are tares and not wheat having never submitted to the conversion of the new birth in Christ.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[SovereignGrace]

Romans 1 has nothing to do with the Gospel. It simply states that creation demands a Creator, but rather than worship the Creator, men choose to worship the creation. It in no way says that the Gospel message is inherently understood from creation. I'd like to know how creation portrays the Gospel. Could you explain that?

Exactly, and thank you. Romans 1 speaks to man's condemnation outside of the Christ, not as a soteriological passage.

 

[SovereignGrace]

Yes but some turn back. Some cannot stand the heat of the day and some come on a false premise. The 5000 came for the bread and fish but when it came time to receive the flesh and blood they went back.

Many today come to feel better about their sin but turn back when confronted with confession and repentance to receive grace. They come because they perceive a need for salvation but refuse to submit, refuse to bow the knee to Christ. They are tares and not wheat having never submitted to the conversion of the new birth in Christ.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

But when God draws they won't turn back. Jesus said they will come.

 

[John146]

Regeneration precedes faith. Faith is a fruit of the Spirit and no lost person has the fruit of the Spirit. They are born again, saved at the same time.

If God chose you unto salvation before the foundation of the world, then there was never a time when you were a child of wrath and lost in your sins. Never. Do you believe this to be true?

 

[SovereignGrace]

Yes but some turn back. Some cannot stand the heat of the day and some come on a false premise. The 5000 came for the bread and fish but when it came time to receive the flesh and blood they went back.

Many today come to feel better about their sin but turn back when confronted with confession and repentance to receive grace. They come because they perceive a need for salvation but refuse to submit, refuse to bow the knee to Christ. They are tares and not wheat having never submitted to the conversion of the new birth in Christ.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

37 All those the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away. 38 For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me. 39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all those he has given me, but raise them up at the last day. 40 For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.”
41 At this the Jews there began to grumble about him because he said, “I am the bread that came down from heaven.” 42 They said, “Is this not Jesus, the son of Joseph,whose father and mother we know? How can he now say, ‘I came down from heaven’?”
43 “Stop grumbling among yourselves,” Jesus answered. 44 “No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day.[John 6:37-44]

Jesus has made some rather plain statements in the above. All the Father gives Him WILL come. Those who come, He will not lose one of them, seeing the Fathef gave them to Him.

So, if He draws them and they turn away and die lost, you have just went against the Christ's own testimony.

 

[notuptome]

The third is our word helkuo. It is a strong word which means “to tug, draw, or compel,” and is found 6 times in the New Testament. In each usage, whatever was drawn came; there is never a suggestion or hint that whatever was drawn was not accomplished. It is used in John 18:10 of drawing a sword, John 21:6 and 11 of hauling/drawing a net full of fish, and Acts 16:19, of Paul and Silas being dragged into the marketplace. In John 12:32, Jesus said, “And I, if I am lifted up, willdraw all men to Myself.” The context from verses 20-32 is the issue of Gentiles coming to Jesus. They must be drawn by way of the Cross. Some men are repelled by Christ, but this is the way that sinners can and will come to Christ, the only way to the Father.

In the key verse, JOHN 6:44, God “draws” by the gospel. His compelling is clarified in the entire book of John (1:12-13; 6:37, 65). It is God who draws us through the Holy Spirit enlightening our mind to the His glorious salvation. Luther says: “The drawing is not like that of the executioner, who draws the thief up the ladder to the gallows; but it is a gracious allurement, such as that of the man whom everybody loves, and to whom everybody willingly goes.”


I found this on a greekstudies.blogspot.com site

This is what I have been trying to tell you Brothers. When God draws, they come, seeing it is effectual in its application.

You are getting ahead of yourself. You are bringing in irresistible grace. Man if he is elect seeing he is totally depraved must then be drawn against his will and saved because he has had his sin atoned for by Christ. This is what Calvinism teaches according to it's greatest advocates of church history. If Christ only died for the elect then there is no power in heaven or earth that can prevent that man's salvation.

Christ died that all men might be saved else why did the writer of Hebrews pen the words in verse 29?

Heb 10:29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[SovereignGrace]

If God chose you unto salvation before the foundation of the world, then there was never a time when you were a child of wrath and lost in your sins. Never. Do you believe this to be true?

Huh? Ephesians 2:3 and Romans 9:21 states otherwise.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

It happens simultaenously.

oh? So the months and months of a person contemplating salvation, and walking with people in church studying the gospel. (I have known people do it for years) just in a split second are born again, able to understand, and justified, before they even have faith.

Thanks, But no thanks, that does not even make any sense. A person would not even be willing to seek for months or even years according to calvanism or limited atonement. They would reject it outright, because they could never want to have it.

 

[SovereignGrace]

You are getting ahead of yourself. You are bringing in irresistible grace. Man if he is elect seeing he is totally depraved must then be drawn against his will and saved because he has had his sin atoned for by Christ. This is what Calvinism teaches according to it's greatest advocates of church history. If Christ only died for the elect then there is no power in heaven or earth that can prevent that man's salvation.

Christ died that all men might be saved else why did the writer of Hebrews pen the words in verse 29?

Heb 10:29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

For the cause of Christ
Roger

But they all go together. God irresistably draws those He chose from before the creation of the world.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Romans 1 has nothing to do with the Gospel. It simply states that creation demands a Creator, but rather than worship the Creator, men choose to worship the creation. It in no way says that the Gospel message is inherently understood from creation. I'd like to know how creation portrays the Gospel. Could you explain that?

romans 1 states no man has an excuse because all that can be known of God is evident.

It does not say God kept it from them because he did not want them to know, or did not "regenerate" them, it says they rejected the truth, because they wanted to make their own Gods and live thier lives how they pleased, So God alloud them to do it..

But they still know, the very sins they commit condemn them where they stand..

yet according to limited atonement, they can not know this, thats why they would never chose to give God a second thought.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Ppl will be in hell because they're unregenerate sinners. Ppl have died never hearing the gospel to even reject the Christ.

John 3, he who believes is not condemned, but he who does not believe are condemned already

1. They are in hell because of unbelief
2. They are unregenerate sinners, because of unbelief.

place the words however you want, they mean the same.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Then if the Christ did not die for the sin of unbelief, you have limited the atonement.

yet those people in unbelief had their sins atoned for.. They had the same opportunity you and I have to be saved, because the penatly was paid for them also.

yet in unbelief, they rejected the atonement

Nice try though.

 

[SovereignGrace]

You are getting ahead of yourself. You are bringing in irresistible grace. Man if he is elect seeing he is totally depraved must then be drawn against his will and saved because he has had his sin atoned for by Christ. This is what Calvinism teaches according to it's greatest advocates of church history. If Christ only died for the elect then there is no power in heaven or earth that can prevent that man's salvation.

Christ died that all men might be saved else why did the writer of Hebrews pen the words in verse 29?

Heb 10:29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

For the cause of Christ
Roger

If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth,no sacrifice for sins is left, 27 but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God. 28 Anyone who rejected the law of Moses died without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 How much more severely do you think someone deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified them, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace? [Hebrews 10:26-29]

The Hebrews writer is starting this passage out with a warning. If ppl, after being saved, keep on sinning, there is no more sacrifice for sin. However, 1 John 3 states we can't keep on sinning, seeing His seed is in us.

Now, he is stating that if a believer does that, then he would deserve a greater punishment. It is a warning to the sheep to keep themselves unspotted from the world.[James 1:27] However, those who are saved, will remain saved.