BAPTISM --- TWICE ??

[FranC]

Jesus said "born of water and the Spirit" not born of baptism and the Spirit. In John 4:10,14; 7:37-39, Jesus talks about "living water" and connects it with eternal life.

What do you mean MMD?

In John 4:10,14 Jesus is explaining to the Samaritan woman that HE is the Living Water.

In John 3:5 Jesus says that one must be born of water and spirit. So are you saying Jesus is the water?


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In John 7:37-39 Jesus says that streams of living water will flow out of those who believe in Him.

verse 39 clearly states that the Living Water is the Holy Spirt, which had not yet been given since Jesus was not glorified.

The Living Water is the Holy Spirit.
Joel 2:28 God will pour out His Spirit just like the Living Waters will pour out of those who believe in Jesus.
John 1:33 The one coming AFTER John the Baptist will baptize with the Holy Spirit.

And, in fact, this is what happens in Acts 2:15-17

Acts 2:15-17 New International Version (NIV)

15 These people are not drunk, as you suppose. It’s only nine in the morning!
16 No, this is what was spoken by the prophet Joel:

17 “‘In the last days, God says,
I will pour out my Spirit on all people.
Your sons and daughters will prophesy,
your young men will see visions,
your old men will dream dreams.

The people were elated at having received the Holy Spirit...Peter was telling the crowd that they were not drunk.



We can safely say that in John 3:5 Jesus did not mean this Living Water that you mention.

It's accepted by all theologians that Jesus either meant:

Natural Birth
or
Baptism

Also, Jesus DID say that we are to be baptized.

 

[FranC]

John the Baptist is recorded in every gospel affirming that One will come after him Who is greater than he is, baptizing with the Holy Spirit. Two gospels also add "and with fire." This is the required baptism that leads to eternal life: being born again of the Spirit of God

Could you please explain the difference between baptism and baptism of the Holy Spirit?

Are you also saying, as some here, that if one is not baptized in the Holy Spirit they are NOT saved?

Thanks.

 

[Gabriel2020]

that is true sister!!

 

[hornetguy]

Isn't it also likely that believer's baptism is a work and not a sign of salvation?

I say absolutely not. Baptism is commanded, so it is obedience.

 

[PrynceNY]

Isn't it also likely that believer's baptism is a work and not a sign of salvation?

Acts 2:38 ~ And Peter said to them, “Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Matthew 28:19 ~ Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,

 

[FranC]

Isn't it also likely that believer's baptism is a work and not a sign of salvation?

How could it be a work if Jesus said to do this?

It seems to me like we're afraid of the word "work" nowadays.
Jesus said to do many things. Should we NOT do them because they're a "work"?

I don't understand baptism. I know all about it but I don't UNDERSTAND it.

Even if we don't understand something, we should still do it.
If the blood of Jesus washes sin away, why would baptism be needed ?


John baptized for the remission of sins.
He said there was one coming after him that would baptize with the Holy Spirit and with Fire.
Mathew 3:11

So when we get baptized, it IS to receive the Holy Spirit.

But some churches go on to teach that this is separate...
First you get baptized with water...
Then you get baptized with the Holy Spirit.

Jesus DID tell the Disciples to wait in Jerusalem for the Holy Spirit.

Acts 1:5 New International Version (NIV)

5 For John baptized with[a] water, but in a few days you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.”

And for what reason?...:



Acts 1:8 New International Version (NIV)

8 But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes on you; and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the ends of the earth.”


When the disciples received the Holy Spirit, they were NOT immersed in water.
Acts 2:4


But in Mathew 28:19 when Jesus sent them out to preach and teach and baptize, it was understood that they were to baptize with water since this happens many times in Acts.

It certainly seems like to different events.
I'd have to say that it is the first one that "counts" toward salvation, NOT the second one.

 

[Gabriel2020]

Look, learn the difference between John's baptism,which was by water only, and learn the difference between Jesus baptism which is by fir(The Holy Spirit) John could not save a soul, only lead them to repentance so that Jesus could save them by his baptism.

 

[FranC]

Is it the conscious of man that determines things or the Heart of a man?

I think he was kidding around...

 

[eternally-gratefull]

How could it be a work if Jesus said to do this?

It seems to me like we're afraid of the word "work" nowadays.
Jesus said to do many things. Should we NOT do them because they're a "work"?

I don't understand baptism. I know all about it but I don't UNDERSTAND it.

Even if we don't understand something, we should still do it.
If the blood of Jesus washes sin away, why would baptism be needed ?


John baptized for the remission of sins.
He said there was one coming after him that would baptize with the Holy Spirit and with Fire.
Mathew 3:11

So when we get baptized, it IS to receive the Holy Spirit.

But some churches go on to teach that this is separate...
First you get baptized with water...
Then you get baptized with the Holy Spirit.

Jesus DID tell the Disciples to wait in Jerusalem for the Holy Spirit.

Acts 1:5 New International Version (NIV)

5 For John baptized with[a] water, but in a few days you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.”

And for what reason?...:



Acts 1:8 New International Version (NIV)

8 But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes on you; and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the ends of the earth.”


When the disciples received the Holy Spirit, they were NOT immersed in water.
Acts 2:4


But in Mathew 28:19 when Jesus sent them out to preach and teach and baptize, it was understood that they were to baptize with water since this happens many times in Acts.

It certainly seems like to different events.
I'd have to say that it is the first one that "counts" toward salvation, NOT the second one.

it can be A work,

A work is something you do to earn a wage, a reward something.

If we get baptized to earn salvation, It becomes a work.

And please, stop with the work is a bad word nonsense, It is not the word, it is the interpretation of what the word is..

 

[FranC]

John 3 is not speaking of baptism, It is talking about being born of the spirit (Spiritual water) vs being born of the flesh (physical water)

It's really confusing the way you and some Others explain John 3.5...

There are TWO accepted versions of what Jesus said.



John 3:5 New International Version (NIV)

5 Jesus answered, “Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit.

1. Jesus meant natural Birth by "water" ... one must be born first physically and THEN one must also be born sprirtually at some point.


2. Jesus meant that one must be born physically and must also be baptised by "water".


I'm sorry if I'm repeating.... I feel like you said something different.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

It's really confusing the way you and some Others explain John 3.5...

There are TWO accepted versions of what Jesus said.



John 3:5 New International Version (NIV)

5 Jesus answered, “Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit.

1. Jesus meant natural Birth by "water" ... one must be born first physically and THEN one must also be born sprirtually at some point.


2. Jesus meant that one must be born physically and must also be baptised by "water".


I'm sorry if I'm repeating.... I feel like you said something different.

I hold to the first one.

That which is born of flesh is fles h(physical water) , that which is born of spirit is spirit (spiritual; water).

 

[FranC]

But Paul was talking about spiritual things, comparing the physical circumcision of the Jew to our "spiritual circumcision" as Christians.. he was saying that just being circumcised qualified you to be "Jewish".... but that now, it takes a spiritual circumcision.... a marking of our hearts to be considered a "new Jew", or Christian. Just a physical act won't cut it.... that is also a very bad pun....

Paul was a Pharisee... he would have NEVER said that circumcision for Jews was only a mental/spiritual state of being....

This is correct.
And,as I've already stated, circumcision was necessary to be a Jew. It was part of the Covenant that God made with Abraham.
Man's part of the Covenant was the all males had to be circumcised to show that they were people of the Covenant and diffrent from everyone else.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

This is correct.
And,as I've already stated, circumcision was necessary to be a Jew. It was part of the Covenant that God made with Abraham.
Man's part of the Covenant was the all males had to be circumcised to show that they were people of the Covenant and diffrent from everyone else.

True, But no one was ever saved because they were circumcised. It represented the spiritual circumcision done without hands Paul spoke of in his letter to Colossians, Just like water baptism symbolizes the spiritual baptism done without hands.

 

[FranC]

I would say that the two are unable to be compared. Circumcision was mandated by God under the Abrahamic covenant to specifically be done at 8 days old.

Genesis 17:12-13 reads: Throughout your generations, every male among you at eight days old is to be circumcised. This includes a slave born in your house and one purchased with money from any foreigner. The one who is not your offspring, a slave born in your house, as well as one purchased with money, must be circumcised. My covenant will be marked in your flesh as an everlasting covenant.

Whereas in water baptism we read in Acts 2:38: “Repent,” Peter said to them, “and be baptized, each of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.”

Repenting comes first, then the baptism. Since an infant is unable to repent, it is something that would have to be done later in life.

But didn't Jesus also command the dicsiples to go out and baptize?
Mathew 28:19

Jesus not only made a New Covenant, He IS the New Covenant.
If Baptism is the "sign" of the New Covenant as was circumcision for the old, wouldn't it then make sense?

You quote Acts 2.38
Repent and be baptized all of you in the name of Jesus for he remission of sins.


I don't see the difference between a baby being circumcised because God said so in the A.C.

and a baby being baptized because Jesus (God) said so in the N.C.

I'm just thinking out loud...

 

[FranC]

That would be correct, if God has not baptized you, you are still dead in your sin, and have yet to be cleansed by his blood, or placed into (baptized) his body

What do you mean "God baptizes you"?
Have some scripture??

 

[FranC]

He was lost,

but jesus never said he stopped being the so ,

huge difference,

the parable is not about the lost son, it was directed to the reaction of the son who never left, he got mad, which is just what the religious Jews were doing, and what many religious people do,p

EG

The parable was told by Jesus to show many things ---
But the main reason was to show that the FATHER is Always willing to forgive and take the son back.

TAKE HIM BACK.

The parable IS about the lost son.
THE LOST son.

Lost can only mean one thing.... if you're not saved, you're lost.

It's difficult for those who believe in eternal security to get around this. They say that he was still the son.

But he had already received ALL his inheritance when he left. He was going to get NO MORE if he had not come back.

Read it agan with a clear mind...

 

[FranC]

it can be A work,

A work is something you do to earn a wage, a reward something.

If we get baptized to earn salvation, It becomes a work.

And please, stop with the work is a bad word nonsense, It is not the word, it is the interpretation of what the word is..

Everything I do is for God and I work for Him.
NOT to get a wage or a reward.

And, yes, "work" had become a bad word when this is almost all Jesus spoke of.

 

[FranC]

True, But no one was ever saved because they were circumcised. It represented the spiritual circumcision done without hands Paul spoke of in his letter to Colossians, Just like water baptism symbolizes the spiritual baptism done without hands.

Very interesting comment !

All the jews were circumcised although not all of them would be saved.

Many today are baptized although not all of them will be saved.


(Never thought of that. Thanks)

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Very interesting comment !

All the jews were circumcised although not all of them would be saved.

Many today are baptized although not all of them will be saved.


(Never thought of that. Thanks)

if it helps, think of the story of Jonah, he went into a gentile city, and preached the gospel to them, they were saved, Yet they did not get circumcised.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Everything I do is for God and I work for Him.
NOT to get a wage or a reward.

And, yes, "work" had become a bad word when this is almost all Jesus spoke of.

Again, It is not a bad word.

You state you work to maintain your salvation, To most people. That is your reward.

That's why people speak against your form of works. We hate works as used to gain salvation, Not the works God tells all his children to do.

people who do work based solely on the fact God said it is a good thing to do. and we will be blessed if we do them, Do it and expect nothing in return, even the maintaining of their salvation.