Revelation 12 Sign: September 23,2017

[watcher2013]

No, that is a not a problem. You make it a problem by not believing what I told you and what scripture reveals.

Those in white robes which no man can count, which are the great tribulation saints, are never referred to as the church. In fact, the word "Ekklesia" translated as "church" is never used again after the end of chapter 3.

I've already shown you from scripture that there will be the two witnesses who will probable by seen and heard by the whole earth via television. There will also flying and proclaiming the gospel during that time. And I am sure that there will be many who knew about Jesus but were living life in the flesh when he comes and will realize what has happened and what they need to do. They will most likely also spread the word of Christ.

Also, nowhere does the scripture state that anyone else is caught up with the two witnesses, just them two. Every believer in Christ has has been credited with righteousness and has been reconciled to God. God's wrath no longer rests upon the believer because Jesus took it for us. That said, scripture states that believers are not appointed to suffer God's coming wrath and that Jesus rescues us from it. Therefore, the church could not be here when the two witnesses are killed, because it would put the church through the seals and trumpet judgments, which are part of God's wrath.

Instead of desperately trying to disprove that the gathering of the church takes place prior to God's wrath, it would benefit you to be open to what is being taught, instead of being immediately against it.

The wrath of God is initiated by the 1st seal being opened and therefore the church will be removed prior to the 1st seal being opened.

i am not disproving that the gathering takes place prior to Gods wrath infact i agree with it. however we differ on which wrath...to me tge 1-4 seals God dealing with Israel (see my video about seals).
the wrath of God can be found in rev 11:18 the time of your wrath has come...in parallel with rev 6:17

by the way the two witnesses...
do you think the tv will preview their every move?...a primetime tv programme for 1260 days of prophecy in Jerusalem.....

but i do agree somehow their death will be viewed by other nations.

by the those multitudes with white robes...where was the church?

 

[heartofdavid]

Hey heartofdavid,

Just FYI, the words "and they loved not their lives unto death" doesn't necessarily mean that they all die. It means that they do not love there lives so much as to shrink away from death, i.e. they are willing to die for their testimony for Jesus and the word of God.

Remember, some Gentiles have to survive until Christ returns to the earth in order for there to be other people from other nations, otherwise the remnant of Israel would be the only people on the earth during the thousand years. We know that there will be Gentiles who survive because there will be a separation of the sheep and the goats when the Lord returns to the earth to end the age:

"All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats."

Agreed,if that verse stood by itself. It does not.

Revelation 6:9
And when the Lamb opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony they had upheld.

Revelation 7:14
"Sir," I answered, "you know." So he replied, "These are the ones who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

Revelation 15:2
And I saw something like a sea of glass mixed with fire, beside which stood those who had conquered the beastand its image and the number of its name. They were holding harps from God,

The Fifth Seal: The Martyrs
…10And they cried out in a loud voice, “How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You judge those who live on the earth and avenge our blood?” 11Theneach of them was given a white robe and told torest a little while longer, until the full number of their fellow servants, their brothers, were killed,just as they had been killed.

rev 13;7And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations. 8And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
16And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads: 17And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.

Ok,see those verses? see how emphatic the Holy Spirit is trying to make it?

They all die. That is not what I assume,it is what it says.

They "overcome" through death.

 

[heartofdavid]

i am not disproving that the gathering takes place prior to Gods wrath infact i agree with it. however we differ on which wrath...to me tge 1-4 seals God dealing with Israel (see my video about seals).
the wrath of God can be found in rev 11:18 the time of your wrath has come...in parallel with rev 6:17

by the way the two witnesses...
do you think the tv will preview their every move?...a primetime tv programme for 1260 days of prophecy in Jerusalem.....

but i do agree somehow their death will be viewed by other nations.

by the those multitudes with white robes...where was the church?

by the those multitudes with white robes...where was the church?

It says they came out of the GT. It says "they have washed their robes...."

1) they had dirty robes. They are ,in fact, the 5 foolish virgins. Millions or billions of nominal believers living carnal backslidden lives,but had enough sense to refuse the mark.

2) the time ,or dispensation of the gentiles ends with the resurrection of the dead in christ,the rapture of the living,and the killing (martyrdom) of the foolish virgins.

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

i am not disproving that the gathering takes place prior to Gods wrath infact i agree with it. however we differ on which wrath...to me tge 1-4 seals God dealing with Israel (see my video about seals).
the wrath of God can be found in rev 11:18 the time of your wrath has come...in parallel with rev 6:17

by the way the two witnesses...
do you think the tv will preview their every move?...a primetime tv programme for 1260 days of prophecy in Jerusalem.....

but i do agree somehow their death will be viewed by other nations.

by the those multitudes with white robes...where was the church?

The cameras are already there.
Online, 365 days a year, 24/7, you can view the arch and the western wall. I've gone online to look at it. The cameras run 24/7.

 

[J7]

The "times of the Gentiles" when did they end?

1967 maybe

 

[J7]

There is no 'The Great Tribulation'.

This has been explained many times, but people stick to this fallacy

It says they came out of the GT. It says "they have washed their robes...."

1) they had dirty robes. They are ,in fact, the 5 foolish virgins. Millions or billions of nominal believers living carnal backslidden lives,but had enough sense to refuse the mark.

2) the time ,or dispensation of the gentiles ends with the resurrection of the dead in christ,the rapture of the living,and the killing (martyrdom) of the foolish virgins.

 

[Ahwatukee]

And when the Lamb opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony they had upheld

First of all, those who are under the alter are not the great tribulation saints. They are not those mentioned in Rev.7:9-17. This group are believers who die prior to the great tribulation. The other group come out of the tribulation.

And second, the scripture says that "I saw under the alter the souls of those who had been slain." This is just referring to those who were killed. It doesn't mean that all of them were killed.

You have been claiming for a long time that all Gentiles are killed by the time that Christ returns to the earth to end the age. And I have shown you scripture where Jesus will gather peoples from all nations and will separate them like the sheep from the goats. That said, if all the Gentiles where killed by the beast during that seven years, then you could not have a separation sheep and goats from all nations, because according to you there wouldn't be any to separate. It's really a moot point. Then you have the following as another example:

"He will judge between the nations and will settle disputes for many peoples. They will beat their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruning hooks. Nation will not take up sword against nation, nor will they train for war anymore." - Isa.2:4

The above scripture will take place when Jesus returns to the earth to end the age. Notice that the scripture says "He will judge between the nations" and that "Nation will not take up sword against nation." How could this scripture be true, if all Gentiles/Nations were killed by the antichrist? According to you there would be no Gentiles alive to go the millennial period. and these are just a few examples.

Please be scripturally reasonable about this. Do you actually believe that only Israel will be on the earth in their mortal bodies during the thousand year period? How about this scripture regarding the millennial period:

"This is what the LORD Almighty says: "In those days ten people from all languages and nations will take firm hold of one Jew by the hem of his robe and say, 'Let us go with you, because we have heard that God is with you.'"

Surely many of the great tribulation saints, which are Gentiles, will be killed, but not all of them. Scripture just does no support that.

 

[heartofdavid]

There is no 'The Great Tribulation'.

This has been explained many times, but people stick to this fallacy

The fallacy would be trying to convince others that the GT has already happened.


English Standard Version
I said to him, “Sir, you know.” And he said to me, “These are the ones coming out of the great tribulation. They have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

Berean Study Bible
"Sir," I answered, "you know." So he replied, "These are the ones who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

Berean Literal Bible
And I said to him, "My lord, you know." And he said to me, "These are the ones coming out of the great tribulation, and they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

New American Standard Bible
I said to him, "My lord, you know." And he said to me, "These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

King James Bible
And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.


And,BTW,here is the LITERAL greek;
outoihoutoiG3778pd Nom Pl mtheseeisineisinG1526vi Pres vxx 3 PlAREoihoiG3588t_ Nom Pl mTHEercomenoierchomenoiG2064vp Pres midD/pasD Nom Pl mones-COMINGones-comingekekG1537PrepOUTthstEsG3588t_ Gen Sg fOF-THEqliyewsthlipseOsG2347n_ Gen Sg fCONSTRICTIONafflictionthstEsG3588t_ Gen Sg fTHEmegalhsmegalEsG3173a_ Gen Sg fGREATkaikaiG2532ConjA

The GREAT TRIBULATION. Jesus happened to mention it.
Mat 24
21 [FONT=&quot]For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.


[/FONT]Lets see,that would mean "a Tribulation" A SPECIFIC TRIBULATION,worse than the flood,and worse than anything in the future.
A TRIBULATION THAT IS UNMATCHED.

The great tribulation.

unless of course the word of God is some lie or something.

 

[heartofdavid]

The GT,all by itself disproves the historicist doctrine.

The historicist wants us to believe the world wide great tribulation was a local event limited to Jerusalem

 

[heartofdavid]

First of all, those who are under the alter are not the great tribulation saints. They are not those mentioned in Rev.7:9-17. This group are believers who die prior to the great tribulation. The other group come out of the tribulation.

And second, the scripture says that "I saw under the alter the souls of those who had been slain." This is just referring to those who were killed. It doesn't mean that all of them were killed.

You have been claiming for a long time that all Gentiles are killed by the time that Christ returns to the earth to end the age. And I have shown you scripture where Jesus will gather peoples from all nations and will separate them like the sheep from the goats. That said, if all the Gentiles where killed by the beast during that seven years, then you could not have a separation sheep and goats from all nations, because according to you there wouldn't be any to separate. It's really a moot point. Then you have the following as another example:

"He will judge between the nations and will settle disputes for many peoples. They will beat their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruning hooks. Nation will not take up sword against nation, nor will they train for war anymore." - Isa.2:4

The above scripture will take place when Jesus returns to the earth to end the age. Notice that the scripture says "He will judge between the nations" and that "Nation will not take up sword against nation." How could this scripture be true, if all Gentiles/Nations were killed by the antichrist? According to you there would be no Gentiles alive to go the millennial period. and these are just a few examples.

Please be scripturally reasonable about this. Do you actually believe that only Israel will be on the earth in their mortal bodies during the thousand year period? How about this scripture regarding the millennial period:

"This is what the LORD Almighty says: "In those days ten people from all languages and nations will take firm hold of one Jew by the hem of his robe and say, 'Let us go with you, because we have heard that God is with you.'"

Surely many of the great tribulation saints, which are Gentiles, will be killed, but not all of them. Scripture just does no support that.

[FONT=&quot]You have been claiming for a long time that all Gentiles are killed by the time that Christ returns to the earth to end the age[/FONT]

All christians, but not all gentiles.

I only say what the bible says. That is what it says . It says ALL

 

[heartofdavid]

[FONT=&quot]Surely many of the great tribulation saints, which are Gentiles, will be killed, but not all of them. Scripture just does no support that.[/FONT]

OK,I already showed you where it says all.

Since I have posted those verses many times,could you post them and where it says "ALL" ,show me where "ALL" means something else?

It says "every man woman and child,both bond and free,they ALL TAKE THE MARK"

Also show me where that scripture is properly interpreted "some"

 

[Ahwatukee]

All christians, but not all gentiles.

All Christians, both dead and living, will have been gathered prior to the time of God's wrath. We are the ones who follow Christ out of heaven riding on white horses when He returns. Therefore, the church will not be on the earth in their mortal bodies to repopulate the earth, for we will have become like the angels in heaven.

The Gentiles that survive through God's wrath and the beasts reign, as well as Israel who will have been cared for during that last 3 1/2 years, will be those who will repopulate the earth during the millennial period.

I only say what the bible says.

Well obviously you are not saying what the Bible says and that because I have shown you three scriptures that demonstrate that there will be Gentiles existing during the millennial period. So believe in those if you believe what the Bible says!

 

[Ahwatukee]

OK,I already showed you where it says all.

Since I have posted those verses many times,could you post them and where it says "ALL" ,show me where "ALL" means something else?

It says "every man woman and child,both bond and free,they ALL TAKE THE MARK"

Also show me where that scripture is properly interpreted "some"

Please read and explain the scriptures that I have already provided which demonstrate that Gentiles will be on the earth, in their mortal bodies, during Christ's thousand year reign. I've noticed that you have not responded to them.

 

[heartofdavid]

All Christians, both dead and living, will have been gathered prior to the time of God's wrath. We are the ones who follow Christ out of heaven riding on white horses when He returns. Therefore, the church will not be on the earth in their mortal bodies to repopulate the earth, for we will have become like the angels in heaven.

The Gentiles that survive through God's wrath and the beasts reign, as well as Israel who will have been cared for during that last 3 1/2 years, will be those who will repopulate the earth during the millennial period.




Well obviously you are not saying what the Bible says and that because I have shown you three scriptures that demonstrate that there will be Gentiles existing during the millennial period. So believe in those if you believe what the Bible says!

Well obviously you are not saying what the Bible says and that because I have shown you three scriptures that demonstrate that there will be Gentiles existing during the millennial period. So believe in those if you believe what the Bible says

As I said,all christians are killed during the GT.

I don't know how in the world you can refute that.

Even if I thought "all gentiles" (which is silly) would be killed,you have a greater argument than the "repopulate earth" thingy.

The ones taking the mark are gentiles. So it is an absolute no brainer that all gentiles are not killed.

 

[heartofdavid]

Please read and explain the scriptures that I have already provided which demonstrate that Gentiles will be on the earth, in their mortal bodies, during Christ's thousand year reign. I've noticed that you have not responded to them.

I have no problem with gentiles being on earth.Many go through the GT. Many live on into the millineum

 

[heartofdavid]

All non christians take the mark.

All christians die that are left behind,or become saved during the GT.

BTW,that is how the ones left behind are gathered for the wedding supper. They are gathered through martyrdom.

 

[heartofdavid]

1967 maybe

As we speak,the temple mount is occupied by gentiles.

You do not understand that "Jerusalem will be trodden down by the gentiles,until the times of the gentiles is complete"

 

[Ahwatukee]

All non christians take the mark.

All christians die that are left behind,or become saved during the GT.

BTW,that is how the ones left behind are gathered for the wedding supper. They are gathered through martyrdom.

Only the church is the bride, with the wedding taking place in heaven according to Rev.19:6-8 and the great tribulation saints will be on the earth during that time.

You still have yet to answer the question regarding those three scriptures that show Gentiles on the earth during the millennial period. Unless you can give an answer for those, everything else is pointless.

Explain how when Jesus returns to the earth that He settles disputes between the nations and how the nations will not train for war any more if all the Gentiles are killed?

How can the separation of sheep and goats take place if all of the Gentiles are killed?

 

[J7]

As we speak,the temple mount is occupied by gentiles.

You do not understand that "Jerusalem will be trodden down by the gentiles,until the times of the gentiles is complete"

I do understand that. Jerusalem came under Israeli control in 1967.

Agreed, they still allow the Mosque....further insight sought

 

[J7]

No . Categorically no.

The GT is an invention of Futurism. No such expression in Greek as Angela has taught you already

The GT,all by itself disproves the historicist doctrine.

The historicist wants us to believe the world wide great tribulation was a local event limited to Jerusalem