Pentecostal/charismatic Discussion/light debate thread
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The Holy Spirit is one of the 3 persons in the God head. There is so much to know about His ministry to us. I must confess I've only just begun to learn how much we need His ministry in our lives and that His ministry is an active daily one where He fills us and teaches guides and directs us into all truth. No wonder Jesus said He has left us a Comforter to be with us when He went back to heaven. That we are not left alone.
By His grace i have been walking with Him for 60+ years and am still learning.
I have recently been introduced to the ministry of Curry Blake and another teacher, John Fenn. May
I highly recommend them to you?
here is where Curry Blake tells his testimony- https://youtu.be/M6htRrY3Fws?t=1790
see if it doesn't resonate with you.
Here is a great 10 minute teaching from Jon Fenn, based on John 16-13 telling where Jesus said the Holy Spirit will Guide, speak and show all things, I think you will be blessed by it.
https://youtu.be/fIsyeqtQWpg
bless you
I have recently been introduced to the ministry of Curry Blake and another teacher, John Fenn. May
I highly recommend them to you?
here is where Curry Blake tells his testimony- https://youtu.be/M6htRrY3Fws?t=1790
see if it doesn't resonate with you.
Here is a great 10 minute teaching from Jon Fenn, based on John 16-13 telling where Jesus said the Holy Spirit will Guide, speak and show all things, I think you will be blessed by it.
https://youtu.be/fIsyeqtQWpg
bless you
Z
Why was there no inspired writing recorded between the last of the OT and the first of the NT?
Men can't bring anything, God decides time.
Men can babble because they want to counterfeit or mimic so they look legit to the naive, but that doesn't nullify all of it and make it mans doing. This lumping view is what the unbelievers do to us genuine because of all the protesters and bashers. Do you know yourself to be genuine? Can you convince them?
Men can't bring anything, God decides time.
Men can babble because they want to counterfeit or mimic so they look legit to the naive, but that doesn't nullify all of it and make it mans doing. This lumping view is what the unbelievers do to us genuine because of all the protesters and bashers. Do you know yourself to be genuine? Can you convince them?
Z
What? If this isn't a crock what is.. so now we can't take the word at its word?
Jesus couldn't perform miracles in His hometown and places of no honor, did that make it untrue that He could do them?
Your reasoning like the others is " if I say they are fake, they are fake" .. who are you?
Why don't you humble yourself and ask God to match your experience to the word and stop making the word fit your experience..
Jesus couldn't perform miracles in His hometown and places of no honor, did that make it untrue that He could do them?
Your reasoning like the others is " if I say they are fake, they are fake" .. who are you?
Why don't you humble yourself and ask God to match your experience to the word and stop making the word fit your experience..
I have something much better to recommend. I am part of a ministry that visits the sick and disabled in Baton Rouge, LA. We go to the different state run medical facilities and bring communion and prayers to those who are bedridden. Send me a PM with the name of any person willing to bring healing to those who so need it.
If the physical supernatural manifestations of the Holy Spirit are active today as it was during the 1st century we could use some of that here. There must not be anyone here in Baton Rouge with this gift since the medical facilities are full of people in need of healing.
Youtube clips do not heal or prove the existence of healing.
If the physical supernatural manifestations of the Holy Spirit are active today as it was during the 1st century we could use some of that here. There must not be anyone here in Baton Rouge with this gift since the medical facilities are full of people in need of healing.
Youtube clips do not heal or prove the existence of healing.
It isn't circular reasoning in the slightest. You asked (and I quote), "Can you offer any evidence that some tongues are not counterfeit? Are we to just accept hearsay as proof?" Now, what would be evidence that some tongues are not counterfeit?
God's word (as I said). Why is that answer sufficient? For the very reason that God's word defines the gift of tongues as a genuine gift of the Holy Spirit for the edification of self and the Church. Therefore, some tongues must be genuine because it is a gift of the Holy Spirit thereby answering your question. God's word is the evidence that some tongues are not counterfeit. It isn't circular reasoning, in fact it is a logical inference.
1. God is giving genuine gifts to His believers.
2. Believers are receiving genuine gifts.
3. The gift of tongues is a genuine gift therefore believers are receiving this gift (and consequentially operating in it).
God's word (as I said). Why is that answer sufficient? For the very reason that God's word defines the gift of tongues as a genuine gift of the Holy Spirit for the edification of self and the Church. Therefore, some tongues must be genuine because it is a gift of the Holy Spirit thereby answering your question. God's word is the evidence that some tongues are not counterfeit. It isn't circular reasoning, in fact it is a logical inference.
1. God is giving genuine gifts to His believers.
2. Believers are receiving genuine gifts.
3. The gift of tongues is a genuine gift therefore believers are receiving this gift (and consequentially operating in it).
The issue is not about the taking "the word at its word" but baseless claims of supernatural abilities.
Jesus most certainly did heal people in His hometown, not as many but He clearly did heal there.
Jesus healed everywhere He went. He healed both in the midst believers and doubters.
The claims of the Pentecostal/charismatic movement are not fake because of what I say but because they have been tested and shown to be false. Hiding behind the excuse that not every single charismatic claim has been tested is as lame as the excuse that not every report of Bigfoot has been tested.
I make no claims of experience, it is the charismatics that are making the claims. Claims that they cannot prove but claim never the less. Healers, prophets, tongue talkers, interpreters of tongues etc.
"If anyone claims they are something when they are not, they deceive themselves." (Galatians 6:3)
Claiming such gifts without a shred of evidence is utter arrogance.
Jesus most certainly did heal people in His hometown, not as many but He clearly did heal there.
Jesus healed everywhere He went. He healed both in the midst believers and doubters.
The claims of the Pentecostal/charismatic movement are not fake because of what I say but because they have been tested and shown to be false. Hiding behind the excuse that not every single charismatic claim has been tested is as lame as the excuse that not every report of Bigfoot has been tested.
I make no claims of experience, it is the charismatics that are making the claims. Claims that they cannot prove but claim never the less. Healers, prophets, tongue talkers, interpreters of tongues etc.
"If anyone claims they are something when they are not, they deceive themselves." (Galatians 6:3)
Claiming such gifts without a shred of evidence is utter arrogance.
If someone claimed to be an olympic athlete what would we expect to see? What evidence would you think would be apparent from someone making such a claim?
This is the part that is not understood, I am not asking those of this movement to produce evidence of their claims. I simply ask where is the evidence that should already be apparent. It is they that are making the claims, it is they that say they have the 1st century physical supernatural manifestations of the Holy Spirit.
But where are the dead that now live? Where are the blind that now see? Answers such as; "read this book", "watch this youtube clip", "you just missed it", "it happened in New Guinea" are dubious at best.
We are not in an age of the miraculous, if we were this debate would not exist.
This is the part that is not understood, I am not asking those of this movement to produce evidence of their claims. I simply ask where is the evidence that should already be apparent. It is they that are making the claims, it is they that say they have the 1st century physical supernatural manifestations of the Holy Spirit.
But where are the dead that now live? Where are the blind that now see? Answers such as; "read this book", "watch this youtube clip", "you just missed it", "it happened in New Guinea" are dubious at best.
We are not in an age of the miraculous, if we were this debate would not exist.
God's word most certainly states that the people of that time and place were practicing something they called "tongues". Paul and Luke wrote about it and Paul did it himself and wished others to do it also. Yet this is where it ends. No one can use the Bible as "proof" that what they are doing today is the same thing that was going on then.
The Bible speaks of many things happening during the ministry of Jesus and His Apostles but to take these verses and use them to label what is happening today as the same is baseless. If the claims of this movement is are to be taken seriously, pointing to verses in the New Testament will not cut it. If a man claims to have moved a mountain by faith quoting Matthew 17:20 is not evidence that it happened.
This is the reality that this movement rails against.
The Bible speaks of many things happening during the ministry of Jesus and His Apostles but to take these verses and use them to label what is happening today as the same is baseless. If the claims of this movement is are to be taken seriously, pointing to verses in the New Testament will not cut it. If a man claims to have moved a mountain by faith quoting Matthew 17:20 is not evidence that it happened.
This is the reality that this movement rails against.
You are being too free with your "judgments".... you have no idea if DJ2 does, or does not have a desire for Spiritual "happenings".... we should refrain from painting with such a broad brush...
You seem to forget that I went through all that... I coveted them earnestly, and saw value in it, and I did not receive.
Is your response to that "well, you just didn't have enough faith... you didn't wait long enough... you didn't try hard enough..." ?
He makes some very good points about miraculous happenings... where is the evidence? We should be seeing evidence daily, if that many people are "baptized in the Spirit" as your group (for lack of a better descriptive term) claims. If Jesus meant we are to go out and do even greater things than he did, referring to miraculous healings, etc, then why do we not hear about it?
I think that Jesus meant that we would be doing more evangelizing, bringing more people to him, when he said that... NOT that we would be doing greater "signs and wonders"...
I do not in any way want to limit the Spirit... God can do whatever He wants to do. I am ready and willing.... eager to see and believe in any miracle He works in us...
What I see in most of the tongues, miracles, snake handling, etc, is silliness and fakery. Deliberate fakery, in many instances.
THIS is what we should all be on the lookout for... the fakers.... because they make ALL Christians look silly, and they trivialize the gospel message.
You seem to forget that I went through all that... I coveted them earnestly, and saw value in it, and I did not receive.
Is your response to that "well, you just didn't have enough faith... you didn't wait long enough... you didn't try hard enough..." ?
He makes some very good points about miraculous happenings... where is the evidence? We should be seeing evidence daily, if that many people are "baptized in the Spirit" as your group (for lack of a better descriptive term) claims. If Jesus meant we are to go out and do even greater things than he did, referring to miraculous healings, etc, then why do we not hear about it?
I think that Jesus meant that we would be doing more evangelizing, bringing more people to him, when he said that... NOT that we would be doing greater "signs and wonders"...
I do not in any way want to limit the Spirit... God can do whatever He wants to do. I am ready and willing.... eager to see and believe in any miracle He works in us...
What I see in most of the tongues, miracles, snake handling, etc, is silliness and fakery. Deliberate fakery, in many instances.
THIS is what we should all be on the lookout for... the fakers.... because they make ALL Christians look silly, and they trivialize the gospel message.
Are you going to reply about those whom had those wild encounters that you do not approve of, in how they received those wild encounters by the very same rudiment you got tongues without interpretation by which is receiving the Holy Spirt apart from salvation??
You do not smell a rat in Denmark yet?
Matthew 7:[SUP]13 [/SUP]Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: [SUP]14 [/SUP]Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it. [SUP]15 [/SUP]Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. [SUP]16 [/SUP]Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? [SUP]17 [/SUP]Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. [SUP]18 [/SUP]A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. [SUP]19 [/SUP]Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. [SUP]20 [/SUP]Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them. [SUP]21 [/SUP]Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. [SUP]22 [/SUP]Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?[SUP]23 [/SUP]And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
[SUP]24 [/SUP]Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock: [SUP]25 [/SUP]And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock. [SUP]26 [/SUP]And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand: [SUP]27 [/SUP]And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.
That is why after that rudiment ... by that same evil tree... those saints are falling down in those wild encounters because they sought to receive the "Spirit" apart from coming to & believing in Jesus Christ at their salvation.
2 Thessalonians 2:[SUP]13 [/SUP]But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth: [SUP]14 [/SUP]Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. [SUP]15 [/SUP]Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.
Ask yourself do those who proclaim receiving the Holy Spirit apart from salvation experiences miracles of supposed healing and casting out of devils and doing other wonderful works in His name? But never a report from the ones they supposedly had helped? Did you read that portion of scripture in Matthew 7:21-23 or not for why you should give pause when people fall in those movements as described in Matthew 7:24-27. That is what they get for going around Jesus Christ for anything else.
John 10:1Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that entereth not by the door into the sheepfold, but climbeth up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber.
John 14:[SUP]6[/SUP]Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me......[SUP]13 [/SUP]And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. [SUP]14 [/SUP]If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it.
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You do not smell a rat in Denmark yet?
Matthew 7:[SUP]13 [/SUP]Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: [SUP]14 [/SUP]Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it. [SUP]15 [/SUP]Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. [SUP]16 [/SUP]Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? [SUP]17 [/SUP]Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. [SUP]18 [/SUP]A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. [SUP]19 [/SUP]Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. [SUP]20 [/SUP]Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them. [SUP]21 [/SUP]Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. [SUP]22 [/SUP]Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?[SUP]23 [/SUP]And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
[SUP]24 [/SUP]Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock: [SUP]25 [/SUP]And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock. [SUP]26 [/SUP]And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand: [SUP]27 [/SUP]And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.
That is why after that rudiment ... by that same evil tree... those saints are falling down in those wild encounters because they sought to receive the "Spirit" apart from coming to & believing in Jesus Christ at their salvation.
2 Thessalonians 2:[SUP]13 [/SUP]But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth: [SUP]14 [/SUP]Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. [SUP]15 [/SUP]Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.
Ask yourself do those who proclaim receiving the Holy Spirit apart from salvation experiences miracles of supposed healing and casting out of devils and doing other wonderful works in His name? But never a report from the ones they supposedly had helped? Did you read that portion of scripture in Matthew 7:21-23 or not for why you should give pause when people fall in those movements as described in Matthew 7:24-27. That is what they get for going around Jesus Christ for anything else.
John 10:1Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that entereth not by the door into the sheepfold, but climbeth up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber.
John 14:[SUP]6[/SUP]Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me......[SUP]13 [/SUP]And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. [SUP]14 [/SUP]If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it.
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As a born again Christian set free from the shame guilt regret and remorse that comes with sin the immediate effect I had was peace in the mind and joy in just being alive breathing the years of drug abuse and crime was erased and I no longer was that man again I died and was resurrected in Christ .Now the hard part is the obedience righteousness a very narrow path a gentleman a giver a lover a brother surrounded by brothers in Christ in a faith based rehab we pushed through comfort evangelising on the street giving our time feeding the needy ,something else starts to happen when u pray you feel the Holy Ghost like bolts of lightning going through your hands and when u feel the most ashamed embarrassed facing persecution humility but do so representing his word stepping out in faith miracles happen I seen complete healing of disabled hearing returned to the deaf families restored hardcore gangsters going to Christ , I would encourage everyone to pray in toungue it’s praying directly into the spirit the lay of hands healing stuff is next level though you really have step out and face rejection and disappointment obedience to god overcome this of course.