Is John's Wrath to Come the same period as the Great Tribulation?

[louis]

Matt 3:7 But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming for baptism, he said to them, “You brood of vipers, who warned you to flee from the wrath to come?

Mat 24:21 For then there will be a great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will.

I think they are one and the same.

From what I understand of scriptures; when the Antichrist stops the carnage (sacrifice) that will be ensuing in the Middle East which is at the commencing of the second half of the week (7 years) spoken of in Daniel 9:27, is when the great tribulation spoken of in Matthew 24:21 is ensuing.
When the Antichrist sets up his new world order in the 2nd half of the week he will cause craft to prosper (Daniel 8:25).
With business prospering throughout the whole world; the whole world will love the new world order that he enacts which will last for forty two months (Revelation 13:4-5). It is after the second half of the week (forty two months) concludes, when the Lords wrath against the beast, the Antichrist, and all the other faithless commences.

Daniel 9:27 [FONT=&quot]And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.[/FONT]

Daniel 8:25 [FONT=&quot]And through his policy also he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify himself in his heart, and by peace shall destroy many: he shall also stand up against the Prince of princes; but he shall be broken without hand.

[/FONT]Revelation 13:4 [FONT=&quot]And they [/FONT][FONT=Helvetica Neue, Verdana, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif]worshiped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshiped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?[/FONT][FONT=&quot]5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.[/FONT]

 

[oldethennew]

The Great Day of The Lord', is God's 'judgment' -
The Great Tribulation is what man has and is 'bringing upon himself'...

 

[Locutus]

From what I understand of scriptures; when the Antichrist stops the carnage (sacrifice) that will be ensuing in the Middle East which is at the commencing of the second half of the week (7 years) spoken of in Daniel 9:27, is when the great tribulation spoken of in Matthew 24:21 is ensuing.

This has got to be one of the most bizarre eisegesis I've ever seen - so what does the grain offering represent - war on vegetarians?

Dan 9:27 “And he will make a firm covenant with the many for one week, but in the middle of the week he will put a stop to sacrifice and grain offering; and on the wing of abominations will come one who makes desolate, even until a complete destruction, one that is decreed, is poured out on the one who makes desolate.”

 

[louis]

This has got to be one of the most bizarre eisegesis I've ever seen - so what does the grain offering represent - war on vegetarians?

Dan 9:27 “And he will make a firm covenant with the many for one week, but in the middle of the week he will put a stop to sacrifice and grain offering; and on the wing of abominations will come one who makes desolate, even until a complete destruction, one that is decreed, is poured out on the one who makes desolate.”

I use the King James Version which states oblation, not grain offering.
Oblation means what one offers from themself to God in reverence to Him.
As I stated in my previous post, when the Antichrist sets up his system, the whole world is going to love it as it will usher in an age of great prosperity.
Even the two witnesses, after they finish their 42 months of testifying will be overcome by the beasts Utopia (Revelation 11:7).
So too will all the saints by overcome by the beasts Utopia (Daniel 7:25; 8:24-25; & Revelation 13:7).

What all this means is that our current reverence (oblation) to the Lord will erode when the Antichrist is standing in our hearts in place of God, where he should not be standing (Matthew 24:15).

Revelation 11:7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.

Daniel 7:25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.
Daniel 8:24 And his power shall be mighty, but not by his own power: and he shall destroy wonderfully, and shall prosper, and practise, and shall destroy the mighty and the holy people.25 And through his policy also he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify himself in his heart, and by peace shall destroy many: he shall also stand up against the Prince of princes; but he shall be broken without hand.

Revelation 13:7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

Matthew 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand).

 

[peacefulbeliever]

So, basically, PW - you are saying that Christ second coming has been fulfilled?

Are you saying that ALL scripture has been fulfilled including Revelation?

Just trying to clarify your eschatological stance . . . I don't believe I have ever heard that Christ has already returned, i.e. the second coming has been fulfilled. Thanks.

 

[Snoozy]

So, basically, PW - you are saying that Christ second coming has been fulfilled?

yes thats exactly what hes saying. hes a big time heretic. PlainWrong is saying the second coming already happened. he has been preaching this doctrine on here for a long time as u can see from his join date. i dont know why the owners of this website allow it to continue?? alot of new christians can get trapped into this heresy because they're new and unlearned in the faith and then its hard for them to climb back up from that hole.

now wrap ur head around that.
we should be past the millennial kingdom and in eternity already.

these guys are so wrong on this it aint even funny. its one of the last times deceptions for sure. Jesus compared us to sheep and sheep are some of the dumbest animals out there. but i hope to God we got enough grace to not fall into this clear heresy of saying Jesus already returned and the rapture already happened.

 

[PlainWord]

From what I understand of scriptures; when the Antichrist stops the carnage (sacrifice) that will be ensuing in the Middle East which is at the commencing of the second half of the week (7 years) spoken of in Daniel 9:27, is when the great tribulation spoken of in Matthew 24:21 is ensuing.
When the Antichrist sets up his new world order in the 2nd half of the week he will cause craft to prosper (Daniel 8:25).
With business prospering throughout the whole world; the whole world will love the new world order that he enacts which will last for forty two months (Revelation 13:4-5). It is after the second half of the week (forty two months) concludes, when the Lords wrath against the beast, the Antichrist, and all the other faithless commences.

Daniel 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

Daniel 8:25 And through his policy also he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify himself in his heart, and by peace shall destroy many: he shall also stand up against the Prince of princes; but he shall be broken without hand.

Revelation 13:4 And they worshiped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshiped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.

So we have a future interpretation applied to events long since fulfilled in the past. Dan 9:27 took place in the first century. Dan 8 took place in the 2nd century BC during the War of the Maccabees, and Rev 13 is again in the first century.

 

[louis]

So we have a future interpretation applied to events long since fulfilled in the past. Dan 9:27 took place in the first century. Dan 8 took place in the 2nd century BC during the War of the Maccabees, and Rev 13 is again in the first century.

The angel in Daniel 8:17 & 19 informs Daniel that the events he was shown in chapters 7 and 8 are in regards to the end times. If as you claim these events occurred in the 2nd century BC, could you elaborate on what end times you believe occurred back then?

Daniel 8:17 [FONT=&quot]So he came near where I stood: and when he came, I was afraid, and fell upon my face: but he said unto me, Understand, O son of man: for at the time of the end shall be the vision.[/FONT][FONT=&quot]19 And he said, Behold, I will make thee know what shall be in the last end of the indignation: for at the time appointed the end shall be.[/FONT]

 

[PlainWord]

So, basically, PW - you are saying that Christ second coming has been fulfilled?

Are you saying that ALL scripture has been fulfilled including Revelation?

Just trying to clarify your eschatological stance . . . I don't believe I have ever heard that Christ has already returned, i.e. the second coming has been fulfilled. Thanks.

Correct, what you think of as the Second Coming of Christ you (and most of the Church) misunderstand. Christ's presence (parousia) returned as I pointed out from the actual Greek text. His presence returned to punish and destroy apostate Israel, to resurrect the saints (whose souls previously had been trapped in Hades), and to establish His kingdom which will never be destroyed. This Kingdom DOES NOT COME WITH OBSERVATION, therefore it is 100% spiritual. Those of us who are believers enter this spiritual kingdom upon salvation and while it remains invisible to us we have its power and we battle in its realm against evil every day.

I'm not saying all scripture has been fulfilled, Jesus says it Himself as recorded several places in the Gospels:

Lk 21:22 For these are the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.

Lk 24:44: Then He said to them, “These are the words which I spoke to you while I was still with you, that all things must be fulfilled which were written in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms concerning Me.”

John 19:28 After this, Jesus, knowing that all things were now accomplished, that the Scripture might be fulfilled, said, “I thirst!”

Thus all OT things written about Jesus were fulfilled meaning there is no more work for Him to do. He restored all things by making a direct path for man back to God which was severed in the Garden.

Peter gives this very lesson in Acts 3:

[SUP]19 [/SUP]Repent therefore and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, so that times of refreshing may come from the presence (parousia) of the Lord, [SUP]20 [/SUP]and that He may send Jesus Christ, who was preached to you before, [SUP]21 [/SUP]whom heaven must receive until the times of restoration of all things, which God has spoken by the mouth of all His holy prophets since the world began.

This happened in 70 AD when the Law Age came to an end and the Messianic Age stood by itself. There was a 40 year transition from the Cross to the destruction of the temple. This was the same transition from Egypt to their arrival in the Land. Most Christians have no appreciation for the magnitude of the events of 70 AD when the Law passed and the restoration which came through Christ. These events make up the very foundation of our beliefs.

Revelation is almost entirely fulfilled. All the seals, trumpets and bowls were long ago used. Jesus, as the bright angel in Rev 18:1 returned in 66-70 AD. Revelation starts this way:

The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show His servants—things which must shortly take place. And He sent and signified it by His angel to His servant John, [SUP]2 [/SUP]who bore witness to the word of God, and to the testimony of Jesus Christ, to all things that he saw. [SUP]3 [/SUP]Blessed is he who reads and those who hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written in it; for the time is near.

Revelation was sent to 7 real churches of Asia Minor. The message was for them and had real meaning to them, because the time was at hand, just as Jesus foretold repeatedly.

Since 70 AD, Christians who die, their souls immediately go to heaven where they are glorified into spiritual beings. This is how it has been for nearly 2,000 years. Christ is reigning right now on heaven and on earth as stated by Christ following His resurrection.

Mt 28:18 And Jesus came and spoke to them, saying, “All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth.

 

[Snoozy]

So we have a future interpretation applied to events long since fulfilled in the past. Dan 9:27 took place in the first century. Dan 8 took place in the 2nd century BC during the War of the Maccabees, and Rev 13 is again in the first century.

i cant remember there being a mark of the beast preventing people from buying or selling in the first century?

rev 13:7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.
according to what u say this was just jerusalem in first century, last time i checked that didnt mean all kindreds tongues and nations.

this alone proves ur theory to be false. its plainwrong. i really hope ur not teaching this at any church are u?

 

[oldethennew]

the evils that go on in this 'fallen-world' on a daily basis,
are definitely not 'invisible'...

 

[PlainWord]

The angel in Daniel 8:17 & 19 informs Daniel that the events he was shown in chapters 7 and 8 are in regards to the end times. If as you claim these events occurred in the 2nd century BC, could you elaborate on what end times you believe occurred back then?

Daniel 8:17 So he came near where I stood: and when he came, I was afraid, and fell upon my face: but he said unto me, Understand, O son of man: for at the time of the end shall be the vision.19 And he said, Behold, I will make thee know what shall be in the last end of the indignation: for at the time appointed the end shall be.

Let's start with Dan 8 because it happens first. Dan 8 starts with the vision of Alexander the Great's fast attack against the Medes and Persians. We don't have to guess about this because we are told this clearly here:

[SUP]20 [/SUP]The ram which you saw, having the two horns—they are the kings of Media and Persia. [SUP]21 [/SUP]And the male goat is the kingdom of Greece. The large horn that is between its eyes is the first king. [SUP]22 [/SUP]As for the broken horn and the four that stood up in its place, four kingdoms shall arise out of that nation, but not with its power.

The four kingdoms were the Alexander's four generals which split up his kingdom upon his death. The "time of the end" refers to the time of the end of the Greek Empire. If we read on we come to verse 23 which says this: “And in the latter time of their kingdom, When the transgressors have reached their fullness, A king shall arise..."

Now we can see clearly that it is the latter time of their kingdom, not the world. This king mentioned here was Antiochus IV Epiphanes. The fourth kingdom in Rev 7 was the Roman Empire. It was during this "terrible" empire that Christ would set up His kingdom. Since Christ's kingdom is everlasting, it is not of this planet Earth.

 

[louis]

Let's start with Dan 8 because it happens first. Dan 8 starts with the vision of Alexander the Great's fast attack against the Medes and Persians. We don't have to guess about this because we are told this clearly here:

[SUP]20 [/SUP]The ram which you saw, having the two horns—they are the kings of Media and Persia. [SUP]21 [/SUP]And the male goat is the kingdom of Greece. The large horn that is between its eyes is the first king. [SUP]22 [/SUP]As for the broken horn and the four that stood up in its place, four kingdoms shall arise out of that nation, but not with its power.

The four kingdoms were the Alexander's four generals which split up his kingdom upon his death. The "time of the end" refers to the time of the end of the Greek Empire. If we read on we come to verse 23 which says this: “And in the latter time of their kingdom, When the transgressors have reached their fullness, A king shall arise..."

Now we can see clearly that it is the latter time of their kingdom, not the world. This king mentioned here was Antiochus IV Epiphanes. The fourth kingdom in Rev 7 was the Roman Empire. It was during this "terrible" empire that Christ would set up His kingdom. Since Christ's kingdom is everlasting, it is not of this planet Earth.

Do you not recognize how your claim that these events refer to the end of the Greek empire, when the angel makes clear twice that these events are in regards to the end times, makes God out to be an incompetent author, who can't even say what He really means?
By claiming the end times refer to the Greek empire, one can then spin just about any scriptures to mean just about anything the devil puts into our heads.

Correlating with the end time events in chapters 7 through 9 relate, are the events in chapters 11 & 12, to which Daniel is informed in Daniel 12: 4 & 9 regard the end times. In Daniel 11:2, as in chapter 8 we see the king of Greece is mentioned; are these events also in regards to the 2nd century BC before the Greek empire comes to a close?
Were these words unsealed in the 2nd century BC as indicated in Daniel 12:4 & 9 they would be unsealed?
The answer is they were not unsealed in the 2nd century BC, and are only now begging to be unsealed with our knowledge of these events increasing.

Daniel 11:2 [FONT=&quot]And now will I shew thee the truth. Behold, there shall stand up yet three kings in Persia; and the fourth shall be far richer than[/FONT][FONT=&quot] they all: and by his strength through his riches he shall stir up all against the realm of Grecia.[/FONT]
12:4 [FONT=&quot]But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.[/FONT][FONT=&quot]9 And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end.[/FONT]

 

[PlainWord]

i cant remember there being a mark of the beast preventing people from buying or selling in the first century?

rev 13:7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.
according to what u say this was just jerusalem in first century, last time i checked that didnt mean all kindreds tongues and nations.

this alone proves ur theory to be false. its plainwrong. i really hope ur not teaching this at any church are u?

I've explained this to you a dozen times but you can't seem to grasp it. Who does John take much of his imagery from? Daniel right? So what was the fourth beast of Daniel? It was Rome. Did Rome make war with Christians? Did Rome have power over all nations (the known world)?

 

[PlainWord]

Louis,

Do you not recognize how your claim that these events refer to the end of the Greek empire, when the angel makes clear twice that these events are in regards to the end times, makes God out to be an incompetent author, who can't even say what He really means?
By claiming the end times refer to the Greek empire, one can then spin just about any scriptures to mean just about anything the devil puts into our heads.

Does the angel say the "end of the planet?" No, he doesn't. Please read it again:

“Understand, son of man, that the vision refers to the time of the end.”

And he said, “Look, I am making known to you what shall happen in the latter time of the indignation; for at the appointed time the end shall be.

There are lots of things that end. Games end, wars end, books end, marriages end, life ends, and nations end, etc. You have to understand the context of the passage, which clearly you don't. Nowhere is Daniel discussing planet Earth coming to an end. At the end of Dan 9, Daniel is being told about the end of Israel. The "consummation" is the burning of Jerusalem, the last city to fall in their war with Rome (66-70 AD). The "desolate" were the unbelieving Jews of that day.

Dan 12: [SUP]4 [/SUP]“But you, Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book until the time of the end; many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall increase.”

This happened at Pentecost. Compare it to Peter's words from Acts 2 which he takes from Joel:

‘And it shall come to pass in the last days, says God, That I will pour out of My Spirit on all flesh; Your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, Your young men shall see visions, Your old men shall dream dreams.

Peter is invoking this passage because they were in the last days (of their country and the Mosaic Age). Peter is not referring to some earth future thousands of years into the future.

You and me are Americans. Let's say that on Sep 9, 2020 the United States will be destroyed by nuclear attack from several hostile nations and we are among the few to know this (because the Son of God told us). We would be running around trying to warn people, "in our last days." Well, that was the situation with Peter and the 12. We would be talking in the same dire terms as they did.

The Bible largely chronicles the history of the nation of Israel, God's chosen people. Don't you think the end of Israel for nearly 2,000 years would get some attention especially as they enter the last generation which is when Christ came and the disciples went forth?

 

[louis]

Louis,



Does the angel say the "end of the planet?" No, he doesn't. Please read it again:

“Understand, son of man, that the vision refers to the time of the end.”

And he said, “Look, I am making known to you what shall happen in the latter time of the indignation; for at the appointed time the end shall be.

There are lots of things that end. Games end, wars end, books end, marriages end, life ends, and nations end, etc. You have to understand the context of the passage, which clearly you don't. Nowhere is Daniel discussing planet Earth coming to an end. At the end of Dan 9, Daniel is being told about the end of Israel. The "consummation" is the burning of Jerusalem, the last city to fall in their war with Rome (66-70 AD). The "desolate" were the unbelieving Jews of that day.

Dan 12: [SUP]4 [/SUP]“But you, Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book until the time of the end; many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall increase.”

This happened at Pentecost. Compare it to Peter's words from Acts 2 which he takes from Joel:

‘And it shall come to pass in the last days, says God, That I will pour out of My Spirit on all flesh; Your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, Your young men shall see visions, Your old men shall dream dreams.

Peter is invoking this passage because they were in the last days (of their country and the Mosaic Age). Peter is not referring to some earth future thousands of years into the future.

You and me are Americans. Let's say that on Sep 9, 2020 the United States will be destroyed by nuclear attack from several hostile nations and we are among the few to know this (because the Son of God told us). We would be running around trying to warn people, "in our last days." Well, that was the situation with Peter and the 12. We would be talking in the same dire terms as they did.

The Bible largely chronicles the history of the nation of Israel, God's chosen people. Don't you think the end of Israel for nearly 2,000 years would get some attention especially as they enter the last generation which is when Christ came and the disciples went forth?

You did not address how Grecia in Daniel 11:2 which corresponds to the end times as stated in Daniel 12:4 & 9 fits into your 2nd century BC perspective.
I also notice from your previous post that you have claimed the beast with ten horns from Daniel 7 having been Rome.
Are you aware this is the same beast with ten horns which appears in Revelation 13, of which the criteria mentioned does not apply to Rome?
Where and when was the name or number of the beast applied to everyone's hands or foreheads during ancient Rome?

The time of the end as specified in Daniel 7 and Revelation 12 refers to the end of the current world orders under Satan which come to a close at the end of the beasts 42 months, at which time the Lord commences to reign on earth with His saints (Daniel 7:22 & 27; Revelation 12:10).

Daniel 7:22 [FONT=&quot]Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.[/FONT]
27 [FONT=&quot]And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High, whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him.[/FONT]

Revelation 12:10 [FONT=&quot]And I heard a loud voice[/FONT][FONT=&quot] saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.[/FONT]

 

[peacefulbeliever]

Correct, what you think of as the Second Coming of Christ you (and most of the Church) misunderstand. Christ's presence (parousia) returned as I pointed out from the actual Greek text. His presence returned to punish and destroy apostate Israel, to resurrect the saints (whose souls previously had been trapped in Hades), and to establish His kingdom which will never be destroyed. This Kingdom DOES NOT COME WITH OBSERVATION, therefore it is 100% spiritual. Those of us who are believers enter this spiritual kingdom upon salvation and while it remains invisible to us we have its power and we battle in its realm against evil every day.

I'm not saying all scripture has been fulfilled, Jesus says it Himself as recorded several places in the Gospels:

Lk 21:22 For these are the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.

Lk 24:44: Then He said to them, “These are the words which I spoke to you while I was still with you, that all things must be fulfilled which were written in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms concerning Me.”

John 19:28 After this, Jesus, knowing that all things were now accomplished, that the Scripture might be fulfilled, said, “I thirst!”

Thus all OT things written about Jesus were fulfilled meaning there is no more work for Him to do. He restored all things by making a direct path for man back to God which was severed in the Garden.

Peter gives this very lesson in Acts 3:

[SUP]19 [/SUP]Repent therefore and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, so that times of refreshing may come from the presence (parousia) of the Lord, [SUP]20 [/SUP]and that He may send Jesus Christ, who was preached to you before, [SUP]21 [/SUP]whom heaven must receive until the times of restoration of all things, which God has spoken by the mouth of all His holy prophets since the world began.

This happened in 70 AD when the Law Age came to an end and the Messianic Age stood by itself. There was a 40 year transition from the Cross to the destruction of the temple. This was the same transition from Egypt to their arrival in the Land. Most Christians have no appreciation for the magnitude of the events of 70 AD when the Law passed and the restoration which came through Christ. These events make up the very foundation of our beliefs.

Revelation is almost entirely fulfilled. All the seals, trumpets and bowls were long ago used. Jesus, as the bright angel in Rev 18:1 returned in 66-70 AD. Revelation starts this way:

The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show His servants—things which must shortly take place. And He sent and signified it by His angel to His servant John, [SUP]2 [/SUP]who bore witness to the word of God, and to the testimony of Jesus Christ, to all things that he saw. [SUP]3 [/SUP]Blessed is he who reads and those who hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written in it; for the time is near.

Revelation was sent to 7 real churches of Asia Minor. The message was for them and had real meaning to them, because the time was at hand, just as Jesus foretold repeatedly.

Since 70 AD, Christians who die, their souls immediately go to heaven where they are glorified into spiritual beings. This is how it has been for nearly 2,000 years. Christ is reigning right now on heaven and on earth as stated by Christ following His resurrection.

Mt 28:18 And Jesus came and spoke to them, saying, “All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth.

To say Christ has returned and we are living in the Everlasting Kingdom cannot be true for there are things that don't line up with the view of the Everlasting Kingdom and the "era" in which we live:

Isaiah 35: 4b-10 . . . eyes of the blind will be open; the ears of the deaf shall be unstopped; the lame shall leap like a deer; the mute tongue will shout for joy; water will gush forth in the wilderness and streams in the desert . . . a highway will be there; it will be called the Way of Holiness; it will be for those who walk on that Way. The unclean will not journey on it; wicked fools will not go about on it. No lion will be there, nor any ravenous beast; they will not be found there . . .

Last I saw we still have the blind, deaf and mute; we still have the lame. We are walking amidst the "unclean" and "wicked fools".

And this: Awake, awake, Zion, clothe yourself with strength! Put on your garments of splendor, Jerusalem, the holy city. The uncircumcised and defiled will not enter you again. . . . Isaiah 52:6 . . . Just look at the people entering Jerusalem today and tell me that this prophecy is fulfilled?

What was fulfilled was the law concerning the Levitical Priesthood and the need for making sacrifices year after year to atone for sin. What was fulfilled was doing the 613 commandments/laws to obtain righteousness, and much more but Christ has not returned to claim his redeemed!

The wolf will live with the lamb, the leopard will lie down with the goat, the calf and the lion and the yearling together; and a little child will lead them. The cow will feed with the bear, their young will lie down together, and the lion will eat straw like the ox. The infant will play near the cobra's den, the young child will put its hand into the viper's nest. They will neither harm nor destroy on all my holy mountain, for the earth will be filled with the knowledge of the LORD . . . (Isaiah 11)

What about the promises - such as, no more tears, no more death, no more mourning or crying or pain?

If everything has been fulfilled what was the purpose of God giving us his word? What is the purpose of a book covering sin and righteousness - giving people hope; when it's all been fulfilled? Where is our hope?

 

[PlainWord]

Louis,

You did not address how Grecia in Daniel 11:2 which corresponds to the end times as stated in Daniel 12:4 & 9 fits into your 2nd century BC perspective.
I also notice from your previous post that you have claimed the beast with ten horns from Daniel 7 having been Rome.
Are you aware this is the same beast with ten horns which appears in Revelation 13, of which the criteria mentioned does not apply to Rome?
Where and when was the name or number of the beast applied to everyone's hands or foreheads during ancient Rome?

You do realize don't you that John writes Revelation with a great deal of figurative (colorful) language taken from the OT prophets? I hope you realize this.

Did the 144K of Rev 7 actually get a seal placed on their foreheads?
Did Cain receive a visible mark in Gen 4?
Did angels actually place a literal mark on the foreheads of those who cried in Ez 9?

Therefore, the "mark" of Rev 13 is figurative. On the "foreheads and hands" means being aligned with and carrying out the commands of the beast. If you read this passage carefully, you will see that having the "mark" is not the only way one can buy or sell. Notice one can also have the name or number of the beast's name too. Only one of these 3 is required which totally negates the computer chip theory espoused by many.

and that no one may buy or sell except one who has the mark or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.

Sadly I don't have time to answer more fully as I have to go. But I'd be happy to next time I come on.

 

[Locutus]

To say Christ has returned and we are living in the Everlasting Kingdom cannot be true for there are things that don't line up with the view of the Everlasting Kingdom and the "era" in which we live:

What about the promises - such as, no more tears, no more death, no more mourning or crying or pain?

If everything has been fulfilled what was the purpose of God giving us his word? What is the purpose of a book covering sin and righteousness - giving people hope; when it's all been fulfilled? Where is our hope?

Well, you are mixing and matching concepts from various parts of the bible rather than understanding the whole - you could ask why read about the Flood, Exodus, the destruction of the first temple etc., all fulfilled - what's the point?

Just because from the preterist perspective of all fulfilled does not imply there is no point in having a "book" because certain things are still valid such as:

John 10:1 The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.

The above did not change in 70 AD.

John 20:31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

Nothing changed here either - at death all Christians after 70 AD are translated to life eternal - in the immortal/spiritual body. That is the promise laid out through the scriptures.

John 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

The life we have now in this flesh and bones body is partly "life eternal" because we are known and know God and Christ, the full inheritance of this life eternal occurs at death.

 

[Snoozy]

these full preterist heretics also reject bodily resurrection

im not surprised

stop at once spreading this nonsense