The Gross Error of Limited Atonement

[SovereignGrace]

Romans 5.6 ...Christ died for the ungodly.
And who are the ungodly? Elect or non elect? The scripture of truth says both. For all have sinned.

Any text w/o context is pretext for a proof text.

Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom also we have obtained our introduction by faith into this grace in which we stand; and we exult in hope of the glory of God. And not only this, but we also exult in our tribulations, knowing that tribulation brings about perseverance;and perseverance, proven character; and proven character, hope;and hope does not disappoint, because the love of God has been poured out within our hearts through the Holy Spirit who was given to us. For while we were still helpless, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly. For one will hardly die for a righteous man; though perhaps for the good man someone would dare even to die. But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him. For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life. And not only this, but we also exult in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received the reconciliation.[Romans 5:1-11]

This jives with the Doctrines of Grace. The Christ died for the ungodly, as He said He gives His life for the sheep.[John 10:11,15]

 

[phil36]

John 1:11 the elect rejected Him.

When those bidden to the feast made excuse that they could not attend the Master sent forth into the highways to furnish His feast with guests.

The gospel is the gospel for all men not just the select few. God is merciful and presents an opportunity to be saved to every soul that comes into the world.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Hi Roger,

Not all Israel where children of promise, God indeed saved a remnant 1 Kings 19:18; Galatians 4;Matt 3:9; John 8:39ff..

Salvation has always been by the promise made to Abraham not the law.. therefore, the nation Israel as a whole rejected Him, but there was a remnant, when you look at the passage you gace John 1:11, read verse 12..but to all who did receive Him...become children of God.

W do not have to go very far to see that Jews in fact did believe in Him - Someon, Anna.. but something spectacular was happening... the Gentiles were now part of God's redemptive plan in a more direct way. the wall of hostility was gone.

So although as you say the 'elect' as in ethnic jews rejected their Messiah, there was a remnant of ethnic jews who did not. In fact were not the Apostles Jews. So straight away Roger your argument falls.

The feast is highlighting what I have just said.. those who thought they were righteous and the children of God in fact where not, only to those whom are the children of Abraham is the promise effectual.

Oh and I agree we are to take the gospel call to all men everywhere. It is up to God who hears that call.. dead men can't hear or see, nor do they want to.. Men love their darkness and don't want to come into the light (Jesus says similar)

 

[SovereignGrace]

Hi Roger,

Not all Israel where children of promise, God indeed saved a remnant 1 Kings 19:18; Galatians 4;Matt 3:9; John 8:39ff..

Salvation has always been by the promise made to Abraham not the law.. therefore, the nation Israel as a whole rejected Him, but there was a remnant, when you look at the passage you gace John 1:11, read verse 12..but to all who did receive Him...become children of God.

W do not have to go very far to see that Jews in fact did believe in Him - Someon, Anna.. but something spectacular was happening... the Gentiles were now part of God's redemptive plan in a more direct way. the wall of hostility was gone.

So although as you say the 'elect' as in ethnic jews rejected their Messiah, there was a remnant of ethnic jews who did not. In fact were not the Apostles Jews. So straight away Roger your argument falls.

The feast is highlighting what I have just said.. those who thought they were righteous and the children of God in fact where not, only to those whom are the children of Abraham is the promise effectual.

Oh and I agree we are to take the gospel call to all men everywhere. It is up to God who hears that call.. dead men can't hear or see, nor do they want to.. Men love their darkness and don't want to come into the light (Jesus says similar)

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to phil36 again....BAH!!!!

 

[preacher4truth]

Then you remove the responsibility of man in the matter of sin. If it is nature then man is not responsible.

You'd be incorrect:

And you were dead in the trespasses and sins in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience— among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind.

Simple lack of understanding.

Yet Scripture is there to reprove us, to correct us, and you particularly here at this point, as above.

All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work.

 

[SovereignGrace]

Hi Roger,

Not all Israel where children of promise, God indeed saved a remnant 1 Kings 19:18; Galatians 4;Matt 3:9; John 8:39ff..

Salvation has always been by the promise made to Abraham not the law.. therefore, the nation Israel as a whole rejected Him, but there was a remnant, when you look at the passage you gace John 1:11, read verse 12..but to all who did receive Him...become children of God.

W do not have to go very far to see that Jews in fact did believe in Him - Someon, Anna.. but something spectacular was happening... the Gentiles were now part of God's redemptive plan in a more direct way. the wall of hostility was gone.

So although as you say the 'elect' as in ethnic jews rejected their Messiah, there was a remnant of ethnic jews who did not. In fact were not the Apostles Jews. So straight away Roger your argument falls.

The feast is highlighting what I have just said.. those who thought they were righteous and the children of God in fact where not, only to those whom are the children of Abraham is the promise effectual.

Oh and I agree we are to take the gospel call to all men everywhere. It is up to God who hears that call.. dead men can't hear or see, nor do they want to.. Men love their darkness and don't want to come into the light (Jesus says similar)

Seeing I have him on ignore, I can only read his postings when someone quotes his posts. This caught my attention...

The gospel is the gospel for all men not just the select few. God is merciful and presents an opportunity to be saved to every soul that comes into the world.

My pastor and church are dispys. He loaned me a book written by C. I. Scofield titled 'Prophecy made plain." Seeing he died ~ 1921, this was a rather old book. In it, he said over 8 million ppl had not heard the gospel, and that # was probably ~ 1900 AD, seeing I don't know the actual year he wrote that book.

Now, of those 8 million who died w/o hearing the gospel, I am sure Rog will go to Romans 1:20 as his proof text. That's all they do is proof text their way into a systematic theology that has no system to it. Just a bunch of mish-mashed scriptures melded together.

 

[preacher4truth]

Seeing I have him on ignore, I can only read his postings when someone quotes his posts. This caught my attention...


My pastor and church are dispys. He loaned me a book written by C. I. Scofield titled 'Prophecy made plain." Seeing he died ~ 1921, this was a rather old book. In it, he said over 8 million ppl had not heard the gospel, and that # was probably ~ 1900 AD, seeing I don't know the actual year he wrote that book.

Now, of those 8 million who died w/o hearing the gospel, I am sure Rog will go to Romans 1:20 as his proof text. That's all they do is proof text their way into a systematic theology that has no system to it. Just a bunch of mish-mashed scriptures melded together.

Lot's of people are like Rog. They have Rock Skipping Theology ©; they skim the surface and only land on a text briefly here and there.

 

[notuptome]

Hi Roger,

Not all Israel where children of promise, God indeed saved a remnant 1 Kings 19:18; Galatians 4;Matt 3:9; John 8:39ff..

Salvation has always been by the promise made to Abraham not the law.. therefore, the nation Israel as a whole rejected Him, but there was a remnant, when you look at the passage you gace John 1:11, read verse 12..but to all who did receive Him...become children of God.

W do not have to go very far to see that Jews in fact did believe in Him - Someon, Anna.. but something spectacular was happening... the Gentiles were now part of God's redemptive plan in a more direct way. the wall of hostility was gone.

So although as you say the 'elect' as in ethnic jews rejected their Messiah, there was a remnant of ethnic jews who did not. In fact were not the Apostles Jews. So straight away Roger your argument falls.

The feast is highlighting what I have just said.. those who thought they were righteous and the children of God in fact where not, only to those whom are the children of Abraham is the promise effectual.

Oh and I agree we are to take the gospel call to all men everywhere. It is up to God who hears that call.. dead men can't hear or see, nor do they want to.. Men love their darkness and don't want to come into the light (Jesus says similar)

Men are only dead spiritually not physically. Men have an ability to choose. What caused you to respond to the gospel? What was your response?

Faith comes from hearing and hearing the word of God. The Holy Spirit moves in a mans heart through the word of God to convict a man that he is a sinner and that as a sinner he justly deserves eternal condemnation. The Holy Spirit shows forth the righteousness of Christ as pleasing to the Father. Christ as our only Savior.

You frustrate the grace of God by elevating election above the goodness of God which leads men to repentance. Grace is not rendered of no effect because some will not believe. How many in the church profess that which they do not possess? They have a gospel that does not rely on the Holy Spirit to bring them to Christ. A gospel of election rather than mercy.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[notuptome]

You'd be incorrect:

And you were dead in the trespasses and sins in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience— among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind.

Before I was saved I was indeed an enemy of God. Yet Christ died for me knowing I was His enemy. Mercy for me who deserved only condemnation.

Yet Scripture is there to reprove us, to correct us, and you particularly here at this point, as above.

All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work.

Relevance?

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[phil36]

Men are only dead spiritually not physically. Men have an ability to choose. What caused you to respond to the gospel? What was your response?

Faith comes from hearing and hearing the word of God. The Holy Spirit moves in a mans heart through the word of God to convict a man that he is a sinner and that as a sinner he justly deserves eternal condemnation. The Holy Spirit shows forth the righteousness of Christ as pleasing to the Father. Christ as our only Savior.

You frustrate the grace of God by elevating election above the goodness of God which leads men to repentance. Grace is not rendered of no effect because some will not believe. How many in the church profess that which they do not possess? They have a gospel that does not rely on the Holy Spirit to bring them to Christ. A gospel of election rather than mercy.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Hi Roger,

I know that it is Spiritual death that is why they can do nothing morally good pleasing to God, that is also why they will never come out of their darkness.

Your right faith comes by hearing, and yet (spiritually dead) men do not hear the things of God in fact they outright reject them. The Holy Spirit renews the heart this opens the eyes and ears and bring newness of life, so that the man who was dead but now is alive WILL believe.

Grace is not frustrated, indeed it is magnified by the fact that God brings the dead and raises them to newness of life in His Son. Remember man in his sinful state does not want God's grace! God saving his sheep is real mercy indeed!

 

[Laish]

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to phil36 again....BAH!!!!

Got your back.
Blessings
Bill

 

[SovereignGrace]

Hi Roger,

I know that it is Spiritual death that is why they can do nothing morally good pleasing to God, that is also why they will never come out of their darkness.

Your right faith comes by hearing, and yet (spiritually dead) men do not hear the things of God in fact they outright reject them. The Holy Spirit renews the heart this opens the eyes and ears and bring newness of life, so that the man who was dead but now is alive WILL believe.

Grace is not frustrated, indeed it is magnified by the fact that God brings the dead and raises them to newness of life in His Son. Remember man in his sinful state does not want God's grace! God saving his sheep is real mercy indeed!

All Rog is averring is mental assent. Hey, they’re only spiritually dead. That’s no big deal at all. Uh-huh.

 

[notuptome]

Hi Roger,

I know that it is Spiritual death that is why they can do nothing morally good pleasing to God, that is also why they will never come out of their darkness.

Your right faith comes by hearing, and yet (spiritually dead) men do not hear the things of God in fact they outright reject them. The Holy Spirit renews the heart this opens the eyes and ears and bring newness of life, so that the man who was dead but now is alive WILL believe.

Grace is not frustrated, indeed it is magnified by the fact that God brings the dead and raises them to newness of life in His Son. Remember man in his sinful state does not want God's grace! God saving his sheep is real mercy indeed!

So how were you saved? Were you saved against your will?

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[notuptome]

All Rog is averring is mental assent. Hey, they’re only spiritually dead. That’s no big deal at all. Uh-huh.

Bold for a guy that hides behind his ignore button. Just because man is unable to save himself does not dictate that man is unable to respond to the gospel.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[preacher4truth]

Bold for a guy that hides behind his ignore button.

He's not hiding behind an ignore button, he's hiding YOU behind it. And rightly so due to your reactions and rejection of truth in nearly all of your postings. You've earned it by how you react to others.

Just because man is unable to save himself does not dictate that man is unable to respond to the gospel.

Again, Scripture, as always, refutes you, refutes your false gospel.

No man is able; John 6:65. You don't like this fact, and spend an exorbitant amount of time attempting to prove man is able in the face of what Christ stated as the exact opposite.

For the cause of
Roger

You really need to allow the Word to correct you. Your error rejecting man's responsibility via your fleshly argument has been refuted by the Word time and again, but you will have none of it.

You've made up your own gospel, have granted man a way into the kingdom by his own ability which is rejected by truth.

 

[preacher4truth]

One more thing refuting man having ability within to come into the kingdom?

John 3:7.

 

[UnderGrace]

Your theology is solid as a rock, anyone who has read your posts knows you do not skim the surface.

Thank you for defending the truth from scripture not the systematic theology of men.

I have known many people testify to what you have stated here, they heard, they were convicted of the truth and they believed upon the work of Jesus on the cross and were born again.

Men are only dead spiritually not physically. Men have an ability to choose. What caused you to respond to the gospel? What was your response?

Faith comes from hearing and hearing the word of God. The Holy Spirit moves in a mans heart through the word of God to convict a man that he is a sinner and that as a sinner he justly deserves eternal condemnation. The Holy Spirit shows forth the righteousness of Christ as pleasing to the Father. Christ as our only Savior.

You frustrate the grace of God by elevating election above the goodness of God which leads men to repentance. Grace is not rendered of no effect because some will not believe. How many in the church profess that which they do not possess? They have a gospel that does not rely on the Holy Spirit to bring them to Christ. A gospel of election rather than mercy.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[Nehemiah6]

Again, Scripture, as always, refutes you, refutes your false gospel.

Actually Scripture does not refute Roger since he makes an effort to rightly divide the Word of Truth. On the other hand Scripture refutes you and all those who hold to Calvinisitic doctrines, which are totally man-made, but have a veneer of misinterpreted Scripture.

It has been shown FROM SCRIPTURE over and over again that limited atonement is a false doctrine. If it cannot stand up to the light of Scripture, then the whole house of cards called TULIP falls apart.

 

[Nehemiah6]

This jives with the Doctrines of Grace. The Christ died for the ungodly, as He said He gives His life for the sheep.[John 10:11,15]

Christ also said that He gives His life for the world. So how did you ignore that? And sheep only become sheep after they hear the Gospel, repent, and are converted. Nobody is automatically a sheep.

King James Bible
I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world. (John 6:51)

 

[Laish]

Christ also said that He gives His life for the world. So how did you ignore that? And sheep only become sheep after they hear the Gospel, repent, and are converted. Nobody is automatically a sheep.

King James Bible
I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world. (John 6:51)

Do you also take the rest of this part of John this literally.
KJV John 6: 48I am that bread of life. 49Your fathers did eat manna in the wilderness, and are dead. 50This is the bread which cometh down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die. 51I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.52The Jews therefore strove among themselves, saying, How can this man give us his flesh to eat? 53Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you. 54Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day. 55For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed. 56He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him. 57As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me. 58This is that bread which came down from heaven: not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead: he that eateth of this bread shall live for ever.
Blessings
Bill

 

[Johnny_B]

I would word it differently and say that it is those who obey the Gospel who become the elect. But the point that you are missing is that if all would obey the Gospel, all would be saved. Thus atonement is unlimited.

And the times of this ignorance God winked at [overlooked]; but now commandeth all men every where to repent

Why would God command all men everywhere to repent, unless the atonement was for all men everywhere? But since all will not obey that commandment, all will not be saved, hence the atonement will not be applicable to them. It is only the APPLICATION of the atonement that is limited, not the atonement itself, where Christ took upon Himself the sins of the whole world and became the Propitiation (1 John 2:2).

Again you make a case for limited atonement. What you are not understanding is election. The Lord commands all men to repent because His is a righteous King/Judge, if He would not call all men to repentance and judged them to eternal punishment He would be an unrighteous judge.

Now what does the word grace mean? It is God's unmerited favor, the very definition of grace carries with it not only election but limited atonement as well. Believe me I understand where you are coming from I stuggled with this for a long time and once I understood it I went all the way to the other side and believed in double predestination/election. But in a discussion with peacefulbeliever she brought up some Scpitures that I had to bow to and realized that people are comdemned already because they do not believe, yet God's desire is that they would be saved, but it is not His will that they be saved because if it was they would be saved. They do not obey the command of the King to repent and the King knows they can't so in His soveriegn mercy He calls some to salvation by His unmerited favor which none can be saved without it. Also lets say that someone never broke the Law of God, they still would not be saved, how do I know that, when was the last time someone get and award for never getting a ticket? Never because we are supposted to obey the law, but they is no reward for keeping it, some with the Law of the Lord, this is why He needs to give us His unmerited favor.

Once you understand both election and limited atonement your eyes will be opened to what the Word says about them, you recognize that the "us, we, our(s)" that the apostles use in the epistles are beause they are speaking of those that they are a part of the Church/elect/sheep.

Here is why we need God's unmerited favor, the Law or 10 commandments are the standard by which e Lord will judge mankind Romans 3:19 "Now we know that whatever the law says it speaks to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be stopped, and the whole world may be held accountable to God."

That I read Psalm 58:3-6

"The wicked are estranged from the womb; they go astray from birth, speaking lies. They have venom like the venom of a serpent, like the deaf adder that stops its ear, so that it does not hear the voice of charmers or of the cunning enchanter."

We break the 9th commandment almost as soon as we can talk, when the lovely child grabs another childs toy and say "mine" they just broke three commandments, they lied, they are coveting, and they are stealing. We are guilt from the womb as the Psalmist says.

As an unrentant sinner we hate the Lord and cannot please Him Romans 8:7-8 "For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God's law; indeed, it cannot.8 Those who are in the flesh cannot please God."

With that in mind, how can anyone recieve God's unmerited favor?

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