The Gross Error of Limited Atonement
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Brother the problem is that most people do not understand the power of Christ's atoning work, because they place more power on mans ability to please God in the flesh which the Bible says is impossible Romans 8:7-8 “Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be.8 So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God.”
They do not believe the Scriptures, they believe that man is inherently good and that man has some type of good in them that can please God into giving them His grace to be saved. Which is a complete distortion of the word grace or unmerited favor. They truly believe that grace is God's merited favor and that man in his flesh can please God in a way that He will favor them, which is completely against the Scriptures and this is where I see that Arminians that accuse those that believe in the Doctrines of Grace are believing in a philosophy, when it is them that believe in a philosophy of man has good in him that will please God, again no Scripture shows that. The Scripture teach that man has no good thing in him that will please God, that salvation is a gift from God, not a payment for righteous works done by man. Which I already posted Romans 8:7-8, God's gift, Ephesains 2:8-9 “For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.” Not of works of righteousness, but the goodness of God Titus 3:4-7 “But when the kindness and the love of God our Savior toward man appeared,5 not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit,6 whom He poured out on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior,7 that having been justified by His grace we should become heirs according to the hope of eternal life.”
What I will say is that everyone on this thread did not even try to take on my question, if Christ paid for all the sins of the world. Is the Father just in sending people to hell for sins that are paid for by Christ's atoning death. And no one has even attempted to answer that because they know that it would be double jepardy if Christ's atonement paid for all the sins fo the world as they say they believe but will not deal with the end result of what they believe. Being that if anyone goes to hell for sins that Christ paid for on the cross, the Father would be unjust if He sent one person to hell for sins that Christ paid for in the atonement. He would be unjust in two areas, in sending the person to hell for the sins that Christ paid for in His suffering and He would be unjust by placing the judgement on Christ for the sins of the world, yet sending people in the world to hell for sins that Christ paid for in His atoning work.
Atleast they were honest enough to not even take it on to say that the Father would be just for placing the judgement on Christ for sins of the world an still sending people to hell for sins that Christ paid for. Thanks God they are honest enough to not even try to twist it to fit their doctrine.
So God commands unbelievers to " . .turn from their ways! Turn! Turn from your evil ways"; i.e. repent and "but now commands all men every where to repent:" (Acts 17:30) Why does he command for people to repent knowing that they won't? God gives commands that people won't obey and then punishes them for disobedience?
heart - kardia - b. denotes the center of all physical and spiritual life; 1) the centre and seat of spiritual life; a. the soul or mind, as it is the fountain and seat of the thoughts, passions, desires, appetites, affections, purposes, endeavors b. of the understanding, the faculty and seat of the intelligence; c. of the will and character; d. of the soul so far as it is affected and stirred in a bad way or good, or of the soul as the seat of the sensibilities, affections, emotions, desires, appetites, passions . . . . So, by definition, I would have to disagree and stick with: They can hear the word of God, they can become fully persuaded, i.e. believe that what they have heard is truth and make a decision to turn from their evil ways and trust God for their salvation.
That if you shall confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and shall believe in your heart that God has raised him from the dead, you shall be saved. (i.e. born again) For with the heart man believes unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. Romans 10:9,10
Whosoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loves him that begat loves him also that is begotten of him. 1 John 5:1 . . . .
Good day my Brother!
heart - kardia - b. denotes the center of all physical and spiritual life; 1) the centre and seat of spiritual life; a. the soul or mind, as it is the fountain and seat of the thoughts, passions, desires, appetites, affections, purposes, endeavors b. of the understanding, the faculty and seat of the intelligence; c. of the will and character; d. of the soul so far as it is affected and stirred in a bad way or good, or of the soul as the seat of the sensibilities, affections, emotions, desires, appetites, passions . . . . So, by definition, I would have to disagree and stick with: They can hear the word of God, they can become fully persuaded, i.e. believe that what they have heard is truth and make a decision to turn from their evil ways and trust God for their salvation.
That if you shall confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and shall believe in your heart that God has raised him from the dead, you shall be saved. (i.e. born again) For with the heart man believes unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. Romans 10:9,10
Whosoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loves him that begat loves him also that is begotten of him. 1 John 5:1 . . . .
Good day my Brother!
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I really love the man made doctrines that rob God of His glory.
Does God save men against their will?
Does the Calvinist ever come under conviction about his sin?
Given what Calvinism teaches today even John Calvin would reject it.
The hardest people to win to Christ are the ones who are most religious.
Luke 18:9 ¶ And he spake this parable unto certain which trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others:
10 Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican.
11 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican.
12 I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess.
13 And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.
14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.
One was a Calvinist the other was a whosoever will.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
Does God save men against their will?
Does the Calvinist ever come under conviction about his sin?
Given what Calvinism teaches today even John Calvin would reject it.
The hardest people to win to Christ are the ones who are most religious.
Luke 18:9 ¶ And he spake this parable unto certain which trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others:
10 Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican.
11 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican.
12 I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess.
13 And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.
14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.
One was a Calvinist the other was a whosoever will.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
God does not desire to see any die eternally lost and u quote where it tells them to turn.
but u also make the same contradiction as valiant and say but God just hasnt willed the salvation of all mankind either. well then God needs to make up His mind. u guys always talk about sovereignity of God but the way u say it makes Him seem not sovereign at all. makes it look like God has multiple personality disorder.
God could just give them repentance and they would turn, why is God complaining to israel when He is the one who is predestined them to not turn?
this cannot be right teaching its false for sure. God is not the author of confusion.
im so happy i didnt order any books, would of been money wasted.
i learned another lesson here and thats if it seems complicated and contradictory and needs books longer than the bible to explain it, its probably false. this is a great lesson to all
but u also make the same contradiction as valiant and say but God just hasnt willed the salvation of all mankind either. well then God needs to make up His mind. u guys always talk about sovereignity of God but the way u say it makes Him seem not sovereign at all. makes it look like God has multiple personality disorder.
God could just give them repentance and they would turn, why is God complaining to israel when He is the one who is predestined them to not turn?
this cannot be right teaching its false for sure. God is not the author of confusion.
im so happy i didnt order any books, would of been money wasted.
i learned another lesson here and thats if it seems complicated and contradictory and needs books longer than the bible to explain it, its probably false. this is a great lesson to all
Hi Roger,
Could you tell us what Calvin would reject? And please name the source from Calvin so that we can check it out for ourselves. your premise is that Calvin would reject reformed teaching.. so start from the beginning.
Start with the doctrine of God, and then teach what Calvin would reject through all teachings.
Many thanks
Phil.
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Brother, to repent means to change your mind, change your direction. Man, in his fallen state, would never change his mind, his direction, seeing he hates God. Its not that man can not change, its that he will not change, because he will not change. The ones who truly love Him have been born of Him.[1 John 4:7]
Unless their hatred of God is changed, they will not change.
Unless their hatred of God is changed, they will not change.
I see what you are trying to say bro, but you are a bit confused on the whole thing and are conflating things. Your understanding of the things you are speaking of need to be studied out some more.
Your last statement above is short-sighted and unfortunate, and I sense your frustration. Books that attempt to make exhaustive commentary on the nature of God, Scripture &c are a blessing. These works show the depth of God's wisdom and ways and show how converted men plunge these depths. Keep in mind this depth of thought, exegesis, sound doctrine is not found frequently in churches and many are at a loss for this and much error exists.
These works are not without merit and worth, and many I could recommend to you that will further your understanding of the Godhead and bless your life. Remember Ephesians 4:11; 2 Timothy 4:13; John 21:25.
Your last statement above is short-sighted and unfortunate, and I sense your frustration. Books that attempt to make exhaustive commentary on the nature of God, Scripture &c are a blessing. These works show the depth of God's wisdom and ways and show how converted men plunge these depths. Keep in mind this depth of thought, exegesis, sound doctrine is not found frequently in churches and many are at a loss for this and much error exists.
These works are not without merit and worth, and many I could recommend to you that will further your understanding of the Godhead and bless your life. Remember Ephesians 4:11; 2 Timothy 4:13; John 21:25.
but u just quoted a verse that says God doesnt want any to perish and u said it urself... so therefore i would throw the universalist accusation back to u guys.
u said God doesnt desire anyone to be eternally lost and nothing can thwart God's will therefore everyone is saved.
this doesnt make any sense.
u said God doesnt desire anyone to be eternally lost and nothing can thwart God's will therefore everyone is saved.
this doesnt make any sense.