Calvinists: The Just Shall Live BEFORE Having Faith

[DevotiontoBible]

It is the work of God we believe, You have to resolve what that means, We do not earn salvation by faith, that is the calvanist argument, that we are trying. To earn salvation by doing an act of faith.

I don't get how Calvinists think that faith is earning something. If a homeless person takes a sandwich offered to him do we say he earned it? Faith is just trusting in what God has freely given.

 

[Depleted]

Thanks for confirming that my original post in this thread is correct.

Are you 10?

Because 10 year olds are too young to be on this forum, and yet, you sure sound 10.

That is a child's sentence!

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

But it doesn't say faith is the gift. You are adding that idea.

But you are insisting on a sentence construction that would confuse a person of any language.
And now, it gets even more confusing, because the portion of the sentence in question not only refers back to what was previously said instead of the latter part said, but now it excludes the part latterly said. Do you see?

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

I don't get how Calvinists think that faith is earning something. If a homeless person takes a sandwich offered to him do we say he earned it? Faith is just trusting in what God has freely given.

Faith is a good thing. There is no good thing in you. If there is something good in you and it helped you to be saved, it didn't come from you.

 

[Depleted]

What I know is that Calvinisms order of salvation has regeneration precede faith making Hab 2:4 read as, "the just shall live BEFORE faith."

Are you Catholic? Because they're the only ones against regeneration before faith, and they're the only ones who think justification isn't required.

Seriously, are you Catholic? Because you seem hell bent on teaching an order of salvation no Christian believes.

Here are the only forms of Order of Salvation. (And it's wiki, so don't think I'm trying to indoctrinate you into something.) Notice which one you fit into.

You're pushing the Catholic version.

 

[Depleted]

I do agree with you Jesus is the word...so yeah, sorry to all if I made it sound like just a bunch of words on paper...lol

I also agree that God is sovereign. He is God and there is none other and he does as he pleases. He is in control and he is the one that set this thing up like it is.

The scripture says, in Isaiah 46:9-10
9 Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me,
[SUP]10 [/SUP]Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:

The scripture also says, God wants all men to be saved (1 Timothy 2:4) and it is not his will that any should perish but that all will come to repentance (2 Peter 3:9).

Now we know that God could do that easily, so there has to be a reason that it won’t be done. That reason is because he gives us the choice to accept him or not. There in, comes the “IF” condition.

He gives us the choice. That is His plan and how he set it up. Who am I to question Him?

Now this is how I see it, and this is probably where we are going to disagree.


Just want to say I do like the discussion that is going on here, well what I've read so far...I'm a little busy today.

I should be busy.

And, I've come to accept we're never going to agree on whose choice. lol

 

[Depleted]

Thats what discipleship is for. Teaching them they need God in all parts.

Thats not salvation though, salvation is knowing your eternity is in danger.

Salvation is someone saving, not the person being saved. The person being saved doesn't even have to know his/her life is in danger to be saved. (More than once, I've been saved, only to figure out I was in danger after the fact. I is SLOW learner. lol)

 

[DevotiontoBible]

But you are insisting on a sentence construction that would confuse a person of any language.
And now, it gets even more confusing, because the portion of the sentence in question not only refers back to what was previously said instead of the latter part said, but now it excludes the part latterly said. Do you see?

I quoted a Bible translation which makes the Greek easier to understand. The gift references salvation not faith. Do you understand gender in Greek?

 

[Depleted]

Thats not the question though.

What is the context. Are we born again because we had faith, or do we have faith because we are born again.


Faith is not something that happens in a second, it must be worked on and learned. As we learn about ourselves and God.

New birth happens in an instant, And is the result of justification (our sins are forgiven, so we are no longer dead because of sin)

that is the point, and why so many people can not fathom the calvanist view.

Which order of salvation do you hold to? (Not trying to talk you out of it -- yet. Just trying to figure out which one you hold to. lol)

 

[DevotiontoBible]

Faith is a good thing. There is no good thing in you. If there is something good in you and it helped you to be saved, it didn't come from you.

No, faith isn't a good thing but God recons it to be a good thing. Do you get that?

 

[Depleted]

It is the work of God we believe, You have to resolve what that means, We do not earn salvation by faith, that is the calvanist argument, that we are trying. To earn salvation by doing an act of faith.

Ha! That's not the Calvinist argument either.

Oh come on! How often do we even agree on something? And yet I'm agreeing with you here. It is a work of God!

 

[Depleted]

We are dead spiritually, it does not mean we can do nothing, it just means we are separated from God (a dead body is separated from its soul, yet the soul still lives, in hades or in paradise)

Salvation is by faith, Faith comes by hearing, if a non believer can not be thought by the hs the truth of the gospel (conviction) then a non believer can never come to faith. And the HS going to convict the world of sin righteousness of judgment is pretty much a non factor is it not?

Faith is not doing, it is trusting, it comes from hearing because it comes by learning.

Trusting is doing. Faith is a synonym for trust.

And, if it comes from learning, are you suggesting people who are seriously mentally impaired cannot be saved because they cannot learn? (And, I don't think that's what you mean, but that is the outcome of what you said.)

 

[DevotiontoBible]

Which order of salvation do you hold to? (Not trying to talk you out of it -- yet. Just trying to figure out which one you hold to. lol)

Armenian/Wesleyan

 

[Depleted]

I don't get how Calvinists think that faith is earning something. If a homeless person takes a sandwich offered to him do we say he earned it? Faith is just trusting in what God has freely given.

Oh that ones easy to get. We don't believe that.

Can't get any easier than that.

 

[John146]

God knew they would repent. They did not surprise him by them repenting.

God sending them the message is the cause of their repenting. If he did not send them the word of destruction if they did not repent. They never would have repented. (They still had to make a choice however)

But they did not surprise God.

God wanted isreal to repent also. (Jesus said it was his will they repent and he gathers them as a mother, but they were not willing)

When God repents and changes His mind, He's not surprised. Why people use this terminology is beyond me. If God knew Nineveh would repent, then did He lie when He said, "Yet forty days and Nineveh shall be overthrown"? God either lied or changed His direction based upon Nineveh's response to His word. Nope, God was not surprised at all.

 

[DevotiontoBible]

Trusting is doing. Faith is a synonym for trust.

And, if it comes from learning, are you suggesting people who are seriously mentally impaired cannot be saved because they cannot learn? (And, I don't think that's what you mean, but that is the outcome of what you said.)

It is doing but it isn't a good work. Instead God imputes it as a good work, good enough for Salvation :

And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness. But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;
Romans 4:22*, ‬24 KJV
https://bible.com/bible/1/rom.4.22-24.KJV

 

[Ariel82]

Calvinism's order of salvation places the new birth BEFORE having faith in Christ. That logic turns Hab 2:4 on its head "the just shall live by his faith" into " the just shall live and they don't even have to believe in God first".

Not quite accurate.

When babies are born,do they understand how they were conceived?

In the same way,when people are born again..it happens before they understand what that means...reformed folks Mark the whole "born again" experience when someone's heart is changed which is by God's grace.

 

[Depleted]

Armenian/Wesleyan

And yet, all this time you've been trying to convince us just comes before regeneration and faith. Go figure. You don't even believe in the order of salvation you claim to believe in.

That's a problem. You don't even understand your own belief, so you can't communicate with anyone else about belief.

 

[Dino246]

I am correct. Prove that I am wrong. Even you admitted in another thread that God in His soverignty chooses to show mercy on whoever He wills not based on who has faith in Christ.

I have no horse in this race, but I will note that the approach demanded in this post is a burden-of-proof reversal. Nobody has any obligation to prove you wrong. Rather, it is on you to prove your assertion correct, or have it ignored.

 

[Depleted]

It is doing but it isn't a good work. Instead God imputes it as a good work, good enough for Salvation :

And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness. But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;
Romans 4:22*, ‬24 KJV
https://bible.com/bible/1/rom.4.22-24.KJV

Yeah, you're talking gibberish now. Since you've got no clue what you believe, you can't argue anything for or against for your belief or Calvinist's belief.

Sorry. When you get to the point of knowing what you're talking about, then maybe we can talk together.