Calvinists: The Just Shall Live BEFORE Having Faith

[John146]

Why not so?

Sodoma and Gomora were not repentant cities so they were destroyed. Nobody even warned them (to repent).

Niniveh was warned and repentant, so was not destroyed.

Nineveh was told not warned of their upcoming destruction. Nineveh believed God at His word that He was going to destroy them.

8 But let man and beast be covered with sackcloth, and cry mightily unto God: yea, let them turn every one from his evil way, and from the violence that is in their hands.
9 Who can tell if God will turn and repent, and turn away from his fierce anger, that we perish not?

Did you catch that? They didn't say, "God told us if we repented then He would not destroy us." They had no idea if God would change His mind. They just knew they had to give it a shot and maybe God would not destroy them.

 

[John146]

In john146's estimation it is OK for him to "remove words" from Scripture, by using the word of God in an underhanded way (claiming the word "us" isn't in the context, really sneaky denial of truth!!), while at the same time he falsely blasts the better versions we have for our use by claiming they do what he just did himself.

I said "us" is not the context. Obviously "us" is in the verse, but the context is the heavenly blessing found in Christ. You want to add, "as he has chosen us to be in him before the foundation of the world". That's adding to the word of God to fit the Roman Catholic doctrine of Calvin and Augustine.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I knew about the concept of God, that some people did believe He existed. I never did believe He existed. One day I read the gospel (because I watched a show on Nostradamus and thought Jesus might be the same, where people believed He could tell the future, but I wasn't sure about if He predicted the future or not). So I was looking for if He told the future.

I wasn't sure where to find The part of the book where Jesus came in so I started at the beginning but I saw the literary device of fairytale, even down to the poisoned piece of fruit and the prince and princess, although I thought it was a poorly written fairytale.

So then I skipped to the end. I recognized the literary device there right away too. It was science fiction, but once again, I thought it poorly written science fiction., but it piqued my interest as to why some of the words were in red ink. So I found more red ink and figured out that the red ink had led me to the part I wanted, to see if Jesus said anything about the future.

So I began reading where the red ink started. Sometime between Mathew and john, I suddenly saw that impossible as it seemed, it was the truth. I was very distraught. Not about sin. I still didn't even understand exactly what was sin and what wasn't. I was so distraught because I had ignored God all my life because I hadn't even believed He existed.so when I was on the floor shrieking and breaking into a million pieces, my only thought, over and over again was: I'm so sorry I didn't know I didn't know oh my god I'm so sorry.

So if you need me now to say it didn't happen in one moment that I could see, I can't. I saw in one moment when the moment before I hadn't seen.

I am confused, how can you say you had faith in the gospel if you did not even know a thing about sin? Knowing we are sinners is part of the gospel.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I did an excellent job of proving that the Greek verb is not saying that God causes or wills people to disobey Him.

No one has ever did, So not sure why you would even think this. or think this needs to be told.

 

[DevotiontoBible]

No one has ever did, So not sure why you would even think this. or think this needs to be told.

You have to go back to the origin of the discussion on the matter:

A Satanic God who wills that men disobey him is brilliant? Go figure.

Dude you may want to have a look at some of the other chapters in Romans before you continue calling God evil.

Here for example:

Romans 11:30-32

For just as you were at one time disobedient to God but now have received mercy because of their disobedience, so they too have now been disobedient in order that by the mercy shown to you they also may now receive mercy. For God has consigned all to disobedience, that he may have mercy on all.



God is brilliant. Man is vain.

 

[trofimus]

Nineveh was told not warned of their upcoming destruction. Nineveh believed God at His word that He was going to destroy them.

8 But let man and beast be covered with sackcloth, and cry mightily unto God: yea, let them turn every one from his evil way, and from the violence that is in their hands.
9 Who can tell if God will turn and repent, and turn away from his fierce anger, that we perish not?

Did you catch that? They didn't say, "God told us if we repented then He would not destroy us." They had no idea if God would change His mind. They just knew they had to give it a shot and maybe God would not destroy them.

They did not know, they gave it a shot and God did not destroy them.

You are being too technical when reading the KJV.

Telling about upcoming destruction is warning. Thats the meaning of telling about upcoming destruction - to warn.

 

[Depleted]

Actually I did answer, and he agreed with me.



I answered this also. Although I do nto think he agreed, nor do I expect you to.

God can not trust himself for me, I have to trust him myself. He gave me the faith because he gave me the tools to have faith, not because he gave me his faith,

Your actually walking into johns view that jesus faith was imputed to us (it sounds the same)

Again, The tax collector. While dead, was brought to repentance and God on his knees and called out for God to shew mercy to him a sinner.

The Pharisee, also dead, Praised his own works, and praised God he was nto like the tax collector. Showing he had faith also. Only nbot in God, but in his own works.

We all have faith, what counts is what that faith is in.

is it in the word, The savior. The HS, and the promises based not he cross.

or is it in self (unbelief)

he who believes is condemned, he who does not believe is condemned already.

Ha! You're right. I am agreeing with John. John the Beloved, not John145. lol

Yes, Jesus' faith is imputed on us. In this exchange, we give the Lord our sin. He took that on and died our death for us. And he gave us his righteousness, his goodness, his faith, his trust, his love, his goodness. He took on what is evil about us because he is what is good about us. Imputed. Good word!

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

I am confused, how can you say you had faith in the gospel if you did not even know a thing about sin? Knowing we are sinners is part of the gospel.

Gaah, my post got lost...

Have to answer that later. In condensed form, I did not need to understand it all. I knew what sin was without knowing I knew because sin is unbelief and that's exactly what I was so sorry for once He gave me my sight - that I had not believed He was. A man does not need systematic theology to be saved. He only needs to turn to God once he is given his sight. God teaches Him the rest as he is able to bear it.

 

[Depleted]

because this is what I see the Bible say

We are saved by grace THROUGH faith. Salvation is by grace, but it goes through faith. Faith does not come after salvation.

We are dead BECAUSE of sin, It makes no sense to say we are made alive BEFORE sin is forgiven, and since we are justified (declaired innocent, or freed from the penalty of sin) Because of faith. Faith must precede not only salvation, but regeneration



Why do you think me saying God, I can not save myself, I am deserving of eternal death, I am not worthy of your love, Please God, HAVE mercy on me a sinner. Is me having anything to do with my salvation, When I have just admitted, there is nothing I can do to earn my salvation.

Why must faith come before salvation?

what are we saved from? Ther penalty of sin, What is the term which means saved from the penalty of sin? Justified, What does th Bible say? We are justified freely by faith.



I have no dog, just a belief. What’s your dog? T



Again, Because the Bible says so.

Do you not care what the Bible says? I learned along time ago to stop blindly following myt leaders (I grew up in a baptist church) and start to do what God in his word demanded we all do. Test all spirits to see if they are from God or not If your pastor says something, go investigate it, DO not blindly think he got it right, he may have been wrong, and now your following him to his view which is wrong.

If a whole church does this, we have major problems, it is my view, this is the problem with denominations, a bunch of people who followed a truth of som man who started the denomination. Which was different than another denomination, ands thus we have many denominations.

Of course I care! We both care.

I see it differently than you, and strangely from the same verse you were paraphrasing from.

Eph. 2:[FONT=&quot]8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God,[/FONT][FONT=&quot] [/FONT][FONT=&quot]9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast.[/FONT]

(Tempted to copy-paste the whole paragraph, but thought I'd cut it down. If you want to see it in fuller form, please do! GREAT, glorious paragraphs!)

I simply get the "And this is not your own doing" part. It wasn't. If it was my doing, I would have thought it out. I know I didn't think it out, because I can't think things out when I'm asleep. I went to bed not believing. And woke up knowing!

Wow! Doesn't get any t-ain't-me-er than that.

 

[Depleted]

In my view the above is wrong, wrong, wrong.
One is born “saved”. You lose your “saved” status by your unjust works.
You can on the other hand be forgiven if you repent.

Don't take this personally, but I have been reading some of the posts you've put up on this site. So far, all I get from you is a gut reaction of

You have not made sense on anything that I've read from you yet -- this included.

On the positive side, I think you and Devo will get along great.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

You have to go back to the origin of the discussion on the matter:

Maybe it is just me, But I do not see where this says God WILLED men to do evil. I see it says God put all people under the care of disobedience, or assigned them to a state which was unfavorable to them, so that he may have mercy on all. (ie put them into a state which was favorable to them)

Using this to say Hitler had no choice but to kill all those people is stretching it amazingly.

 

[DevotiontoBible]

Don't take this personally, but I have been reading some of the posts you've put up on this site. So far, all I get from you is a gut reaction of

You have not made sense on anything that I've read from you yet -- this included.

On the positive side, I think you and Devo will get along great.

derrick is correct. Little babies are born saved. They go to heaven if they die. They don't die spiritually until the age of accountability when they actually commit a sin.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Ha! You're right. I am agreeing with John. John the Beloved, not John145. lol

Yes, Jesus' faith is imputed on us. In this exchange, we give the Lord our sin. He took that on and died our death for us. And he gave us his righteousness, his goodness, his faith, his trust, his love, his goodness. He took on what is evil about us because he is what is good about us. Imputed. Good word!

So you think John (145) is right, that it was the faith of Jesus, not his righteousness, which was imputed to us?

I never heard john (the apostle) state this. where did he say this if I may ask.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Gaah, my post got lost...

Have to answer that later. In condensed form, I did not need to understand it all. I knew what sin was without knowing I knew because sin is unbelief and that's exactly what I was so sorry for once He gave me my sight - that I had not believed He was. A man does not need systematic theology to be saved. He only needs to turn to God once he is given his sight. God teaches Him the rest as he is able to bear it.

So when did you ask God to forgive you of your sins, and give you eternal life? And why did you think you even needed to be forgiven?

I am confused (and maybe worried) because all I hear you say you went from unbelief in who Jesus was to belief, No one is saved based solely on this. Many people believe Jesus is who he says he is, yet have never met God.

 

[John146]

They did not know, they gave it a shot and God did not destroy them.

You are being too technical when reading the KJV.

Telling about upcoming destruction is warning. Thats the meaning of telling about upcoming destruction - to warn.

If they did not know, then there was no If statement. No if you repent then God will spare you. There was no such statement made to them but the clear warning of upcoming destruction.

 

[Depleted]

Your either alive or dead, there is no inbetween.

The penalty of sin is death, Until that penalty is removed, your dead.



Look up the word justified, It will help you understand how you were made alive (or set free from death) regeneration is a result of justification,

Agreed. We are either dead or alive. There is no in between. And yes, we were dead in sin. Dead, not somewhere in between. And the penalty for sin is separation from God, death and hell. We were separated from God. We were dead in sin. We were headed for hell the second this body died too.

We were all that. Totally, absolutely, 100% agreement.

BUT, Then Jesus.

-- Then Jesus came to earth as a human being, and lived his entire life sinless.

-- Then Jesus lived in the perfect will of the Father, showing us what that looks like, and giving full glory to his Father in the process.

-- Then Jesus took a punishment he did NOT deserve, as the Law showed us he could with the two sacrificial goats -- one bleeding on the altar for our sins and the other one laid hands on for our sin and then set loose. (Scapegoat.)

-- Then Jesus was separated for the one and only moment in "forever" from his Father. The full union of the Trinity was broken for one moment for our good and God's glory.

-- Then Jesus died the horrible death we all deserved.

-- Then he went to hell and released the ones his Father had given him.

-- Then, of all things, he rose again, to show the Father accepted his offer in our stead.

And always, always, always to show what John 3 is!

Then Jesus. He changed everything! We were dead in sin. He gave us new life, second birth, regeneration. He justified us! We did not give us that. He did!

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Why must faith come before salvation?

How can salvation come before faith? if we are justified BY faith, how can we be saved before we are justified (a legal term meaning we are saved from the penalty of the crime we are charged with, or declared innocent of those charges)

Of course I care! We both care.

I see it differently than you, and strangely from the same verse you were paraphrasing from.

Eph. 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God,9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast.

(Tempted to copy-paste the whole paragraph, but thought I'd cut it down. If you want to see it in fuller form, please do! GREAT, glorious paragraphs!)

I simply get the "And this is not your own doing" part. It wasn't. If it was my doing, I would have thought it out. I know I didn't think it out, because I can't think things out when I'm asleep. I went to bed not believing. And woke up knowing!

Wow! Doesn't get any t-ain't-me-er than that.

Again, Why do you think you trusting God is of your own doing? I do not get this line of thinking.

You can not boast in the fact you have placed your whole life and eternity in the hands of another person. because you have faith that person will get you to where you need to go.

The person gets all the credit, If the person failed to get you to the point you needed to go, then your faith failed you, You trusted in someone or something (even if this person you trusted in was yourself) which could not get you to where you needed to go (in this case, eternity with Christ)

 

[DevotiontoBible]

Maybe it is just me, But I do not see where this says God WILLED men to do evil. I see it says God put all people under the care of disobedience, or assigned them to a state which was unfavorable to them, so that he may have mercy on all. (ie put them into a state which was favorable to them)

Using this to say Hitler had no choice but to kill all those people is stretching it amazingly.

That is why the GW gets the Greek across better than other translations there. It isnt God causing people or willing them to be disobedient they cause themselves to be disobedient.

 

[John146]

So you think John (145) is right, that it was the faith of Jesus, not his righteousness, which was imputed to us?

I never heard john (the apostle) state this. where did he say this if I may ask.

God's righteousness is through the faith of Christ. This righteousness is imputed to the believer.

Romans 3
21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

 

[Depleted]

what??

If you can lose your saved status, you were never saved to begin with. You can not say your saved, but um, no your not saved, your only saved if you do these things or do not do those things, which um, well yeah, Your not saved yet, your working to be saved.

Ha! And you thought Devo was hard to understand.

Good luck with that one.

You and I believe roughly the same things. We just see it differently. Derrick is on Jupiter comparatively. Left field was miles ago.