Calvinists: The Just Shall Live BEFORE Having Faith

[BillG]

Pre-Cal are those who are pre-grasping biblical truths.

Just kidding my Brother.

What's a biblical truth

Sorry I can't think of anything funnier to say.
I was trying to think of something to add to the pre- but could not.

I'm not as funny as you.

I know you were kidding.

 

[SovereignGrace]

Was Jesus God manifest in the flesh?

Hebrews 5
7 Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared;
8 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;
9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

Wow! God learned something living in a human body as a man?Or is this Amphomorphismismismsim?

There is no record in the OT where we see God feared. Did God in heaven ever thirst? Hungered? Get sleepy? Wearied? Did God in heaven ever get mocked? Did God in heaven ever get slapped in the face by a man? NOPE!

God manifest in the flesh, Jesus, learned what it was like being a man living in a world He cursed because of sin. Yes, God learned. And because He learned, He can help us in our infirmities. Praise the Lord! What a Saviour! Great is the mystery of godliness!

Hypostatic union. Jesus was/is 100% man, 100% God. He had to grow as a human does, and learn. He emptied Himself, and became lower than the angels for a littld while...~ 33.5 years.

But in all of this, He was still God while a man on earth.

 

[DevotiontoBible]

John Calvin was a RCC priest who was taught extreme doctrines by another RCC priest named Jerome. Jerome made this stuff up not Calvin. It should be called Jeromeism. John Calvin ran a mini-papal state in Geneva Switzerland.

John Calvin quote: "The fall of Adam and Eve in all it's consequences was ordained by the admirable counsel of God."

What John Calvin is clearly saying is that God is the author of sin.

Too true. That's the logical conclusion from believing that God wills for people to disobey Him and sin.

 

[SovereignGrace]

Was Jesus God manifest in the flesh?

Hebrews 5
7 Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared;
8 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;
9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

Wow! God learned something living in a human body as a man?Or is this Amphomorphismismismsim?

There is no record in the OT where we see God feared. Did God in heaven ever thirst? Hungered? Get sleepy? Wearied? Did God in heaven ever get mocked? Did God in heaven ever get slapped in the face by a man? NOPE!

God manifest in the flesh, Jesus, learned what it was like being a man living in a world He cursed because of sin. Yes, God learned. And because He learned, He can help us in our infirmities. Praise the Lord! What a Saviour! Great is the mystery of godliness!

No record in the OT that God was feared? David wrote Psalms, and he showed fear all throughout them.

 

[SovereignGrace]

Too true. That's the logical conclusion from believing that God wills for people to disobey Him and sin.

Look up primary and secondary causes. God uses means to fulfill His decreed will.

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

Hi SG,

How are your feet doing?

Yes indeed it is faith that saves, nothing more or nothing less.

Having read what you have said a few thoughts have come into my head.

Firstly what struck me was faith being a fruit.

Galatians 5:22-23


22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness, self-control. Against such there is no law.

So I can't see faith but I can see faithfulness.

I know faith is a gift.

Ephesians 2:8
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,

So if we have faith then we manifest fruit.


I think the gift of faith is for all

John 3:16
16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.

But a person has to receive that gift by repenting of the sin on unbelief in Jesus.

That comes as a result of

Romans 10:17
17 So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

In my own mind I can't reconcile people in the OT who were saved were so as a result of having the Holy Spirit in them that caused them to repent of the sin of unbelief.

In my mind they were saved because God spoke, they heard and believed
So like in Romans 10 they heard God and believed.
There are not many in the OT that I can recall who had to repent of the sin of unbelief, in terms to receive salvation.
God spoke, they heard they did. Therefore saved by the gift of faith given by God.

Yet there are many who refused to walk by faith.

Maybe I have a blockage in that the Holy Spirit resides in a person after Jesus died and not before.

Does the above make sense?

If not can you please explain to me why.

Bill

This is well thought out.
I only don't understand how faith (belief) is given to all but only after they repent of unbelief. That doesn't make sense to me. To me its like saying...He gives belief to all men but they must believe first before they can be given the belief.

Their eyes have been blinded by satan and so they can't believe. Yet they must believe before they are given the gift of belief (faith)?

Its like saying (to my mind) that they must overcome Satan first...

 

[eternally-gratefull]

This is well thought out.
I only don't understand how faith (belief) is given to all but only after they repent of unbelief. That doesn't make sense to me. To me its like saying...He gives belief to all men but they must believe first before they can be given the belief.

Their eyes have been blinded by satan and so they can't believe. Yet they must believe before they are given the gift of belief (faith)?

Its like saying (to my mind) that they must overcome Satan first...

Romans1 says they blinded their own eyes. They hid the truth in their heart. Not sure where this blame of satan comes in.

 

[Nehemiah6]

This is well thought out.
I only don't understand how faith (belief) is given to all but only after they repent of unbelief. That doesn't make sense to me. To me its like saying...He gives belief to all men but they must believe first before they can be given the belief.

Their eyes have been blinded by satan and so they can't believe. Yet they must believe before they are given the gift of belief (faith)?

Its like saying (to my mind) that they must overcome Satan first...

And that is why we should simply believe the Word of God and reject the doctrines of men. Once again, here is how saving faith is generated in human hearts (Rom 10:17):

FAITH COMETH BY HEARING AND HEARING BY THE WORD OF GOD (ALSO CALLED THE GOSPEL).

But this is too simple for those who prefer a complicated and convoluted Gospel.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Are you kidding? People FLOCK to all kinds of festivals and festivities. Some to sell their wares and hotdogs, some because they're bored and want excitement, some to buy trinkets, etc.

I am not sure we should be making doctrines based on something that MAY be true. Would you attend a Muslim festival which was promoting their faith and religion? How about a pagan festivle which was prompting all of thier many Gods? Or another anti christian festival?

 

[BillG]

There is only one way of being saved, grace through faith. Now, those who don't have faith aren't saved. You said the OT saints believed God. They couldn't believe w/o having faith. And in regards to faithfulness(NIV uses that word), no one can have faithfulness and also be devoid of faith.

Read Romans 8:5-9. Those in the flesh(lost in proper context) are hostile towards God, can't please Him. That goes for both OT & NT ppl. Those who are in the Spirit(saved in proper context) love God.

Regeneration is being born again via the Spirit. No one is saved and not regenerated. Its not biblically possible.

Thanks for responding.

Just to clarify if it did not come across as it was meant to.
When the OT saints believed they had faith.

We see this in Hebrews 11.

So I am saying to believe in God is to the same as having faith in God.
Out of which will come regeneration.

Yes I agree, no one is saved without regeneration.

 

[SovereignGrace]

And that is why we should simply believe the Word of God and reject the doctrines of men. Once again, here is how saving faith is generated in human hearts (Rom 10:17):

FAITH COMETH BY HEARING AND HEARING BY THE WORD OF GOD (ALSO CALLED THE GOSPEL).

But this is too simple for those who prefer a complicated and convoluted Gospel.

It comes by hearing...i.e...an outside source. Faith is not innate, nor does it resonate from man.

 

[DevotiontoBible]

what a bizarre accusation??

i don't like versions that pass themselves off as scripture when they become less and less what the scripture actually says and more and more someone's interpretation or misinterpretation of scripture is. at a certain point it's much closer to reading a commentary than a Bible -- for example Hebrews 10:14 in 'the message' goes like this:

It was a perfect sacrifice by a perfect person to perfect some very imperfect people. By that single offering, he did everything that needed to be done for everyone who takes part in the purifying process.

what do you think, DevotiontoBible?
you like that? you prefer it to what Hebrews 10:14 actually says?

i must say, it's very bizarre indeed for a person who calls themselves 'devotion to Bible' to make statements supporting anti-devotion to faithful, literal translation of the Bible and preference for versions that stray wildly from genuine representation of the scripture. more like 'devotion to personal interpretation' !
does that not occur to you? do you find that as hypocritical and ironic as i do?

So, what do you think is wrong with that verse from the MSG?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

yes!
and especially if you are a new believer, or don't know that what you're reading isn't literally what the scriptures say, you won't even know that you may very well be being sorely misled by what you're reading! you'll be reading more or less someone's interpretation - which may or may not be accurate - and thinking it's literally scripture because hey, there it is printed in a book with the word 'Bible' on the cover, must be accurate, right??

IMO anyone actually devoted to Bible is double-minded if they hold paraphrasing versions in higher esteem than literal translations

amen, it is bad enough taking a literal translation still tainted by bias, but more accurate because they had to stick to origional words. Then an open ended interpretation which is bound by peoples beliefs and has no way of checking wherre they got the iinterpretation of a specific word (checks and balances)

 

[DevotiontoBible]

Look up primary and secondary causes. God uses means to fulfill His decreed will.

So, you think God decrees people to sin?

 

[SovereignGrace]

Thanks for responding.

Just to clarify if it did not come across as it was meant to.
When the OT saints believed they had faith.

We see this in Hebrews 11.

So I am saying to believe in God is to the same as having faith in God.
Out of which will come regeneration.

Yes I agree, no one is saved without regeneration.

The OP author is trying to divorce faith from regeneration. He has to to defend his position.

Faith and regeneration happen concurrently. You can't possess one w/o the other.

My feet are a little better. Thanks for asking.

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

Romans1 says they blinded their own eyes. They hid the truth in their heart. Not sure where this blame of satan comes in.

Men are born blind. They don't make themselves that way. And worse still, they don't KNOW they're blind.

 

[posthuman]

Yes, they are the same and same tense.

they both ((Romans 11:32 and Galatians 3:22)) say that everyone is bound up in disobedience and sin, and that God has done this. there is one word shared between them: sugkleió which means to completely enclose or shut up within. both verses proclaim that God Himself has 'completely enclosed' everyone in sin and disobedience.

God does not do things that are not according to God's will. He's not 'out of control'

they tell us that He has done this in order that His mercy may be displayed, and that His Christ may be glorified, that His promise may be through faith.

it is His will that no one should be able to boast and that His salvation should be through His own mercy, therefore all are bound up in disobedience and all are condemned by the Law -- according to His own will.

do you still think this makes Him "Satan" in your opinion?

we're back to Romans 9 again, everyone's favourite chapter. back to the part where Paul's systematic presentation of the gospel leads a listener to ask what seems to be an obvious question - "how then can God judge us, since no one can resist His will ?"

this is the part where you ask yourself why someone would be asking this question. why this question is the obvious question a person following Paul's argument will arrive at. why this question is entirely appropriate and natural if you're understanding what Paul is saying.

and you don't get an answer to this question, you get a rebuke. you get "who do you think you are to judge God and demand explanations of Him? He does as He wills!"

but hey, maybe you can find a poorly translated version that doesn't allow the truth to harsh your vibe so much, and devote yourself to it

 

[SovereignGrace]

So, you think God decrees people to sin?

Nope.......

Look up primary and secondary causes.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

It comes by hearing...i.e...an outside source. Faith is not innate, nor does it resonate from man.

Faith can resonate in man, Men have faith in other men all the time, even themselves. I think this is what gets people get confused when people say faith can only come from God.

Faith in God however, This can not resonate from man, because It is God who is able and willing to save us from our sins, he paid the ultimate price to do it. And has spent countless hours days, weeks and years showing us Gods word, and helping us to understand

 

[DevotiontoBible]

yes!
and especially if you are a new believer, or don't know that what you're reading isn't literally what the scriptures say, you won't even know that you may very well be being sorely misled by what you're reading! you'll be reading more or less someone's interpretation - which may or may not be accurate - and thinking it's literally scripture because hey, there it is printed in a book with the word 'Bible' on the cover, must be accurate, right??

IMO anyone actually devoted to Bible is double-minded if they hold paraphrasing versions in higher esteem than literal translations

I challenge you to give me a literal word -for -word accurate translation of the Spanish word "piñata" into an English equivalent. (Remember, no paraphrasing).