Joel Osteen book "Your Best Life Now"
- Thread starter joaniemarie
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You are missing a lot JGIG. Her posts about Job and sickness for one.
Her very own teaching and the teachings of others she posts say that your child , or you, did not have the faith to be healed. So what you have said I can agree with - what you said about both wealth and health. But she teaches something different. You have missed it. You have missed the why of the harshness she is treated with.
Nice to see you again, BTW.
Her very own teaching and the teachings of others she posts say that your child , or you, did not have the faith to be healed. So what you have said I can agree with - what you said about both wealth and health. But she teaches something different. You have missed it. You have missed the why of the harshness she is treated with.
Nice to see you again, BTW.
. Ah, but all is well with our child \o/! He is over a year and a half post-treatment and aside from the weird hair, some manageable long-term side effects from radiation and chemo, is a healthy, happy kid!
And I know Joanie well enough to know that she would not put the onus of his healing on our faith, but would always encourage us to have faith in our God Who does heal.
**Please understand that your post above was a jumping off point for what's written in this post, and is addressed to the readers of this thread as a whole, not directed to you specifically =) . . . **
Were there those (in our non-internet life) who came to us with the 'name it and claim it' message? Yes. And I reject that message. Our faith is in the One Who heals, not in how much I believe that a healing will take place.
My husband felt like he heard very clearly from God that "It's been taken care of" in the days following our son's diagnosis. His inclination was to believe that a followup MRI would reveal that God had miraculously healed our son. My impression was that, in an eternal perspective, no matter the outcome in this life, our son was safe in the Hands of our Good God.
When a followup MRI revealed that the cancer was still there (everywhere - it was devastating and we both just wept as the doctor educated us about the MRI images and the nature and prognosis of our son's disease), we went forward with treatment (God ultimately provided for his treatment at St. Jude Children's Research Hospital). Some would say that going ahead with conventional treatment showed a lack of faith in God's ability to heal our son. Indeed, some contacted us telling us so. Others urged alternative therapies (offered in love, but utterly without supported, scientific medical proof that any of them work).
Nevertheless, we had done our research, prayerfully considered what to do, and felt that the study at St. Jude (which was the third in a series of studies which had shown not just survival rates, but cure rates increasing from 20% to over 80% in many cases) that our son had been accepted into was the right course.
During treatment, there were many songs which spoke to me, but there are two in particular that were significant in forming how I viewed our journey. The first one is 'Voice of Truth' by Casting Crowns. The following excerpt from the lyrics was helpful to both me and my husband - I'll explain below . . .
. . .
Oh what I would do to have
The kind of strength it takes to stand before a giant
With just a sling and a stone
Surrounded by the sound of a thousand warriors
Shaking in their armor
Wishing they'd have had the strength to stand
But the giants are calling out my name and they laugh at me
Reminding me of all the times I've tried before and failed
The waves they keep on telling me
Time and time again
"Boy, you'll never win!
You'll never win"
. . .
But the stone was just the right size
To put the giant on the ground
And the waves they don't seem so high
From on top of them looking down
I will soar with the wings of eagles
When I stop and listen to the sound of Jesus
Singing over me
But the voice of truth tells me a different story
And the voice of truth says "Do not be afraid!"
And the voice of truth says "This is for My glory"
Out of all the voices calling out to me
I will choose to listen and believe the voice of truth
Oh what I would do to have
The kind of strength it takes to stand before a giant
With just a sling and a stone
Surrounded by the sound of a thousand warriors
Shaking in their armor
Wishing they'd have had the strength to stand
But the giants are calling out my name and they laugh at me
Reminding me of all the times I've tried before and failed
The waves they keep on telling me
Time and time again
"Boy, you'll never win!
You'll never win"
. . .
But the stone was just the right size
To put the giant on the ground
And the waves they don't seem so high
From on top of them looking down
I will soar with the wings of eagles
When I stop and listen to the sound of Jesus
Singing over me
But the voice of truth tells me a different story
And the voice of truth says "Do not be afraid!"
And the voice of truth says "This is for My glory"
Out of all the voices calling out to me
I will choose to listen and believe the voice of truth
When it came to the idea that accepting conventional treatment meant we didn't have enough faith (something my husband was struggling with), God showed me that wasn't the case at all.
- David's giant was a big guy; our giant was cancer in our son's brain and spine.
- David had faith that God could defeat the giant; we had faith that God could heal our son's cancer.
- Even though David knew that God could defeat the giant, he knew that he had to pick up his sling shot, and choose appropriate stones, load them, and use what was in his arsenal to defeat the giant. Likewise, even though we knew that God could heal our son, we put our faith in God's leading and put our son in the hands of those who had the appropriate 'sling shot and stones' - the arsenal - that would be used to defeat the cancer in our son's body. And there was a lot of peace in that! We knew that in an eternal perspective, our son would be fine - but for what would happen in this life - time would prove it out, and God would walk every step of the way with us.
David's faith in God did not preclude him from gathering what he needed, to do what needed to be done, trusting that God was in the midst of it all. And that's what we were asked to do, as well.
The second song that so ministered to me is 'Something Beautiful' by Steven Curtis Chapman.
I see you sitting over there with your head in your hands
And the mess life’s made of your best laid plans
You really want to shake your fist
But you don’t know who to blame
Well you can blame yourself or the man upstairs
Or the guy on the screen who says he cares
But all the shame and the blame won’t change a thing
What’s done is done
But grace has just begun
And the mess life’s made of your best laid plans
You really want to shake your fist
But you don’t know who to blame
Well you can blame yourself or the man upstairs
Or the guy on the screen who says he cares
But all the shame and the blame won’t change a thing
What’s done is done
But grace has just begun
And God’s says
I’m gonna turn it into something different
I’m gonna turn it into something good
I’m gonna take all the broken pieces
And make something beautiful like only I could
So put it all in the hands of the Father
Give it up, give it all over to
The only one who can turn it into
Something beautiful
Something really beautiful
I’m gonna turn it into something different
I’m gonna turn it into something good
I’m gonna take all the broken pieces
And make something beautiful like only I could
So put it all in the hands of the Father
Give it up, give it all over to
The only one who can turn it into
Something beautiful
Something really beautiful
We know the world got broke when it took the fall
And here we are living in the middle of it all
Longing, waiting for the day when everything’s restored
But the best of the beauty that we get to SEE
While we’re living down here in this “yet to be”
Is to watch God take the most broken things
And to hear Him say,
“When I get through, you’re gonna be amazed”
And here we are living in the middle of it all
Longing, waiting for the day when everything’s restored
But the best of the beauty that we get to SEE
While we’re living down here in this “yet to be”
Is to watch God take the most broken things
And to hear Him say,
“When I get through, you’re gonna be amazed”
‘Cause I’m gonna turn it into something different
I’m gonna turn it into something good
I’m gonna take all the broken pieces
And make something beautiful like only I could
So put it all in the hands of the Father
Give it up, give it all over to
The only one who can turn it into
I’m gonna turn it into something good
I’m gonna take all the broken pieces
And make something beautiful like only I could
So put it all in the hands of the Father
Give it up, give it all over to
The only one who can turn it into
Something beautiful
Something beautiful
Something beautiful
Put all the pieces in His hands
And watch Him turn it into something beautiful
Something beautiful
Something beautiful
Put all the pieces in His hands
And watch Him turn it into something beautiful
So many times I would have to purpose in my mind and heart to choose to trust God - trust that no matter the outcome, that there was value in the journey and that He was going to make something beautiful out of what we were in the middle of! Seeing beyond the circumstance; trusting (having faith) that God will redeem it somehow. And He has, and He continues to do so \o/!
Our son completed treatment in July of 2016 and has had quarterly scans since then (we actually recently returned from a trip to St. Jude) and all is well. There is scar tissue that they closely monitor, and we now will go for scans every six months instead of every three months. Each time we go, we trust that all is well, but have to wait for the tests to prove it out. There is a degree of stress that comes with these visits, and I wrote this during his one year post-treatment visit:
Processing through all of this as the week has gone by, I've realized how much like a sheep I really am and how good my Shepherd is. When doubts and fears creep in, He doesn't scold me for my faith not being big or strong enough, He reassures me that no matter what, He walks beside me. He reminds me that He is faithful and trustworthy, and that He loves me in the midst of whatever.
These quarterly visits to St. Jude Children's Hospital are so paradoxal - hard to have a reason to come back, joyful that we have a reason to come back, seeing and visiting with all of the amazing, wonderful people here who pour out their giftings and talents every day ministering to so many sweet children and their parents . . . and then walking out the necessary tests to see . . .
And so - hearing His gentle voice, I choose to trust my Good Shepherd. Our son's Good Shepherd. Our family's Good Shepherd. And we wait for the results of tests now run. And we trust, no matter what's what, because our Good Shepherd has promised to walk with us every step ♡ \○/ ♡.
Another mom that I got to know at St. Jude who's daughter was in treatment the same time as our son commented:
What you write is so very accurate. I really struggle with feeling like God is disappointed with me when I fear or have anxiety. The fact is sometimes it's completely uncontrollable and although it may be present I really try to pray through it and ask for His help and peace. Always praying for your son and your sweet family!
You're a sheep, too ♡! The image was so clear to me this morning - I was feeling a bit like you describe - like I *shouldn't* have fear or anxiety. And then God reminded me that sometimes sheep are fearful, sometimes they have anxiety because they can't see what's around the bend. But Christ is so gentle with His sheep - always there, building up, encouraging, leading while walking alongside, reassuring that no matter what's around the bend, He'll be there. So thankful for his grace and mercy \○/! He isn't disappointed in us, He just loves us!
I write all that to demonstrate this: I don't buy into the 'health and wealth, name it and claim it' theology. Some term it the health and wealth gospel - but it's not, it's a theology, or more accurately, an ideology built on AN interpretation of Scripture. But don't project the idea that those who ascribe to that ideology are heretics when it comes to THE Gospel - the Good News of the Work of Christ on our behalf, which when received bestows upon the believer the gifts of forgiveness, righteousness, and new life in Christ! When it comes to Joel Osteen and yes, Joseph Prince and others, they are absolutely believers in THE Gospel, and for folks here to condemn them (and anyone who dares to refer favorably to them) as heretics is not only error, but slander.
Do folks have the right to disagree with secondary, disputable matters? Of course! But to engage in the behavior and vitriol engaged in by some on this thread is simply wrong.
All Joanie was trying to do in the OP was to point folks to a guy who recognized that he may have had some misconceptions about Joel Osteen's book and needed to go to the source to sort out what HE thought about it instead of relying on what he had heard OTHERS say about Joel Osteen and his book. That's all. The example involved Joel Osteen, but the bigger picture she was trying to get some folks to see is that many of you look up online opinions written by others (who swim in the same theological streams you do) and rely on what they say so-and-so teaches to form your opinions instead of going to the source to form your opinion based on what so-and-so actually teaches!
You folks do understand that you don't have to agree with EVERYTHING someone believes and still be able to have unity with them, don't you?!
Or do you?
-JGIG
Thanks, Stunnedbygrace .
Ah, but all is well with our child \o/! He is over a year and a half post-treatment and aside from the weird hair, some manageable long-term side effects from radiation and chemo, is a healthy, happy kid!
And I know Joanie well enough to know that she would not put the onus of his healing on our faith, but would always encourage us to have faith in our God Who does heal.
**Please understand that your post above was a jumping off point for what's written in this post, and is addressed to the readers of this thread as a whole, not directed to you specifically =) . . . **
Were there those (in our non-internet life) who came to us with the 'name it and claim it' message? Yes. And I reject that message. Our faith is in the One Who heals, not in how much I believe that a healing will take place.
My husband felt like he heard very clearly from God that "It's been taken care of" in the days following our son's diagnosis. His inclination was to believe that a followup MRI would reveal that God had miraculously healed our son. My impression was that, in an eternal perspective, no matter the outcome in this life, our son was safe in the Hands of our Good God.
When a followup MRI revealed that the cancer was still there (everywhere - it was devastating and we both just wept as the doctor educated us about the MRI images and the nature and prognosis of our son's disease), we went forward with treatment (God ultimately provided for his treatment at St. Jude Children's Research Hospital). Some would say that going ahead with conventional treatment showed a lack of faith in God's ability to heal our son. Indeed, some contacted us telling us so. Others urged alternative therapies (offered in love, but utterly without supported, scientific medical proof that any of them work).
Nevertheless, we had done our research, prayerfully considered what to do, and felt that the study at St. Jude (which was the third in a series of studies which had shown not just survival rates, but cure rates increasing from 20% to over 80% in many cases) that our son had been accepted into was the right course.
During treatment, there were many songs which spoke to me, but there are two in particular that were significant in forming how I viewed our journey. The first one is 'Voice of Truth' by Casting Crowns. The following excerpt from the lyrics was helpful to both me and my husband - I'll explain below . . .
When it came to the idea that accepting conventional treatment meant we didn't have enough faith (something my husband was struggling with), God showed me that wasn't the case at all.
David's faith in God did not preclude him from gathering what he needed, to do what needed to be done, trusting that God was in the midst of it all. And that's what we were asked to do, as well.
The second song that so ministered to me is 'Something Beautiful' by Steven Curtis Chapman.
So many times I would have to purpose in my mind and heart to choose to trust God - trust that no matter the outcome, that there was value in the journey and that He was going to make something beautiful out of what we were in the middle of! Seeing beyond the circumstance; trusting (having faith) that God will redeem it somehow. And He has, and He continues to do so \o/!
Our son completed treatment in July of 2016 and has had quarterly scans since then (we actually recently returned from a trip to St. Jude) and all is well. There is scar tissue that they closely monitor, and we now will go for scans every six months instead of every three months. Each time we go, we trust that all is well, but have to wait for the tests to prove it out. There is a degree of stress that comes with these visits, and I wrote this during his one year post-treatment visit:
Processing through all of this as the week has gone by, I've realized how much like a sheep I really am and how good my Shepherd is. When doubts and fears creep in, He doesn't scold me for my faith not being big or strong enough, He reassures me that no matter what, He walks beside me. He reminds me that He is faithful and trustworthy, and that He loves me in the midst of whatever.
These quarterly visits to St. Jude Children's Hospital are so paradoxal - hard to have a reason to come back, joyful that we have a reason to come back, seeing and visiting with all of the amazing, wonderful people here who pour out their giftings and talents every day ministering to so many sweet children and their parents . . . and then walking out the necessary tests to see . . .
And so - hearing His gentle voice, I choose to trust my Good Shepherd. Our son's Good Shepherd. Our family's Good Shepherd. And we wait for the results of tests now run. And we trust, no matter what's what, because our Good Shepherd has promised to walk with us every step ♡ \○/ ♡.
Another mom that I got to know at St. Jude who's daughter was in treatment the same time as our son commented:
What you write is so very accurate. I really struggle with feeling like God is disappointed with me when I fear or have anxiety. The fact is sometimes it's completely uncontrollable and although it may be present I really try to pray through it and ask for His help and peace. Always praying for your son and your sweet family!
I replied:
I write all that to demonstrate this: I don't buy into the 'health and wealth, name it and claim it' theology. Some term it the health and wealth gospel - but it's not, it's a theology, or more accurately, an ideology built on AN interpretation of Scripture. But don't project the idea that those who ascribe to that ideology are heretics when it comes to THE Gospel - the Good News of the Work of Christ on our behalf, which when received bestows upon the believer the gifts of forgiveness, righteousness, and new life in Christ! When it comes to Joel Osteen and yes, Joseph Prince and others, they are absolutely believers in THE Gospel, and for folks here to condemn them (and anyone who dares to refer favorably to them) as heretics is not only error, but slander.
Do folks have the right to disagree with secondary, disputable matters? Of course! But to engage in the behavior and vitriol engaged in by some on this thread is simply wrong.
All Joanie was trying to do in the OP was to point folks to a guy who recognized that he may have had some misconceptions about Joel Osteen's book and needed to go to the source to sort out what HE thought about it instead of relying on what he had heard OTHERS say about Joel Osteen and his book. That's all. The example involved Joel Osteen, but the bigger picture she was trying to get some folks to see is that many of you look up online opinions written by others (who swim in the same theological streams you do) and rely on what they say so-and-so teaches to form your opinions instead of going to the source to form your opinion based on what so-and-so actually teaches!
You folks do understand that you don't have to agree with EVERYTHING someone believes and still be able to have unity with them, don't you?!
Or do you?
-JGIG
. Ah, but all is well with our child \o/! He is over a year and a half post-treatment and aside from the weird hair, some manageable long-term side effects from radiation and chemo, is a healthy, happy kid!
And I know Joanie well enough to know that she would not put the onus of his healing on our faith, but would always encourage us to have faith in our God Who does heal.
**Please understand that your post above was a jumping off point for what's written in this post, and is addressed to the readers of this thread as a whole, not directed to you specifically =) . . . **
Were there those (in our non-internet life) who came to us with the 'name it and claim it' message? Yes. And I reject that message. Our faith is in the One Who heals, not in how much I believe that a healing will take place.
My husband felt like he heard very clearly from God that "It's been taken care of" in the days following our son's diagnosis. His inclination was to believe that a followup MRI would reveal that God had miraculously healed our son. My impression was that, in an eternal perspective, no matter the outcome in this life, our son was safe in the Hands of our Good God.
When a followup MRI revealed that the cancer was still there (everywhere - it was devastating and we both just wept as the doctor educated us about the MRI images and the nature and prognosis of our son's disease), we went forward with treatment (God ultimately provided for his treatment at St. Jude Children's Research Hospital). Some would say that going ahead with conventional treatment showed a lack of faith in God's ability to heal our son. Indeed, some contacted us telling us so. Others urged alternative therapies (offered in love, but utterly without supported, scientific medical proof that any of them work).
Nevertheless, we had done our research, prayerfully considered what to do, and felt that the study at St. Jude (which was the third in a series of studies which had shown not just survival rates, but cure rates increasing from 20% to over 80% in many cases) that our son had been accepted into was the right course.
During treatment, there were many songs which spoke to me, but there are two in particular that were significant in forming how I viewed our journey. The first one is 'Voice of Truth' by Casting Crowns. The following excerpt from the lyrics was helpful to both me and my husband - I'll explain below . . .
. . .
Oh what I would do to have
The kind of strength it takes to stand before a giant
With just a sling and a stone
Surrounded by the sound of a thousand warriors
Shaking in their armor
Wishing they'd have had the strength to stand
But the giants are calling out my name and they laugh at me
Reminding me of all the times I've tried before and failed
The waves they keep on telling me
Time and time again
"Boy, you'll never win!
You'll never win"
. . .
But the stone was just the right size
To put the giant on the ground
And the waves they don't seem so high
From on top of them looking down
I will soar with the wings of eagles
When I stop and listen to the sound of Jesus
Singing over me
But the voice of truth tells me a different story
And the voice of truth says "Do not be afraid!"
And the voice of truth says "This is for My glory"
Out of all the voices calling out to me
I will choose to listen and believe the voice of truth
Oh what I would do to have
The kind of strength it takes to stand before a giant
With just a sling and a stone
Surrounded by the sound of a thousand warriors
Shaking in their armor
Wishing they'd have had the strength to stand
But the giants are calling out my name and they laugh at me
Reminding me of all the times I've tried before and failed
The waves they keep on telling me
Time and time again
"Boy, you'll never win!
You'll never win"
. . .
But the stone was just the right size
To put the giant on the ground
And the waves they don't seem so high
From on top of them looking down
I will soar with the wings of eagles
When I stop and listen to the sound of Jesus
Singing over me
But the voice of truth tells me a different story
And the voice of truth says "Do not be afraid!"
And the voice of truth says "This is for My glory"
Out of all the voices calling out to me
I will choose to listen and believe the voice of truth
When it came to the idea that accepting conventional treatment meant we didn't have enough faith (something my husband was struggling with), God showed me that wasn't the case at all.
- David's giant was a big guy; our giant was cancer in our son's brain and spine.
- David had faith that God could defeat the giant; we had faith that God could heal our son's cancer.
- Even though David knew that God could defeat the giant, he knew that he had to pick up his sling shot, and choose appropriate stones, load them, and use what was in his arsenal to defeat the giant. Likewise, even though we knew that God could heal our son, we put our faith in God's leading and put our son in the hands of those who had the appropriate 'sling shot and stones' - the arsenal - that would be used to defeat the cancer in our son's body. And there was a lot of peace in that! We knew that in an eternal perspective, our son would be fine - but for what would happen in this life - time would prove it out, and God would walk every step of the way with us.
David's faith in God did not preclude him from gathering what he needed, to do what needed to be done, trusting that God was in the midst of it all. And that's what we were asked to do, as well.
The second song that so ministered to me is 'Something Beautiful' by Steven Curtis Chapman.
I see you sitting over there with your head in your hands
And the mess life’s made of your best laid plans
You really want to shake your fist
But you don’t know who to blame
Well you can blame yourself or the man upstairs
Or the guy on the screen who says he cares
But all the shame and the blame won’t change a thing
What’s done is done
But grace has just begun
And the mess life’s made of your best laid plans
You really want to shake your fist
But you don’t know who to blame
Well you can blame yourself or the man upstairs
Or the guy on the screen who says he cares
But all the shame and the blame won’t change a thing
What’s done is done
But grace has just begun
And God’s says
I’m gonna turn it into something different
I’m gonna turn it into something good
I’m gonna take all the broken pieces
And make something beautiful like only I could
So put it all in the hands of the Father
Give it up, give it all over to
The only one who can turn it into
Something beautiful
Something really beautiful
I’m gonna turn it into something different
I’m gonna turn it into something good
I’m gonna take all the broken pieces
And make something beautiful like only I could
So put it all in the hands of the Father
Give it up, give it all over to
The only one who can turn it into
Something beautiful
Something really beautiful
We know the world got broke when it took the fall
And here we are living in the middle of it all
Longing, waiting for the day when everything’s restored
But the best of the beauty that we get to SEE
While we’re living down here in this “yet to be”
Is to watch God take the most broken things
And to hear Him say,
“When I get through, you’re gonna be amazed”
And here we are living in the middle of it all
Longing, waiting for the day when everything’s restored
But the best of the beauty that we get to SEE
While we’re living down here in this “yet to be”
Is to watch God take the most broken things
And to hear Him say,
“When I get through, you’re gonna be amazed”
‘Cause I’m gonna turn it into something different
I’m gonna turn it into something good
I’m gonna take all the broken pieces
And make something beautiful like only I could
So put it all in the hands of the Father
Give it up, give it all over to
The only one who can turn it into
I’m gonna turn it into something good
I’m gonna take all the broken pieces
And make something beautiful like only I could
So put it all in the hands of the Father
Give it up, give it all over to
The only one who can turn it into
Something beautiful
Something beautiful
Something beautiful
Put all the pieces in His hands
And watch Him turn it into something beautiful
Something beautiful
Something beautiful
Put all the pieces in His hands
And watch Him turn it into something beautiful
So many times I would have to purpose in my mind and heart to choose to trust God - trust that no matter the outcome, that there was value in the journey and that He was going to make something beautiful out of what we were in the middle of! Seeing beyond the circumstance; trusting (having faith) that God will redeem it somehow. And He has, and He continues to do so \o/!
Our son completed treatment in July of 2016 and has had quarterly scans since then (we actually recently returned from a trip to St. Jude) and all is well. There is scar tissue that they closely monitor, and we now will go for scans every six months instead of every three months. Each time we go, we trust that all is well, but have to wait for the tests to prove it out. There is a degree of stress that comes with these visits, and I wrote this during his one year post-treatment visit:
Processing through all of this as the week has gone by, I've realized how much like a sheep I really am and how good my Shepherd is. When doubts and fears creep in, He doesn't scold me for my faith not being big or strong enough, He reassures me that no matter what, He walks beside me. He reminds me that He is faithful and trustworthy, and that He loves me in the midst of whatever.
These quarterly visits to St. Jude Children's Hospital are so paradoxal - hard to have a reason to come back, joyful that we have a reason to come back, seeing and visiting with all of the amazing, wonderful people here who pour out their giftings and talents every day ministering to so many sweet children and their parents . . . and then walking out the necessary tests to see . . .
And so - hearing His gentle voice, I choose to trust my Good Shepherd. Our son's Good Shepherd. Our family's Good Shepherd. And we wait for the results of tests now run. And we trust, no matter what's what, because our Good Shepherd has promised to walk with us every step ♡ \○/ ♡.
Another mom that I got to know at St. Jude who's daughter was in treatment the same time as our son commented:
What you write is so very accurate. I really struggle with feeling like God is disappointed with me when I fear or have anxiety. The fact is sometimes it's completely uncontrollable and although it may be present I really try to pray through it and ask for His help and peace. Always praying for your son and your sweet family!
You're a sheep, too ♡! The image was so clear to me this morning - I was feeling a bit like you describe - like I *shouldn't* have fear or anxiety. And then God reminded me that sometimes sheep are fearful, sometimes they have anxiety because they can't see what's around the bend. But Christ is so gentle with His sheep - always there, building up, encouraging, leading while walking alongside, reassuring that no matter what's around the bend, He'll be there. So thankful for his grace and mercy \○/! He isn't disappointed in us, He just loves us!
I write all that to demonstrate this: I don't buy into the 'health and wealth, name it and claim it' theology. Some term it the health and wealth gospel - but it's not, it's a theology, or more accurately, an ideology built on AN interpretation of Scripture. But don't project the idea that those who ascribe to that ideology are heretics when it comes to THE Gospel - the Good News of the Work of Christ on our behalf, which when received bestows upon the believer the gifts of forgiveness, righteousness, and new life in Christ! When it comes to Joel Osteen and yes, Joseph Prince and others, they are absolutely believers in THE Gospel, and for folks here to condemn them (and anyone who dares to refer favorably to them) as heretics is not only error, but slander.
Do folks have the right to disagree with secondary, disputable matters? Of course! But to engage in the behavior and vitriol engaged in by some on this thread is simply wrong.
All Joanie was trying to do in the OP was to point folks to a guy who recognized that he may have had some misconceptions about Joel Osteen's book and needed to go to the source to sort out what HE thought about it instead of relying on what he had heard OTHERS say about Joel Osteen and his book. That's all. The example involved Joel Osteen, but the bigger picture she was trying to get some folks to see is that many of you look up online opinions written by others (who swim in the same theological streams you do) and rely on what they say so-and-so teaches to form your opinions instead of going to the source to form your opinion based on what so-and-so actually teaches!
You folks do understand that you don't have to agree with EVERYTHING someone believes and still be able to have unity with them, don't you?!
Or do you?
-JGIG
Sorry very happy your son is doing well! Praise God!
Your post exemplifies, albeit in a loving, heartfelt, personal way, what most people have been saying about the MANY threads dealing with the health and wealth doctrine. But I do agree with you that promoting that doctrine does NOT necessarily mean someone isn't saved.
Be Blessed!
E
Thanks, Stunnedbygrace .
Ah, but all is well with our child \o/! He is over a year and a half post-treatment and aside from the weird hair, some manageable long-term side effects from radiation and chemo, is a healthy, happy kid!
And I know Joanie well enough to know that she would not put the onus of his healing on our faith, but would always encourage us to have faith in our God Who does heal.
**Please understand that your post above was a jumping off point for what's written in this post, and is addressed to the readers of this thread as a whole, not directed to you specifically =) . . . **
Were there those (in our non-internet life) who came to us with the 'name it and claim it' message? Yes. And I reject that message. Our faith is in the One Who heals, not in how much I believe that a healing will take place.
My husband felt like he heard very clearly from God that "It's been taken care of" in the days following our son's diagnosis. His inclination was to believe that a followup MRI would reveal that God had miraculously healed our son. My impression was that, in an eternal perspective, no matter the outcome in this life, our son was safe in the Hands of our Good God.
When a followup MRI revealed that the cancer was still there (everywhere - it was devastating and we both just wept as the doctor educated us about the MRI images and the nature and prognosis of our son's disease), we went forward with treatment (God ultimately provided for his treatment at St. Jude Children's Research Hospital). Some would say that going ahead with conventional treatment showed a lack of faith in God's ability to heal our son. Indeed, some contacted us telling us so. Others urged alternative therapies (offered in love, but utterly without supported, scientific medical proof that any of them work).
Nevertheless, we had done our research, prayerfully considered what to do, and felt that the study at St. Jude (which was the third in a series of studies which had shown not just survival rates, but cure rates increasing from 20% to over 80% in many cases) that our son had been accepted into was the right course.
During treatment, there were many songs which spoke to me, but there are two in particular that were significant in forming how I viewed our journey. The first one is 'Voice of Truth' by Casting Crowns. The following excerpt from the lyrics was helpful to both me and my husband - I'll explain below . . .
When it came to the idea that accepting conventional treatment meant we didn't have enough faith (something my husband was struggling with), God showed me that wasn't the case at all.
David's faith in God did not preclude him from gathering what he needed, to do what needed to be done, trusting that God was in the midst of it all. And that's what we were asked to do, as well.
The second song that so ministered to me is 'Something Beautiful' by Steven Curtis Chapman.
So many times I would have to purpose in my mind and heart to choose to trust God - trust that no matter the outcome, that there was value in the journey and that He was going to make something beautiful out of what we were in the middle of! Seeing beyond the circumstance; trusting (having faith) that God will redeem it somehow. And He has, and He continues to do so \o/!
Our son completed treatment in July of 2016 and has had quarterly scans since then (we actually recently returned from a trip to St. Jude) and all is well. There is scar tissue that they closely monitor, and we now will go for scans every six months instead of every three months. Each time we go, we trust that all is well, but have to wait for the tests to prove it out. There is a degree of stress that comes with these visits, and I wrote this during his one year post-treatment visit:
Processing through all of this as the week has gone by, I've realized how much like a sheep I really am and how good my Shepherd is. When doubts and fears creep in, He doesn't scold me for my faith not being big or strong enough, He reassures me that no matter what, He walks beside me. He reminds me that He is faithful and trustworthy, and that He loves me in the midst of whatever.
These quarterly visits to St. Jude Children's Hospital are so paradoxal - hard to have a reason to come back, joyful that we have a reason to come back, seeing and visiting with all of the amazing, wonderful people here who pour out their giftings and talents every day ministering to so many sweet children and their parents . . . and then walking out the necessary tests to see . . .
And so - hearing His gentle voice, I choose to trust my Good Shepherd. Our son's Good Shepherd. Our family's Good Shepherd. And we wait for the results of tests now run. And we trust, no matter what's what, because our Good Shepherd has promised to walk with us every step ♡ \○/ ♡.
Another mom that I got to know at St. Jude who's daughter was in treatment the same time as our son commented:
What you write is so very accurate. I really struggle with feeling like God is disappointed with me when I fear or have anxiety. The fact is sometimes it's completely uncontrollable and although it may be present I really try to pray through it and ask for His help and peace. Always praying for your son and your sweet family!
I replied:
I write all that to demonstrate this: I don't buy into the 'health and wealth, name it and claim it' theology. Some term it the health and wealth gospel - but it's not, it's a theology, or more accurately, an ideology built on AN interpretation of Scripture. But don't project the idea that those who ascribe to that ideology are heretics when it comes to THE Gospel - the Good News of the Work of Christ on our behalf, which when received bestows upon the believer the gifts of forgiveness, righteousness, and new life in Christ! When it comes to Joel Osteen and yes, Joseph Prince and others, they are absolutely believers in THE Gospel, and for folks here to condemn them (and anyone who dares to refer favorably to them) as heretics is not only error, but slander.
Do folks have the right to disagree with secondary, disputable matters? Of course! But to engage in the behavior and vitriol engaged in by some on this thread is simply wrong.
All Joanie was trying to do in the OP was to point folks to a guy who recognized that he may have had some misconceptions about Joel Osteen's book and needed to go to the source to sort out what HE thought about it instead of relying on what he had heard OTHERS say about Joel Osteen and his book. That's all. The example involved Joel Osteen, but the bigger picture she was trying to get some folks to see is that many of you look up online opinions written by others (who swim in the same theological streams you do) and rely on what they say so-and-so teaches to form your opinions instead of going to the source to form your opinion based on what so-and-so actually teaches!
You folks do understand that you don't have to agree with EVERYTHING someone believes and still be able to have unity with them, don't you?!
Or do you?
-JGIG
. Ah, but all is well with our child \o/! He is over a year and a half post-treatment and aside from the weird hair, some manageable long-term side effects from radiation and chemo, is a healthy, happy kid!
And I know Joanie well enough to know that she would not put the onus of his healing on our faith, but would always encourage us to have faith in our God Who does heal.
**Please understand that your post above was a jumping off point for what's written in this post, and is addressed to the readers of this thread as a whole, not directed to you specifically =) . . . **
Were there those (in our non-internet life) who came to us with the 'name it and claim it' message? Yes. And I reject that message. Our faith is in the One Who heals, not in how much I believe that a healing will take place.
My husband felt like he heard very clearly from God that "It's been taken care of" in the days following our son's diagnosis. His inclination was to believe that a followup MRI would reveal that God had miraculously healed our son. My impression was that, in an eternal perspective, no matter the outcome in this life, our son was safe in the Hands of our Good God.
When a followup MRI revealed that the cancer was still there (everywhere - it was devastating and we both just wept as the doctor educated us about the MRI images and the nature and prognosis of our son's disease), we went forward with treatment (God ultimately provided for his treatment at St. Jude Children's Research Hospital). Some would say that going ahead with conventional treatment showed a lack of faith in God's ability to heal our son. Indeed, some contacted us telling us so. Others urged alternative therapies (offered in love, but utterly without supported, scientific medical proof that any of them work).
Nevertheless, we had done our research, prayerfully considered what to do, and felt that the study at St. Jude (which was the third in a series of studies which had shown not just survival rates, but cure rates increasing from 20% to over 80% in many cases) that our son had been accepted into was the right course.
During treatment, there were many songs which spoke to me, but there are two in particular that were significant in forming how I viewed our journey. The first one is 'Voice of Truth' by Casting Crowns. The following excerpt from the lyrics was helpful to both me and my husband - I'll explain below . . .
. . .
Oh what I would do to have
The kind of strength it takes to stand before a giant
With just a sling and a stone
Surrounded by the sound of a thousand warriors
Shaking in their armor
Wishing they'd have had the strength to stand
But the giants are calling out my name and they laugh at me
Reminding me of all the times I've tried before and failed
The waves they keep on telling me
Time and time again
"Boy, you'll never win!
You'll never win"
. . .
But the stone was just the right size
To put the giant on the ground
And the waves they don't seem so high
From on top of them looking down
I will soar with the wings of eagles
When I stop and listen to the sound of Jesus
Singing over me
But the voice of truth tells me a different story
And the voice of truth says "Do not be afraid!"
And the voice of truth says "This is for My glory"
Out of all the voices calling out to me
I will choose to listen and believe the voice of truth
Oh what I would do to have
The kind of strength it takes to stand before a giant
With just a sling and a stone
Surrounded by the sound of a thousand warriors
Shaking in their armor
Wishing they'd have had the strength to stand
But the giants are calling out my name and they laugh at me
Reminding me of all the times I've tried before and failed
The waves they keep on telling me
Time and time again
"Boy, you'll never win!
You'll never win"
. . .
But the stone was just the right size
To put the giant on the ground
And the waves they don't seem so high
From on top of them looking down
I will soar with the wings of eagles
When I stop and listen to the sound of Jesus
Singing over me
But the voice of truth tells me a different story
And the voice of truth says "Do not be afraid!"
And the voice of truth says "This is for My glory"
Out of all the voices calling out to me
I will choose to listen and believe the voice of truth
When it came to the idea that accepting conventional treatment meant we didn't have enough faith (something my husband was struggling with), God showed me that wasn't the case at all.
- David's giant was a big guy; our giant was cancer in our son's brain and spine.
- David had faith that God could defeat the giant; we had faith that God could heal our son's cancer.
- Even though David knew that God could defeat the giant, he knew that he had to pick up his sling shot, and choose appropriate stones, load them, and use what was in his arsenal to defeat the giant. Likewise, even though we knew that God could heal our son, we put our faith in God's leading and put our son in the hands of those who had the appropriate 'sling shot and stones' - the arsenal - that would be used to defeat the cancer in our son's body. And there was a lot of peace in that! We knew that in an eternal perspective, our son would be fine - but for what would happen in this life - time would prove it out, and God would walk every step of the way with us.
David's faith in God did not preclude him from gathering what he needed, to do what needed to be done, trusting that God was in the midst of it all. And that's what we were asked to do, as well.
The second song that so ministered to me is 'Something Beautiful' by Steven Curtis Chapman.
I see you sitting over there with your head in your hands
And the mess life’s made of your best laid plans
You really want to shake your fist
But you don’t know who to blame
Well you can blame yourself or the man upstairs
Or the guy on the screen who says he cares
But all the shame and the blame won’t change a thing
What’s done is done
But grace has just begun
And the mess life’s made of your best laid plans
You really want to shake your fist
But you don’t know who to blame
Well you can blame yourself or the man upstairs
Or the guy on the screen who says he cares
But all the shame and the blame won’t change a thing
What’s done is done
But grace has just begun
And God’s says
I’m gonna turn it into something different
I’m gonna turn it into something good
I’m gonna take all the broken pieces
And make something beautiful like only I could
So put it all in the hands of the Father
Give it up, give it all over to
The only one who can turn it into
Something beautiful
Something really beautiful
I’m gonna turn it into something different
I’m gonna turn it into something good
I’m gonna take all the broken pieces
And make something beautiful like only I could
So put it all in the hands of the Father
Give it up, give it all over to
The only one who can turn it into
Something beautiful
Something really beautiful
We know the world got broke when it took the fall
And here we are living in the middle of it all
Longing, waiting for the day when everything’s restored
But the best of the beauty that we get to SEE
While we’re living down here in this “yet to be”
Is to watch God take the most broken things
And to hear Him say,
“When I get through, you’re gonna be amazed”
And here we are living in the middle of it all
Longing, waiting for the day when everything’s restored
But the best of the beauty that we get to SEE
While we’re living down here in this “yet to be”
Is to watch God take the most broken things
And to hear Him say,
“When I get through, you’re gonna be amazed”
‘Cause I’m gonna turn it into something different
I’m gonna turn it into something good
I’m gonna take all the broken pieces
And make something beautiful like only I could
So put it all in the hands of the Father
Give it up, give it all over to
The only one who can turn it into
I’m gonna turn it into something good
I’m gonna take all the broken pieces
And make something beautiful like only I could
So put it all in the hands of the Father
Give it up, give it all over to
The only one who can turn it into
Something beautiful
Something beautiful
Something beautiful
Put all the pieces in His hands
And watch Him turn it into something beautiful
Something beautiful
Something beautiful
Put all the pieces in His hands
And watch Him turn it into something beautiful
So many times I would have to purpose in my mind and heart to choose to trust God - trust that no matter the outcome, that there was value in the journey and that He was going to make something beautiful out of what we were in the middle of! Seeing beyond the circumstance; trusting (having faith) that God will redeem it somehow. And He has, and He continues to do so \o/!
Our son completed treatment in July of 2016 and has had quarterly scans since then (we actually recently returned from a trip to St. Jude) and all is well. There is scar tissue that they closely monitor, and we now will go for scans every six months instead of every three months. Each time we go, we trust that all is well, but have to wait for the tests to prove it out. There is a degree of stress that comes with these visits, and I wrote this during his one year post-treatment visit:
Processing through all of this as the week has gone by, I've realized how much like a sheep I really am and how good my Shepherd is. When doubts and fears creep in, He doesn't scold me for my faith not being big or strong enough, He reassures me that no matter what, He walks beside me. He reminds me that He is faithful and trustworthy, and that He loves me in the midst of whatever.
These quarterly visits to St. Jude Children's Hospital are so paradoxal - hard to have a reason to come back, joyful that we have a reason to come back, seeing and visiting with all of the amazing, wonderful people here who pour out their giftings and talents every day ministering to so many sweet children and their parents . . . and then walking out the necessary tests to see . . .
And so - hearing His gentle voice, I choose to trust my Good Shepherd. Our son's Good Shepherd. Our family's Good Shepherd. And we wait for the results of tests now run. And we trust, no matter what's what, because our Good Shepherd has promised to walk with us every step ♡ \○/ ♡.
Another mom that I got to know at St. Jude who's daughter was in treatment the same time as our son commented:
What you write is so very accurate. I really struggle with feeling like God is disappointed with me when I fear or have anxiety. The fact is sometimes it's completely uncontrollable and although it may be present I really try to pray through it and ask for His help and peace. Always praying for your son and your sweet family!
You're a sheep, too ♡! The image was so clear to me this morning - I was feeling a bit like you describe - like I *shouldn't* have fear or anxiety. And then God reminded me that sometimes sheep are fearful, sometimes they have anxiety because they can't see what's around the bend. But Christ is so gentle with His sheep - always there, building up, encouraging, leading while walking alongside, reassuring that no matter what's around the bend, He'll be there. So thankful for his grace and mercy \○/! He isn't disappointed in us, He just loves us!
I write all that to demonstrate this: I don't buy into the 'health and wealth, name it and claim it' theology. Some term it the health and wealth gospel - but it's not, it's a theology, or more accurately, an ideology built on AN interpretation of Scripture. But don't project the idea that those who ascribe to that ideology are heretics when it comes to THE Gospel - the Good News of the Work of Christ on our behalf, which when received bestows upon the believer the gifts of forgiveness, righteousness, and new life in Christ! When it comes to Joel Osteen and yes, Joseph Prince and others, they are absolutely believers in THE Gospel, and for folks here to condemn them (and anyone who dares to refer favorably to them) as heretics is not only error, but slander.
Do folks have the right to disagree with secondary, disputable matters? Of course! But to engage in the behavior and vitriol engaged in by some on this thread is simply wrong.
All Joanie was trying to do in the OP was to point folks to a guy who recognized that he may have had some misconceptions about Joel Osteen's book and needed to go to the source to sort out what HE thought about it instead of relying on what he had heard OTHERS say about Joel Osteen and his book. That's all. The example involved Joel Osteen, but the bigger picture she was trying to get some folks to see is that many of you look up online opinions written by others (who swim in the same theological streams you do) and rely on what they say so-and-so teaches to form your opinions instead of going to the source to form your opinion based on what so-and-so actually teaches!
You folks do understand that you don't have to agree with EVERYTHING someone believes and still be able to have unity with them, don't you?!
Or do you?
-JGIG
Ok I watched the vid .
Here is my take . The review is more of a defense of touchy-feely theology than a review of the book .
The reviewer starts out with a story that pulls on your emotions about Joel Osteen’s life and history of his
Congregation. He uses that story to get the viewer invested in the theology of Joel. Much in the way of a sales pitch
not of Joel’s book but his and Joel’s shared beliefs . He dose share his opinions here and there about the book but most often he is defending their shared theology. He dismisses criticism as uncaring or the like without actually tackling the criticism. Again he uses emotion instead of reason to do this .
Also as a personal note . What’s is the hang up over what we can get now . Your best life now ? This time we live here on earth is so small in comparison to eternity. A single molecule of water in all the world’s oceans would tower over it by comparison. Then there is expecting something more from God after He came and gave his life for us . Come on please ! That smacks of a selfish spoiled brat crying at Disneyland. We should be looking at what else can I do you You Lord ?
Blessings
Bill
Here is my take . The review is more of a defense of touchy-feely theology than a review of the book .
The reviewer starts out with a story that pulls on your emotions about Joel Osteen’s life and history of his
Congregation. He uses that story to get the viewer invested in the theology of Joel. Much in the way of a sales pitch
not of Joel’s book but his and Joel’s shared beliefs . He dose share his opinions here and there about the book but most often he is defending their shared theology. He dismisses criticism as uncaring or the like without actually tackling the criticism. Again he uses emotion instead of reason to do this .
Also as a personal note . What’s is the hang up over what we can get now . Your best life now ? This time we live here on earth is so small in comparison to eternity. A single molecule of water in all the world’s oceans would tower over it by comparison. Then there is expecting something more from God after He came and gave his life for us . Come on please ! That smacks of a selfish spoiled brat crying at Disneyland. We should be looking at what else can I do you You Lord ?
Blessings
Bill
And we can add this to that thought: As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent. (Rev 3:19).
When Osteen (or any other false teachers) first started on his path of disinformation and misinformation (false teaching) someone should have taken them aside and rebuked them severely. That would have been true love, provided they had repented. The problem is that false teachers, false prophets, and false apostles rarely -- if ever -- repent.
When Osteen (or any other false teachers) first started on his path of disinformation and misinformation (false teaching) someone should have taken them aside and rebuked them severely. That would have been true love, provided they had repented. The problem is that false teachers, false prophets, and false apostles rarely -- if ever -- repent.
Thats a funny thing to say because im sure many Christians probably said the same thing about Saul after he was the one who approved the stoning of stephen and
persecuted men and women just because they were believers in christ. yet we all know that saul is paul the author of the writings we hold so close to our heart
persecuted men and women just because they were believers in christ. yet we all know that saul is paul the author of the writings we hold so close to our heart
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Yes, I agree it is about God healing ALL sickness for everybody. That is the matter. He doesn't always heal everyone. So the issue has become over if He will physically heal all who have trust/ faith, all the time, 100 percent. And the main point of contention is over that and over others being told they aren't healed because of not enough faith.
Thanks, Stunnedbygrace .
Ah, but all is well with our child \o/! He is over a year and a half post-treatment and aside from the weird hair, some manageable long-term side effects from radiation and chemo, is a healthy, happy kid!
And I know Joanie well enough to know that she would not put the onus of his healing on our faith, but would always encourage us to have faith in our God Who does heal.
**Please understand that your post above was a jumping off point for what's written in this post, and is addressed to the readers of this thread as a whole, not directed to you specifically =) . . . **
Were there those (in our non-internet life) who came to us with the 'name it and claim it' message? Yes. And I reject that message. Our faith is in the One Who heals, not in how much I believe that a healing will take place.
My husband felt like he heard very clearly from God that "It's been taken care of" in the days following our son's diagnosis. His inclination was to believe that a followup MRI would reveal that God had miraculously healed our son. My impression was that, in an eternal perspective, no matter the outcome in this life, our son was safe in the Hands of our Good God.
When a followup MRI revealed that the cancer was still there (everywhere - it was devastating and we both just wept as the doctor educated us about the MRI images and the nature and prognosis of our son's disease), we went forward with treatment (God ultimately provided for his treatment at St. Jude Children's Research Hospital). Some would say that going ahead with conventional treatment showed a lack of faith in God's ability to heal our son. Indeed, some contacted us telling us so. Others urged alternative therapies (offered in love, but utterly without supported, scientific medical proof that any of them work).
Nevertheless, we had done our research, prayerfully considered what to do, and felt that the study at St. Jude (which was the third in a series of studies which had shown not just survival rates, but cure rates increasing from 20% to over 80% in many cases) that our son had been accepted into was the right course.
During treatment, there were many songs which spoke to me, but there are two in particular that were significant in forming how I viewed our journey. The first one is 'Voice of Truth' by Casting Crowns. The following excerpt from the lyrics was helpful to both me and my husband - I'll explain below . . .
When it came to the idea that accepting conventional treatment meant we didn't have enough faith (something my husband was struggling with), God showed me that wasn't the case at all.
David's faith in God did not preclude him from gathering what he needed, to do what needed to be done, trusting that God was in the midst of it all. And that's what we were asked to do, as well.
The second song that so ministered to me is 'Something Beautiful' by Steven Curtis Chapman.
So many times I would have to purpose in my mind and heart to choose to trust God - trust that no matter the outcome, that there was value in the journey and that He was going to make something beautiful out of what we were in the middle of! Seeing beyond the circumstance; trusting (having faith) that God will redeem it somehow. And He has, and He continues to do so \o/!
Our son completed treatment in July of 2016 and has had quarterly scans since then (we actually recently returned from a trip to St. Jude) and all is well. There is scar tissue that they closely monitor, and we now will go for scans every six months instead of every three months. Each time we go, we trust that all is well, but have to wait for the tests to prove it out. There is a degree of stress that comes with these visits, and I wrote this during his one year post-treatment visit:
Processing through all of this as the week has gone by, I've realized how much like a sheep I really am and how good my Shepherd is. When doubts and fears creep in, He doesn't scold me for my faith not being big or strong enough, He reassures me that no matter what, He walks beside me. He reminds me that He is faithful and trustworthy, and that He loves me in the midst of whatever.
These quarterly visits to St. Jude Children's Hospital are so paradoxal - hard to have a reason to come back, joyful that we have a reason to come back, seeing and visiting with all of the amazing, wonderful people here who pour out their giftings and talents every day ministering to so many sweet children and their parents . . . and then walking out the necessary tests to see . . .
And so - hearing His gentle voice, I choose to trust my Good Shepherd. Our son's Good Shepherd. Our family's Good Shepherd. And we wait for the results of tests now run. And we trust, no matter what's what, because our Good Shepherd has promised to walk with us every step ♡ \○/ ♡.
Another mom that I got to know at St. Jude who's daughter was in treatment the same time as our son commented:
What you write is so very accurate. I really struggle with feeling like God is disappointed with me when I fear or have anxiety. The fact is sometimes it's completely uncontrollable and although it may be present I really try to pray through it and ask for His help and peace. Always praying for your son and your sweet family!
I replied:
I write all that to demonstrate this: I don't buy into the 'health and wealth, name it and claim it' theology. Some term it the health and wealth gospel - but it's not, it's a theology, or more accurately, an ideology built on AN interpretation of Scripture. But don't project the idea that those who ascribe to that ideology are heretics when it comes to THE Gospel - the Good News of the Work of Christ on our behalf, which when received bestows upon the believer the gifts of forgiveness, righteousness, and new life in Christ! When it comes to Joel Osteen and yes, Joseph Prince and others, they are absolutely believers in THE Gospel, and for folks here to condemn them (and anyone who dares to refer favorably to them) as heretics is not only error, but slander.
Do folks have the right to disagree with secondary, disputable matters? Of course! But to engage in the behavior and vitriol engaged in by some on this thread is simply wrong.
All Joanie was trying to do in the OP was to point folks to a guy who recognized that he may have had some misconceptions about Joel Osteen's book and needed to go to the source to sort out what HE thought about it instead of relying on what he had heard OTHERS say about Joel Osteen and his book. That's all. The example involved Joel Osteen, but the bigger picture she was trying to get some folks to see is that many of you look up online opinions written by others (who swim in the same theological streams you do) and rely on what they say so-and-so teaches to form your opinions instead of going to the source to form your opinion based on what so-and-so actually teaches!
You folks do understand that you don't have to agree with EVERYTHING someone believes and still be able to have unity with them, don't you?!
Or do you?
-JGIG
. Ah, but all is well with our child \o/! He is over a year and a half post-treatment and aside from the weird hair, some manageable long-term side effects from radiation and chemo, is a healthy, happy kid!
And I know Joanie well enough to know that she would not put the onus of his healing on our faith, but would always encourage us to have faith in our God Who does heal.
**Please understand that your post above was a jumping off point for what's written in this post, and is addressed to the readers of this thread as a whole, not directed to you specifically =) . . . **
Were there those (in our non-internet life) who came to us with the 'name it and claim it' message? Yes. And I reject that message. Our faith is in the One Who heals, not in how much I believe that a healing will take place.
My husband felt like he heard very clearly from God that "It's been taken care of" in the days following our son's diagnosis. His inclination was to believe that a followup MRI would reveal that God had miraculously healed our son. My impression was that, in an eternal perspective, no matter the outcome in this life, our son was safe in the Hands of our Good God.
When a followup MRI revealed that the cancer was still there (everywhere - it was devastating and we both just wept as the doctor educated us about the MRI images and the nature and prognosis of our son's disease), we went forward with treatment (God ultimately provided for his treatment at St. Jude Children's Research Hospital). Some would say that going ahead with conventional treatment showed a lack of faith in God's ability to heal our son. Indeed, some contacted us telling us so. Others urged alternative therapies (offered in love, but utterly without supported, scientific medical proof that any of them work).
Nevertheless, we had done our research, prayerfully considered what to do, and felt that the study at St. Jude (which was the third in a series of studies which had shown not just survival rates, but cure rates increasing from 20% to over 80% in many cases) that our son had been accepted into was the right course.
During treatment, there were many songs which spoke to me, but there are two in particular that were significant in forming how I viewed our journey. The first one is 'Voice of Truth' by Casting Crowns. The following excerpt from the lyrics was helpful to both me and my husband - I'll explain below . . .
. . .
Oh what I would do to have
The kind of strength it takes to stand before a giant
With just a sling and a stone
Surrounded by the sound of a thousand warriors
Shaking in their armor
Wishing they'd have had the strength to stand
But the giants are calling out my name and they laugh at me
Reminding me of all the times I've tried before and failed
The waves they keep on telling me
Time and time again
"Boy, you'll never win!
You'll never win"
. . .
But the stone was just the right size
To put the giant on the ground
And the waves they don't seem so high
From on top of them looking down
I will soar with the wings of eagles
When I stop and listen to the sound of Jesus
Singing over me
But the voice of truth tells me a different story
And the voice of truth says "Do not be afraid!"
And the voice of truth says "This is for My glory"
Out of all the voices calling out to me
I will choose to listen and believe the voice of truth
Oh what I would do to have
The kind of strength it takes to stand before a giant
With just a sling and a stone
Surrounded by the sound of a thousand warriors
Shaking in their armor
Wishing they'd have had the strength to stand
But the giants are calling out my name and they laugh at me
Reminding me of all the times I've tried before and failed
The waves they keep on telling me
Time and time again
"Boy, you'll never win!
You'll never win"
. . .
But the stone was just the right size
To put the giant on the ground
And the waves they don't seem so high
From on top of them looking down
I will soar with the wings of eagles
When I stop and listen to the sound of Jesus
Singing over me
But the voice of truth tells me a different story
And the voice of truth says "Do not be afraid!"
And the voice of truth says "This is for My glory"
Out of all the voices calling out to me
I will choose to listen and believe the voice of truth
When it came to the idea that accepting conventional treatment meant we didn't have enough faith (something my husband was struggling with), God showed me that wasn't the case at all.
- David's giant was a big guy; our giant was cancer in our son's brain and spine.
- David had faith that God could defeat the giant; we had faith that God could heal our son's cancer.
- Even though David knew that God could defeat the giant, he knew that he had to pick up his sling shot, and choose appropriate stones, load them, and use what was in his arsenal to defeat the giant. Likewise, even though we knew that God could heal our son, we put our faith in God's leading and put our son in the hands of those who had the appropriate 'sling shot and stones' - the arsenal - that would be used to defeat the cancer in our son's body. And there was a lot of peace in that! We knew that in an eternal perspective, our son would be fine - but for what would happen in this life - time would prove it out, and God would walk every step of the way with us.
David's faith in God did not preclude him from gathering what he needed, to do what needed to be done, trusting that God was in the midst of it all. And that's what we were asked to do, as well.
The second song that so ministered to me is 'Something Beautiful' by Steven Curtis Chapman.
I see you sitting over there with your head in your hands
And the mess life’s made of your best laid plans
You really want to shake your fist
But you don’t know who to blame
Well you can blame yourself or the man upstairs
Or the guy on the screen who says he cares
But all the shame and the blame won’t change a thing
What’s done is done
But grace has just begun
And the mess life’s made of your best laid plans
You really want to shake your fist
But you don’t know who to blame
Well you can blame yourself or the man upstairs
Or the guy on the screen who says he cares
But all the shame and the blame won’t change a thing
What’s done is done
But grace has just begun
And God’s says
I’m gonna turn it into something different
I’m gonna turn it into something good
I’m gonna take all the broken pieces
And make something beautiful like only I could
So put it all in the hands of the Father
Give it up, give it all over to
The only one who can turn it into
Something beautiful
Something really beautiful
I’m gonna turn it into something different
I’m gonna turn it into something good
I’m gonna take all the broken pieces
And make something beautiful like only I could
So put it all in the hands of the Father
Give it up, give it all over to
The only one who can turn it into
Something beautiful
Something really beautiful
We know the world got broke when it took the fall
And here we are living in the middle of it all
Longing, waiting for the day when everything’s restored
But the best of the beauty that we get to SEE
While we’re living down here in this “yet to be”
Is to watch God take the most broken things
And to hear Him say,
“When I get through, you’re gonna be amazed”
And here we are living in the middle of it all
Longing, waiting for the day when everything’s restored
But the best of the beauty that we get to SEE
While we’re living down here in this “yet to be”
Is to watch God take the most broken things
And to hear Him say,
“When I get through, you’re gonna be amazed”
‘Cause I’m gonna turn it into something different
I’m gonna turn it into something good
I’m gonna take all the broken pieces
And make something beautiful like only I could
So put it all in the hands of the Father
Give it up, give it all over to
The only one who can turn it into
I’m gonna turn it into something good
I’m gonna take all the broken pieces
And make something beautiful like only I could
So put it all in the hands of the Father
Give it up, give it all over to
The only one who can turn it into
Something beautiful
Something beautiful
Something beautiful
Put all the pieces in His hands
And watch Him turn it into something beautiful
Something beautiful
Something beautiful
Put all the pieces in His hands
And watch Him turn it into something beautiful
So many times I would have to purpose in my mind and heart to choose to trust God - trust that no matter the outcome, that there was value in the journey and that He was going to make something beautiful out of what we were in the middle of! Seeing beyond the circumstance; trusting (having faith) that God will redeem it somehow. And He has, and He continues to do so \o/!
Our son completed treatment in July of 2016 and has had quarterly scans since then (we actually recently returned from a trip to St. Jude) and all is well. There is scar tissue that they closely monitor, and we now will go for scans every six months instead of every three months. Each time we go, we trust that all is well, but have to wait for the tests to prove it out. There is a degree of stress that comes with these visits, and I wrote this during his one year post-treatment visit:
Processing through all of this as the week has gone by, I've realized how much like a sheep I really am and how good my Shepherd is. When doubts and fears creep in, He doesn't scold me for my faith not being big or strong enough, He reassures me that no matter what, He walks beside me. He reminds me that He is faithful and trustworthy, and that He loves me in the midst of whatever.
These quarterly visits to St. Jude Children's Hospital are so paradoxal - hard to have a reason to come back, joyful that we have a reason to come back, seeing and visiting with all of the amazing, wonderful people here who pour out their giftings and talents every day ministering to so many sweet children and their parents . . . and then walking out the necessary tests to see . . .
And so - hearing His gentle voice, I choose to trust my Good Shepherd. Our son's Good Shepherd. Our family's Good Shepherd. And we wait for the results of tests now run. And we trust, no matter what's what, because our Good Shepherd has promised to walk with us every step ♡ \○/ ♡.
Another mom that I got to know at St. Jude who's daughter was in treatment the same time as our son commented:
What you write is so very accurate. I really struggle with feeling like God is disappointed with me when I fear or have anxiety. The fact is sometimes it's completely uncontrollable and although it may be present I really try to pray through it and ask for His help and peace. Always praying for your son and your sweet family!
You're a sheep, too ♡! The image was so clear to me this morning - I was feeling a bit like you describe - like I *shouldn't* have fear or anxiety. And then God reminded me that sometimes sheep are fearful, sometimes they have anxiety because they can't see what's around the bend. But Christ is so gentle with His sheep - always there, building up, encouraging, leading while walking alongside, reassuring that no matter what's around the bend, He'll be there. So thankful for his grace and mercy \○/! He isn't disappointed in us, He just loves us!
I write all that to demonstrate this: I don't buy into the 'health and wealth, name it and claim it' theology. Some term it the health and wealth gospel - but it's not, it's a theology, or more accurately, an ideology built on AN interpretation of Scripture. But don't project the idea that those who ascribe to that ideology are heretics when it comes to THE Gospel - the Good News of the Work of Christ on our behalf, which when received bestows upon the believer the gifts of forgiveness, righteousness, and new life in Christ! When it comes to Joel Osteen and yes, Joseph Prince and others, they are absolutely believers in THE Gospel, and for folks here to condemn them (and anyone who dares to refer favorably to them) as heretics is not only error, but slander.
Do folks have the right to disagree with secondary, disputable matters? Of course! But to engage in the behavior and vitriol engaged in by some on this thread is simply wrong.
All Joanie was trying to do in the OP was to point folks to a guy who recognized that he may have had some misconceptions about Joel Osteen's book and needed to go to the source to sort out what HE thought about it instead of relying on what he had heard OTHERS say about Joel Osteen and his book. That's all. The example involved Joel Osteen, but the bigger picture she was trying to get some folks to see is that many of you look up online opinions written by others (who swim in the same theological streams you do) and rely on what they say so-and-so teaches to form your opinions instead of going to the source to form your opinion based on what so-and-so actually teaches!
You folks do understand that you don't have to agree with EVERYTHING someone believes and still be able to have unity with them, don't you?!
Or do you?
-JGIG
Some children are not healed.
I have absolutely no issue with your post. I can't ever recall having had issue with your posts, any of them. But then you don't say the same things as they do.