The Rapture of the Church is not biblical.
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I have raised a very valid and important point. Christians must ask themselves seriously if it is even possible for there to be any commonality between God's wrath and God's salvation.
1. Are the seven trumpet judgments connected with God's wrath? Absolutely.
2. Is the trump of God (the last trump) connected with God's ultimate act of salvation -- the resurrection and glorification of the saints who died, and the perfection, transformation, and glorification of the living saints? Absolutely.
So how can there be any possible relation between these trumpets, other than the word "trumpet"?
1. Are the seven trumpet judgments connected with God's wrath? Absolutely.
2. Is the trump of God (the last trump) connected with God's ultimate act of salvation -- the resurrection and glorification of the saints who died, and the perfection, transformation, and glorification of the living saints? Absolutely.
So how can there be any possible relation between these trumpets, other than the word "trumpet"?
This child who Just turned 2, saw Jesus and the rap. The Lord is saying through her to prepare our hearts in praying, for His return. Notice that she bows 3 times when her mom asks who is coming.
https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q...9&&FORM=VDRVRV
https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q...9&&FORM=VDRVRV
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God's wrath is announced at His coming. It is poured out by the seven bowls after He comes the saints are gathered unto Him. This is the first resurrection.
The seals and trumps are not His wrath but the great tribulation that Jesus said must come first. It will be a very terrible time and those saints that survive the man of sin's war on them will do only by the grace of God. But according to Scripture, the man of sin will make war on the saints for 1260 days, but some will survive.
Last means last. None to follow. If Paul had not meant last, he would not have said last.
Paul knew exactly what he was talking about.
The seals and trumps are not His wrath but the great tribulation that Jesus said must come first. It will be a very terrible time and those saints that survive the man of sin's war on them will do only by the grace of God. But according to Scripture, the man of sin will make war on the saints for 1260 days, but some will survive.
Last means last. None to follow. If Paul had not meant last, he would not have said last.
Paul knew exactly what he was talking about.
We should discuss the rest of what you said in a different thread. However, let's look at your quoted statement closely, and ask ourselves a couple of questions:
1. Does God put a difference between saved and unsaved, clean and unclean, holy and unholy? Absolutely.
2. Does God give His children the same things as the children of the Devil? Not at all.
3. Is the resurrection and perfection of the saints reserved for the saints -- the Bride of Christ? Absolutely
4. Then why would the last trumpet for the Church have any connection with the last trumpet for the damned?
Can you now see that when two groups of people are distinct from each other, then "last" for one group does not automatically become "last" for the other?
1. Does God put a difference between saved and unsaved, clean and unclean, holy and unholy? Absolutely.
2. Does God give His children the same things as the children of the Devil? Not at all.
3. Is the resurrection and perfection of the saints reserved for the saints -- the Bride of Christ? Absolutely
4. Then why would the last trumpet for the Church have any connection with the last trumpet for the damned?
Can you now see that when two groups of people are distinct from each other, then "last" for one group does not automatically become "last" for the other?
You are incorrect! The seals, trumpets and bowl judgments make up God's wrath, as Jesus is the One who is opening the seals.
In all sincerity, you have no idea what you are talking about! First of all, the seals, trumpets and bowls are all referred to as wrath in Revelation:
6th Seal announcement (includes all of the seals)
"They called to the mountains and the rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! For the great day of their wrath has come, and who can withstand it?”
7th Trumpet
"We give thanks to you, Lord God Almighty, the One who is and who was, because you have taken your great power and have begun to reign. The nations were angry, and your wrath has come. - Rev.11:17-18
Seven Bowl judgments
"I saw in heaven another great and marvelous sign: seven angels with the seven last plagues—last, because with them God’s wrath is completed." - Rev.15:1
The bowl judgments are said to be "Last" because with them God's wrath is completed. If the bowls are the "Last" of God's wrath, the other wrath would have to be "first" or before what is last, namely, the seals and the trumpets.
Obviously you don't understand that over half the earth's population is killed as a result of the 4th seal and 6 trumpet.
In all sincerity, you have no idea what you are talking about! First of all, the seals, trumpets and bowls are all referred to as wrath in Revelation:
6th Seal announcement (includes all of the seals)
"They called to the mountains and the rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! For the great day of their wrath has come, and who can withstand it?”
7th Trumpet
"We give thanks to you, Lord God Almighty, the One who is and who was, because you have taken your great power and have begun to reign. The nations were angry, and your wrath has come. - Rev.11:17-18
Seven Bowl judgments
"I saw in heaven another great and marvelous sign: seven angels with the seven last plagues—last, because with them God’s wrath is completed." - Rev.15:1
The bowl judgments are said to be "Last" because with them God's wrath is completed. If the bowls are the "Last" of God's wrath, the other wrath would have to be "first" or before what is last, namely, the seals and the trumpets.
Obviously you don't understand that over half the earth's population is killed as a result of the 4th seal and 6 trumpet.
Trumpet speaks of the unseen voice of God. Its what give us ears to hear what the unseen God is saying.It will be heard on the last day when the walls of this corrupted creation crumble and go up in smoke.
It is from that standpoint that God brought prophecy and signified it in parables looking back in time .Rev 1:10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,
Rev 1:10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,
The Lord's day is the last day spoken of 6 times in John 6 , Judgement day for the unbeliever ,the receiving of our new incorruptible bodies for those who do have the incorruptible seed that could never die or grow old .
It is from that standpoint that God brought prophecy and signified it in parables looking back in time .Rev 1:10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,
Rev 1:10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,
The Lord's day is the last day spoken of 6 times in John 6 , Judgement day for the unbeliever ,the receiving of our new incorruptible bodies for those who do have the incorruptible seed that could never die or grow old .
Well you have had your two cents worth. Here is my reply
I hope you are referring to my none belief in the Pre Trib/Dispensationalism although I doubt it because from experience I have come to realise that to Pre Tribbers the belief in it and salvation appears to be the same thing. Thats why they mount such a crusade against any Christian with a different view and can get very angry at those who disagree with them. Recently I have been accused of trying to destroy peoples faith in the blessed hope by Ahwatukee and spreading nonsensical propaganda by Nehemiah6. This is an open forum and I am as entitled to express my views as much as anyone else. I do not expect everyone to agree with me and have never doubted someones faith when they dont.
My faith is not in any specific particular position but in the shed blood of Christ. As I said in my last post I went through a phase of believing all the twists and turns of this system and rejected it.
I hope you are referring to my none belief in the Pre Trib/Dispensationalism although I doubt it because from experience I have come to realise that to Pre Tribbers the belief in it and salvation appears to be the same thing. Thats why they mount such a crusade against any Christian with a different view and can get very angry at those who disagree with them. Recently I have been accused of trying to destroy peoples faith in the blessed hope by Ahwatukee and spreading nonsensical propaganda by Nehemiah6. This is an open forum and I am as entitled to express my views as much as anyone else. I do not expect everyone to agree with me and have never doubted someones faith when they dont.
My faith is not in any specific particular position but in the shed blood of Christ. As I said in my last post I went through a phase of believing all the twists and turns of this system and rejected it.
Hallo there,
Rapture is fantasy, no one is going to escape just like that,
A famous person once said "..whoever endures even unto death, shall be given a crown of life..."
There are 2 groups of believers: 1. The unfaithful believers - by far the majority, their faith will be refined in fire as silver and gold
And 2. The faithful believers, these are only 144k. God Himself will look after them in the middle of the storm called tribulations. They are shelved from it.
Surely, no one is leaving this earth unless they die.
Rapture is fantasy, no one is going to escape just like that,
A famous person once said "..whoever endures even unto death, shall be given a crown of life..."
There are 2 groups of believers: 1. The unfaithful believers - by far the majority, their faith will be refined in fire as silver and gold
And 2. The faithful believers, these are only 144k. God Himself will look after them in the middle of the storm called tribulations. They are shelved from it.
Surely, no one is leaving this earth unless they die.
The rapture is no Bible fantasy. Every Christian will rapture "the dead in Christ shall rise first(rapture) the those which are alive will rapture." Direct Bible quote. This is a key Bible doctrine which happens at the last Trumpet of the seventh trumpet blast of John's revelation. And "this mortality will put on immortality" the new body "and this corrupt flesh incorrupt body" NT Greek. Jesus also gave a parable which he said to angels "gather my people from the four corners of the Earth."
But but but i don't think that is rapture, it is called resurrection and it happens in the very end. Daniel saw it too:
Dan 12: 2"Many of those who sleep in the dust of the ground will awake, these to everlasting life, but the others to disgrace and everlasting contempt.
It is also called the second resurrection but the first one is described here and in it also, no one flies off:
Rev 20: 4I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. They[SUP]a[/SUP] had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5(The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection. 6Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years.
Which one are you talking about?
Dan 12: 2"Many of those who sleep in the dust of the ground will awake, these to everlasting life, but the others to disgrace and everlasting contempt.
It is also called the second resurrection but the first one is described here and in it also, no one flies off:
Rev 20: 4I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. They[SUP]a[/SUP] had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5(The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection. 6Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years.
Which one are you talking about?
The Nicene Creed
I believe in one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible.
And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, begotten of the Father before all worlds; God of God, Light of Light, very God of very God; begotten, not made, being of one substance with the Father, by whom all things were made.
Who, for us men and for our salvation, came down from heaven, and was incarnate by the Holy Spirit of the virgin Mary, and was made man; and was crucified also for us under Pontius Pilate; He suffered and was buried; and the third day He rose again, according to the Scriptures; and ascended into heaven, and sits on the right hand of the Father; and He shall come again, with glory, to judge the quick and the dead; whose kingdom shall have no end.
And I believe in the Holy Ghost, the Lord and Giver of Life; who proceeds from the Father and the Son; who with the Father and the Son together is worshipped and glorified; who spoke by the prophets.
And I believe in one holy catholic and apostolic Church. I acknowledge one baptism for the remission of sins; and I look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the world to come. Amen.
That sums up my beliefs in case anyone else on site doubts my salvation
[HR][/HR]That sums up my beliefs in case anyone else on site doubts my salvation
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And what is the context of that quote?
Is there a third resurrection maybe? cause what you insinuate is not part of the two resurrections, right?
My beliefs can't be defeated because i get my understanding from the scriptures. It is like saying the scriptures are defeated by "...blah blah blah..."
Is there a third resurrection maybe? cause what you insinuate is not part of the two resurrections, right?
My beliefs can't be defeated because i get my understanding from the scriptures. It is like saying the scriptures are defeated by "...blah blah blah..."
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Oh, now you know more than Jesus because according to Jesus, this is the first resurrection:
Rev 20: 4I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. They[SUP]a[/SUP] had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5(The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection.6Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years.
And we know who takes part in this- those that were beheaded for their testimony about Jesus. We also know that their souls are resurrected, not bodies.
I'm now torn between you and Jesus, who should i listen.
Rev 20: 4I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. They[SUP]a[/SUP] had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5(The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection.6Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years.
And we know who takes part in this- those that were beheaded for their testimony about Jesus. We also know that their souls are resurrected, not bodies.
I'm now torn between you and Jesus, who should i listen.
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