GALATIANS 3:5....BY THE WORKS OF THE LAW OR BY THE HEARING OF FAITH?
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So many times in discussions I think we all fall victim to not talking about the same thing, although we perhaps think we do. I think it boils down to defining the debate. In this case "hypergrace".
I know this is meant as a derogatory term but this is what it means to me in the positive sense:
The Blood of Jesus and HIS righteousness is applied to me when I sinned in the past, sin today, or sin tomorrow.
This does NOT mean I have a license to sin, but instead this revelation has meant that I sin LESS. Which has truly freed me to grow in maturity in the Lord.
I believe Joanie, (ladylynn) and especially Bruce, were not only spot on in this matter, but were able to articulate this in a comprehensive and loving manner.
In the negative sense, I believe hypergrace errs terribly with this PHYSICAL healing, and TEMPORAL prosperity, in the atonement.I believe it is destructive and un-Biblical. As many of us have said ad nauseam, that doesn't mean the Lord cannot, nor does not heal. Only that it is in accordance with His Will and purposes.
I could be wrong, but I don't remember Bruce espousing this. Joanie has and does. I guess I can see a little bit this becoming a sinless perfection issue, which although not said, might be implied by both. But then again I have seen both vehemently strive against blatant sinless perfectionists here in the past. So I'm not sure that can stick.
In ALL matters I would implore my brothers and sisters to live 1 Corinthians 13, and if if/when you see me failing to do so, I'm charging you with calling me out on it!
I know this is meant as a derogatory term but this is what it means to me in the positive sense:
The Blood of Jesus and HIS righteousness is applied to me when I sinned in the past, sin today, or sin tomorrow.
This does NOT mean I have a license to sin, but instead this revelation has meant that I sin LESS. Which has truly freed me to grow in maturity in the Lord.
I believe Joanie, (ladylynn) and especially Bruce, were not only spot on in this matter, but were able to articulate this in a comprehensive and loving manner.
In the negative sense, I believe hypergrace errs terribly with this PHYSICAL healing, and TEMPORAL prosperity, in the atonement.I believe it is destructive and un-Biblical. As many of us have said ad nauseam, that doesn't mean the Lord cannot, nor does not heal. Only that it is in accordance with His Will and purposes.
I could be wrong, but I don't remember Bruce espousing this. Joanie has and does. I guess I can see a little bit this becoming a sinless perfection issue, which although not said, might be implied by both. But then again I have seen both vehemently strive against blatant sinless perfectionists here in the past. So I'm not sure that can stick.
In ALL matters I would implore my brothers and sisters to live 1 Corinthians 13, and if if/when you see me failing to do so, I'm charging you with calling me out on it!
You have already murdered by anger in your heart, even if you don't physically slay anyone, and have been an adulterer by a thought of someone else. How do you propose you will follow the law knowing this standard of holiness is how God sees it?
Will you follow it by trying really hard to never get angry inside? Or will you trust Him to change you?
Will you follow it by trying really hard to never get angry inside? Or will you trust Him to change you?
"..it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy." (Romans 9:16)
"So then neither is he that planteth any thing, neither he that watereth; but God that giveth the increase." (1 Corinthians 3:7)
"..for neither, if we eat [receive], are we the better; neither, if we eat not [receive not], are we the worse." (1 Corinthians 8:8)
"So then neither is he that planteth any thing, neither he that watereth; but God that giveth the increase." (1 Corinthians 3:7)
"..for neither, if we eat [receive], are we the better; neither, if we eat not [receive not], are we the worse." (1 Corinthians 8:8)
I was tempted to like your post 
. Can't give you a secret rep for some reason. It reminds me of grade school when two kids have a disagreement, and then each person's friends come up and stand behind them (like, like like), and the situation escalates and turns into an us/them confrontation, then everyone starts fighting.
. Can't give you a secret rep for some reason. It reminds me of grade school when two kids have a disagreement, and then each person's friends come up and stand behind them (like, like like), and the situation escalates and turns into an us/them confrontation, then everyone starts fighting.Here is the thing about doing things in my own natural strength vs. trust that doesn't get talked about (from what I've seen.)
We all start not fully grasping it or grasping it for a time and then not quite grasping it for a time. We kind of...move into it. As we get to know Gods' mind more and are permitted to see some of the victories He gives us, we move away from seeing certain verses as warnings and begin to see them as comforts and as cause for rejoicing at the work He does in us.
We move into more trust. It grows. And that's what begins to make us see some of the verses a little differently. We move more and more away from trust in our own natural strength and ability and more and more into complete trust and rest in Him.
So...a lot of the time we are catching someone in some between stage. To make allusions to them being unsaved or to be mean with them or say they should be banned makes their pride and their flesh kick in harder, which is what we DON'T want to be the cause of.
We all start not fully grasping it or grasping it for a time and then not quite grasping it for a time. We kind of...move into it. As we get to know Gods' mind more and are permitted to see some of the victories He gives us, we move away from seeing certain verses as warnings and begin to see them as comforts and as cause for rejoicing at the work He does in us.
We move into more trust. It grows. And that's what begins to make us see some of the verses a little differently. We move more and more away from trust in our own natural strength and ability and more and more into complete trust and rest in Him.
So...a lot of the time we are catching someone in some between stage. To make allusions to them being unsaved or to be mean with them or say they should be banned makes their pride and their flesh kick in harder, which is what we DON'T want to be the cause of.
I was tempted to like your post . Can't give you a secret rep for some reason. It reminds me of grade school when two kids have a disagreement, and then each person's friends come up and stand behind them (like, like like), and the situation escalates and turns into an us/them confrontation, then everyone starts fighting.
. Can't give you a secret rep for some reason. It reminds me of grade school when two kids have a disagreement, and then each person's friends come up and stand behind them (like, like like), and the situation escalates and turns into an us/them confrontation, then everyone starts fighting.
I do see what you've said though. People have even said to me: how can you like that persons post, based on their behavior or on what they think concerning this or that? It is puzzling to me because if someone says something true, then it is true. I'm not going to not "like" it based on anything else other than, is it the truth?
Yes. He gives us that. There is no condemnation. We are covered. But He then begins to work in us and we begin to walk it out. I don't know if that explains it well...He doesn't just cover us with His righteousness but begins to make us walk righteously.
He has done this with you, I've seen some of it. You admit your anger or unforgiveness toward someone. You don't try to hide it or minimize it. That is walking uprightly and with honesty and integrity. Admitting the truth is walking uprightly. Being honest is doing righteously.
He has done this with you, I've seen some of it. You admit your anger or unforgiveness toward someone. You don't try to hide it or minimize it. That is walking uprightly and with honesty and integrity. Admitting the truth is walking uprightly. Being honest is doing righteously.
To whom it may concern., If people here are looking for a chink in my armor..., I'm sure they will find something since I'm in no way a perfect human being. I'm misrepresented often by some regulars on here who visit and then post on my threads for what I believe about healing in the atonement.
I've said many times over and over and even used to say it in my responsive posts to the false accusations from the same people., I do not believe in "sinless perfection" I do not believe in healing for those who are "worthy" in themselves. All we have is because of and only because of Jesus and His gift of righteousness.
But to NO AVAIL. Healing just as walking in the Spirit so we don't sin comes from Jesus Christ., not from our own righteousness's. This OP discusses that very thing on both accounts. But it was ignored again on both accounts. People see what they want to see and misrepresented the OP again and again.
My words to defend myself are most often very much ignored by the same people here who seek to shut me down simply because of my belief on healing in the atonement and because it goes against their beliefs and their experiences in life. I've discovered defending myself against such accusations is a wasteful endeavor. I believe in letting Jesus be our defense.
I don't even try to reason with those regulars anymore., because their motives are clear. Shut down any and all who believe in healing in the atonement as heretics and liars and wolves in sheep's clothing.
Shut down any and all who have faith that does not represent the walk of maybe 85% of the believers on this site. Shut them down and shut them up because they threaten our beliefs and experiences.
But I say this...if something is triggering you?... You need to examine yourselves as to why you are "triggered" Why you are easily thrown into a ridiculous frenzy in your flesh that proceeds to post wild accusations about others full of sarcasm and meanness directed only to hurt the ones who believe things you don't.
My posts are clear and when I post something that is not mine., there are links in the post even the one you were given stunnedbygrace. You are free to believe my very specific accusers. You can look in that very specific post you were given and find the blue links to Escape2Reality by Paul Ellis. A name that brings from others here judgment and false accusation each time it's used as well as Pastor Joseph Prince as well as Andrew Wommack as well as any and all of the people who agree with healing in the atonement and miracles for today that are called "heretics" like me.
I make no apology for my posts. And for the 1 or 2xs I've not put the name out there in an obvious way but allowed the links to do that job?... I'll make sure to put the name and also allow the link so as to prevent those who have sought to (and still seek to) diligently find fault with me., so as to misrepresent the truth... will have no footing to do so.
I give credit where credit is due and always seek to do that. I have no interest in taking credit for someone else's work. If you don't believe me I have NO interest in changing your opinions. You are free to believe what you like. But I DO have an interest in posting the truth and do and will enjoy the way Escape2Reality for instance explains., exhorts., encourages., uplifts., and admonishes the believer. For that I make no apologies. I share exactly what I am learning each day. I also make no apologies for that either.
So if finding my weaknesses is your goal? For sure people will find some many and varied weaknesses of mine. And while doing that and adding their own very false accusations and misrepresentations of what I say and have said., if the owners of this site don't look carefully into all my posts., I could very well be banned for those very false representations of me.
If I am as evil and heretical as some here say and report I am?..... than by your standards of judgment and condemnation I should be banned and even put in jail. But I am confident that the truth will prevail. And if it does not in regards to my reputation? Than I will go the way of others who are much better than I ever was.
I've said many times over and over and even used to say it in my responsive posts to the false accusations from the same people., I do not believe in "sinless perfection" I do not believe in healing for those who are "worthy" in themselves. All we have is because of and only because of Jesus and His gift of righteousness.
But to NO AVAIL. Healing just as walking in the Spirit so we don't sin comes from Jesus Christ., not from our own righteousness's. This OP discusses that very thing on both accounts. But it was ignored again on both accounts. People see what they want to see and misrepresented the OP again and again.
My words to defend myself are most often very much ignored by the same people here who seek to shut me down simply because of my belief on healing in the atonement and because it goes against their beliefs and their experiences in life. I've discovered defending myself against such accusations is a wasteful endeavor. I believe in letting Jesus be our defense.
I don't even try to reason with those regulars anymore., because their motives are clear. Shut down any and all who believe in healing in the atonement as heretics and liars and wolves in sheep's clothing.
Shut down any and all who have faith that does not represent the walk of maybe 85% of the believers on this site. Shut them down and shut them up because they threaten our beliefs and experiences.
But I say this...if something is triggering you?... You need to examine yourselves as to why you are "triggered" Why you are easily thrown into a ridiculous frenzy in your flesh that proceeds to post wild accusations about others full of sarcasm and meanness directed only to hurt the ones who believe things you don't.
My posts are clear and when I post something that is not mine., there are links in the post even the one you were given stunnedbygrace. You are free to believe my very specific accusers. You can look in that very specific post you were given and find the blue links to Escape2Reality by Paul Ellis. A name that brings from others here judgment and false accusation each time it's used as well as Pastor Joseph Prince as well as Andrew Wommack as well as any and all of the people who agree with healing in the atonement and miracles for today that are called "heretics" like me.
I make no apology for my posts. And for the 1 or 2xs I've not put the name out there in an obvious way but allowed the links to do that job?... I'll make sure to put the name and also allow the link so as to prevent those who have sought to (and still seek to) diligently find fault with me., so as to misrepresent the truth... will have no footing to do so.
I give credit where credit is due and always seek to do that. I have no interest in taking credit for someone else's work. If you don't believe me I have NO interest in changing your opinions. You are free to believe what you like. But I DO have an interest in posting the truth and do and will enjoy the way Escape2Reality for instance explains., exhorts., encourages., uplifts., and admonishes the believer. For that I make no apologies. I share exactly what I am learning each day. I also make no apologies for that either.
So if finding my weaknesses is your goal? For sure people will find some many and varied weaknesses of mine. And while doing that and adding their own very false accusations and misrepresentations of what I say and have said., if the owners of this site don't look carefully into all my posts., I could very well be banned for those very false representations of me.
If I am as evil and heretical as some here say and report I am?..... than by your standards of judgment and condemnation I should be banned and even put in jail. But I am confident that the truth will prevail. And if it does not in regards to my reputation? Than I will go the way of others who are much better than I ever was.
I went back and looked joanie. You highlighted some words in blue in two places in your post. When I clicked on those few words, it did take me there. But it just looks like you highlighted a few words in a color. There was no reason for anyone to click on those highlighted words. They just looked like words put in a different color.
This very well could be acceptable for internet use, I'm not an expert. But considering that lots of people highlight things they want to emphasize in all different colors, I don't think some people are going to click on color highlighted words or understand that you are making the statement by them that the words of the post are not your own.
I'm glad you didn't bring misunderstanding on purpose but that you just didn't understand about citation. And as I said, maybe on the internet, the way you did it is understood by all but me and is acceptable...I'm clueless about internet norms.
This very well could be acceptable for internet use, I'm not an expert. But considering that lots of people highlight things they want to emphasize in all different colors, I don't think some people are going to click on color highlighted words or understand that you are making the statement by them that the words of the post are not your own.
I'm glad you didn't bring misunderstanding on purpose but that you just didn't understand about citation. And as I said, maybe on the internet, the way you did it is understood by all but me and is acceptable...I'm clueless about internet norms.
1 John 5:18 (NASB)
[SUP]18 [/SUP] We know that no one who is born of God sins; but He who was born of God keeps him, and the evil one does not touch him.
1 John 3:9 (KJV)
[SUP]9 [/SUP] Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
If the new creation in Christ is sinning - then these verses would mean that no Christian is actually born of God ( because everyone sins in some form or other as whatsoever is not of faith is sin) which would account for the heresy that people are not born again until they get a new body.
This also explains why the new birth is a mystery to this belief system - this also explains why the new creation in Christ created in righteousness and holiness is a mystery to this mindset.
This also would explain their need to make themselves righteous by what they do or don't do and thus nullify the truth of the gospel of the grace of God in Christ's work. Rom 1:16-17 shows that in "the gospel" the righteousness of God is revealed. ( Not our own righteousness )
All sinning is done in the flesh - called the works of the flesh in Gal. 5
Romans 8:9-10 (NASB)
[SUP]9 [/SUP] However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him.
[SUP]10 [/SUP] If Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, yet the spirit is alive because of righteousness.
Re: How corrupt is the human heart?
[SUP]18 [/SUP] We know that no one who is born of God sins; but He who was born of God keeps him, and the evil one does not touch him.
1 John 3:9 (KJV)
[SUP]9 [/SUP] Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
If the new creation in Christ is sinning - then these verses would mean that no Christian is actually born of God ( because everyone sins in some form or other as whatsoever is not of faith is sin) which would account for the heresy that people are not born again until they get a new body.
This also explains why the new birth is a mystery to this belief system - this also explains why the new creation in Christ created in righteousness and holiness is a mystery to this mindset.
This also would explain their need to make themselves righteous by what they do or don't do and thus nullify the truth of the gospel of the grace of God in Christ's work. Rom 1:16-17 shows that in "the gospel" the righteousness of God is revealed. ( Not our own righteousness )
All sinning is done in the flesh - called the works of the flesh in Gal. 5
Romans 8:9-10 (NASB)
[SUP]9 [/SUP] However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him.
[SUP]10 [/SUP] If Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, yet the spirit is alive because of righteousness.
The understanding of the circumcision of Christ where the new creation in Christ is "cut away" from the flesh is a life changing revelation of the wonderful awesome work that our Lord did when we died with Him on the cross and rose again to being a new creation - joined as one spirit with Him for eternity - sealed by the Holy Spirit who raised Jesus from the dead.
The truth is that Jesus has already saved us from our sins. If we don't know that - then a lot of the good news of what Jesus did will be a blurr to us.
We will end up searching for sin in our lives constantly and I have news for all of us. There will be sin in our flesh until we get rid of theses bodies.
We will be constantly trying to clean up the flesh but the only way to not fulfill the lusts of the flesh is by the Spirit in us.
That is why the circumcision of Christ is imperative to understand in order to grow up in Christ.
Abraham's circumcision was a shadow of being circumcised in Christ now from our flesh. We are cut away from the flesh and our inner man of the new creation - our new spirit created in righteousness and holiness in Christ.
What do we do with the old flesh that is cut away? We throw it out and you can not have it put back on as it is dead. The same goes for our spiritual circumcision in which our flesh is cut away from our inner man - the spirit where Christ dwells.
We are completely sealed by the Holy Spirit within our spirit in our circumcision in Christ.
Understanding spiritual circumcision is important to get a revelation of the new creation in Christ now and to the understanding that our new hearts are pure now because our heart and Christ are one spirit - created in righteousness and holiness - by the incorruptible seed of God which abides forever.
When scriptures talk about the circumcision ( cutting away from) of the heart and of the flesh - it is 2 sides of the same coin.
Romans 2:29 (NASB)
[SUP]29[/SUP] But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from God.
Colossians 2:11 (NASB)
[SUP]11[/SUP] and in Him you were also circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, in the removal of the body of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ;
The truth is that Jesus has already saved us from our sins. If we don't know that - then a lot of the good news of what Jesus did will be a blurr to us.
We will end up searching for sin in our lives constantly and I have news for all of us. There will be sin in our flesh until we get rid of theses bodies.
We will be constantly trying to clean up the flesh but the only way to not fulfill the lusts of the flesh is by the Spirit in us.
That is why the circumcision of Christ is imperative to understand in order to grow up in Christ.
Abraham's circumcision was a shadow of being circumcised in Christ now from our flesh. We are cut away from the flesh and our inner man of the new creation - our new spirit created in righteousness and holiness in Christ.
What do we do with the old flesh that is cut away? We throw it out and you can not have it put back on as it is dead. The same goes for our spiritual circumcision in which our flesh is cut away from our inner man - the spirit where Christ dwells.
We are completely sealed by the Holy Spirit within our spirit in our circumcision in Christ.
Understanding spiritual circumcision is important to get a revelation of the new creation in Christ now and to the understanding that our new hearts are pure now because our heart and Christ are one spirit - created in righteousness and holiness - by the incorruptible seed of God which abides forever.
When scriptures talk about the circumcision ( cutting away from) of the heart and of the flesh - it is 2 sides of the same coin.
Romans 2:29 (NASB)
[SUP]29[/SUP] But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from God.
Colossians 2:11 (NASB)
[SUP]11[/SUP] and in Him you were also circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, in the removal of the body of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ;
Re posted for herosefrom..... in case you missed it the first time. I got this as it's obvious from the other thread and used Grace777s post.
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If this is really the case, then you should simply apologize to all the Christians who refuse to accept the false teachings of Joseph Prince et al, and promise to cease and desist from posting their nonsense. You are always welcome to post your own thoughts without reference to any other person's published material.