Do We Have To Keep The Law?

[7seasrekeyed]

Originally Posted by Cee

The Law was good, but the sin in us was not. The Law showed us that we needed a Savior. This is why Paul says the Law was given UNTIL... so why did Jesus say the Law would always exist because without Christ the Law shuts up the world until they allow Him to have mercy. But He came to fulfill the Law? Love is the fulfillment of the Law. And He empowers us with His love to love one another.

obedience saw the law fulfilled

love is the motivation, but holy and perfect love moving towards the fulfillment of the plan of God which, as He indicated, was in His mind from the foundation of the world

this, is above the pay grade of our finite understanding, but some do understand what they can of it, better than others

and that is not meant as a slam or insult. just a general observation. I've given up trying to respond to several not just in this thread, but the forum period

 

[7seasrekeyed]

I’m not angry.

But just so I’m clear did you just say faith doesn’t make us righteous?

I’m asking about this part here:

”but that does not make us righteous”

Cee I know you are not angry as the above post will indicate

if you were angry, I would ignore you

we don't have to agree other than understand the peace of God that passes our own understanding and the love that is shed abroad in our hearts by God

that love is not selfish or or absorbed with itself. right? I think you get that

so no worries. I know you are not angry and if you were, you would prob come back and apologize.

 

[7seasrekeyed]

But just so I’m clear did you just say faith doesn’t make us righteous?

I’m asking about this part here:

”but that does not make us righteous”

I'm not sure why you think that?

no, I believe our faith makes us righteous...right from the beginning and always..

Abraham's faith was accounted to him as righteousness...so not sure why you think I thought otherwise?

anyway, been on here too long this am anyway...but later

 

[Grandpa]

What is the vail brother? It was their believe that they could be saved by keeping the law. When the vail is taken away we come to the realisation we need Christ and in it still be obedient to His word because He is the living word.

Nope. The vail is over the mind of those who think they still need to work at the law.

The vail is over the mind of those who still think that their obedience to their understanding of the 10 commandments make them righteous before God.

This is not so. The vail comes off in Christ. Also a much better understanding of the scriptures as well.

 

[Cee]

I'm not sure why you think that?

no, I believe our faith makes us righteous...right from the beginning and always..

Abraham's faith was accounted to him as righteousness...so not sure why you think I thought otherwise?

anyway, been on here too long this am anyway...but later

Okay cool.

Your statement of “But that doesn’t make us righteous” threw me off.

I haven’t seen you post anything like that before so I asked to understand better.

Hope you enjoy your day

 

[Studyman]

Read the sermon on the mount, study it, take it in, and you will see how the law is flawed as a means of helping us to be righteous,

As jesus said, the law says, (the law written in stone),but i tell you.....(basically showing how the law was not enough, the law said do not commit adultry, but i tell you..)

Actually Matthew 5 is where I learned much of my belief.

Matt. 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

Then He said;

21
Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment:

EVERY TIME Jesus referred to Old Testament writings He said: "It is written". 26 times in the New Testament by Him, and 67 total times in the New Testament all together.

But Jesus didn't say "It is written" in Matt. 5. He said:"Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time"


20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven. Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment:

I don't believe Jesus was referring to Moses teaching here, but the teaching of "them" of old time which had prosecuted the prophets and taught for doctrines the Commandments of men.

But I say: "22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment:"

Which the Word which became Flesh did teach in His Gospel.

Lev. 19:17 Thou shalt not hate thy brother in thine heart: thou shalt in any wise rebuke thy neighbour, and not suffer sin upon him.

So it seems He is rebuking the teaching of the Pharisees, not adding or taking away from the Laws of God, and showing how the Pharisees didn't teach what the Word which became Flesh taught. Which is confirmed by Jeremiah, Isaiah, Paul and Jesus the Christ Himself over and over.

He says the same thing in Matt. 23.

Matt. 23:23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

So they taught His Word's when He said "Thou shall not kill" but omitted the weightier matters of the Law, "Thou shall not Hate your Brother in your heart."

Which explains why Jesus said just prior to this: "Not one Jot or Tittle shall pass from His Law" and that those listening had to be more righteous than the Pharisees which "omitted" much of the important part of God's teaching in the Law and Prophets, namely, Love for God, and Love for others on which "hang" all of the Word's of the Word which became Flesh.

I don't believe the teaching of the Word which became Flesh is flawed as you preach. They were good enough to make Jesus righteous, so in my mind, they are good enough for me.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Actually Matthew 5 is where I learned much of my belief.

Matt. 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

Then He said;

21
Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment:

EVERY TIME Jesus referred to Old Testament writings He said: "It is written". 26 times in the New Testament by Him, and 67 total times in the New Testament all together.

But Jesus didn't say "It is written" in Matt. 5. He said:"Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time"


20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven. Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment:

I don't believe Jesus was referring to Moses teaching here, but the teaching of "them" of old time which had prosecuted the prophets and taught for doctrines the Commandments of men.

But I say: "22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment:"

Which the Word which became Flesh did teach in His Gospel.

Lev. 19:17 Thou shalt not hate thy brother in thine heart: thou shalt in any wise rebuke thy neighbour, and not suffer sin upon him.

So it seems He is rebuking the teaching of the Pharisees, not adding or taking away from the Laws of God, and showing how the Pharisees didn't teach what the Word which became Flesh taught. Which is confirmed by Jeremiah, Isaiah, Paul and Jesus the Christ Himself over and over.

He says the same thing in Matt. 23.

Matt. 23:23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

So they taught His Word's when He said "Thou shall not kill" but omitted the weightier matters of the Law, "Thou shall not Hate your Brother in your heart."

Which explains why Jesus said just prior to this: "Not one Jot or Tittle shall pass from His Law" and that those listening had to be more righteous than the Pharisees which "omitted" much of the important part of God's teaching in the Law and Prophets, namely, Love for God, and Love for others on which "hang" all of the Word's of the Word which became Flesh.

I don't believe the teaching of the Word which became Flesh is flawed as you preach. They were good enough to make Jesus righteous, so in my mind, they are good enough for me.

So in other words

if our righteousness does not exceed the pharisees, we need christ

if it does, we do not need christ,,

thank you.

 

[Cee]

Actually Matthew 5 is where I learned much of my belief.

Matt. 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

Then He said;

21
Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment:

EVERY TIME Jesus referred to Old Testament writings He said: "It is written". 26 times in the New Testament by Him, and 67 total times in the New Testament all together.

But Jesus didn't say "It is written" in Matt. 5. He said:"Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time"


20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven. Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment:

I don't believe Jesus was referring to Moses teaching here, but the teaching of "them" of old time which had prosecuted the prophets and taught for doctrines the Commandments of men.

But I say: "22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment:"

Which the Word which became Flesh did teach in His Gospel.

Lev. 19:17 Thou shalt not hate thy brother in thine heart: thou shalt in any wise rebuke thy neighbour, and not suffer sin upon him.

So it seems He is rebuking the teaching of the Pharisees, not adding or taking away from the Laws of God, and showing how the Pharisees didn't teach what the Word which became Flesh taught. Which is confirmed by Jeremiah, Isaiah, Paul and Jesus the Christ Himself over and over.

He says the same thing in Matt. 23.

Matt. 23:23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

So they taught His Word's when He said "Thou shall not kill" but omitted the weightier matters of the Law, "Thou shall not Hate your Brother in your heart."

Which explains why Jesus said just prior to this: "Not one Jot or Tittle shall pass from His Law" and that those listening had to be more righteous than the Pharisees which "omitted" much of the important part of God's teaching in the Law and Prophets, namely, Love for God, and Love for others on which "hang" all of the Word's of the Word which became Flesh.

I don't believe the teaching of the Word which became Flesh is flawed as you preach. They were good enough to make Jesus righteous, so in my mind, they are good enough for me.

Remember when Jesus said that he held two things against them...

1) They wouldn’t come to Him for righteousness.
2) They didn’t love people from their heart. It was an outward show, but not an inner transformation. They were white washed graves. They had death in them. Not life.

Jesus was pointing them to their need for Him. That’s why He said only sinners need a Physician. It is Jesus who empowers us to love one another which is the fulfillment of the Law. And it exceeds the righteousness of the Pharisees. John was the greatest of men, but the least son of God is greater than him.

 

[seed_time_harvest]

The law Is GOD's perfect standard of Righteousness.

 

[Studyman]

So in other words

if our righteousness does not exceed the pharisees, we need christ

if it does, we do not need christ,,

thank you.

You know better than that EG. I said no such thing. I made the case as to what Jesus was speaking to in Matt 5. If you don’t agree, tell me why. But come on, you and I both know I have never implied, said, even suggested I don’t need Christ. But I do believe we should follow His instruction until the end.

 

[Cee]

The law Is GOD's perfect standard of Righteousness.

You believe ALL that is contained in God’s perfect standard of righteousness is found in only 10 simple commands?

 

[Studyman]

Remember when Jesus said that he held two things against them...

1) They wouldn’t come to Him for righteousness.
2) They didn’t love people from their heart. It was an outward show, but not an inner transformation. They were white washed graves. They had death in them. Not life.

Jesus was pointing them to their need for Him. That’s why He said only sinners need a Physician. It is Jesus who empowers us to love one another which is the fulfillment of the Law. And it exceeds the righteousness of the Pharisees. John was the greatest of men, but the least son of God is greater than him.

John was created for his purpose as prophesied. He had no choice regarding his mission. We must choose God and His Ways.

The Pharisees didn’t come to the Word which became Flesh for instruction in righteousness, they created their own as it is written, and taught others their own version of God’s instruction. That is what Jesus was clearing up in Matt 5.

 

[star]

What does the New Testament say about it?

If we are under the Law, we are not led by the Spirit. (Galatians 5:18)

Christ is the end of the Law (Romans 10:4)

No one is justified by the works of the Law (Galatians 2:16)

It has been abolished (Ephesians 2:15)

The Law is not for the Righteous. (1 Timothy 1:8, Galatians 2:21, Romans 3:20)

We can't keep it (James 2:10)

Not even the Jews could (Galatians 6:13)

The Law and faith do not mix (Romans 3:27-28)

If we rely on observing the Law we place ourselves under a curse (Galatians 3:10-11)

The Law is a curse that Jesus redeemed us from (Galatians 3:13)

If we continue in the Law we are fools (Galatians 3:2-3)

We are to live by faith, which the Law is not based on (Galatians 3:11-12)

The Law is lifeless (Galatians 3:21)

The Law only makes us prisoners (Galatians 3:23-25)

We become alienated from Christ (Galatians 5:4)

The Law is weak and makes nothing perfect (Hebrews 7:18-19)

It can never take away sins (Hebrews 10:4)

Paul said he himself was not under the Law (1 Corinthians 9:20)

We have been released from the Law (Romans 7:6)

The Law has been canceled and nailed to the cross (Colossians 2:14)

We are dead to the Law (Romans 7:4)

It is obsolete, outdated, and will disappear (Hebrews 8:13)

We have been justified apart from the Law (Romans 3:21-22, 27-28)

We are under grace, not the Law (Romans 6:14)


Clear enough?

Jesus was the fulfillment of the Law. He is the example of the creature God intended us to be from the very beginning. Christ is whom we should imitate, not any other.. The Law brought mankind to the Son, not the other way around.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

You know better than that EG. I said no such thing. I made the case as to what Jesus was speaking to in Matt 5. If you don’t agree, tell me why. But come on, you and I both know I have never implied, said, even suggested I don’t need Christ. But I do believe we should follow His instruction until the end.

thats what i read. And i see no other way to interpret what you said, if there is another way, then Explain,

we have been iver that passage before, you know i disagree, and i am prety sure you inow the reason why.

 

[Jackson123]

You ignore the simple fact that Jesus said the law is eternal and will end only when the heavens and earth disappear. We acknowledge this every time we admit we sin. The definition of sin is transgression of the law. Christians are not under the penalty of the law but those who reject Jesus will be judged by the law. Woe to them at judgement time! I sincerely believe no one posting here knows all of the 613 laws scattered in the Torah.

what is your interpretation of the law is Eternal?


​because the law is eternal, is that mean you kill sabbath violator, and do weekly sabbath?

[h=1]Numbers 15:32-36 New King James Version (NKJV)[/h][h=3]Penalty for Violating the Sabbath[/h]32 Now while the children of Israel were in the wilderness, they found a man gathering sticks on the Sabbath day. 33 And those who found him gathering sticks brought him to Moses and Aaron, and to all the congregation. 34 They put him under guard, because it had not been explained what should be done to him.
35 Then the Lord said to Moses, “The man must surely be put to death; all the congregation shall stone him with stones outside the camp.” 36 So, as the Lord commanded Moses, all the congregation brought him outside the camp and stoned him with stones, and he died.

 

[Shamah]

what is your interpretation of the law is Eternal?


​because the law is eternal, is that mean you kill sabbath violator, and do weekly sabbath?

Numbers 15:32-36 New King James Version (NKJV)

Penalty for Violating the Sabbath

32 Now while the children of Israel were in the wilderness, they found a man gathering sticks on the Sabbath day. 33 And those who found him gathering sticks brought him to Moses and Aaron, and to all the congregation. 34 They put him under guard, because it had not been explained what should be done to him.
35 Then the Lord said to Moses, “The man must surely be put to death; all the congregation shall stone him with stones outside the camp.” 36 So, as the Lord commanded Moses, all the congregation brought him outside the camp and stoned him with stones, and he died.

No matter how many times you are shown judgement is given to the Messiah you still prop up this as evidence against His Law:

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]John 5:21-30,21 “For as the Father raises the dead and makes alive, even so the Son makes alive whom He wishes."22 “For the Father judges no one, but has given all the judgment to the Son,"23 that all should value the Son even as they value the Father. He who does not value the Son does not value the Father who sent Him."24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me possesses everlasting life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life."25 “Truly, truly, I say to you, the hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of Elohim. And those having heard shall live."26 “For as the Father possesses life in Himself, so He gave also to the Son to possess life in Himself,"27 and He has given Him authority also to do judgment, because He is the Son of Aḏam."28 “Do not marvel at this, because the hour is coming in which all those in the tombs shall hear His voice,"29 and shall come forth – those who have practiced righteousness, to the resurrection of life, and those who have practised evil matters, to a resurrection of judgment."30 “Of Myself I am unable to do any matter. As I hear, I judge, and My judgment is righteous, because I do not seek My own desire, but the desire of the Father who sent Me."[/FONT]

 

[7seasrekeyed]

Okay cool.

Your statement of “But that doesn’t make us righteous” threw me off.

I haven’t seen you post anything like that before so I asked to understand better.

Hope you enjoy your day

oh sorry

went back and saw how you could see it that way

I meant we do not have our own righteousness

our faith is accounted as righteousness...not what we do but trusting in Christ

hope that's clearer

 

[Studyman]

thats what i read. And i see no other way to interpret what you said, if there is another way, then Explain,

we have been iver that passage before, you know i disagree, and i am prety sure you inow the reason why.

You read my post and "saw" that I was saying we come to a place where don't need Christ. Can you show me where?

seriously, you make these claims, shouldn't you at least show the decency of telling me what part of the Post gave you this impression? Surely you don't really believe I think I don't need the Christ?

You said to read Matt. 5 which I have spent a great deal of time studying. Where is my understanding of it wrong?

 

[Jackson123]

No matter how many times you are shown judgement is given to the Messiah you still prop up this as evidence against His Law:

John 5:21-30,21 “For as the Father raises the dead and makes alive, even so the Son makes alive whom He wishes."22 “For the Father judges no one, but has given all the judgment to the Son,"23 that all should value the Son even as they value the Father. He who does not value the Son does not value the Father who sent Him."24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me possesses everlasting life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life."25 “Truly, truly, I say to you, the hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of Elohim. And those having heard shall live."26 “For as the Father possesses life in Himself, so He gave also to the Son to possess life in Himself,"27 and He has given Him authority also to do judgment, because He is the Son of Aḏam."28 “Do not marvel at this, because the hour is coming in which all those in the tombs shall hear His voice,"29 and shall come forth – those who have practiced righteousness, to the resurrection of life, and those who have practised evil matters, to a resurrection of judgment."30 “Of Myself I am unable to do any matter. As I hear, I judge, and My judgment is righteous, because I do not seek My own desire, but the desire of the Father who sent Me."

No matter how many time you say law never change you show evident you object you self

it was ongregation kill the sabbath violator, never change mean now you as congregation must kill the violator, the word not pass away, still the same, why you change it and now Mesiah did it?

you object yourself, not me

 

[Endoscopy]

So in other words

if our righteousness does not exceed the pharisees, we need christ

if it does, we do not need christ,,

thank you.

To exceed the Pharisees you must never sin.