Charles Taze Russell and the Bible Students

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zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
27,214
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#81
Charles Taze Russell was never associated with the Jehovah's Witnesses organization. Russell did not believe in such an organization, and he preached against such authoritarianism.

Furthermore, Russell did not believe in the kind of message that is preached by the Jehovah's Witnesses. Russell's main message, the ransom for all, is almost the very opposite of that which the Jehovah's Witnesses preach.

I believe it is therefore incorrect to think of Charles Taze Russell as the founder of that which he did not believe in, and that which he preached against.

Russell founded no religion, no denomination, etc. He was a non-sectarian who did not believe in sectarianism or denominationalism. The only religion he believed in was that of Jesus and the apostles.

The real founder of the Jehovah's Witnesses organization was Joseph Rutherford.

See:
Russell Was Not the Founder of Jehovah's Witnesses
unfortunately for the revisionists, its too late.
we already have all the information we need. a face-lift means nothing.

Russell was not within the 33 degrees: HE WAS HIGHER. so please don't spam for that lot.

it's over...every dark corner is going to have the light shine on it, and those who are known of Jesus Christ know FULL WELL His Kingdom is not of this world.
 

zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
27,214
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#82
Re: Fruit of the Spirit

Jesus was not speaking of any group, organization or movement as whole when he said by their fruits you shall know them. He was speaking of any Christian as an individual, whether he might associated with any denomination, any sect, any movement. It is the individual Christian that must produce the fruit of the spirit; the individual cannot leave that to being dependent on association with a sectarian denomination, organization, etc. Indeed, such a sectarian spirit hinders the development of the fruit of the spirit.
Jesus was not speaking about true Christians at all in that passage.
no, it's the pretenders He is referring to, and they know exactly what they are doing.
 
Feb 14, 2011
1,783
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#83
Re: Fruit of the Spirit

Jesus was not speaking about true Christians at all in that passage.
no, it's the pretenders He is referring to, and they know exactly what they are doing.
Please correct me if i am wrong; The JW is a shoot of the seventh day adventist.
 
Feb 14, 2011
1,783
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#84
hi
they're called (among other names) UNITARIANS.
we have some here at CC, and others here who affirm thier doctrines and beliefs.
they should be able to answer your questions.

BUT DO NOT QUESTION THOSE BELIEFS: the only requirement for entering heaven is believing the simple words of scripture that Jesus is the son of God. nothing more. it doesn't matter if Jesus was created in Mary's womb, or if He partook of the Divine Nature at His Baptism, or if He was just a really obedient man who gained God's favour.

so, accept Unitarianism and Arianism as legitimate Christianity (Jehovah's Witnesses, too since they also revere Jesus, even though he was just a created entity) or be an obnoxious and divisive figure in the church, and WE DON'T WANT THAT.

STOP BRINGING UP DOCTRINE! NOBODY CARES. SO STUDY ALL YOU WAT, ASK QUESTIONS, BUT KEEP YOURMOUTH SHUT ABOUT ANY UNORTHODOX DOGMA, SINCE THERE IS NO ORTHODOXY.

we all get to believe whatever we want, and you better not even suggest otherwise.

CAN'T WE ALL JUST GET ALONG?
No we christians can not do that,eccepting any believes,for they are preaching an other Jesus.
Correct me if i am wrong; The JW is an offshoot of the seventh day adventist.
 
R

ResLight

Guest
#85
yes of course.
so they are polythesists on some level.
Since what Russell presented was simply what the scriptures themselves show concerning the uasge of the words for deity, then to apply the above in a consistent manner, if would mean that the Bible is 'polythieistic on some level.' Some say the Bible is henotheistic. I will just say that Bible says what it says, without giving it a label.

There is only one Most High ever presented in the Bible, and Jesus is never once presented as possessing the "nature" (or quality) of being the Most High. Any such thought that it does has to call upon the spirit of human imagination, creating assumptions based on what is imagined, and those assumptions have to be formed into some kind of dogma, and thus what ends actually being presented as proof is what is imagined and assumed and laid over the scriptures.

http://godandson.reslight.net
 

zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
27,214
164
63
#86
No we christians can not do that,eccepting any believes,for they are preaching an other Jesus.
Correct me if i am wrong; The JW is an offshoot of the seventh day adventist.
why can't we accept the unitarian, arian and jw accounts and professions: they don't believe jesus is God.
that's ok with you isn't it wakeup?
 

zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
27,214
164
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#87
Since what Russell presented was simply what the scriptures themselves show concerning the uasge of the words for deity, then to apply the above in a consistent manner, if would mean that the Bible is 'polythieistic on some level.' Some say the Bible is henotheistic. I will just say that Bible says what it says, without giving it a label.

There is only one Most High ever presented in the Bible, and Jesus is never once presented as possessing the "nature" (or quality) of being the Most High. Any such thought that it does has to call upon the spirit of human imagination, creating assumptions based on what is imagined, and those assumptions have to be formed into some kind of dogma, and thus what ends actually being presented as proof is what is imagined and assumed and laid over the scriptures.

http://godandson.reslight.net
i would like to introduce you to my young brother zack...he (and many others) can help you resolve the issue:

Jesus, the Word who was with God and the Word who was God (John 1:1), our Mighty God, the Father of Eternity (Avi-ad), our Wonderful Counselor (Isa. 9:6), our God and Savior (Titus 1:3,4, 2:13, 2 Peter 1:1), the Alpha and Omega (Revelation 1:7-8, 22:13), the Ego Eimi, the Lord of me and the God of me (John 20:28, 29, Psalm 5:2), the name that is above every name...

Jesus Christ is my Savior and God.


"Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for unless you believe that I AM He [egō eimi] , you will die in your sins "
(John 8:24)

"You are My witness, declares the LORD, And My servants whom I have chosen, So that you may know and believe Me And understand that I AM He [ egō eimi; cf, LXX] . Before Me there was no God formed, And there will be none after Me"
(Isa. 43:10)

"For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him. He is before all things, and in him all things hold together."
(Col. 1:16-17)
http://christianchat.com/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=458402
 
Dec 19, 2009
2,723
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#88
Since what Russell presented was simply what the scriptures themselves show concerning the uasge of the words for deity, then to apply the above in a consistent manner, if would mean that the Bible is 'polythieistic on some level.' Some say the Bible is henotheistic. I will just say that Bible says what it says, without giving it a label.

There is only one Most High ever presented in the Bible, and Jesus is never once presented as possessing the "nature" (or quality) of being the Most High. Any such thought that it does has to call upon the spirit of human imagination, creating assumptions based on what is imagined, and those assumptions have to be formed into some kind of dogma, and thus what ends actually being presented as proof is what is imagined and assumed and laid over the scriptures.

http://godandson.reslight.net
The John 8:24 quote does not mean a person has to believe Christ is God Himself or they will die in their sins. That is completely untrue

I am LBG BTW

Jesus made plain the condition on which a person believe him to be to inherit eternal life

The son of God

The idea that this was not really true and that a person had to believe he was God Himself because of when he said the words I am is ludicrous.
 
R

ResLight

Guest
#89
it doesn't matter, since the entire purpose is the denial that Jesus Christ is Emannuel.
I do not know of any of the Bible Students that would deny that Jesus has the title of Immanuel (Emmanuel); Russell certainly never denied such.

http://www.mostholyfaith.com/bible/ScripturexRef.asp?parm=KJV^Matthew^1^23
http://www.mostholyfaith.com/bible/ScripturexRef.asp?parm=KJV^Isaiah^7^14

Jesus is given the title Immauel, since, through Jesus, God is indeed with His people.

See:
Matthew 1:23 – Immanuel, God with us.
Jesus is Not Yahweh: Matthew 1:23: Immanuel - Does This Mean that Jesus is God?
 
R

ResLight

Guest
#90
Bible Students and "Man is Becoming God"?

they have to be polytheists because every one of those cults says man is becoming god.
I am not sure what to make of this statement. I would need to have more clarification as to how it is thought that Russell or any other author amongst the Bible Students is making such a claim that man is becoming god. Is the thought that man will be brought back to what Adam lost thought to mean that man is becoming god?

I do not know of any place that Russell said that "man is becoming god". He certainly never said anything about any man becoming the Most High Yahweh, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

Jesus, himself, however, spoke of the sons of the Most High to whom the Logos came as being "gods" -- deity -- in the sense of the mightiness given through the holy spirit. (Psalm 82:6; John 1:12; 10:34,35) This demonstrates the Hebraic usage of the words for deity in a sense other than being the Most High.
Psalm 82:6 – Who Are the Gods?

Only the God of Jesus, however, is the only true Might of the universe (John 17:1,3,5; Ephesians 1:3, 1 Peter 1:3); there is no might in the universe aside from, since he is the source of all might, all power, etc.
 
R

ResLight

Guest
#91
he had an agenda
Of course, anyone who begins to write something has some kind of an agenda; every book in the Bible has an agenda. The overall agenda is to glorify God.

Russell gave a synopsis of his purpose in starting the Watch Tower in the prospectus to the first issue of the Watch Tower:
Z1879 July
See also his Supplement to the first issue:
Supplement to the First Issue of the Watch Tower

and mission accomplished unfortunately for those who listen to him.
How is it unfortunate for those who listened to him? I consider myself highly blessed as a result of reading and studying his works. I have come to realize that many things are in the Bible that I would probably never have realized before, and I have come to realize that many things I had been taught and/or thought were in the Bible are not there at all.

Indeed, if it had not been for God's guidance in directing me to his works and that of the Bible Students, I may have lost all faith in practically anything, as I was deeply troubled as to why so many people were suffering so greatly in the world. I can remember back in the latter 1950s and early 1960s when I read the book of Ecclesiastes and was very depressed, for I failed to tie its message together with the rest of the Bible. I could not comprehend why God was permitting so much misery in the world.

From the perspective of the man's orthodoxy, most of these suffering people will spend an eternity of suffering even worse than the suffering they have gone through in the present life. From the standpoint of the JWs and many other similar groups I investigated, most of the people suffering in the world are to go into eternal destruction, and in the case of the JWs, they believe that their children with them are to be eternally destroyed, making their suffering in this world totally senseless.

It was only when I began to study some the writings of the Bible Students that I began to see what the scriptures say about all this, and also why so few in the present time understand these matters, but that eventually everyone will understand. I will be eternally thankful for the blessings of this knowledge. I can also say that there are thousands of Bible Students all over the world who would testify similarly.

Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord, Jesus Christ. -- Ephesians 1:3.
 
R

ResLight

Guest
#92
unfortunately for the revisionists, its too late.
we already have all the information we need. a face-lift means nothing.
I am not sure who is being referred to as "the revisionists"; Rutherford certainly did a lot of revision of what actually happened in the days of Russell and afterwards. I haven't been able to keep up as well with the JW publications since they quit providing home subscriptions, but as far as I can tell, their writers still distort history, and would revise history to fit their "organization" perspective.

Russell was not within the 33 degrees: HE WAS HIGHER.
Russell, of course, not being a Mason at all, and if he was a son of God as I believe he was, was indeed higher in degree than any degree of the Masons. However, the thought that Russell was a Mason is another example of those who wish revise history, since Russell was never a member of the Masons at all.

so please don't spam for that lot.
Not sure what "that lot" refers to.

it's over...every dark corner is going to have the light shine on it, and those who are known of Jesus Christ know FULL WELL His Kingdom is not of this world.
This I agree with. God bless. This present corrupted world will pass away, and God's kingdom can then fill the earth, and every corner of the earth will eventually have the light of God's glory shining in it. -- Isaiah 2:4-5; 6:3; 11:9; 40:5; Daniel 2:35,44; Habakkuk 2:14.

Eventually, every Hindu that has ever lived, every Muslim that has ever lived, every pagan that has ever lived, absolutely every man, woman, child, baby, etc., that has descended from Adam will have been enlightened. No one will be condemned to the second death without first being enlightened with an accurate knowledge of truth so that they will have been given full opportunity, based on that full knowledge, to obey or disobey; it is only after one has been enlightened with a full knowledge of the truth, that if that person, after becoming a son of God, willfully sins, there is no more sacrifice for sin left (Hebrews 10:26); such a person, having become a new creation, and then willfully tramples upon Christ (Hebrews 10:29), does not go back under the condemnation in Adam, since all in Adam are redeemed. (1 Corinthians 15:21,22; Romans 5:12-19; 1 Timothy 2:5,6) They come under a new condemnation, the second death, for which there is no redemption.

Yes, God's kingdom is not of this word that has come under a bondage of corruption through the sin of Adam. Jesus was born into this world, but he was not of this world. His body was specially prepared by God (Hebrews 10:5); thus he was not of this world that has been corrupted through the sin of Adam. -- Romans 5:12-19; 8:20-22; 2 Peter 1:4.

Likewise, those who become sons of God through regeneration in this age, are sons because they are a new creation, reckoned as belonging to the age to come (Hebrews 6:5), when the present world will have passed away. (2 Corinthians 5:17; Revelation 21:1-5) As new creatures in Christ, they are not of this world; their new birth is not as a descendant of Adam who sinned. It is these, however, who are being selected out of the world in this age, who are, with Jesus, the seed of Abraham that will bless all the heathen in the age to come, when God's kingdom fills the earth, when the earth will no longer be hindered by the blinding influence of Satan. -- Galatians 3:26,29; Genesis 22:18; Revelation 20:3.
 

zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
27,214
164
63
#93
I do not know of any of the Bible Students that would deny that Jesus has the title of Immanuel (Emmanuel); Russell certainly never denied such.

http://www.mostholyfaith.com/bible/ScripturexRef.asp?parm=KJV^Matthew^1^23
http://www.mostholyfaith.com/bible/ScripturexRef.asp?parm=KJV^Isaiah^7^14

Jesus is given the title Immauel, since, through Jesus, God is indeed with His people.

See:
Matthew 1:23 – Immanuel, God with us.
Jesus is Not Yahweh: Matthew 1:23: Immanuel - Does This Mean that Jesus is God?
ok.
so its polytheism
or jesus was man highly favored by God.

neither is Christianity.
 

zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
27,214
164
63
#94
Re: Bible Students and "Man is Becoming God"?

I am not sure what to make of this statement. I would need to have more clarification as to how it is thought that Russell or any other author amongst the Bible Students is making such a claim that man is becoming god. Is the thought that man will be brought back to what Adam lost thought to mean that man is becoming god?

I do not know of any place that Russell said that "man is becoming god". He certainly never said anything about any man becoming the Most High Yahweh, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

Jesus, himself, however, spoke of the sons of the Most High to whom the Logos came as being "gods" -- deity -- in the sense of the mightiness given through the holy spirit. (Psalm 82:6; John 1:12; 10:34,35) This demonstrates the Hebraic usage of the words for deity in a sense other than being the Most High.
Psalm 82:6 – Who Are the Gods?

Only the God of Jesus, however, is the only true Might of the universe (John 17:1,3,5; Ephesians 1:3, 1 Peter 1:3); there is no might in the universe aside from, since he is the source of all might, all power, etc.
same same

if jesus isnt THE GOD, he's a little god (or some other created being - Arianism...common, but heresy)

if we are becoming like little god jesus we will be little gods too (maybe littler than jesus but gods none the less)

that use of the word elohim referring to israel's leaders means magistrates, rulers, givers and protectors of the law....it does not in any way say deity.


JESUS IS THE CREATOR. NOTHING EXISTS THAT HE DID NOT CREATE. THE FATHER SON AND SPIRIT ARE ONE GOD. ONE TRIUNE GOD....ETERNALLY
 
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zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
27,214
164
63
#95
Of course, anyone who begins to write something has some kind of an agenda; every book in the Bible has an agenda. The overall agenda is to glorify God.

Russell gave a synopsis of his purpose in starting the Watch Tower in the prospectus to the first issue of the Watch Tower:
Z1879 July
See also his Supplement to the first issue:
Supplement to the First Issue of the Watch Tower



How is it unfortunate for those who listened to him? I consider myself highly blessed as a result of reading and studying his works. I have come to realize that many things are in the Bible that I would probably never have realized before, and I have come to realize that many things I had been taught and/or thought were in the Bible are not there at all.

Indeed, if it had not been for God's guidance in directing me to his works and that of the Bible Students, I may have lost all faith in practically anything, as I was deeply troubled as to why so many people were suffering so greatly in the world. I can remember back in the latter 1950s and early 1960s when I read the book of Ecclesiastes and was very depressed, for I failed to tie its message together with the rest of the Bible. I could not comprehend why God was permitting so much misery in the world.

From the perspective of the man's orthodoxy, most of these suffering people will spend an eternity of suffering even worse than the suffering they have gone through in the present life. From the standpoint of the JWs and many other similar groups I investigated, most of the people suffering in the world are to go into eternal destruction, and in the case of the JWs, they believe that their children with them are to be eternally destroyed, making their suffering in this world totally senseless.

It was only when I began to study some the writings of the Bible Students that I began to see what the scriptures say about all this, and also why so few in the present time understand these matters, but that eventually everyone will understand. I will be eternally thankful for the blessings of this knowledge. I can also say that there are thousands of Bible Students all over the world who would testify similarly.

Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord, Jesus Christ. -- Ephesians 1:3.
i don't have time today, but i will (if i have to) get the other side of Russell, and the entire organization and the agenda.
its not that hard. look at their symbols....very precisely shows exactly where in the BROTHERHOOD they are.
 
Feb 14, 2011
1,783
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#96
Re: Bible Students and "Man is Becoming God"?

same same

if jesus isnt THE GOD, he's a little god (or some other created being - Arianism...common, but heresy)

if we are becoming like little god jesus we will be little gods too (maybe littler than jesus but gods none the less)

that use of the word elohim referring to israel's leaders means magistrates, rulers, givers and protectors of the law....it does not in any way say deity.


JESUS IS THE CREATOR. NOTHING EXISTS THAT HE DID NOT CREATE. THE FATHER SON AND SPIRIT ARE ONE GOD. ONE TRIUNE GOD....ETERNALLY
Is that in the scriptures? The triune God,or is that just added on for some on known reason?The triune God,the trinity God,and whats next.Oh yes God the father,God the Son, God the holy spirit. Next would be the SUN God.
 
R

RR144

Guest
#97
hi, they're called (among other names) UNITARIANS. we have some here at CC, and others here who affirm thier doctrines and beliefs. they should be able to answer your questions.
I know you corrected yourself on this. Unitarians are "spiritual" not necessarily "doctrinal". They don't have any doctrinal platform. One can believe whatever they want and still be a member of good standing.

RR
 

phil36

Senior Member
Feb 12, 2009
8,260
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#98
Before Abraham was, I am

I and the Father are one.


I glorified you on earth, having accomplished the work that you gave me to do. And now, Father, glorify me in your own presence with the glory that I had with you before the world existed. "I have manifested your name to the people whom you gave me out of the world. Yours they were, and you gave them to me, and they have kept your word.


And ofcourse...what did sonship mean in 1st century Palestine?

Jesus Christ is God, Lord and Saviour.
 
Dec 19, 2009
2,723
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#99
Re: Bible Students and "Man is Becoming God"?

Is that in the scriptures? The triune God,or is that just added on for some on known reason?The triune God,the trinity God,and whats next.Oh yes God the father,God the Son, God the holy spirit. Next would be the SUN God.
How can you get anywhere in discussion with people who completely ignore the plainest of scripture on this subject and count it as irrelevant, and then call people heretics and tell them they are condemned for standing on the belief that Christ continually stated would give them everlasting life?

I guess the following scriptures to them should read

Therefore God exalted himself to the highest place
And gave himself the name that is above every name
That at the name of God
Every knee should bow
In Heaven and on earth
And every tongue confess that God is God
To the glory of God

I have loved righteousness
And hated wickedness
Therefore I have set myself above my companions
And annointed myself with the oil of joy

The Lord said to himself
I will sit at my own right hand
Until I have put all my enemies under my feet
 

phil36

Senior Member
Feb 12, 2009
8,260
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For LBG and Wakeup,

I will put the ball back in your court.

Where in Scripture does Jesus say He is not the one true God? Please answer thank you kindly.