Only Believe (and stop the negative)

Red33 · Dec 8, 2012

zone said:

Even if one was raised from the dead to the glory of God, you would call it a hoax and not believe it the same way you have portrayed the rapture and catching away of the church, because with your understanding He would never do such a thing. With God all things are possible but according to you resurrection life among other things is not part of the all things. Has God simply shut off His resurrection life? Was Paul one of the few that knew the power of His resurrection (Phil 3:10) and did not our Lord use Peter to raise from being dead a disciple named Tabitha, who had taken sick and died in (Acts 9:36-42). Will there not be two prophets that come from God recorded in (Rev 11) who shall be killed by the beast that the Lord will raise from the dead through the Spirit of life after three and a half days or is that some symbolic happenstance that does not literally happen? How are we to apply (Rom 8:11) in relationship to the mortal body...

11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

Can this passage have an application to the mortal body that is sick or has died and is quickened and made alive through the Spirit that dwells in them or has entered into them? I see plenty of room for God to heal the sick and raise the dead for the glory of the Father and to turn the heart of those that live in unbelief. I also see God using the gifts at certain times and in certain places to help those who live in unbelief about many things, including healing. Even Thomas said in (Jn 20:24-31) that he would not believe that Christ was raised unless he could with his own eyes and the Lord showed Himself to him. What needs to be showed to you for you to believe that He is the resurrection and the life, that He is the God of all flesh with nothing is too hard for Him and that with Him ALL things are possible with and through Him if we believe? If we ask Him for bread will He give us a stone?

psychomom · Dec 8, 2012

Red33 said:

I hope this comes across the right way, because I am truly not trying to be contentious.

But in the above passage...exactly whose faith was being acted upon?
I mean, in v. 52 it says they all wept and mourned.
And in v. 52 they actually scorned Him.

So, yeah, Jesus said, 'Only believe...'. But did anyone actually do that?

Most sincerely,
ellie

lesjude · Dec 8, 2012

Trax said:

No, it is clearly not the case in the Bible: James 5:14-15. The elders have the responsibilty once they are called to pray the prayer of faith.
Mark 16:17-18

New King James Version (NKJV)

17 And these signs will follow those who believe: In My name they will cast out demons; they will speak with new tongues; 18 they[a] will take up serpents; and if they drink anything deadly, it will by no means hurt them; they will lay hands on the sick, and they will recover.”
It says "those who believe". It does not say the sick have to believe anything. Jesus healed many who did not even know Him and at least 2 were dead. He clearly says here that believers can do the same.

Red33 · Dec 8, 2012

psychomom said:

The context of this passage goes back to (v.40). Jairus was the daughter's father, the ruler of the synagogue, who on his knees besought the Lord to come to His house for his (12) yr old daughter lay sick dying. After the crowd that thronged Him, a woman with an issue of blood touched Him and virtue came from Him and healed her. The Lord looked upon her and told her that her faith had made her whole. Then in (v.49) one came to Jairus, who was among the crown to bring him the news that his daughter was dead and he need not trouble the master. BUT JESUS HEARD THIS and said FEAR NOT, BELIEVE ONLY AND SHE SHALL BE MADE WHOLE (v.50). Jesus went directly to the house with the mother and father and with Peter, James and John. All those who were there wept and were grieved and when the Lord had said she was not dead but only sleeping that is when they laughed Him to scorn.

Mark's gospel gets more specific as to this event and in (5:39) He says to those that are making such an ado (uproar)...

39And when he was come in, he saith unto them, Why make ye this ado, and weep? the damsel is not dead, but sleepeth.

In other words, 'I am here, I am the resurrection and the life, don't you know who I am'? All those that were living in unbelief and scorned Him, except for the parents and Peter, James and John he kicked them out (Mk 5:40, Lk 8:54). He 'putting them out' has the connotation that it was done with extreme disgust and emotional force behind the action, 'Get out and away from me because your unbelief is not welcomed in this situation'. If I was say it in short terms it would be, GET OUT NOW!!!!!!!!! Jesus addressed their unbelief with rejection and extreme disapproval. He was not going to have their unbelief hanging around when He was about to raise this damsel from her sleep of death.

Does that sound like the Jesus that you serve and trust or is it the Jesus that we have defined for us but these men who walked with Him? What this passage does for me it this. If I am praying and believing God for someone to be healed, I am going to make darn sure that no one is around to express unbelief. Just like when Jesus sent those condemning accusers away who wanted to stone the adulterous women an was left alone with her, so that He could give her grace and she could see the goodness of God and go away not sinning any more in that area of weakness that caused her to sin.

Those that were in the room with Jesus did not scorn Him or live in unbelief like the others who were kicked out. They were astonished with great astonishment (Mk 5:42). They were thrown out of joint mentally because of what they saw with their own eyes as the damsel arose and walked.

TheMachine · Dec 8, 2012

I did Post this in LesJudes other thread on the same topic with a different name.....it does seem to fit here.

Does Jesus heal people with out faith? The myths of faith healing.
Some believers focus exclusively on faith as the key to healing. Yet Jesus healed many who apparently had no faith. Some were healed because their friends had faith. Others were bound up by demonic spirits and healed by exorcism, even against their wills.

The truth is that God heals. The myth is that God always heals now at the initiative of our faith.

Faith teacher Frederick K.C. Price has asserted: "The seventh method of receiving healing--[which] I believe is the highest kind of faith--is the highest way to receive healing...If you believe you receive it, you will confess that: 'Bless God, I believe I am healed. I believe I have received my healing...I believe that it is so. I believe that I can walk in divine health all the days of my life.' You are reading after one man who will never be sick, and I'm not being presumptuous."

Myth is mixed here with truth. The highest kind of faith is, "I believe in Jesus," not just, "I believe."
It is true that faith must be our initiative. But even our initiative comes through the prompting of the Holy Spirit: "No one can say that Jesus is Lord except by the Holy Spirit" (1 Cor. 12:3). Our faith helps us receive healing, just as the lack of faith hinders healing. But healing does not depend on faith. Healing depends on the Healer.

This is another article I found....I like the use of scripture...it lets LesJudes know I'm not rude.LesJudes you and Fred KC Price sound a lot alike.....Here's a little more that I found insightful....again note the use of scripture....

Consider this biblical example. In John 5 Jesus healed one paralytic at the pool of Bethesda though a multitude thronged that place daily to be healed. Why was one man healed at that moment while others were not?

John 5:19 gives the answer when Jesus confessed, "'Most assuredly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of Himself, but what He sees the Father do; for whatever He does, the Son also does in like manner.'"

Bible scholar Jack Deere correctly observes that the initiative for the miraculous in Jesus' ministry did not begin with Him but with the Father. "He healed only the people He saw His Father healing," Deere writes. "The only firm reason for the healing of the paralytic that we can derive from the context of John 5 is that the Father willed it, and Jesus executed His Father's will ... We are ultimately faced with the conclusion that sometimes the Lord works miracles for His own sovereign purposes without giving any explanation for His actions to His followers."

Gods own soveriegn purpose..... If you put demands on God doesn't that interfere with His purpose? When Christ went through the effort of showing us how to pray was the term "Thy will be done" not used? LesJudes by throwing around your assumptions and absolutes like they are free you are usurping Gods will and authority.

Even Christ when praying asked that the cup be taken from Him. He then said that Gods will be done...... since the cup wasn't taken away doesn't that mean by YOUR understanding that Jesus Christ just didn't have enough faith to avoid is coming affliction and death???
I understand you assertions and admire the tenacity of your conviction, but if Peter could make mistakes so could I and so could you....I see it that perhaps you have seen miracles and that is amazing and that you have had healing, Glory be to God for providing them, but we answer to the Father he surely does not answer to us......Thy will, not my will!

The Machine

Some of Gods greatest gifts, are unanswered prayers.......Garth Brooks

Tommy4Christ · Dec 8, 2012

To believe is to follow and obey the Lord, no such thing as faith alone, or a done deal salvation also known as imputation, and substitution being propagated by all the false teachers out there today, and please be careful how you hear the word of God, your translation is off, and the only believe, saved IN sin , osas gospel is a doctrine of demons!

Strong Delusion

"Because they did not receive a love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this reason God will send them strong delusion that they should believe a lie!" 2Thess2:11
The Modern church is in turmoil. Corruption is rampant. Sound Doctrine has fallen to the ground. (2Tim4:1-5) Although they have full, free access to the Bible, the Very WORDS of God, they cannot agree on the basic fundamental issues of: Repentance, Faith, sin & Grace. Pastors stand in pulpits and tell people in one breath to 'obey God & live holy' and in the next, that they are not 'able' to obey. They insist that Grace is NOT license to sin, while at the same time they teach it's normal to for a real Christian to sin everyday! No wonder people are confused.
The average professing Christian who attends church on a regular basis is perplexed & frustrated, wholly ignorant of Bible truth, but convinced they will make it to heaven in the end because of Grace. Ask them to produce a single shred of evidence that their faith is genuine or that they understand the true nature of God's Redeeming Grace & be accused of 'judging' or preaching a 'works' salvation. Self examination is out of the question because it is by 'grace' we are saved through faith, not of works! (Eph2:8-9)
The real possibility of having the 'faith' of devils, as James2:19 states, "The devils believe and tremble!", has never occurred to them. They have heard that 'Faith without works is dead' (Js2:17) But they do not understand the true impact of this statement and how it applies to genuine saving faith. The reason James said that faith without deeds is dead is because your DEEDS are the ONLY evidence that salvation has taken place in your soul! That's why scripture points out that you will be judged ACCORDING to your deeds! Rom2:7-10, John6:29, 2Cor5:10
Faith is substance & evidence, Heb11:1, and it is EVIDENT by your Obedience to God that you have NOT believed in Vain! 1Cor15:2. Thus scripture states that true faith, 'Works by love, purifies the heart & has victory over the world' Gal5:6, 1Pet1:22, 1Jh5:4 You are not left in bondage to sin & satan, groping in darkness and lusting in your heart.
IF YOU ARE TRULY SAVED, you have been:
"Called out of darkness into His marvelous light!" 1Pet2:9
"Turned from darkness to light, from the power of satan to God!" Acts24:18
"Delivered from the power of darkness & translated into the kingdom of His love!" Col1:13
"Crucified with Christ & made dead to sin." Rom6:6-7
"Turned into a New Creation in Christ!" 2Cor13:5
"Escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust." 2Pet1:4
So please stop kidding yourselves about entering the Kingdom. If you are still in bondage to sin, lust or greed, you are NOT on the road to heaven. Your 'faith' has been hijacked by the false teachers. The deceiving spirits have spoken lies into your ears, you believed them and have forfeited your inheritance through the deceitfulness of sin. (Heb3:11-14) How could this possibly happen, you ask? False doctrine is the key.
False teaching through Spiritual doublespeak:
By the use of scriptural language and proper sounding terminology, the deceiving spirits have been able to deceive multitudes of preachers into teaching a 'doctrine' of demons! 1Tim4:1
The subtly of this deception is brilliant. Here's how it works:
1) They undermine the authority of God's Word by questioning the meaning.
For example on the issue of salvation by Grace not of works. They conclude that since 'grace' is a free gift from God, unmerited favor, man can do nothing to earn it, therefore he can do nothing to effect its outcome once he has received it! Called the doctrine of 'eternal security'. The problem with this deduction is that it precludes everything scripture has to say about enduing to the end, continuing in the faith, abiding in Christ & remaining steadfast in the faith.
But they have a rebuttal: 'Yes,' faith without deeds is dead, if a person is 'really' saved he will thereby continue, endure & remain. So we are saying the same thing! Here's where the real deception begins to set in. The Bible tells us plainly that we are to OBEY God, Strive to enter by the Narrow Gate, Keep ourselves in His Grace & endure to the end. (To name a few) (Rom6:16, Matt7:13-14, Luke13:24, Matt10:33, 1Jh5:18) It also teaches that God will Judge those who 'Obey not His Gospel' Rom2:7-10, 2Thess1:8
Again the demons will agree, YES we are commanded to obey the Gospel of Christ, which is to believe on Him who God sent! John3:16 (back to the faith of devils) But the Scriptures have much more to say about 'believing' on Christ which involves OBEDIENCE to His commands.
"For this is the love of God, that we Keep His commandments & His commandments are not burdensome." 1Jh5:3 This truth is stated throughout the Gospel of John and repeated by John numerous times. So you are NOT believing in God unless you are actively Obeying Him. That's what John meant when he said, "If what you heard from the beginning abides in you, you also will abide in the Son!" 1Jh2:24 (abiding in Him means obeying Him!)
The Deception takes on many forms: 2Cor11:13-15
What this doublespeak has done is confuse the issue just enough to delude the human mind into a false sense of security. People can say they believe in Christ and that the Bible is true while at the same time they disobey His Commandments and sin everyday. Further examples:
2) Since no one is perfect, Grace must be God's way of accommodating man in his sin.
Christ said His Yoke is easy and burden light and He died for our sins, therefore the only way man can be happy & at peace with God at the same time, is by accepting the fact that he is forgiven by Grace and no longer has to worry about being perfect. (Rom10:9-10, 13) We confess with our mouth Jesus is Lord & believe in our heart God raised Him from the dead & we're saved! Anyone who calls upon the name of the Lord shall be saved! (sounds biblical enough)
But the end result is people who 'believe for a while' but having no 'root' they quickly fall back into satan's bondage, ensnared by the false notion they can be saved while continuing in sin. Luke8:13, Jh6:66, 8:30 It's the 'sensual' message spoken of in 2Pet2:1-3, they appeal to the flesh nature with great swelling words of emptiness! 2Pet2:18
This is why the Bible doesn't make sense to most professing Christians. They read the passages about holiness, obedience, self-denial and remaining steadfast to the end and can't understand how it applies to them! How could anyone be happy in Christ suffering, baring a cross, or giving up all their worldly possessions? (1Pet4:12-14, Luke14:26-33, Matt19:21)
Therefore the preachers MUST be right. These passages really mean, 'as long as I believe in Jesus and do my best I have nothing to worry about', "So I'll pursue my worldly lifestyle, enjoy my vain amusements and leave all that 'works' stuff to the fanatics." Thus the delusion is complete. The false doctrine become reality in the mind and the conscience is seared with the hot iron of self deception. 1Tim4:1-3 The person becomes a 'hearer' of the Word instead of a 'Doer' Js1:22 and he is deceived into believing himself secure when he is lost! Rev3:17
No wonder so few will Contend for the truth, why bother. It's all been done for us.
Speaking lies in hypocrisy
What makes this false doctrine so popular when it is so easily refuted by scripture? The answer is simple, people want the best of BOTH worlds! They want to indulge the flesh, enjoy the world and still make it to heaven when they die. OSAS is the perfect remedy. It permits carnal behavior, excuses it because of Grace and uses correct Biblical apologetics while doing it!
3) You can sin and NOT die! 2Cor11:3
The perfect deception. If you can convince the human mind that the purpose of Grace was merely to forgive their sins and cover their imperfections, you have unwittingly aligned yourself with satan. His original argument against God's truth in the Garden was exactly that! When the woman repeated God's warning of death for violating the Command not to eat of the tree, what did he say? "Thou shall surly not die! God knows when you eat you will become like Him, knowing good and evil." Gen3:4
In other words: YES Rom8:13 says, "If you live according to the flesh you will die." & Gal6:8, "For he who sows to the flesh will of the flesh reap corruption!" & Eph5:6 "Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of immoral behavior the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience!" BUT it couldn't mean I'll die & go to hell for doing these things. Could it?
The preachers say no. To protect the false doctrine of OSAS they invent something called, 'Carnal Christianity' again basing it loosely on scriptural passages out of 1Cor3:3, 5:5, 6:12 Under it professing Christians can commit random acts of immorality, drunkenness, lust, etc and NOT be considered 'practicing' the sins listed in 1Cor6:9-10, Eph5:5-7. By twisting scripture the false teachers 'imply' that a true child of God walks daily under the bondage of sin and at times these sins may become extremely grievous, but they will never enter into condemnation.
To varying degrees OSAS is taught in the vast majority of Churches around the world. Some teachers are more blatant than others, using grace as license for lawless behavior. Others will suggest that people who return to sins bondage were never saved to begin with. Irrespective of the extreme, BOTH views lead people into error. When a person believes that nothing they do can send them to hell under grace, the flood gates are open to every sort of deceiving spirit satan can conjure. The spiritual safeguards are removed and the shield lowered.
They Believed in Vain! 2Cor15:2
In order to protect the false doctrine of eternal security the OSAS preachers must go into doublespeak overtime. Everything is explained away & means the opposite of what it says!
1) Faith is not substance & evidence, but a vague acknowledgment of Christ, based on the assumption He died for your sins & offers Grace as a gift. YET in itself Faith is defined as a Firm persuasion, based upon a hearing, producing confidence in the truth. No wonder Jesus said that faith the size of a mustard seed can move mountains, Matt17:20, if it's real no sin can withstand it!
2) Grace is presented as a vast scheme of indulgences, as though God feels sorry for you and is willing to just sweep your sins under the rug if you believe. But in Scripture Grace is Power. Christ gave Himself to Redeem us from every lawless deed & Purity for Himself His own special people zealous for good works! Titus2:14 "Those who belong to Christ have crucified the flesh with its passions & desires!" Gal5:24 "For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus beforehand for good works!" Eph2:10 "For sin shall not have dominion over you! Rom6:14
3) Obedience is 'works'. Under OSAS any talk of obeying God is out of the question because it's all been done for you in Christ. In Scripture however, Obedience is the Cornerstone of the faith, which leads to purity of heart, 1Pet1:22, Steadfast endurance, Col1:23, Confidence in the faith, Heb3:14, Freedom from sin, Jh8:31-32, & Victory over the world, 1Jh5:4
4) Sin is inbred so no one can ever be free from its corrupting influence. Therefore since no one is perfect, we all sin everyday and God's Grace keeps us pure. But these are all lies from satan designed to put you back into bondage and led you into hell. Scripture says those born of God have Victory over sin, because Christ purchased the Victory for us! 1Jh3:8, 5:4 Also if we put on the Mind of Christ, we can CEASE from sin in the flesh, 1Pet4:1, And when we OBEY from the heart that form of doctrine to which we are delivered, we are set free from sin & made slaves to righteousness, having fruit to holiness, which ends in eternal life! Rom6:17-18, 22
2Pet1:4 says we have "exceeding great & precious promises that through these we can become Partakers of the Divine Nature having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust!"
Eph4:24 says, "If you put on the new man which was created according to God in righteousness and true holiness, you will be renewed in the spirit of your mind & escape lust."
Col2:12 says, "You were buried with Him in baptism & raised with Him through faith to walk in Newness of life!" Rom6:6
If all this means that a Christian has no choice but to sin everyday, then the Bible is fraudulent! But since it is the Truth of God's Word you have but one choice toward life, OBEY Him and live! Reject the false teachers & their ruinous doctrines, "Awake to Righteous & sin not, some of you do not have the knowledge of God, I speak this to your shame!" 1Cor15:34 www.standingthegap.org

Come into the Light of Christ & the Knowledge of His Glory & Behold the face of God!

Ariel82 · Dec 8, 2012

what do you say to a child who prayed with all their heart for their father to be healed and he died of cancer anyway?

what do you say to a handicapped orphan?

or children HIV positive?

Or elderly dementia patients?

what do you say to the sick and elderly who may be weak in body but are strong in Spirit who pray to God daily not for their physical healing but for the salvation of souls?

Can you stop aging? can you stop people from dying?

Yes God heals without a doubt, but there is more to healing then the physical body and there is more to death then fading away from this world.

why do people seek signs and wonders?

do you think you need to bribe people with candy to follow God? Isn't the truth enough?

lesjude · Dec 8, 2012

The man at the pool was there to receive healing from an occult source, a demonic stirring of the water. Father God does not play mind games like that. Israel had lost the blessing of divine healing as a result of unbelief and apostasy. They were also using sorcery and drugs. The man did not even heed what Jesus told him about sin because as soon as he knew who Jesus was he ratted Him out to the people who wanted to kill Him. Father God knew exactly why this man and the others were at the pool and that the man would betray Jesus. Father sent Jesus to heal him to specifically show His mercy and to call the rest to repentance. How much MORE is Father God willing to heal the bride of Jesus!

No, Jesus only prayed "thy will be done" when He was struggling in His flesh with the agony of going to the cross. He knew God's will as the Son of God but the flesh was struggling.
This is a far cry for the Bride of Christ coming in childlike assurance of faith knowing God's will to ask and receive healing, forgiveness of sin, daily provision, or any other positive promise of Father God.
Christians will have the same type of struggle when the Holy Spirit deals with the death of the self life. It can be VERY painful to deal with the things Jesus says are required of disciples:
Luke 14:25-27New King James Version (NKJV)

25 Now great multitudes went with Him. And He turned and said to them, 26 “If anyone comes to Me and does not hate his father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters, yes, and his own life also, he cannot be My disciple. 27 And whoever does not bear his cross and come after Me cannot be My disciple.

Examples of our death to self on our "cross":

A spouse giving an ultimatum Jesus or me.
Leaving a secure well paying job because it does not fit in the Kingdom of God.
Leaving behind affection for all materialism.
Compromising or not to please children or family.
Giving up our rights to sue, protest, petition, etc for the sake of demonstrating the Kingdom of heaven to others.
Taking a stand against idols like Daniel, Shadrack, Meshack, and Abed-Nego did or compromising.
Disciplining our thought patterns or not i.e. Matthew 6:25.
Curbing our flesh on popular entertainment and culture.
Taking an unpopular stand on the principles of Christian behavior like swearing an oath, military service, jury duty, retaliation for wrongs, anonymous giving
Avoiding persecution as a Christian at all costs or REJOICING when it happens.

35 years of healing while raising7 children to adulthood with no use EVER of the medical system is our testimony. It is normal Christianity. Most of the healings were just that, not instant miracles. We do answer to the Father by meeting His conditions one of which is coming in FULL assurance in child like faith to receive what His word clearly promises.

Ariel82 · Dec 8, 2012

when people resort to reposting large bulks of text they have already posted

I think its time for me to exit the thread....

lesjude · Dec 8, 2012

Ariel82 said:

It does seem that most do not read it or need to read it more than once.

TheMachine · Dec 8, 2012

LesJude said:
"No, Jesus only prayed "thy will be done" when He was struggling in His flesh with the agony of going to the cross. He knew God's will as the Son of God but the flesh was struggling.
This is a far cry for the Bride of Christ coming in childlike assurance of faith knowing God's will to ask and receive healing, forgiveness of sin, daily provision, or any other positive promise of Father God.
Christians will have the same type of struggle when the Holy Spirit deals with the death of the self life. It can be VERY painful to deal with the things Jesus says are required of disciples:"

Scripture says:
But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking. 8Be not ye therefore like unto them: for your Father knoweth what things ye have need of, before ye ask him.

9After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. 10Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven.

I would like to point out that at no time during this instruction is Jesus "struggling in the flesh". Not only is this NOT a far cry as was stated by LesJude, it is a direction by Christ to His Bride on how to approach the Father in prayer!!!!There is a clear cut direction, so I am not calling God a liar, nor am I a liar, scripture and Jesus are quite clear on this issue.....you can try and Copeland your way around this issue but for you to deny that Christ said this is heresy.

So if we pray "thy will be done" we are putting the direction and decision in His hands not our own.

Ok so for clarity....

Christ says Take this cup, but let thy will be done..... The God-Man then recieves the full cup, and your response is that He is struggling in the flesh.

We today as believers pray heal me, let thy will be done.....The God and Father of all creation who didn't remove the cup from His ONLY BEGOTTEN SON, GOD IN THE FLESH...then says you are healed of all ailments as the Bride who comes with child like assurance???? Your theory eats itself here...

We need God he doesn't need us....the Glory is His.
I apologize for my harsh tone on this matter but I take this seriously and find it offensive to the many that I have seen not healed, yet believed.

21Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

Again Thy will be done.

To witness and be a part of Gods healing....again is awesome!

It is also amazing to witness what God can do with a believer who dies an otherwise aweful death with the grace and understanding that only He can provide. How many have come to the Father through watching anothers Grace filled suffering.....

I have witnessed this and it was truly miraculous.

17 For our light affliction, which is but for a moment, worketh for us a far more exceeding and eternal weight of glory;
18 While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal.

The Machine

Every man dies, but not every man really lives. –Braveheart

Red33 · Dec 8, 2012

Ariel82 said:

All the Lord's healings had to do with the body and that included demonic spirits that possessed the body. Read them all and see just how good the Lord is and stop trying to spiritualize the divine nature of the Great Physician and stop trying to reduce faith in Him who is the resurrection and the life. Do you know why that some will depart from the faith and forget that they were purged from their sins, because they will stop believing it to be so. Many have stopped believing that Jesus Christ is the resurrection and the life because they have prayed and not received what they have asked for. Jesus said that if you abide in me and my words abide in you, you shall ask what you will and it will be done unto you (Jn 15:7). Is that a promise from God that Jesus Christ will not fulfill? Can we trust His promises or do we rationalize them away with doubt, skepticism and unbelief and lose faith in Him as one who is faithful to what He has promised?

Ariel82 · Dec 8, 2012

I would respond to you Red if you actually answered a single question I asked or made a single true accusation of what i have done or believe.

hopesprings · Dec 9, 2012

Red33 said:

I think the problem lies in the fact that God didn't promise us physical perfection, while here on earth. He didn't promise that He would ALWAYS heal us of our sicknesses. It is not a question of doubting God's promises, it is a question of whether he actually promised it in the first place. We cannot demand things of God. Didn't He say that only if we ask according to His will, will we recieve what we ask for? It is presumptuous to say that His will is to ALWAYS heal us physically, in this life. Please answer Ariel's questions.

psychomom · Dec 9, 2012

Red33 said:

What shall I say to these two people:

I know a woman who, when she was in her thirties exited the church for years for this reason---
her dad had cancer. She was told if she prayed in all faith, believing God would heal him, He would.
She did this...at least, she had the honesty to ask, too, 'Lord, I believe! Help my unbelief!" She prayed fervently for months, right up to the day he died.
She was condemned by the same people who told her to pray, and insisted he would be made well. It was HER faith that was just about shipwrecked when those people told her her dad would still be alive if she had only believed.

We have good friends who had a daughter born with Trisomy 18. (if you're not familiar with that, Trisomy 21 is commonly called Downs Syndrome. The lower the number of the chromosome, the more drastic the physical anomalies.)
Olivia had two holes in her heart, along with other catastrophic problems.
I have never seen a mom and dad fight harder to keep their child alive, both in the natural and in the spiritual.
Have you ever seen a tiny pink coffin being laid in the ground?
That mom, my friend Anna, couldn't even go to church for a year. They attended the same charismatic church we did. They believed God would heal their little girl, who lived for four months, which even the docs were amazed by, since they had said she might live 4 weeks...was that their miracle, Red, that their daughter struggled to breathe for 4 months, and hey, they got an extra 3 months out of it, right?

So, do we tell these parents that their child would have lived, but there must have been someone praying who didn't r-e-a-l-l-y expect God to heal Olivia?
Shall I tell my own sister her son wouldn't have frozen to death, alone and weeping for his momma because someone didn't believe with their whole heart??
Do I tell these ones I love that the Lord took their children, punishing them for someone else's lack of faith?
Did they not properly discern whose faith was lacking, and kick them out?

How shall these bereft parents, and that daughter, be answered?

Shall we remove the peace the Lord gave them that His will was done, and that He loves them just as much as he ever did?
Or will we condemn them for their lack of faith, or for not doing things right?
How will I answer, that my children were made well? Am I just more righteous? (a clearly ridiculous idea....)
Will I say I had more, purer faith than theirs?

You know, I think it must be easier for poeple who have never been blessed with tragedy of those proportions to sit back and judge those who have.
And if you've ever buried one of your children, I apologize.

psychomom · Dec 9, 2012

You know what...you don't need to answer.

My heart is broken enough already.

psychomom · Dec 9, 2012

I left here to go to the prayer forum, and this was the first thing posted:

I would appreciate prayers for my family.. I'm at a loss for words for describing the pain of losing a family member.. We've known for months he would pass away at birth but the pain of meeting him for the first time and saying good bye is unbelievable. He was diagnosed with Potters Syndrome in the 18th week of pregnancy and was due Jan 2013. He was born last night and went to be with Jesus shortly after birth. God is giving us Grace to deal with this. Our only comfort is knowing he is safe in the arms of Jesus. The funeral is on Monday and if you've ever lost someone you love you know how hard that day is. Again, I ask for prayers especially for his parents and big brothers but also for the rest of the family.

lesjude...Red...do you want to pray for this family?
Do you want to give them your answers as to why this happened to them, and not to you?
Please, explain to them just what they did wrong in the Lord's sight, so this won't happen to them again, by all means.
Please tell them why this child had this illness, and why their prayers weren't enough, and what they did wrong in the first place, to make this happen to their little one.

I'm out.

zone · Dec 9, 2012

i love you ellie.

my sister ellie has left this thread and this is good that she has done so.

only the devil could devise and tempt men to claim such a corruption of Who God Is, and hurt His people this way.
but what they mean for evil, ellie's God will turn to her good - her testimony is neverending proof.

psychomom said:

for those who listened to a false teaching (from satan) about Jesus sending 'people lacking faith' out of the house so HE, JESUS, GOD could raise the girl from death:

the jews had taken to hiring professional mourners to wail and tear their clothing and make a scene at the death someone thinking this would somehow move God or help in some absurd way.

for those who know the truth of Who God is and are struggling with physical problems (like me) - don't listen to these people - they don't know what faith is for.

Red33 · Dec 9, 2012

psychomom said:

These things are not said to break anyones heart but rather to see who our Lord is. Have you thought that the same goes for me as well? This does replace the fact that many are still sick and have physical ailments nor it is said to tell people they are still sick because they do not have enough faith. It is a very sensitive issue and it is not my place or your place to tell anybody that they will be healed if they believe. That is God's place and it has to come from His word when He passes by. I have been in the same boat as you have been with family and loved ones and dear friends including my pastor-teacher as well. We have all prayed for 100'd of people with physical afflictions who continue in their afflictions and it is not because of unbelief, perhaps some but not all. Are these instances in the scripture trustworthy and is what the Lord said full of grace and truth and can we depend upon His promises?

Someone said that the Lord has never promised to physically heal anyone, does that mean that we stop trusting Him and believing that all things are possible, only believe? I do not for one minute think that healing is based upon who God choices to heal and who He does not and then rationalize it away by saying that he must have a purpose for not healing me. To me that reveals a heart of doubt and unbelief from the moment one has prayed or been prayed for. When Jesus passes by that is when we have to be there to believe, even by proxy. Every place in the gospels people were being healed when Jesus passed by and there were times when He could not do any works because of unbelief.

Mary and Martha were upset when Jesus took so long to respond to their request and actually blamed Him for the death of their brother Lazarus. The people were weeping and saw Jesus weep and thought how He must have loved Lazarus. The Lord was weeping at their unbelief of Him, perhaps their unbelief broke His heart. He had come at their request and He was the resurrection and the life and He raised Lazarus from the dead with His word. Is someone going to be critical of me for saying these things and tell me that I don't understand what the Lord did when He passed by?

Read the story in (John 11) and see what the Spirit will minister and show you concerning the Lord as the resurrection and the life. Yes, Jesus is everywhere present but where is it that He abides as the head of the church? When the sick were brought to the place the Lord was at, how did that effect the Lord? Was He moved with compassion or was He passive and indifferent and thought to Himself, 'What do they expect from me'? 'What can I do'. They came to Him because they knew what He could do and some of them among the multitudes had come to Him several times before He had compassion on them and healed them. What are we to think of that? For (38) yrs a lame man with an infirmity went to that pool of Bethesda in (Jn 5) for the stirring of the water to be healed and it was not until the Lord passed by that this man and was told to take up his bed and walk. What are we to think of this, that Jesus took (38) years to heal this man or was there an underlining issue in this man's heart that was confronted by the Lord later on in (Jn 5:14).

Why do we have to be so naturally minded about these things that we have recorded in the scriptures. Of course we don't tell others that unbelief stopped God from healing their daughter. However, when the blind man cried out to the Lord and the disciples asked what sin he or his parents had committed as the cause of his blindness He said that neither had sinned. In that case neither had sinned but is it a possibility that these kinds of infirmities could also be a result of some form of sin, if not, then why did Jesus seek out and confront the lame man and tell him this in (Jn 5;14)...

14 Afterward Jesus findeth him in the temple, and said unto him, Behold, thou art made whole: sin no more, lest a worse thing come unto thee.

You tell me if you have an answer, but I do get an inference from it and the lame man that was made whole (which probably included being forgiven of his sins) had sin in his life that attributed to either his infirmity or from being healed of it, until Jesus passed by.

zone · Dec 9, 2012

lesjude said:

i've read it many times...it's still satanic.

Only Believe (and stop the negative)

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