Christian Truth or Antichrist Deception?

[Elin]

All came to pass at the time of Joshua. Since then the Lord spoke to Israel further words through her prophets some of which remains to be fulfilled.

example: For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land. Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you. A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them. And ye shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; and ye shall be my people, and I will be your God.
(Eze 36:24-28)

perhaps a partial but not a complete fulfillment has a happened so far.

About 130 years after his prophecies, Eze 36:24 came to pass in their return from the Babylonian exile recorded in Ezra and Nehemiah, where

Eze 40-48 then came to pass when
the Temple was rebuilt, dedicated, and worship revived,
the wall was rebuilt,
exiles returned, and where

Eze 36:25-28 came to pass when
revival broke out,
they rededicated themselves to the Law (Scriptures),
and the rejoicing in Jerusalem could be heard miles away (Ne 12:43).

So the land promise was completely fulfilled under Joshua, and Eze 36:24-28 was completely fulfilled under Ezra and Nehemiah.

The promise remaining is to be grafted back into the one olive tree, which is the one people of God,
if they do not persist in unbelief (Ro 11:23).

 

[Crossfire]

The deception is not understanding the role and goal of Islamic terrorists in the world today.

I would agree that is a big part of it. I honestly think that we are headed toward a "all paths lead to the same God" one world religion where the Vatican attempts to play peace maker between moderate Muslims and moderate Jews. Of course such a religion will never bring peace due to the various "radical" movements within each major religious sector.

Although, I believe it's obvious for all to see that Islam is the main aggressor and not the Jew thus it will be Islam who attempts to overthrow this one world religion. Will orthodox Jews play, a role? Absolutely. However, Antisemitism is clearly on the rise once again, especially in Europe which will only lead to more Jews retreating to Israel thus causing even more dissension in the Middle East.

 

[zone]

The promise remaining is to be grafted back into the one olive tree, which is the one people of God,
if they do not persist in unbelief (Ro 11:23).

that happens in what is called TODAY, or it doesn't happen at all.
there's no magic veil to be pulled off of people in the State of Israel sometime in the future.

that's just dispensationalism and it's false.

all people no matter how they identify - muslim jew agnostic...all the same.
repent as individuals or perish.

all fulfilled.

 

[zone]

The deception is not understanding the role and goal of Islamic terrorists in the world today.

Elin.
i'm not really in a PC frame of mind today.
do some homework on the Muslim Brotherhood.
find out who the Shriners are and what they do.
find out who is behind the Arab Spring.
look into history.
find out what Judaism is.
read Galatians 4 - paul meant it then and it's true today.
ok?

 

[zone]

I believe it's obvious for all to see that Islam is the main aggressor and not the Jew thus

control the media, you control perception.
print Scofield Bibles you control american evangelicalism.
be willing to perform lying signs and wonders on September 11th and blame it on Arabs.
oh ya. Islam had a lot to gain by pulling 9-11.

 

[Elin]

Hebrews 11:8-9 Abraham knew what the real land was.

[SUP]8 [/SUP]By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.
[SUP]9 [/SUP]By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise:
[SUP]10 [/SUP]For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God.

"They were looking for a better country (than Canaan)--a heavenly one." (Heb 11:16)
The real land they were looking for was a heavenly city in the heavenly land.
They were not looking for earthly land, for neither Abraham, Isaac nor Jacob received a foot of ground
in fulfillment of God's promise of an everlasting land.

Which was:
Hebrews 12:22-22
[SUP]22 [/SUP]But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,
[SUP]23 [/SUP]To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,

It might be helpful here to clarify some things regarding the relationship of the following Scriptures.

Hebrews is addressed to Jewish Christians, but Heb 12:22-24 is not related to Heb 11:8-9.
Hebrews 11:8-9 deals with the land promise and God's fulfillment of it to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob in a heavenly land, rather than in earthly land.


Heb 12:23-24 describe the NT church to which the Jewish Christians have come.
It includes angels, spirits of OT believers, and a new covenant made in the blood of Christ, its mediator.

"You have come to thousands upon thousands of angels in joyful assembly,
to the church of the firstborn (the redeemed, as in Ex 12, 13; Nu 3, 8, 18) whose names are written in heaven,
to God the judge of all men,
to the spirits of righteous men made perfect (OT believers whose atonement is now completed, in Christ),
to Jesus the mediator of a new covenant, and
to the sprinkled blood that speaks a better word than the blood of Abel [which spoke (cried out) in an unending plea, Ge 4:10]."
(Heb 12:22-24)

Heb 12:22-24 is not the land spoken of in Heb 11:8-9. The two are not connected.
Heb 11:8-9 is the heavenly land for which the patriarchs hoped, while
Heb 12:22-24 is a description of the NT Church to which Jewish Christians have come.

Here they all came back and received a new heart and new spirit on Pentecost.

Acts 2:[SUP]5 [/SUP]And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven.[SUP]6 [/SUP]Now when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speak in his own language.
[SUP]7 [/SUP]And they were all amazed and marvelled, saying one to another, Behold, are not all these which speak Galilaeans?
[SUP]8 [/SUP]And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born?
[SUP]9 [/SUP]Parthians, and Medes, and Elamites, and the dwellers in Mesopotamia, and in Judaea, and Cappadocia, in Pontus, and Asia,
[SUP]10 [/SUP]Phrygia, and Pamphylia, in Egypt, and in the parts of Libya about Cyrene, and strangers of Rome, Jews and proselytes,
[SUP]11 [/SUP]Cretes and Arabians, we do hear them speak in our tongues the wonderful works of God.

Actually, the Jews were in Jerusalem for the Feast of Weeks, one of three feasts at Jerusalem which all males were required to attend.

They came from far and near ("every nation under heaven") in obedience to the Law which required them to attend.

"Those who accepted Peter's message (about 3,000) were baptized" (Ac 2:41) and received the Holy Spirit.

The rest of the Jews did not.

Ac 2:5-11 is not related to Heb 12:22-24.
Ac 2:5-11 is about the number of Jews converted by Peter's sermon, while
Heb 12:22-24 is a description of the NT Church to which Jewish Christians have come.

Hebrews 8:9-10 fulfillment Eze:24-28

[SUP]9 [/SUP]Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.
[SUP]10 [/SUP]For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:

Well, actually, Heb 8:9-10 states that it is a fulfillment of Jer 31:31-34, rather than Eze 36:24-28.

Eze 36:24-28 does not speak of a new covenant, as does Heb 8:6-13 in its reference to Jer 31:31-34 promising a new covenant.

Heb 8:9-10 is not the fulfillment of Eze 36:24-28, which was fulfilled under Ezra and Nehemiah.

So the above Scriptures are related somewhat differently here.

 

[zone]

All came to pass at the time of Joshua. Since then the Lord spoke to Israel further words through her prophets some of which remains to be fulfilled.

example: For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land. Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you. A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them. And ye shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; and ye shall be my people, and I will be your God.
(Eze 36:24-28)

perhaps a partial but not a complete fulfillment has a happened so far.

hi my dispy lutheran brother.
that was a prophecy of Pentecost.
the dry bones came to life.
those who didn't perished in 70AD.
those who never returned from captivity because they preferred Babylon still do.

and then we have people who just don't adhere to any of it.
many of them have found Jesus.
my best friend is one of them

no matter, it's all the same. ONE WAY.
No Plan B.

Christ fulfilled all things written.

 

[zone]

QUESTION:

as christians, what right or call do we have to make alliances or enemies of muslims or jews?
is there some good reason given we are to kill one and protect another?
can anyone show that to me in Scripture?

what is the Great Commission?

 

[Elin]

The bible said to have two or more eyewitnesses.
People today sound like parrots, what they heard from the pulpit or
the media. Thats not what God had in mind.
So in a way your deceiving yourself.

There is no lack of witnesses.

 

[Elin]

I would agree that is a big part of it. I honestly think that we are headed toward a "all paths lead to the same God" one world religion where the Vatican attempts to play peace maker between moderate Muslims and moderate Jews. Of course such a religion will never bring peace due to the various "radical" movements within each major religious sector.

Although, I believe it's obvious for all to see that Islam is the main aggressor and not the Jew thus it will be Islam who attempts to overthrow this one world religion. Will orthodox Jews play, a role? Absolutely. However, Antisemitism is clearly on the rise once again, especially in Europe which will only lead to more Jews retreating to Israel thus causing even more dissension in the Middle East.

I can't see the true church remnant in America ever buying into that.

 

[RachelBibleStudent]

According to what laws? International law? The U.S. Constitution? The Bible?

according to the laws passed by congress authorizing the military to act

 

[Elin]

that happens in what is called TODAY, or it doesn't happen at all.
there's no magic veil to be pulled off of people in the State of Israel sometime in the future.

that's just dispensationalism and it's false.

all people no matter how they identify - muslim jew agnostic...all the same.
repent as individuals or perish.

Agreed on that.

 

[Elin]

Elin.
i'm not really in a PC frame of mind today.
do some homework on the Muslim Brotherhood.
find out who the Shriners are and what they do.
find out who is behind the Arab Spring.
look into history.
find out what Judaism is.
read Galatians 4 - paul meant it then and it's true today.
ok?

Not sure I follow you.

I agree with Paul that the slave woman's son will never share in the inheritance with the free woman's son.

And Christians are not children of the slave woman, but of the free woman.

No argument there.

 

[Elin]

QUESTION:

as christians, what right or call do we have to make alliances or enemies of muslims or jews?
is there some good reason given we are to kill one and protect another?
can anyone show that to me in Scripture?

Nope, our job is to protect ourselves from our enemies, and in the modern world that requires pro-active, because re-active is too late.

 

[RachelBibleStudent]

oh please stop.
you've had well over a decade to learn the truth of 9-11.
this is unconscionable.
please do not slander billions of muslims.
they're already suffering as a result of being framed for 911.

most of us who don't buy into the 9/11 conspiracy theories have looked at the arguments and found them to be totally unconvincing...

now don't bother to start copying and pasting stuff...i have seen it all before... from misunderstandings about how steel behaves under heat...to people finding ground up aluminum and rust in the footprint of a collapsed skyscraper and calling it 'thermite'...to people arguing that building seven being blasted by tons of burning shrapnel should not have caused it to collapse...to misunderstanding what 'pulling' means in demolition terminology...to a silly old woman with a grudge turning in some israelis because through her binoculars she thought they might have been laughing...to unsubstantiated claims from washed up former low level intelligence translators turned professional complainants...to misconceptions about the architecture of the twin towers...

over a decade and still the 9/11 conspiracy theorists have produced no convincing evidence...nothing but misinformed gobbledygook...

 

[crossnote]

QUESTION:

as christians, what right or call do we have to make alliances or enemies of muslims or jews?
is there some good reason given we are to kill one and protect another?
can anyone show that to me in Scripture?

what is the Great Commission?

A Jew is still a Jew when he receives his long promised Messiah but a Muslim must renounce the false teachings of Islam when he becomes a Christian.
True though as Christians we are not to be unequally yoked with non believers.

 

[zone]

that's okay rachel.
some of us will never agree.
at least not until down the road.
i'm okay with that.
i have no intention of wasting anybody's time (including my own) on it any longer, re: pasting and downloading tons of anything.
everyone decides.

19 muslims from caves conspiring to pull off 9-11 is a conspiracy theory.

we all decide what to believe.
we're all still free to discuss it at this time i hope
zone

 

[RachelBibleStudent]

Ten years ago, I would have opposed all of this. Ten years ago, I was a dispensationalist ... and believed that the Israel of God was a strip of land in the middle east. None will learn who aren't willing to consider.

well i am -not- a dispensationalist and i have never been... and i -don't- believe that God's plan is all about a bit of land in the middle east and i never have...

the reason i am not in agreement with you on the rest is because 'the modern state of israel is lex luthor' does not follow from 'jews do not have a God given right to the land'

unfortunately it seems that most 'former dispensationalists' are still stuck in the futurist paradigm...they have just shuffled futurism's eschatological players around a bit...

 

[zone]

A Jew is still a Jew when he receives his long promised Messiah but a Muslim must renounce the false teachings of Islam when he becomes a Christian.
True though as Christians we are not to be unequally yoked with non believers.

crossnote.
most jews don't believe in any messiah. including those in judaism (which is not remotely close to moses & prophets) - it's another religion altogether.

the long promised messiah came.
those who received Him received the promise.

any who didn't are just like muslims or anyone else. TODAY is the day of salvation.

there are no loose ends or Plan Bs in the wings.

Judaism is a religion. there is no evidence people adhereing to Judaism are ancient Israelites.
no proof of any kind. they may or may not be. but there is no promise for children of the flesh.

the only way to possibly know is what do they profess.
here is a possible exception:

Karaite Judaism or Karaism 1] is a Jewish movement characterized by the recognition of the Tanakh (Hebrew Bible) alone as its supreme legal authority
wiki.

even that will do no good if they don't see Jesus through Moses and the prophets.

there is no outstanding promise to be fulfilled other than what anyone may receive through the Gospel we preach, in our duties under the Great Commission.

 

[zone]

Nope, our job is to protect ourselves from our enemies, and in the modern world that requires pro-active, because re-active is too late.

who are our enemies?

until recently we were friendly with arabs.
what happened?

are we suggesting things like Iran wants to blow up the world, so we have to hit them first?
the latest out on that is no nuke program.
if they develop one now who would blame them really?
threatened and sanctioned and the nations around them falling in the George Soros Arab Spring?

just like Iraq.
no WMD.
now a wasteland with the world's largest military base of operations.

what are we doing over there?

why are we guarding poppy fields?

and now Syria. oddly, those 3 nations christians had some freedom and safety.
not anymore.