homosexuality

[KCKID]

It's just so beyond me... how is it even debatable as to whether or not homosexuality is a sin? It's there in black and white all over the bible!

This is most annoying since Christians use this exaggeration (lie?) constantly. Reference to homosexuality, a word not actually used in the original texts anyway, is NOT 'there in black and white all over the Bible!' At MOST ...ambiguous references to homosexuality are found in roughly SIX places in the ENTIRE Bible!

Why does this topic keep cropping up,

It keeps cropping up because people are being adversely affected by Christians, many of whom don't know what they are talking about to begin with, who continually refer to this group of people as 'condemned'. Is that a good enough reason to keep bringing up the topic?

when it's so obvious it's a sin?

If you can prove to me that you don't sin then I will listen to whatever you have to say. Until then you are no less a sinner than those others to which you refer. True?

Stop twisting the word of God, and trying to to justify something which is blatantly against Gods wishes.

Do you comply to the more than 613 of 'God's wishes' in the Bible, Matthew, or do you blatantly ignore them? Some of them involve the stoning to death of disobedient children, those who profane the Sabbath (that's MOST mainstream Christians, by the way), etc. etc. Basically, behaving like a human being is 'a sin' to a perfect God.

 

[KCKID]

I thought the old testament doesn't count anymore.

Just the Leviticus 'man lying' part it would seem . . .

 

[KCKID]

Would we still have this notion of "sin" and the importance placed upon it if the Bible didn't mention it?

Yep. Because human beings feel the need to discriminate against others ...usually those that don't think, believe, look like or act like them. We then read the Bible and find that God hates the very same things about people that we hate.

 

[KCKID]

Actually in Leviticus 18:22
"Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination."

It could mean "lie" as in not telling the truth.

No, it IS referring to homosexual sex in some form or another. However, while that text is ambiguous, as in our not really knowing what it is precisely referring to, it is probably referencing temple prostitution and is most certainly a part of the Levitical Holiness Code. Unless we have Levitical priests running around today this text is meaningless for we of today. Interestingly, Christians ignore EVERY OTHER part of the Holiness Code except that one!

 

[KCKID]

GodBible - Read Romans chapter 1 on this subject matter - and try to interpret it any other way - the Epistles were written to the saints and are there to tell us how to live for God TODAY - this is a slam dunk - unless you want to live the lifestyle and defend it -

Before I add my review of Romans Chapter 1 could I ask that YOU explain this chapter in precise and concise English so that we have no doubt as to what it's talking about? After all, you DID bring it up.

Thank you.

 

[KCKID]

The bible mentions homosexuality and condemns it.

Romans 1:26-32
26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.
28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;
29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,
30 Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,
31 Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:
32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

1 Cor 6:9-11
9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

1 Tim 1:10 For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;

In other words ...we are ALL goners including starfield. Right, starfield?

Why is it that in presenting cherished scriptures that appear to condemn those that we want to condemn we finish up condemning ourselves . . .?

 

[GodBible]

Please see post #76. Can anyone provide a good answer for that?

 

[KCKID]

It's totally irrelevant how I feel. Tell me why you are here instead. Attack christians who believe what the Bible says? Or just trolling?

Christians should be able to respond to the scrutiny of others pertaining to their beliefs without the need to get defensive.

 

[KCKID]

Naut...pssst....christians don't disagree with the Bible.

But the majority simply DON'T KNOW what their Bible actually says. They rely on the church pastor to explain it to them ...sorta like when a TV political commentator has to explain to the viewer what a politician just said. You're giving the average Christian too much credit, zone.

 

[Elizabeth619]

Christians should be able to respond to the scrutiny of others pertaining to their beliefs without the need to get defensive.

The fact that your profile says you are a Christian I am a little puzzled as to why you are scrutinizing fellow Christians.

Prov 18:2

A fool takes no pleasure in understanding, but only in expressing his opinion.

 

[jimmydiggs]

Ok, how about lie as in to lay down horizontally. No sex act is specifically mentioned.

Again, that is a vocabulary fail.

Just like when someone says, "Billy sleeps around." Is he really a bed-surfer?

 

[KCKID]

Sure would. Whether God decided to reveal it to us or not, the law would still be upon our hearts.

Does that not also include executing disobedient children, raping and pillaging our enemies, i.e. those who don't share our religious beliefs, etc.? Were these commands of God ever revoked or are they, as you say, still upon our hearts?

 

[jimmydiggs]

Why does homosexuality get singled out and all these other things get a free pass?

... and folks, this here is the danger of dispensationalism.

The Law, is not the Old Testament.

 

[jimmydiggs]

Does that not also include executing disobedient children, raping and pillaging our enemies, i.e. those who don't share our religious beliefs, etc.? Were these commands of God ever revoked or are they, as you say, still upon our hearts?

I think the better question is: Why do you treat what God commanded of the Israelites, as though it is wrong?

Again, folks, KCKID demonstrates to us the danger of dispensationalism and declaring the OT as Law, and the NT as Gospel. That whole "Law vs. Grace" garbage.

 

[Grandpa]

In other words ...we are ALL goners including starfield. Right, starfield?

Why is it that in presenting cherished scriptures that appear to condemn those that we want to condemn we finish up condemning ourselves . . .?

Well you're on the right track. We All are goners. We have all, without exception, followed the lust of the flesh. We have all fallen short of perfection.

Now what?

2 Choices. Follow the crowd and just stop "discriminating" against other sinners and close your eyes to all of it. Intellectualize it all away...

Or...

Find a way to stop being a disgusting, selfish, self centered, evil, wicked, person.

It's probably easier to justify your sin in your own mind than try and do anything about it...

 

[KCKID]

The fact that your profile says you are a Christian I am a little puzzled as to why you are scrutinizing fellow Christians.

Why would you be puzzled because I disagree with anyone who takes the Gospel message of Jesus and makes it into a mud-slinging hate fest? I welcome scrutiny of my beliefs that have matured with me over many years. These days I'm hard pressed setting foot in a mainstream Christian Church because they - for the most part - have lost sight of the Gospel message. If the word 'sin' was removed from the Christian vocabulary many (most?) would be rubbing their chins wondering what to do next. It would not occur to them to "do these things for the least of my brethren and you therefore do it unto me." A Christian is a Christ-follower ...not a Paul-follower, though, to his credit, Paul wrote some very profound and meaningful epistles. That he's been so misinterpreted by those who would rather look for texts of condemnation from Paul is not the fault of Paul. That said, Paul is NOT Jesus.

Prov 18:2

A fool takes no pleasure in understanding, but only in expressing his opinion.

What an apt scripture to add to my above views about much of mainstream Christianity.

 

[GodBible]

The fact that your profile says you are a Christian I am a little puzzled as to why you are scrutinizing fellow Christians.

Prov 18:2

A fool takes no pleasure in understanding, but only in expressing his opinion.

[h=3]1 Peter 3:15[/h] But in your hearts honor Christ the Lord as holy, always being prepared to make a defense to anyone who asks you for a reason for the hope that is in you; yet do it with gentleness and respect,

 

[GodBible]

... and folks, this here is the danger of dispensationalism.

The Law, is not the Old Testament.​

“For truly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass the law until all is accomplished. Whoever then relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but he who does them and teaches them shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.” (Matthew 5:18-19 RSV) Clearly the Old Testament is to be abided by until the end of human existence itself. None other then Jesus said so.

All of the vicious Old Testament laws will be binding forever. "It is easier for Heaven and Earth to pass away than for the smallest part of the letter of the law to become invalid." (Luke 16:17 NAB)

Jesus strongly approves of the law and the prophets. He hasn’t the slightest objection to the cruelties of the Old Testament. "Do not think that I have come to abolish the law or the prophets. I have come not to abolish but to fulfill. Amen, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest part or the smallest part of a letter will pass from the law, until all things have taken place." (Matthew 5:17 NAB)

"All scripture is inspired by God and is useful for teaching, for refutation, for correction, and for training in righteousness..." (2 Timothy 3:16 NAB)

"Know this first of all, that there is no prophecy of scripture that is a matter of personal interpretation, for no prophecy ever came through human will; but rather human beings moved by the holy Spirit spoke under the influence of God." (2 Peter 20-21 NAB)

Jesus criticizes the Jews for not killing their disobedient children according to Old Testament law. Mark.7:9-13 "Whoever curses father or mother shall die" (Mark 7:10 NAB)

Jesus is criticized by the Pharisees for not washing his hands before eating. He defends himself by attacking them for not killing disobedient children according to the commandment: “He that curseth father or mother, let him die the death.” (Matthew 15:4-7)

Jesus has a punishment even worse than his father concerning adultery: God said the act of adultery was punishable by death. Jesus says looking with lust is the same thing and you should gouge your eye out, better a part, than the whole. The punishment under Jesus is an eternity in Hell. (Matthew 5:27)

Peter says that all slaves should “be subject to [their] masters with all fear,” to the bad and cruel as well as the “good and gentle.” This is merely an echo of the same slavery commands in the Old Testament. 1 Peter 2:18

“Did not Moses give you the law, and yet none of you keepeth the law" (John7:19) and “For the law was given by Moses,..." (John 1:17).

“...the scripture cannot be broken.” --Jesus Christ, John 10:35

Again, still no good answer to post #76. The only option is that some people are just prejudiced against homosexuality and use the bible to affirm their position. However, clearly there are other things mentioned
in the OT that no one adheres to anymore - see post #76.

The bible is either all God's word or none of it is. You can't just cherry pick the good things and ignore the bad.

Anything else?​

 

[Elizabeth619]

Why would you be puzzled because I disagree with anyone who takes the Gospel message of Jesus

and makes it into a mud-slinging hate fest? I welcome scrutiny of my beliefs that have matured with me over many years. These days I'm hard pressed setting foot in a mainstream Christian Church because they - for the most part - have lost sight of the Gospel message. If the word 'sin' was removed from the Christian vocabulary many (most?) would be rubbing their chins wondering what to do next. It would not occur to them to "do these things for the least of my brethren and you therefore do it unto me." A Christian is a Christ-follower ...not a Paul-follower, though, to his credit, Paul wrote some very profound and meaningful epistles. That he's been so misinterpreted by those who would rather look for texts of condemnation from Paul is not the fault of Paul. That said, Paul is NOT Jesus

.

I actually stated earlier in the thread that it seems that many do not understand what makes homosexuality an abomination. That "God said so" is not an answer. So I will agree with you that many people do misinterpret the scriptures for various reasons. Pretty good explanation as to why we have so many different denominations when God isn't too keen on division within the church. Yet everyones path is different. It should always lead to the same place, but things that may be my weaknesses are probably not your weaknesses and vice versa. We all have a personal relationship with the Lord, and we should all pray that he gives us understanding so we can help ourselves and others.

I have also heard your argument before from other in the past regarding Paul. Listening to the words of Paul is not following him. Paul was a great teacher to the early church and like the other apostles he was given authority through Christ to preach his word. Therefore when he spoke of certain sins he was given authority by the higher power to do so. We do not refrain from these sins because Paul said to, but because Jesus did.
"For I would have you know, brethren, that the gospel which was preached by me is not according to man. 12For I neither received it from man, nor was I taught it, but I received it through a revelation of Jesus Christ (Gal. 1:11-12).

 

[Elizabeth619]

1 Peter 3:15

But in your hearts honor Christ the Lord as holy, always being prepared to make a defense to anyone who asks you for a reason for the hope that is in you; yet do it with gentleness and respect,

AWESOME verse. I like the gentleness and respect part too.