Sovereignty of God and Moral Responsibility of Man

[zone]

don't fall for the trap bro. just walk away..lol

you call an Arian your bro?

 

[mark54]

don't fall for the trap bro. just walk away..lol

I know you are right EG. Peopel who think they have more knowledge than Christ as to the requirement of belief unto salvation must be lost in a world of ego and blindness

 

[eternally-gratefull]

It's a resurrection from death to life. What "part" has a recipient of such to fulfill?

the recipiant has no part to fulfill. Jesus did it all. He is offering the recipiant the gift. He is not going to force his gift down the recipients throat though, the recipient must take it.

No one would take it unless they have faith it is worth taking. but even if they take it. they did not do anything to earn ,or receive it. It was theirs for the taking.

Many people are given gifts which they never receive, yet it is still theirs.. if they go throughout eternity having never revcieved it. it is not the offerers fault they did not take it, it is the recipients fault for not taking it.

that is why condemnation is based on who does not believe, not based on who god did not chose.

 

[mark54]

you call an Arian your bro?

Trouble for you is Zone, nearly all the ministers in the Trinitarian churches won't state plainly your belief from the pulpit, they only state what I believe unto salvation
But like I say, this is the internet, and people who reckon they know more than those qualified to preach will state from the pulpit come here and make their extra biblical demands for salvation
I guess it must be hard for you languishing on the internet defending what you see as the true Gospel unto salvation and the consequences of getting it wrong while nearly all of those in the pulpits won't do it.
I can feel your frustration now.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Trouble for you is Zone, nearly all the ministers in the Trinitarian churches won't state plainly your belief from the pulpit, they only state what I believe unto salvation
But like I say, this is the internet, and people who reckon they know more than those qualified to preach will state from the pulpit come here and make their extra biblical demands for salvation
I guess it must be hard for you languishing on the internet defending what you see as the true Gospel unto salvation while nearly all of those in the pulpits won't do it.
I can feel your frustration now.

I look at it this way, Anyone who calls Jesus the God of Isreal, who created the universe and holds it in his hands, who set aside his position and diety to come to earth and pay for our sin, and sits at the right hand of God as our mediator forever. is my brother.

anyone who claims anyone who does not agree with their interpretation of daniel 9 is doomed to hell for eternity, is not my sister or brother.

 

[Elin]

I never stated we were. I stated WHY we are told to be lights in darkness.

Correct, but it has nothing to do with the text under discussion.

Everyone can comprehend they are condemned, romans 1 is clear in this. If we can comprehend this,
we can comprehend Jesus paid the way for us to be restored.

So you disagree with Jn 1:5 that unregenerate man cannot comprehend the light (Jesus).

We do not have to comprehend the whole of the kingdom of God to be saved. we can't nor would it save us.

actually it does.

[SUP]6 [/SUP]There was a man sent from God, whose name was John. [SUP]7 [/SUP]This man
came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all through him might believe.

What does "through him" might believe mean?

The text doesn't state might "choose" to believe.

Again might. Maybe the will, maybe they wont.

The text does not state "maybe."

"Might" = "may" = ability, to be able

"Through him" "might believe" = through him be able to believe

There is no ability, apart from Jesus, to believe.

John 3: 16 is the basis.

It does not say he died for the world (elect) so that they will believe and have eternal life (be born again)

It says he died for the WHOLE WORLD that WHOEVER (some will some wont) Believes WILL have eternal life.

Correct, some will and some won't, but it does not state how some come to believe what they cannot comprehend, it simply states that those who do believe will have eternal life as a result of their belief.

You are assuming personal ability is involved.
The text does not indicate anything about ability.

If you want what Scripture states about our personal ability, see Ro 8:7-8, 5:20.
Unregenerate man is spiritually powerless, he can't choose anything spiritual, particularly when he can't even comprehend it, because it is foolishness to him (1Co 2:14).

 

[tribesman]

the recipiant has no part to fulfill. Jesus did it all. He is offering the recipiant the gift. He is not going to force his gift down the recipients throat though, the recipient must take it.

No one would take it unless they have faith it is worth taking. but even if they take it. they did not do anything to earn ,or receive it. It was theirs for the taking.

Many people are given gifts which they never receive, yet it is still theirs.. if they go throughout eternity having never revcieved it. it is not the offerers fault they did not take it, it is the recipients fault for not taking it.

that is why condemnation is based on who does not believe, not based on who god did not chose.

The recipient is dead. Not sick - dead.

 

[tribesman]

You are assuming personal ability is involved. The text does not indicate anything about ability.

Very true. A problem with this assumption is that it gives the unregenerate the characteristics of the regenerate. Carnal, natural men showing forth fruit of the Spirit.

 

[zone]

far beyond the plain words......

John 1:1
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

John 1:3
All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being.

did He create Himself?

that's a tough one.

 

[Elin]

Not me derailing it, but others seeking to engage me in conversation or making out I believe what I do not.

Seems to me though you are pandering to the flesh as you haven't asked anyone else that I can see not to derail the thread who has joined it with no intention of discussing the subject of your thread
Still, I won't complain if you walk after the flesh at times, there's a world of difference between discussing theology and not pandering to the flesh isn't there

Who else has indicated that they are off the thread, that I should ask to then remain off the thread?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

The recipient is dead. Not sick - dead.

yep he is dead, And he can not be made alive until that which makes him dead (sin) is removed.

This is called justification. Thius justification MUST precede regeneration, even if they both happen at the same time, One can not happen without the other. Since FAITH IN CHRIST must preccede justification. then it must precede regeneration.

there is no getting around this.

 

[zone]

I can feel your frustration now.

oh rly

[video=youtube;Yjcg3fFKXvY]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yjcg3fFKXvY[/video]

 

[mark54]

John 1:1
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

John 1:3
All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being.

did He create Himself?

that's a tough one.

Now this is eternal life(note what constitutes eternal life) that they may know you(the Father) the only true God and Jesus Christ whom you have sent



It's OK Zone, I understand, really I do. You believe you have more knowledge than did Christ, Paul, Peter, James or John, or nearly all of the trinitartian ministers today
For none of them demanded/nor do nearly all of the Trinitartian minsters demand from the pulpit what you do on the internet belief wise unto salvation, you add to what they state/stated.
It must be tough for you knowing more than all of the above, and being stuck preaching it on the internet. I understand your frustration, I really do

You must feel like that cat, ever striving to do what they will not, and not getting very far

 

[tribesman]

yep he is dead, And he can not be made alive until that which makes him dead (sin) is removed.

This is called justification. Thius justification MUST precede regeneration, even if they both happen at the same time, One can not happen without the other. Since FAITH IN CHRIST must preccede justification. then it must precede regeneration.

there is no getting around this.

There is nothing in scripture which says it "must" be like you say.

 

[mark54]

Who else has indicated that they are off the thread, that I should ask to then remain off the thread?

Now now Elin. Are you saying no one else has joined this thread and discussed a subject other than the subject of the title of your thread?

Best to be honest Elin, rather than just seek to support friends. That's pandering to the flesh I would say, and seeking to impress others

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Correct, but it has nothing to do with the text under discussion.

I was not discussing that text. I was discussing what it means to be a light, and why.

So you disagree with Jn 1:5 that unregenerate man cannot comprehend the light (Jesus).

What does "through him" might believe mean?

The text doesn't state might "choose" to believe.

The text does not state "maybe."

"Might" = "may" = ability, to be able

"Through him" "might believe" = through him be able to believe

There is no ability, apart from Jesus, to believe.

sorry. You have it ALL mixed up.. John came to bear witness so ALL MIGHT BELIEVE.

the fact that all only "might" and not "will" believes counters your whole argument. If he came to all. but all only "might" believe.. then we can only determine that all did not believe.

Might does not mean to have the ability, it means they may or may not.. your adding to the word of God.. If God wanted us to understand that they would believe because they are now able to. he would have flat out told us.

John Came as a witness to ALL so they WOULD believe. Not so they MIGHT believe.. Your changing the meaning of the verse.

Correct, some will and some won't, but it does not state how some come to believe what they cannot comprehend, it simply states that those who do believe will have eternal life as a result of their belief.

thus they are born again as the result of their belief. you keep saying it, but you argue against it.. why?

You are assuming personal ability is involved. The text does not indicate anything about ability.

it does not have to. it says plainly whoever believes has eternal life (born again) and thus are not condemned. whoever does not believe is in a state of condemnation still because they have not believed.

given the ability to believe or not believe is already answered, why? God sent his son.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

There is nothing in scripture which says it "must" be like you say.

yeah there is, it is all over the place

the penalty of sin is death

the gift of God is life

As long as we are still in sin, we are dead.

We can not be made alive until we receive the gift. what is the gift? eternal life. how do we get it? By believing in the name of the only begotten son of God.


it is all quite simple. your making it harder than it has to be.

 

[tribesman]

yeah there is, it is all over the place

the penalty of sin is death

the gift of God is life

As long as we are still in sin, we are dead.

We can not be made alive until we receive the gift. what is the gift? eternal life. how do we get it? By believing in the name of the only begotten son of God.


it is all quite simple. your making it harder than it has to be.

Nope. I am staying simple, with scripture. Not reading something into the text which isn't there. It is God's doing and not our own doing.

 

[mark54]

Originally Posted by unclefester

Scratch that ... i.e.... nevermind. I don't want to know. I've derailed Elin's thread more than I've wanted to. My apologies Elin

Dont worry about the thread....just dont get into a neverending nothingness(Elin)


It would seem from the above Elin you were not then concerned if the thread was derailed

 

[Elin]

In fact, the Greek says: Everyone who is believing (present participle) that Jesus is the Christ has been born from God (perfect passive).

Notice, even in John 3:16, that faith is mentioned first, then rebirth.

Am I misunderstanding you?

I am presently believing because I have been (already) reborn.

Rebirth is a past occurrence, which is the cause of present belief.

"Whosoever believes he can crush ice in his mouth is able to do so because he believes he can"
"Whosoever does not believe he can crush ice in his mouth is not able to do so because he does not believe he can"

So the toothless guy with no dentures can crush ice in his mouth without teeth just because he believes he can?

Non-responsive.

Ever heard of the power of suggestion?

Ever heard of relevance?

One believes in Christ for their righteousness from their heart. Confession is made from the heart for salvation.

Rom 10:10 For with the heart man believeth unto (for) righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

Yes, salvation involves inward belief as well as outward confession of that belief.

But only the fact of belief in the heart is stated, how one comes to belief in his heart is not indicated, only assumed here.

How one comes to belief is stated in:
Faith is a gift (Php 1:29).

Faith is by grace (Ac 18:27).

One must have the Spirit of God to receive the things that come from the Spirit of God; e.g., faith (1Co 2:14).

Only the children of God can hear (Jn 8:43-44, 47).