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J
If you really want to learn theology, I advise Alpha and Omega Ministries, The Christian Apologetics Ministry of James R. White. Otherwise, I'm not getting in this one if I can stay out.
inb4 skinski rant
EDIT:
PM me if you want, I am a Calvinist through and through regarding soteriology. I'm not interested in bible discussion forum arguments until after easter sunday.
inb4 skinski rant
EDIT:
PM me if you want, I am a Calvinist through and through regarding soteriology. I'm not interested in bible discussion forum arguments until after easter sunday.
Last edited:
[h=3]John Calvin's Denial Of Working Faith[/h]
Here is one of my favourite John Calvin quotes:
"23. Hence also it is proved, that it is entirely by the intervention of Christ’s righteousness that we obtain justification before God. This is equivalent to saying that man is not just in hi
mself, but that the righteousness of Christ is communicated to him by imputation, while he is strictly deserving of punishment. Thus vanishes the absurd dogma, that man is justified by faith, inasmuch as it brings him under the influence of the Spirit of God by whom he is rendered righteous. This is so repugnant to the above doctrine that it never can be reconciled with it."
Institutes of the Christian Religion - Christian Classics Ethereal Library
This quote is one of the clearest examples which depicts as to how deluded John Calvin indeed was. John Calvin could not conceive in His mind how FAITH is the WORKING DYNAMIC by which the grace of God is made effectual to the saving of the soul.
In this quote Calvin defends the JESUS CLOAK, the imputed righteousness of Christ, and decries an active faith by which one yields to God and is thus purified. He calls the truth an "absurd dogma."
We read in Acts the following statement...
Act 15:9 And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.
It is faith that purifies the heart. Why? Because FAITH OBEYS!
Look at this passage...
1Pe 1:22 Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently:
1Pe 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.
The soul is purified how? Through obedience to the truth through the Spirit. Notice that being born again is by the "word" of God. Compare to this passage...
Jas 1:21 Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls.
Jas 1:22 But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.
It is the implanted word that saves the soul. How does it save the soul? Through RECEIVING it. When one RECEIVES the implanted word they are DOERS OF THE WORD.
Doing is the opposite of not doing.
Receiving is the opposite of rejecting.
Obeying is the opposite of disobeying.
Look at what Jesus said here...
Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Notice it is the DOERS who shall enter the kingdom.
What is the characteristic of those Jesus rejects?
Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
They are WORKERS OF INIQUITY. They were not doers.
Carefully read this passage where Paul speaks that it is the DOERS who keep the RIGHTEOUSNESS OF THE LAW that shall be justified. They keep the law not in the letter but in the Spirit for the letter can only ever be an outward description of righteous behaviour while true righteousness emanates from a pure heart which is yielded to God.
Rom 2:6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
Rom 2:7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
Rom 2:8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
Rom 2:9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
Rom 2:10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
Rom 2:11 For there is no respect of persons with God.
Rom 2:12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;
Rom 2:13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
Rom 2:26 Therefore if the uncircumcision keep the righteousness of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be counted for circumcision?
Rom 2:27 And shall not uncircumcision which is by nature, if it fulfil the law, judge thee, who by the letter and circumcision dost transgress the law?
Rom 2:28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
Rom 2:29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.
The law is a mere shadow of a faith that works by love. For it is by faith that God justifies a man.
Rom 3:30 Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith.
Rom 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.
Gal 5:5 For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith.
Gal 5:6 For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.
John Calvin taught that the obedient track record of Jesus Christ (His righteousness) is credited to the believer. This lie completely negates the dynamic of faith by which true heart purity is produced in a repentant sinner.
Let's look again at what James stated...
Jas 1:21 Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls.
Jas 1:22 But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.
James clearly states that one must lay aside ALL iniquity in order to RECEIVE the implanted word.
There are two kinds of people, those who work iniquity and those who have been purified by an obedient faith.
As Peter asserted our souls are purified by obedience to the truth through the Spirit (1Pet 1:22). Notice what Paul says here...
Rom 8:13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
Rom 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
It is through the Spirit that we obey the truth and are made clean. This is the mechanic of salvation, it is how salvation actually works. It is identical to Jesus' teaching on the necessity of ABIDING IN HIM.
Joh 15:4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.
Joh 15:5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.
Jesus is the way, the truth and the life and no-one can go to the Father except through Him. Why?
It is because Jesus is the WORD. Jesus is the LIGHT. Jesus is the source of LIFE.
Joh 1:9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.
Jesus Christ is the operating dynamic of ultimate truth. Out of Him proceeds everything and He proceeds out of the Father. It is through Jesus Christ that we can approach the Father, He is the intermediary for He proceeds out of God, He is the expression of God manifested directly to us.
The message of Jesus is very simple. He taught that we are to stop walking our own way in rebellion to God, we do this through a broken repentance which produces the willingness to yield to God with a whole heart and mind. It is through a genuine repentance and faith that one becomes a doer of the word by which God then manifests His love and power through our hearts enabling us to love God and our neighbour from a pure heart. This is how our righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees who only had a form of godliness outwardly but were inwardly corrupt.
Mat 5:20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.
It is really a simple message and it takes a theologian to obfuscate it.
Mat 5:8 Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God.
The Pearl of Great Price: John Calvin's Denial Of Working Faith
Here is one of my favourite John Calvin quotes:
"23. Hence also it is proved, that it is entirely by the intervention of Christ’s righteousness that we obtain justification before God. This is equivalent to saying that man is not just in hi
mself, but that the righteousness of Christ is communicated to him by imputation, while he is strictly deserving of punishment. Thus vanishes the absurd dogma, that man is justified by faith, inasmuch as it brings him under the influence of the Spirit of God by whom he is rendered righteous. This is so repugnant to the above doctrine that it never can be reconciled with it."
Institutes of the Christian Religion - Christian Classics Ethereal Library
This quote is one of the clearest examples which depicts as to how deluded John Calvin indeed was. John Calvin could not conceive in His mind how FAITH is the WORKING DYNAMIC by which the grace of God is made effectual to the saving of the soul.
In this quote Calvin defends the JESUS CLOAK, the imputed righteousness of Christ, and decries an active faith by which one yields to God and is thus purified. He calls the truth an "absurd dogma."
We read in Acts the following statement...
Act 15:9 And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.
It is faith that purifies the heart. Why? Because FAITH OBEYS!
Look at this passage...
1Pe 1:22 Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently:
1Pe 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.
The soul is purified how? Through obedience to the truth through the Spirit. Notice that being born again is by the "word" of God. Compare to this passage...
Jas 1:21 Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls.
Jas 1:22 But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.
It is the implanted word that saves the soul. How does it save the soul? Through RECEIVING it. When one RECEIVES the implanted word they are DOERS OF THE WORD.
Doing is the opposite of not doing.
Receiving is the opposite of rejecting.
Obeying is the opposite of disobeying.
Look at what Jesus said here...
Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Notice it is the DOERS who shall enter the kingdom.
What is the characteristic of those Jesus rejects?
Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
They are WORKERS OF INIQUITY. They were not doers.
Carefully read this passage where Paul speaks that it is the DOERS who keep the RIGHTEOUSNESS OF THE LAW that shall be justified. They keep the law not in the letter but in the Spirit for the letter can only ever be an outward description of righteous behaviour while true righteousness emanates from a pure heart which is yielded to God.
Rom 2:6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
Rom 2:7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
Rom 2:8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
Rom 2:9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
Rom 2:10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
Rom 2:11 For there is no respect of persons with God.
Rom 2:12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;
Rom 2:13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
Rom 2:26 Therefore if the uncircumcision keep the righteousness of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be counted for circumcision?
Rom 2:27 And shall not uncircumcision which is by nature, if it fulfil the law, judge thee, who by the letter and circumcision dost transgress the law?
Rom 2:28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
Rom 2:29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.
The law is a mere shadow of a faith that works by love. For it is by faith that God justifies a man.
Rom 3:30 Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith.
Rom 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.
Gal 5:5 For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith.
Gal 5:6 For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.
John Calvin taught that the obedient track record of Jesus Christ (His righteousness) is credited to the believer. This lie completely negates the dynamic of faith by which true heart purity is produced in a repentant sinner.
Let's look again at what James stated...
Jas 1:21 Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls.
Jas 1:22 But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.
James clearly states that one must lay aside ALL iniquity in order to RECEIVE the implanted word.
There are two kinds of people, those who work iniquity and those who have been purified by an obedient faith.
As Peter asserted our souls are purified by obedience to the truth through the Spirit (1Pet 1:22). Notice what Paul says here...
Rom 8:13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
Rom 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
It is through the Spirit that we obey the truth and are made clean. This is the mechanic of salvation, it is how salvation actually works. It is identical to Jesus' teaching on the necessity of ABIDING IN HIM.
Joh 15:4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.
Joh 15:5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.
Jesus is the way, the truth and the life and no-one can go to the Father except through Him. Why?
It is because Jesus is the WORD. Jesus is the LIGHT. Jesus is the source of LIFE.
Joh 1:9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.
Jesus Christ is the operating dynamic of ultimate truth. Out of Him proceeds everything and He proceeds out of the Father. It is through Jesus Christ that we can approach the Father, He is the intermediary for He proceeds out of God, He is the expression of God manifested directly to us.
The message of Jesus is very simple. He taught that we are to stop walking our own way in rebellion to God, we do this through a broken repentance which produces the willingness to yield to God with a whole heart and mind. It is through a genuine repentance and faith that one becomes a doer of the word by which God then manifests His love and power through our hearts enabling us to love God and our neighbour from a pure heart. This is how our righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees who only had a form of godliness outwardly but were inwardly corrupt.
Mat 5:20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.
It is really a simple message and it takes a theologian to obfuscate it.
Mat 5:8 Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God.
The Pearl of Great Price: John Calvin's Denial Of Working Faith
Early Church Writings
Early Christian Writings: New Testament, Apocrypha, Gnostics, Church Fathers
Christian Classics Ethereal Library
Welcome to the CCEL - Christian Classics Ethereal Library
Augustine and Original Sin
[video=youtube;KVQ1t5i058Q]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KVQ1t5i058Q[/video]
Early Christian Writings: New Testament, Apocrypha, Gnostics, Church Fathers
Christian Classics Ethereal Library
Welcome to the CCEL - Christian Classics Ethereal Library
Augustine and Original Sin
[video=youtube;KVQ1t5i058Q]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KVQ1t5i058Q[/video]
Calvinism today is by far a homogenous movement. Basically however all the five points have scriptural backup. Here a basic and easy to grasp overlook of same, with scriptural references:
Calvin's TULIP <- link
Calvin's TULIP <- link
Reformed Theology can basically be summed up in the TULIP of Calvinism.
T Total Depravity
U Unconditional Election
L Limited Atonement
I Irresistible Grace
P Perseverance of the Saints
Total Depravity is basically summed up with...
Westminster Confession of Faith
Total depravity teaches that the reason people sin is because they were BORN SINNERS and are thus DISABLED from making the virtuous choice. Thus sin is not a criminal action due to an exercise of free agency in CHOOSING to do wrong, rather it is a SYMPTOM of a birth state.
Total Depravity COMPLETELY REDEFINES REPENTANCE from being "the change of mind that produces the forsaking of sin" to a "confession of sinfulness." Thus under Reformed Theology one approaches God STILL IN REBELLION.
Total Depravity also teaches that a regenerated Christian exists in an ongoing state of sinfulness and thus is a denial of the possibility of heart purity in this life. This is why Reformed teachers TWIST the Scriptures and teach that passages like Romans 7:14-25, 1Joh 1:8, 1Tim 1:15, Isa 64:6, etc. support an ongoing state of wickedness/sinfulness in a Christian. The doctrine of Total Depravity infiltrated and found wide acceptance in Christian orthodoxy through the prolific influence of Augustine in the Fourth Century. Reformed theologians like Martin Luther and John Calvin held Augustine in very high regard and used his material prolifically in formulating their theologies.
Total Depravity is an extremely dangerous teaching for it redefines the nature of man and thus redefines the entire Gospel message by redefining repentance, faith, grace, salvation and sin.
We are not born sinners, nor are we born dead. Spiritual death is a result of sin.
Gen 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
Rom 7:9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.
Rom 7:10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.
Rom 7:11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.
Jas 1:14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
Jas 1:15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.
The First Death
Gen 3:6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.
Unconditional Election is a symptom of the doctrine of Total Depravity. Due to the doctrine of Total Depravity teaching that man is DISABLED from the virtuous choice man therefore cannot seek God unless God Irresistibly Draws him. Thus those who are granted Irresistible Grace are Unconditionally Elected for there is NO CONDITION that a man can meet to merit election. Thus the Reformed doctrine of Predestination teaches that God unconditionally picks those who are to be saved and then draws them with irresistible grace. This doctrine also has its root in the writings of Augustine.
The Limited Atonement teaches that Jesus only died for the elect and in principle this is due to Penal Substitution theology. The Penal Substitution view of the atonement was invented by Reformers who took that Satisfaction view of Anselm (Satisfaction theory of atonement - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia) and added a Penal aspect to it. The Anselmian view teaches that Christ died to satisfy divine justice in order that God could forgive sin without casting dispersion on His justice. The Moral Government view of people like Charles Finney is rooted in the Anselmian view.
The Reformers (many of who were lawyers) took the Satisfaction Model and added an aspect of judicial punishment to it and thus taught that Jesus literally bore the full wrath of God as a substitute for the sinner. This is where the phrase, "Jesus paid for your sins" comes from. The Bible does not actually teach that "Jesus paid for your sins," instead it teaches that "we were bought with a price" and the context of that is "ransom" but that is another subject.
If Jesus literally was punished for sins as a substitute it necessitates that punishment cannot be due for those sins anymore (hence unconditional eternal security or "once saved always saved") thus there is no possible way that Jesus could have bore the wrath as a substitute for those who are lost. To imply that Jesus died for those who are to perish would imply double jeopardy or the same sins being punished twice thus Reformed doctrine teaches that Jesus ONLY died for the elect hence the Limited Atonement.
I already discussed Irresistible Grace so I'll move onto Perseverance of the Saints. Perseverance of the Saints is the teaching that due to God irresistibly drawing the unconditioned elect they will by necessity persevere in the faith.
The whole premise of Reformed Theology is established on a perverted view of the Sovereignty of God. In their minds the sovereignty of God negates the free agency of man. The truth is that God is the sovereign judge who has a sovereign standard but He has granted all men the free gift of free moral agency. Thus we can CHOOSE whom we will serve. We can resist the light of God and walk our own way and become enslaved to our base desires, or we can yield to the light of God and walk in His Spirit.
Reformed Theology consists of layer upon layer of error. Examining it is like peeling an onion, in the middle of the onion is the doctrine of Total Depravity which teaches that man is unable to make the choice to serve God. This inability has to be offset by the grace of God before an individual can turn to God. This is why they preach a SAVED IN SINS message.
The Bible teaches that the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men teaching them how they should go (Tit 2:11-12). Men have the choice as to whether to submit to God or to rebel against God. Jesus Christ is the light that lights all men who come into the world (Joh 1:9). There is no such thing as inability and there is no such thing as being born in a state of total depravity. Men can become totally depraved by willfully suppressing the truth in unrighteousness whereby God will give them over to a reprobate mind (Rom 1:20-32) but men are not born that way.
Reformed theology is Satanic to the core because it utterly perverts the method by which sinners can approach God to be reconciled. Reformed theology perverts repentance and faith at the fundamental level convincing a sinner that they cannot forsake their sin (thus negating a genuine repentance) which leads to the conclusion and that they can actually be reconciled to God whilst still engaged in the known commission of sin. Thus they come to a false notion of salvation (based off thinking they have been cloaked by the imputed righteous of Christ and that Jesus paid their fine) while in reality they remain dead in their sins for they are still in rebellion to God.
Satan does not want people to repent and yield to God thus his attack is at the root of repentance and faith.
The false notion of salvation inculcated under this delusion inoculates the sinner very effectually against the real truth, thus the mind becomes firmly closed to the real truth of God. You'll clearly see this evidenced on these forums by many people who refuse to acknowledge certain passages in the Scripture which completely refute their position.
The Bible says depart from iniquity. The Reformed Theologian teaches that YOU CANNOT.
T Total Depravity
U Unconditional Election
L Limited Atonement
I Irresistible Grace
P Perseverance of the Saints
Total Depravity is basically summed up with...
Westminster Confession of Faith
Total depravity teaches that the reason people sin is because they were BORN SINNERS and are thus DISABLED from making the virtuous choice. Thus sin is not a criminal action due to an exercise of free agency in CHOOSING to do wrong, rather it is a SYMPTOM of a birth state.
Total Depravity COMPLETELY REDEFINES REPENTANCE from being "the change of mind that produces the forsaking of sin" to a "confession of sinfulness." Thus under Reformed Theology one approaches God STILL IN REBELLION.
Total Depravity also teaches that a regenerated Christian exists in an ongoing state of sinfulness and thus is a denial of the possibility of heart purity in this life. This is why Reformed teachers TWIST the Scriptures and teach that passages like Romans 7:14-25, 1Joh 1:8, 1Tim 1:15, Isa 64:6, etc. support an ongoing state of wickedness/sinfulness in a Christian. The doctrine of Total Depravity infiltrated and found wide acceptance in Christian orthodoxy through the prolific influence of Augustine in the Fourth Century. Reformed theologians like Martin Luther and John Calvin held Augustine in very high regard and used his material prolifically in formulating their theologies.
Total Depravity is an extremely dangerous teaching for it redefines the nature of man and thus redefines the entire Gospel message by redefining repentance, faith, grace, salvation and sin.
We are not born sinners, nor are we born dead. Spiritual death is a result of sin.
Gen 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
Rom 7:9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.
Rom 7:10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.
Rom 7:11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.
Jas 1:14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
Jas 1:15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.
The First Death
Gen 3:6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.
Unconditional Election is a symptom of the doctrine of Total Depravity. Due to the doctrine of Total Depravity teaching that man is DISABLED from the virtuous choice man therefore cannot seek God unless God Irresistibly Draws him. Thus those who are granted Irresistible Grace are Unconditionally Elected for there is NO CONDITION that a man can meet to merit election. Thus the Reformed doctrine of Predestination teaches that God unconditionally picks those who are to be saved and then draws them with irresistible grace. This doctrine also has its root in the writings of Augustine.
The Limited Atonement teaches that Jesus only died for the elect and in principle this is due to Penal Substitution theology. The Penal Substitution view of the atonement was invented by Reformers who took that Satisfaction view of Anselm (Satisfaction theory of atonement - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia) and added a Penal aspect to it. The Anselmian view teaches that Christ died to satisfy divine justice in order that God could forgive sin without casting dispersion on His justice. The Moral Government view of people like Charles Finney is rooted in the Anselmian view.
The Reformers (many of who were lawyers) took the Satisfaction Model and added an aspect of judicial punishment to it and thus taught that Jesus literally bore the full wrath of God as a substitute for the sinner. This is where the phrase, "Jesus paid for your sins" comes from. The Bible does not actually teach that "Jesus paid for your sins," instead it teaches that "we were bought with a price" and the context of that is "ransom" but that is another subject.
If Jesus literally was punished for sins as a substitute it necessitates that punishment cannot be due for those sins anymore (hence unconditional eternal security or "once saved always saved") thus there is no possible way that Jesus could have bore the wrath as a substitute for those who are lost. To imply that Jesus died for those who are to perish would imply double jeopardy or the same sins being punished twice thus Reformed doctrine teaches that Jesus ONLY died for the elect hence the Limited Atonement.
I already discussed Irresistible Grace so I'll move onto Perseverance of the Saints. Perseverance of the Saints is the teaching that due to God irresistibly drawing the unconditioned elect they will by necessity persevere in the faith.
The whole premise of Reformed Theology is established on a perverted view of the Sovereignty of God. In their minds the sovereignty of God negates the free agency of man. The truth is that God is the sovereign judge who has a sovereign standard but He has granted all men the free gift of free moral agency. Thus we can CHOOSE whom we will serve. We can resist the light of God and walk our own way and become enslaved to our base desires, or we can yield to the light of God and walk in His Spirit.
Reformed Theology consists of layer upon layer of error. Examining it is like peeling an onion, in the middle of the onion is the doctrine of Total Depravity which teaches that man is unable to make the choice to serve God. This inability has to be offset by the grace of God before an individual can turn to God. This is why they preach a SAVED IN SINS message.
The Bible teaches that the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men teaching them how they should go (Tit 2:11-12). Men have the choice as to whether to submit to God or to rebel against God. Jesus Christ is the light that lights all men who come into the world (Joh 1:9). There is no such thing as inability and there is no such thing as being born in a state of total depravity. Men can become totally depraved by willfully suppressing the truth in unrighteousness whereby God will give them over to a reprobate mind (Rom 1:20-32) but men are not born that way.
Reformed theology is Satanic to the core because it utterly perverts the method by which sinners can approach God to be reconciled. Reformed theology perverts repentance and faith at the fundamental level convincing a sinner that they cannot forsake their sin (thus negating a genuine repentance) which leads to the conclusion and that they can actually be reconciled to God whilst still engaged in the known commission of sin. Thus they come to a false notion of salvation (based off thinking they have been cloaked by the imputed righteous of Christ and that Jesus paid their fine) while in reality they remain dead in their sins for they are still in rebellion to God.
Satan does not want people to repent and yield to God thus his attack is at the root of repentance and faith.
The false notion of salvation inculcated under this delusion inoculates the sinner very effectually against the real truth, thus the mind becomes firmly closed to the real truth of God. You'll clearly see this evidenced on these forums by many people who refuse to acknowledge certain passages in the Scripture which completely refute their position.
The Bible says depart from iniquity. The Reformed Theologian teaches that YOU CANNOT.
Skinski,
How do you reconcile these passages with what you are saying,in which Paul is clear that he can't and also we are dead in trespasses?
Didn't Paul say this
Romans 7
[SUP]14 [/SUP]We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin. [SUP]15 [/SUP]I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. [SUP]16 [/SUP]And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. [SUP]17 [/SUP]As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. [SUP]18 [/SUP]For I know that good itself does not dwell in me, that is, in my sinful nature.[SUP][c][/SUP] For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. [SUP]19 [/SUP]For I do not do the good I want to do, but the evil I do not want to do—this I keep on doing. [SUP]20 [/SUP]Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.
[SUP]21 [/SUP]So I find this law at work: Although I want to do good, evil is right there with me. [SUP]22 [/SUP]For in my inner being I delight in God’s law; [SUP]23 [/SUP]but I see another law at work in me, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within me.[SUP]24 [/SUP]What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body that is subject to death? [SUP]25 [/SUP]Thanks be to God, who delivers me through Jesus Christ our Lord!
So then, I myself in my mind am a slave to God’s law,but in my sinful nature[SUP][d][/SUP] a slave to the law of sin.
See what I hear you saying is that you cleaned yourself up first BEFORE God forgave you. (Is that what you are saying?)
Because here Paul says he was unable to do the good he wants to do and does the things does not want to do. Paul says he can't.
Paul also goes onto say this
Romans 5
5 Therefore, since we have been justified through faith,we[SUP][a][/SUP] have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,[SUP]2 [/SUP]through whom we have gained access by faith into this grace in which we now stand. And we[SUP][b][/SUP] boast in the hope of the glory of God.[SUP]3 [/SUP]Not only so, but we[SUP][c][/SUP] also glory in our sufferings, because we know that suffering produces perseverance; [SUP]4 [/SUP]perseverance, character; and character, hope. [SUP]5 [/SUP]And hope does not put us to shame, because God’s love has been poured out into our hearts through the Holy Spirit, who has been given to us.
[SUP]6 [/SUP]You see, at just the right time, when we were still powerless, Christ died for the ungodly. [SUP]7[/SUP]Very rarely will anyone die for a righteous person, though for a good person someone might possibly dare to die. [SUP]8 [/SUP]But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.
[SUP]9 [/SUP]Since we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from God’s wrath through him! [SUP]10 [/SUP]For if, while we were God’s enemies, we were reconciled to him through the death of his Son, how much more, having been reconciled, shall we be saved through his life![SUP]11 [/SUP]Not only is this so, but we also boast in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.
Paul again says while we were ungodly and powerless,Christ died for us. And he says while we were God's enemies we were reconciled. Paul also goes on to say we were dead in trepasses
Ephesians 2
2 As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, [SUP]2 [/SUP]in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient. [SUP]3 [/SUP]All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our flesh[SUP][a][/SUP] and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature deserving of wrath. [SUP]4 [/SUP]But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, [SUP]5 [/SUP]made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved. [SUP]6 [/SUP]And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, [SUP]7 [/SUP]in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace,expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus. [SUP]8 [/SUP]For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— [SUP]9 [/SUP]not by works, so that no one can boast. [SUP]10 [/SUP]For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works,which God prepared in advance for us to do.
So why does Paul say he is unable to and also we were dead unless there is an underlying problem? So is Paul mistaken,confused or lying?
How do you reconcile these passages with what you are saying,in which Paul is clear that he can't and also we are dead in trespasses?
Didn't Paul say this
Romans 7
[SUP]14 [/SUP]We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin. [SUP]15 [/SUP]I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. [SUP]16 [/SUP]And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. [SUP]17 [/SUP]As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. [SUP]18 [/SUP]For I know that good itself does not dwell in me, that is, in my sinful nature.[SUP][c][/SUP] For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. [SUP]19 [/SUP]For I do not do the good I want to do, but the evil I do not want to do—this I keep on doing. [SUP]20 [/SUP]Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.
[SUP]21 [/SUP]So I find this law at work: Although I want to do good, evil is right there with me. [SUP]22 [/SUP]For in my inner being I delight in God’s law; [SUP]23 [/SUP]but I see another law at work in me, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within me.[SUP]24 [/SUP]What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body that is subject to death? [SUP]25 [/SUP]Thanks be to God, who delivers me through Jesus Christ our Lord!
So then, I myself in my mind am a slave to God’s law,but in my sinful nature[SUP][d][/SUP] a slave to the law of sin.
See what I hear you saying is that you cleaned yourself up first BEFORE God forgave you. (Is that what you are saying?)
Because here Paul says he was unable to do the good he wants to do and does the things does not want to do. Paul says he can't.
Paul also goes onto say this
Romans 5
5 Therefore, since we have been justified through faith,we[SUP][a][/SUP] have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,[SUP]2 [/SUP]through whom we have gained access by faith into this grace in which we now stand. And we[SUP][b][/SUP] boast in the hope of the glory of God.[SUP]3 [/SUP]Not only so, but we[SUP][c][/SUP] also glory in our sufferings, because we know that suffering produces perseverance; [SUP]4 [/SUP]perseverance, character; and character, hope. [SUP]5 [/SUP]And hope does not put us to shame, because God’s love has been poured out into our hearts through the Holy Spirit, who has been given to us.
[SUP]6 [/SUP]You see, at just the right time, when we were still powerless, Christ died for the ungodly. [SUP]7[/SUP]Very rarely will anyone die for a righteous person, though for a good person someone might possibly dare to die. [SUP]8 [/SUP]But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.
[SUP]9 [/SUP]Since we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from God’s wrath through him! [SUP]10 [/SUP]For if, while we were God’s enemies, we were reconciled to him through the death of his Son, how much more, having been reconciled, shall we be saved through his life![SUP]11 [/SUP]Not only is this so, but we also boast in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.
Paul again says while we were ungodly and powerless,Christ died for us. And he says while we were God's enemies we were reconciled. Paul also goes on to say we were dead in trepasses
Ephesians 2
2 As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, [SUP]2 [/SUP]in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient. [SUP]3 [/SUP]All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our flesh[SUP][a][/SUP] and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature deserving of wrath. [SUP]4 [/SUP]But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, [SUP]5 [/SUP]made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved. [SUP]6 [/SUP]And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, [SUP]7 [/SUP]in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace,expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus. [SUP]8 [/SUP]For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— [SUP]9 [/SUP]not by works, so that no one can boast. [SUP]10 [/SUP]For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works,which God prepared in advance for us to do.
So why does Paul say he is unable to and also we were dead unless there is an underlying problem? So is Paul mistaken,confused or lying?
Z
My problem with Calvinism is that it works to it's own logic. If A is true and B is true then C must be true. Therefore Calvinists will believe in Limited Atonement (even though the Bible says Jesus died for the sins of the whole world) because arguments A and B (ie the first 2 of the 5 precepts) have some Biblical support.
What crossnote had here is a good summation on how we are to approach Calvin and any text with the exception of the Bible.
I really do not like the term "Calvinism" for many reasons. Among them is that his writings are so voluminous that it would be hard to agree with him on every topic and the odds are against an over one-thousand page theological treatise to be completely correct.
Another problem I have is that Calvinist thought is too narrowly defined. "Is Calvinism Biblical?" is usually another way of saying "Is predestination Biblical?" or "Is TULIP Biblical?" which is unfair because Luther and others had more to say on the matter than Calvin himself.
Is Calvinism Biblical? I can't answer issue by issue. By and large his writing is intensely Biblical and more edifying than CS Lewis.
My best advice is to pick up the Institutes and read them for yourself. I think they may surprise you.
I really do not like the term "Calvinism" for many reasons. Among them is that his writings are so voluminous that it would be hard to agree with him on every topic and the odds are against an over one-thousand page theological treatise to be completely correct.
Another problem I have is that Calvinist thought is too narrowly defined. "Is Calvinism Biblical?" is usually another way of saying "Is predestination Biblical?" or "Is TULIP Biblical?" which is unfair because Luther and others had more to say on the matter than Calvin himself.
Is Calvinism Biblical? I can't answer issue by issue. By and large his writing is intensely Biblical and more edifying than CS Lewis.
My best advice is to pick up the Institutes and read them for yourself. I think they may surprise you.
My comments in blue.
Skinski,
How do you reconcile these passages with what you are saying,in which Paul is clear that he can't and also we are dead in trespasses?
Didn't Paul say this
Romans 7
[SUP]14 [/SUP]We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin. [SUP]15 [/SUP]I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. [SUP]16 [/SUP]And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. [SUP]17 [/SUP]As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. [SUP]18 [/SUP]For I know that good itself does not dwell in me, that is, in my sinful nature.[SUP][c][/SUP] For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. [SUP]19 [/SUP]For I do not do the good I want to do, but the evil I do not want to do—this I keep on doing. [SUP]20 [/SUP]Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.
[SUP]21 [/SUP]So I find this law at work: Although I want to do good, evil is right there with me. [SUP]22 [/SUP]For in my inner being I delight in God’s law; [SUP]23 [/SUP]but I see another law at work in me, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within me.[SUP]24 [/SUP]What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body that is subject to death? [SUP]25 [/SUP]Thanks be to God, who delivers me through Jesus Christ our Lord!
So then, I myself in my mind am a slave to God’s law,but in my sinful nature[SUP][d][/SUP] a slave to the law of sin.
See what I hear you saying is that you cleaned yourself up first BEFORE God forgave you. (Is that what you are saying?)
Because here Paul says he was unable to do the good he wants to do and does the things does not want to do. Paul says he can't.
Sarah, the wretch of Romans 7 is an example of a man who knows the law, knows that the law is good, yet is enslaved to his carnal passions. Thus he is carnal and sold under sin and cannot do the right thing. It is an example of wanting to overcome the flesh in the flesh. This man is under strong conviction and is seeking deliverance.
You see his mind serves the law of God in the sense that his mind agrees with it. Yet his flesh serves the law of sin, in other words he lives in accordance with his base carnal desires. If you read Romans 8:2 Paul teaches that it is the Spirit of life in Jesus Christ which sets one free from the law of sin and death. That is the key! Instead of attempting to defeat sin in the flesh, it has to be defeated in the spirit, hence this is why it is in receiving the implanted word that our souls can be saved (Jam 1:21). When we turn ourselves over to God having FORSAKEN SELF in repentance it is the power of God that works through us. This is where victory is found, yet this power can only be found in yielding to God completely. This is why Jesus preached REPENTANCE. For it is in repentance where the old man is put to death through a broken godly sorrow and a willingness to submit is born.
Paul also goes onto say this
Romans 5
5 Therefore, since we have been justified through faith,we[SUP][a][/SUP] have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,[SUP]2 [/SUP]through whom we have gained access by faith into this grace in which we now stand. And we[SUP][b][/SUP] boast in the hope of the glory of God.[SUP]3 [/SUP]Not only so, but we[SUP][c][/SUP] also glory in our sufferings, because we know that suffering produces perseverance; [SUP]4 [/SUP]perseverance, character; and character, hope. [SUP]5 [/SUP]And hope does not put us to shame, because God’s love has been poured out into our hearts through the Holy Spirit, who has been given to us.
[SUP]6 [/SUP]You see, at just the right time, when we were still powerless, Christ died for the ungodly. [SUP]7[/SUP]Very rarely will anyone die for a righteous person, though for a good person someone might possibly dare to die. [SUP]8 [/SUP]But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.
[SUP]9 [/SUP]Since we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from God’s wrath through him! [SUP]10 [/SUP]For if, while we were God’s enemies, we were reconciled to him through the death of his Son, how much more, having been reconciled, shall we be saved through his life![SUP]11 [/SUP]Not only is this so, but we also boast in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.
Paul again says while we were ungodly and powerless,Christ died for us. And he says while we were God's enemies we were reconciled. Paul also goes on to say we were dead in trepasses
Yes and it means what it says, but don't read things into the text what it not there. Mankind was reconciled to God through Jesus Christ and He indeed died for us while we were yet sinners. Here is a parallel passage...
2Co 5:18 And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;
The reconciliation here is reconciliation in a general sense in that man is already reconciled to God through Jesus Christ. Yet that does not preclude having to ENTER INTO THIS RECONCILIATION via abiding in the Spirit of life in Jesus Christ. Paul goes on to say...
2Co 5:20 Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.
See it is not a done deal. We have to access it, thus go back to Romans 5 where it says this...
Rom 5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:
Rom 5:2 By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.
The reconciliation has to be accessed through faith. The kind of faith is that of Abraham, for Paul had just written what we call Chapter 4 in which he painstakingly DESCRIBED this faith.
Abraham's faith was a faith which had a WALK (Rom 4:12). We can expand on that walk by looking at Heb 11:8 where faith is connected to obedience. In Joh 8:39 we see that Abraham's faith also manifested works. Thus the faith by which we access the grace in which we stand is FAITHFULNESS to God. In other words one is not in rebellion but rather is in full submission to the lead of God. This is why there is no condemnation to those who walk after the Spirit (Rom 8:1-4) for those are ABIDING IN CHRIST and it is THROUGH CHRIST that we are reconciled to God.
What the false teachers do is twist "abiding in Christ" to be a purely "forensic" or "positional" abiding as opposed to a MANIFEST REALITY. When one is TRULY abiding in Christ they are walking as He walked in that they keep His commandments.
1Jn 2:3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
1Jn 2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
1Jn 2:5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.
1Jn 2:6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.
The love of God is PERFECTED in us who abide in Christ. This nonsense of perpetual sinfulness is pure deception. People need to wake up to the truth and shed their simple mindedness.
Ephesians 2
2 As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, [SUP]2 [/SUP]in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient. [SUP]3 [/SUP]All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our flesh[SUP][a][/SUP] and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature deserving of wrath. [SUP]4 [/SUP]But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, [SUP]5 [/SUP]made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved. [SUP]6 [/SUP]And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, [SUP]7 [/SUP]in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace,expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus. [SUP]8 [/SUP]For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— [SUP]9 [/SUP]not by works, so that no one can boast. [SUP]10 [/SUP]For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works,which God prepared in advance for us to do.
So why does Paul say he is unable to and also we were dead unless there is an underlying problem? So is Paul mistaken,confused or lying?
When God raises us up it is indeed from being in a dead state. The forsaking of sin in repentance does not equate being raised up. We don't raise ourselves up, God does it. Genuine repentance is a CONDITION which places us in a position where God will raise us up. Hence...
Act 3:19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;
We don't refresh ourselves. We repent and convert (due to being convicted by the Holy Spirit which is in the world) and thus diligently seek the face of God pleading to be reconciled. God gives grace to the humble, thus...
Mat 5:3 Blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
Mat 5:4 Blessed are they that mourn: for they shall be comforted.
Mat 5:5 Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth.
Mat 5:6 Blessed are they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled.
We approach God through a broken repentance with faith. God then does His supernatural work in us and brings us from darkness to light.
Eph 2:5 refers to the quickening and connects that to grace...
Eph 2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved
It is by "faith" that we enter into this quickening. The quickening is simply the act of God raising us up to newness of life, basically our spirit which was dead to God comes alive and we are filled with the love of God. We enter into the Spirit of life in Jesus Christ. This is being born again or born from above. It is a real encounter with the living God.
No-one experiences the above if they are still in rebellion. God does not regenerate rebels. The rebellion must first be forsaken in repentance. This is why the modern gospel is a complete farce because it totally negates true regeneration.
Satan has shifted focus from the real dynamic of repentance and faith which is how someone approaches God and replaces it with the perversion of a positional justification based on the "Finished Work Of Christ" as presented through the Penal Substitution doctrine (ie. Jesus paid your sin debt.)
It is an insidious deception which leaves converts convinced they are saved while they remain dead to God. They may feel all buzzed up from an emotional experience but NOTHING changed in the heart, they are still defiled, carnal and sold under sin. They just received a satanic inoculation against the real Gospel.
If you need any clarification I am only to happy to answer legitimate questions. I know my language probably sounds chinese a lot of the time due that I don't hold to the professing churches definitions of concepts like faith, grace, salvation, sin, and repentance.
How do you reconcile these passages with what you are saying,in which Paul is clear that he can't and also we are dead in trespasses?
Didn't Paul say this
Romans 7
[SUP]14 [/SUP]We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin. [SUP]15 [/SUP]I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. [SUP]16 [/SUP]And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. [SUP]17 [/SUP]As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. [SUP]18 [/SUP]For I know that good itself does not dwell in me, that is, in my sinful nature.[SUP][c][/SUP] For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. [SUP]19 [/SUP]For I do not do the good I want to do, but the evil I do not want to do—this I keep on doing. [SUP]20 [/SUP]Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.
[SUP]21 [/SUP]So I find this law at work: Although I want to do good, evil is right there with me. [SUP]22 [/SUP]For in my inner being I delight in God’s law; [SUP]23 [/SUP]but I see another law at work in me, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within me.[SUP]24 [/SUP]What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body that is subject to death? [SUP]25 [/SUP]Thanks be to God, who delivers me through Jesus Christ our Lord!
So then, I myself in my mind am a slave to God’s law,but in my sinful nature[SUP][d][/SUP] a slave to the law of sin.
See what I hear you saying is that you cleaned yourself up first BEFORE God forgave you. (Is that what you are saying?)
Because here Paul says he was unable to do the good he wants to do and does the things does not want to do. Paul says he can't.
Sarah, the wretch of Romans 7 is an example of a man who knows the law, knows that the law is good, yet is enslaved to his carnal passions. Thus he is carnal and sold under sin and cannot do the right thing. It is an example of wanting to overcome the flesh in the flesh. This man is under strong conviction and is seeking deliverance.
You see his mind serves the law of God in the sense that his mind agrees with it. Yet his flesh serves the law of sin, in other words he lives in accordance with his base carnal desires. If you read Romans 8:2 Paul teaches that it is the Spirit of life in Jesus Christ which sets one free from the law of sin and death. That is the key! Instead of attempting to defeat sin in the flesh, it has to be defeated in the spirit, hence this is why it is in receiving the implanted word that our souls can be saved (Jam 1:21). When we turn ourselves over to God having FORSAKEN SELF in repentance it is the power of God that works through us. This is where victory is found, yet this power can only be found in yielding to God completely. This is why Jesus preached REPENTANCE. For it is in repentance where the old man is put to death through a broken godly sorrow and a willingness to submit is born.
Paul also goes onto say this
Romans 5
5 Therefore, since we have been justified through faith,we[SUP][a][/SUP] have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,[SUP]2 [/SUP]through whom we have gained access by faith into this grace in which we now stand. And we[SUP][b][/SUP] boast in the hope of the glory of God.[SUP]3 [/SUP]Not only so, but we[SUP][c][/SUP] also glory in our sufferings, because we know that suffering produces perseverance; [SUP]4 [/SUP]perseverance, character; and character, hope. [SUP]5 [/SUP]And hope does not put us to shame, because God’s love has been poured out into our hearts through the Holy Spirit, who has been given to us.
[SUP]6 [/SUP]You see, at just the right time, when we were still powerless, Christ died for the ungodly. [SUP]7[/SUP]Very rarely will anyone die for a righteous person, though for a good person someone might possibly dare to die. [SUP]8 [/SUP]But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.
[SUP]9 [/SUP]Since we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from God’s wrath through him! [SUP]10 [/SUP]For if, while we were God’s enemies, we were reconciled to him through the death of his Son, how much more, having been reconciled, shall we be saved through his life![SUP]11 [/SUP]Not only is this so, but we also boast in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.
Paul again says while we were ungodly and powerless,Christ died for us. And he says while we were God's enemies we were reconciled. Paul also goes on to say we were dead in trepasses
Yes and it means what it says, but don't read things into the text what it not there. Mankind was reconciled to God through Jesus Christ and He indeed died for us while we were yet sinners. Here is a parallel passage...
2Co 5:18 And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;
The reconciliation here is reconciliation in a general sense in that man is already reconciled to God through Jesus Christ. Yet that does not preclude having to ENTER INTO THIS RECONCILIATION via abiding in the Spirit of life in Jesus Christ. Paul goes on to say...
2Co 5:20 Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.
See it is not a done deal. We have to access it, thus go back to Romans 5 where it says this...
Rom 5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:
Rom 5:2 By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.
The reconciliation has to be accessed through faith. The kind of faith is that of Abraham, for Paul had just written what we call Chapter 4 in which he painstakingly DESCRIBED this faith.
Abraham's faith was a faith which had a WALK (Rom 4:12). We can expand on that walk by looking at Heb 11:8 where faith is connected to obedience. In Joh 8:39 we see that Abraham's faith also manifested works. Thus the faith by which we access the grace in which we stand is FAITHFULNESS to God. In other words one is not in rebellion but rather is in full submission to the lead of God. This is why there is no condemnation to those who walk after the Spirit (Rom 8:1-4) for those are ABIDING IN CHRIST and it is THROUGH CHRIST that we are reconciled to God.
What the false teachers do is twist "abiding in Christ" to be a purely "forensic" or "positional" abiding as opposed to a MANIFEST REALITY. When one is TRULY abiding in Christ they are walking as He walked in that they keep His commandments.
1Jn 2:3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
1Jn 2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
1Jn 2:5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.
1Jn 2:6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.
The love of God is PERFECTED in us who abide in Christ. This nonsense of perpetual sinfulness is pure deception. People need to wake up to the truth and shed their simple mindedness.
Ephesians 2
2 As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, [SUP]2 [/SUP]in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient. [SUP]3 [/SUP]All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our flesh[SUP][a][/SUP] and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature deserving of wrath. [SUP]4 [/SUP]But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, [SUP]5 [/SUP]made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved. [SUP]6 [/SUP]And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, [SUP]7 [/SUP]in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace,expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus. [SUP]8 [/SUP]For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— [SUP]9 [/SUP]not by works, so that no one can boast. [SUP]10 [/SUP]For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works,which God prepared in advance for us to do.
So why does Paul say he is unable to and also we were dead unless there is an underlying problem? So is Paul mistaken,confused or lying?
When God raises us up it is indeed from being in a dead state. The forsaking of sin in repentance does not equate being raised up. We don't raise ourselves up, God does it. Genuine repentance is a CONDITION which places us in a position where God will raise us up. Hence...
Act 3:19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;
We don't refresh ourselves. We repent and convert (due to being convicted by the Holy Spirit which is in the world) and thus diligently seek the face of God pleading to be reconciled. God gives grace to the humble, thus...
Mat 5:3 Blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
Mat 5:4 Blessed are they that mourn: for they shall be comforted.
Mat 5:5 Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth.
Mat 5:6 Blessed are they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled.
We approach God through a broken repentance with faith. God then does His supernatural work in us and brings us from darkness to light.
Eph 2:5 refers to the quickening and connects that to grace...
Eph 2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved
It is by "faith" that we enter into this quickening. The quickening is simply the act of God raising us up to newness of life, basically our spirit which was dead to God comes alive and we are filled with the love of God. We enter into the Spirit of life in Jesus Christ. This is being born again or born from above. It is a real encounter with the living God.
No-one experiences the above if they are still in rebellion. God does not regenerate rebels. The rebellion must first be forsaken in repentance. This is why the modern gospel is a complete farce because it totally negates true regeneration.
Satan has shifted focus from the real dynamic of repentance and faith which is how someone approaches God and replaces it with the perversion of a positional justification based on the "Finished Work Of Christ" as presented through the Penal Substitution doctrine (ie. Jesus paid your sin debt.)
It is an insidious deception which leaves converts convinced they are saved while they remain dead to God. They may feel all buzzed up from an emotional experience but NOTHING changed in the heart, they are still defiled, carnal and sold under sin. They just received a satanic inoculation against the real Gospel.
If you need any clarification I am only to happy to answer legitimate questions. I know my language probably sounds chinese a lot of the time due that I don't hold to the professing churches definitions of concepts like faith, grace, salvation, sin, and repentance.
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Skinski quote
Sarah, the wretch of Romans 7 is an example of a man who knows the law, knows that the law is good, yet is enslaved to his carnal passions. Thus he is carnal and sold under sin and cannot do the right thing. It is an example of wanting to overcome the flesh in the flesh. This man is under strong conviction and is seeking deliverance.
You see his mind serves the law of God in the sense that his mind agrees with it. Yet his flesh serves the law of sin, in other words he lives in accordance with his base carnal desires. If you read Romans 8:2 Paul teaches that it is the Spirit of life in Jesus Christ which sets one free from the law of sin and death. That is the key! Instead of attempting to defeat sin in the flesh, it has to be defeated in the spirit, hence this is why it is in receiving the implanted word that our souls can be saved (Jam 1:21). When we turn ourselves over to God having FORSAKEN SELF in repentance it is the power of God that works through us. This is where victory is found, yet this power can only be found in yielding to God completely. This is why Jesus preached REPENTANCE. For it is in repentance where the old man is put to death through a broken godly sorrow and a willingness to submit is born.
Surprise on this we agree the only way we can break sin is by the power of the Holy Spirit when we are born again. We have to recognize we need a savior to take away God's wrath for our sin.
What the false teachers do is twist "abiding in Christ" to be a purely "forensic" or "positional" abiding as opposed to a MANIFEST REALITY. When one is TRULY abiding in Christ they are walking as He walked in that they keep His commandments.
While I do agree it is forensic there must be the evidence of a changed life. They go hand in hand. God's wrath of sin had to go somewhere. It either is poured out on the sinner or it had to be poured out on someone else. So where did God's wrath go if it was not poured out on Christ?
Satan has shifted focus from the real dynamic of repentance and faith which is how someone approaches God and replaces it with the perversion of a positional justification based on the "Finished Work Of Christ" as presented through the Penal Substitution doctrine (ie. Jesus paid your sin debt.)
It is an insidious deception which leaves converts convinced they are saved while they remain dead to God. They may feel all buzzed up from an emotional experience but NOTHING changed in the heart, they are still defiled, carnal and sold under sin. They just received a satanic inoculation against the real Gospel.
I see Penal Substitution as only half of the equation,one can not leave out the fact that Jesus did say to obey. And He took it down to two commands Love the Lord your God with all your heart and mind and your strength, and the second is to love your neighbor as yourself. These are the sum of the law and the prophets. If you do these two you can not sin.
I believe the worst thing that someone ever came up with was the sinners prayer. Say a little prayer and your good to go. Never mind it's not scriptural at all. Never mind the fact there is no evidence of a changed heart and mind. Feelings can never take the place of facts.
Sarah, the wretch of Romans 7 is an example of a man who knows the law, knows that the law is good, yet is enslaved to his carnal passions. Thus he is carnal and sold under sin and cannot do the right thing. It is an example of wanting to overcome the flesh in the flesh. This man is under strong conviction and is seeking deliverance.
You see his mind serves the law of God in the sense that his mind agrees with it. Yet his flesh serves the law of sin, in other words he lives in accordance with his base carnal desires. If you read Romans 8:2 Paul teaches that it is the Spirit of life in Jesus Christ which sets one free from the law of sin and death. That is the key! Instead of attempting to defeat sin in the flesh, it has to be defeated in the spirit, hence this is why it is in receiving the implanted word that our souls can be saved (Jam 1:21). When we turn ourselves over to God having FORSAKEN SELF in repentance it is the power of God that works through us. This is where victory is found, yet this power can only be found in yielding to God completely. This is why Jesus preached REPENTANCE. For it is in repentance where the old man is put to death through a broken godly sorrow and a willingness to submit is born.
Surprise on this we agree the only way we can break sin is by the power of the Holy Spirit when we are born again. We have to recognize we need a savior to take away God's wrath for our sin.
What the false teachers do is twist "abiding in Christ" to be a purely "forensic" or "positional" abiding as opposed to a MANIFEST REALITY. When one is TRULY abiding in Christ they are walking as He walked in that they keep His commandments.
While I do agree it is forensic there must be the evidence of a changed life. They go hand in hand. God's wrath of sin had to go somewhere. It either is poured out on the sinner or it had to be poured out on someone else. So where did God's wrath go if it was not poured out on Christ?
Satan has shifted focus from the real dynamic of repentance and faith which is how someone approaches God and replaces it with the perversion of a positional justification based on the "Finished Work Of Christ" as presented through the Penal Substitution doctrine (ie. Jesus paid your sin debt.)
It is an insidious deception which leaves converts convinced they are saved while they remain dead to God. They may feel all buzzed up from an emotional experience but NOTHING changed in the heart, they are still defiled, carnal and sold under sin. They just received a satanic inoculation against the real Gospel.
I see Penal Substitution as only half of the equation,one can not leave out the fact that Jesus did say to obey. And He took it down to two commands Love the Lord your God with all your heart and mind and your strength, and the second is to love your neighbor as yourself. These are the sum of the law and the prophets. If you do these two you can not sin.
I believe the worst thing that someone ever came up with was the sinners prayer. Say a little prayer and your good to go. Never mind it's not scriptural at all. Never mind the fact there is no evidence of a changed heart and mind. Feelings can never take the place of facts.
Salvation is not forensic in any way and this Scripture is absolute proof of this fact...
1Jn 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
1Jn 3:10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.
This is because salvation is representative of an actual spiritual condition which necessitates manifest outward conduct. If one is genuinely abiding in Christ they are not sinning as in CHOOSING to do evil (selfishness) in rebellion to God.
Those born of God keep themselves, if one does not keep themselves then they are not born of God.
1Jn 5:18 We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.
The Bible is so clear on these things yet they are mostly rejected by carnal professing Christian's because of an aversion to forsake carnal pleasures. We are to FLEE iniquity and many are simply not willing to do so.
I am happy to hear you don't support the sinners prayer but unfortunately you uphold Penal Substitution. I encourage you to really dig into the Bible and ascertain for yourself if Penal Substitution is in fact taught in the Bible.
Like I have stated previously, Penal Substitution perverts the true basis of justification which is that of being of a genuine faith that works by love whereby one abides in the Spirit of life in Jesus Christ and has been reconciled through the purging of sin by the blood.
Faith that works by love is thrown out the window under Penal Substitution and is replaced by a nebulous self identification with a judicial swap which supposedly took place. Those who buy into the Penal model deception are thus conditioned the dynamic of an obedient working faith (as it pertains to salvation) because to them that would be ADDING to the judicial swap. Thus Satan deceives people into rejecting the true Ministry of Reconciliation even they they may "profess Jesus and His death."
1Jn 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
1Jn 3:10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.
This is because salvation is representative of an actual spiritual condition which necessitates manifest outward conduct. If one is genuinely abiding in Christ they are not sinning as in CHOOSING to do evil (selfishness) in rebellion to God.
Those born of God keep themselves, if one does not keep themselves then they are not born of God.
1Jn 5:18 We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.
The Bible is so clear on these things yet they are mostly rejected by carnal professing Christian's because of an aversion to forsake carnal pleasures. We are to FLEE iniquity and many are simply not willing to do so.
I am happy to hear you don't support the sinners prayer but unfortunately you uphold Penal Substitution. I encourage you to really dig into the Bible and ascertain for yourself if Penal Substitution is in fact taught in the Bible.
Like I have stated previously, Penal Substitution perverts the true basis of justification which is that of being of a genuine faith that works by love whereby one abides in the Spirit of life in Jesus Christ and has been reconciled through the purging of sin by the blood.
Faith that works by love is thrown out the window under Penal Substitution and is replaced by a nebulous self identification with a judicial swap which supposedly took place. Those who buy into the Penal model deception are thus conditioned the dynamic of an obedient working faith (as it pertains to salvation) because to them that would be ADDING to the judicial swap. Thus Satan deceives people into rejecting the true Ministry of Reconciliation even they they may "profess Jesus and His death."
Sarah you stated,
It didn't go anywhere. God does not have to pour out His wrath and nor do you when you forgive someone.
It is a fallacy to believe that God's wrath must be satisfied whether He has to punish you or punish His Son in your stead. Punishing the innocent in order to excuse the guilty IS NOT JUST. Jesus bore our sins, we esteemed Him stricken of God, yes! Yet the Bible does not teach that Jesus "bore the full wrath of God due the sinner." The Bible does not say anything even remotely close to that. Theologians say that and they are wrong.
Jesus was a "sin offering" and not a "wrath substitute."
The "wrath substitute doctrine" is an invention of the Reformers. It was NEVER taught before approximately 400 years ago.
Penal substitution - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
It didn't go anywhere. God does not have to pour out His wrath and nor do you when you forgive someone.
It is a fallacy to believe that God's wrath must be satisfied whether He has to punish you or punish His Son in your stead. Punishing the innocent in order to excuse the guilty IS NOT JUST. Jesus bore our sins, we esteemed Him stricken of God, yes! Yet the Bible does not teach that Jesus "bore the full wrath of God due the sinner." The Bible does not say anything even remotely close to that. Theologians say that and they are wrong.
Jesus was a "sin offering" and not a "wrath substitute."
The "wrath substitute doctrine" is an invention of the Reformers. It was NEVER taught before approximately 400 years ago.
Penal substitution - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
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