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zone

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#1
Questions & Answers » Ask the Rabbi » Latest Questions » The Details

Where Are the 600,000 Letters of the Torah?

By Malkie Janowski


I have been told that that there are 600,000 letters in the Torah scroll, and I always understood this to be the case. However, I was recently made aware that if one actually counts the letters, one would find that there are just over half that amount of letters in a standard Torah scroll. How do we reconcile the number 600,000 with the more accurate count?

Response:

There are 304,805 plus letters in the Torah, but as you noted, we often hear of the 600,000 letters in the Torah. Several non-standard methods of counting are offered to arrive at the number 600,000.

One is given by Rabbi Shneur Zalman of Liadi, the founder of Chabad. The count includes vowel letters that are not included in the text, but are implied in the pronunciation of the word. If they were all to be written out, there would be many more letters in a Torah scroll.

Another view explains that the count of 304,805 letters includes only those that we see, black ink against white parchment. But there are also the letters in white against black. The heavenly, non-physical version of the Torah is described as black fire on white fire, and both the black and white are equally meaningful. The black are the letters we see, while the white, the inverse space between the black, are the letters we don't see. The count of 600,000 includes both the black and the white letters.

Knowing this, there's an interesting law about the writing in a Torah scroll that now makes a lot of sense: If any letter has no space around it, the entire Torah is invalid, even though all the letters are complete. According to what we've just said, this is easy to understand: Although the revealed black letters would be complete, a hidden white letter would be missing.

There's yet more significance to the idea of inverse letters. The 600,000 letters correspond to the 600,000 souls of Israel. Although there are many more than 600,000 Jews, there are 600,000 general souls which divide into the individual sparks that become each of our souls. Some are of the black letters; their place in Torah is clear. It holds their life and purpose. The black stands out in strong contrast to the surrounding space.

Those of the inverse, white letters may not see where they fit into Torah. The space around the letter isn't seen in its own right, it simply enables the black letter to be seen. Perhaps a soul is here to allow another to shine, but that soul is integral. If a black letter lacks the surrounding white letters, the entire scroll is invalid.

.....

600,000 x 10 [completion] = 6,000,000

Where Are the 600,000 Letters of the Torah? - Ask the Rabbi - click
 

zone

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Jun 13, 2010
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#2
1869 New York Times: 6,000,000 Jews in the world, half in Europe NYT







1889 New York Times: 6,000,000 Jews in the world, 2/3rds in Russia NYT





etc.

1891 New York Times: 6,000,000 Jews in Russia NYT

1896 New York Times: 6,000,000 Jews in Russia NYT

1900 New York Times: 6,000,000 living arguments in favour of Zionism NYT

1902 New York Times: 6,000,000 Jews in Russia NYT

1904 New York Times: 6,000,000 Jews in Russia, Zionism & East Africa NYT

1905 New York Times: 6,000,000 Russian Jews and Zionism NYT

1905 New York Times: 6,000,000 Jews expelled from Russia between 1890-1902 NYT

1906 New York Times: 6,000,000 Jews will be massacred in Russia NYT

1907 New York Times: 6,000,000 Jews can't emigrate NYT

1910 New York Times: 6,000,000 Jews in Russia NYT

1910 New York Times: 6,000,000 Jews in Russia in a sad plight NYT

1911 New York Times: 6,000,000 Jews in Russia are persecuted NYT

1911 New York Times: 6,000,000 Jews in Russia have no rights at all NYT

1911 New York Times: 6,000,000 Jews in Russia to be massacred NYT

1911 New York Times: 6,000,000 Jews in Russia in real peril NYT

1914 New York Times: 6,000,000 Jews within warzone NYT

1915 New York Times: 6,000,000 Jews within warzone NYT

1916 New York Times: 6,000,000 Jews in Poland ruined NYT

1918 New York Times: 6,000,000 Jews need help NYT

1919 New York Times: 6,000,000 Jews in peril in Ukraine & Poland NYT

1919 New York Times: 6,000,000 Jews left in Europe NYT

1919 The American Hebrew: 6,000,000 Jews will died in a holocaust

1920 New York Times: 6,000,000 Jews menaced by typhus NYT

1920 New York Times: 6,000,000 Jews sufferers of war NYT

1920 New York Times: 6,000,000 Jews facing starvation NYT

1920 New York Times: 6,000,000 Jews threatened by famine & disease NYT

1920 The Toronto World: 6,000,000 Jews facing death

1921 New York Times: 6,000,000 Jews facing extermination in Russia NYT

1933 New York Times: 6,000,000 Jews involved in relief work NYT

1935 New York Times: 6,000,000 Jews defended by Congress NYT

1936 New York Times: 6,000,000 Jews represented at Jewish Congress NYT

1938 New York Times: 6,000,000 Jews dying in Europe NYT

1938 New York Times: 6,000,000 Jews victims in Europe NYT

1938 New York Times: 6,000,000 Jews victims in Eastern & Central Europe NYT

1939 New York Times: 6,000,000 Jews can’t be evacuated NYT

1945 New York Times: 6,000,000 Jews killed (4mnths before end of WW2) NYT

1945 New York Times: 6,000,000 Jews were under Nazi rule, only 1,200,000 survived NYT

1945 New York Times: 6,000,000 Jews, only 1,000,000 still alive (3 months before VE Day) NYT
 

zone

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Jun 13, 2010
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#3
Bamidbar(Numbers 1:1-4:20)

The Nation of Israel

This week, we begin a new book, the Book of Bamidbar; it begins:

And God spoke to Moshe in the Sinai Desert in the Tent of Meeting, on the first of the second month in the second year after leaving Egypt, saying ..." (Bamidbar 1:1)

So we see that the Jews are still in the desert, awaiting their glorious march to the Promised Land. Of course, we know how this ends -- they will never enter the Land of Israel, that privilege falling to their children in the following generation.

The Torah continues:

"Count the heads of all the community of the Children of Israel, according to families, to their fathers households; count the males ... from the age of twenty and above, all those who would go out for battle in Israel." (Numbers 1:2-3)

The Divine imperative to count the people at this juncture must be understood. This is not the first time that the Jews have been counted since leaving Egypt. Rashi explains:

Out of love [God] counts them at every point. When they left Egypt they were counted, when they fell (died) in the (sin of) the Golden Calf, they were counted to know how many remained. When it was time for the Shechinah, God's Presence, to envelop them they were counted; on the first of the month of Nissan the Tabernacle was erected, and on the first of the month of Iyar they were counted. (Rashi 1:1)

Rashi is concerned with the motivation to count the Jews yet again, this being the third time within a year that a census is taken, and Rashi explains that God's love for the Jews is the reason why He counts us time and time again. While not discounting the explanation of Rashi, I believe there is another explanation, which may be connected with the similarity in the results of each count.

* * *

THE SAME RESULT
Each time the people are counted, the result is 600,000, more or less; in fact, the number 600,000 has become a descriptive term for the totality of the Jewish people. On a mystical level, the number 600,000 is identified with the number of souls comprising the Nation of Israel. The Talmud teaches that the arrival of the Messiah will transpire when all these souls are "complete."

The son of David will not come until all the souls in the body are complete. (Yevamot 62a)

In fact, the source goes even further, implying that the Nation of Israel is one body with 600,000 parts. That poses one obvious problem: virtually every generation from the Exodus onward outnumbers 600,000, yet this number is still used to describe the totality of the Jewish people.

Are we to assume that others -- men over 60 or under 20, or women -- were of no significance?

Even in the desert there were more than 600,000 people; there, the number 600,000 refers to the number of men between the ages of 20 and 60. All others were not included in the tally. Are we to assume that others -- men over 60 or under 20, or women -- were of no significance?

The Zohar carries this numeric parallel even further, stating that there are 600,000 letters in the Torah which are meant to parallel the 600,000 souls. (See Zohar Hadash Shir HaShirim 74d.)

Another mystical source, the Migaleh Amukot, expands on this idea:

Every one of Israel has for his soul one letter of the 600,000 letters of the Torah ... Indeed, Israel is an acronym for yesh shishim ribo otiyot laTorah, "there are 600,000 letters in the Torah." (Section 186)

One difficulty which arises with these teachings is the fact that when the letters of the Torah are counted, there are found to be only 304,805, only slightly more than half of the number we expected to find. One way of resolving this contradiction would be to cite another mystical tradition which is found in the introduction to the Ramban's Commentary to the Torah (for the actual source see Yerushalmi Shkalim 6:1) which refers to a primordial Torah which preceded the creation of the world which was written in black and white fire.

* * *

BLACK AND WHITE FIRE
We may conclude that the letters that we see on the parchment represent the black fire, while the parchment on which the words are written, or the space between the letters, represent the white fire. Thus, we may account for the missing letters with these white letters, which would fill in the count to 600,000.

Alternatively, others explain that many letters of the Torah are compounds of other letters; for example, an aleph can be broken down to two yuds and a vav. (For a full discussion on this topic see R' Reuven Margoliot in "Hamikra vi Hamosora" chapter 12.)

The Jewish people as a whole equal 600,000 souls, with one letter of the Torah for each soul.

When we merge these teachings we conclude that the Jewish people as a whole equal 600,000, with one letter of the Torah for each soul. This explanation may help resolve our problem with the number of people in reality far surpassing 600,000. We may now conclude that there are 600,000 souls -- even though there are more than 600,000 people: more than one person can share the same "soul root."

The people who parallel the letters in the Torah are actually greater in numbers, while the number of letters is actually less. It may take many people working together to accomplish a single aspect of the Torah. The number 600,000, then, is an expression of the totality of the Nation of Israel in its spiritual capacity, which in a sense mirrors the Torah.

That being so, we can appreciate the need for the various countings. The first counting takes place after leaving Egypt, at the moment the Jews become a nation.

Joseph and the brothers entered Egypt as a family, a clan, perhaps a tribe, but it was a nation that marched out. We have seen (in Parshat Vayetze) that part of the disagreement between Jacob on the one hand, and Shimon and Levi on the other, was their reaction to the rape of Dina. Jacob saw his children as a family, or tribe, while Shimon and Levi saw them as a nation, or at least as the forerunners of a nation, whose actions affect the collective consciousness of future generations.

* * *

COLLECTIVE CONSCIOUSNESS
The Yalkut Shimoni spells this out in clear terms which have direct impact on our topic:

Jacob said to Shimon and Levi, "You have endangered me for I am small in number .. There is a tradition among the Canaanites that in the future they will fall into the hands of my children." But God said to him, "Not until the land is liberated and inherited by 600,000." (Yalkut Shimoni Vayishlach section 135)

Not until the Jews are a bona fide nation -- represented by 600,000 -- will the Land of Israel be theirs. The Jews relied upon the Exodus to indicate that national identity had been achieved. Or, in the words of a different passage in the Yalkut:

Leaving Egypt was with 600,000; entering the Land was with 600,000; furthermore, the Messianic Age will consist of 600,000. (Yalkut Shimoni Hoshea 518)

The Yalkut is teaching that the spiritual identity of the Jewish people is made of 600,000 parts; therefore, until this identity had been achieved, the Exodus from Egypt was an impossibility. Furthermore, entering the Land of Israel in either Biblical or eschatological times is only possible if the Jews number at least 600,000.

It is fascinating to note that in 1948 there were approximately 600,000 Jews in the land.

It is fascinating to note that in 1948 there were approximately 600,000 Jews in the land, and it was not until close to 1967 that there were 600,000 males of fighting age. In accordance with a teaching in the Zohar that Jerusalem will only be united when 600,000 males are in the land.

For this same reason, the Jews were counted after the sin of the Golden Calf. If 600,000 did not remain, those who survived would not be considered the Nation of Israel until they once again numbered 600,000; the historical clock would have been put on hold.

Quite simply, the Jews cannot enter the Land of Israel unless they number at least 600,000. By this point in history, the Torah had been given, the Tabernacle built, and the Shechinah rested on the people. Nothing else needed completion except for the march into the Holy Land.

Of course, that is not the way that the story unfolds, but the further wanderings in the desert were not part of the original plan, and came only as a result of further intrigue in the desert.

* * *

THE FORMATION OF THE MARCH
Another teaching in this week's Torah portion provides insight. We read a description of the formation in which the Jews are to encamp and march. The model for the formation was taken from the only other time that the people marched to Israel, following the death of Jacob. According to the Midrash, on his deathbed Jacob commanded his children:

"Take heed that no stranger touches the bed so that the Shechinah not be expelled, rather in this particular order you are to carry me ... this is the manner which you are destined to do in the desert ..." Bereishit Rabba 100:2)

The parallel between Jacob's death scene and the formation in the desert is highly significant. On the basic level, this confirms that the time to march to Israel has indeed arrived, therefore God reveals at this juncture the particular formation conceived by Jacob.

Furthermore, there is a fascinating parallel to be drawn between Jacob and the Ark containing the Tablets. Ya'akov is described as yoshev ohalim, "one who dwells in the tents," a description understood to portray Jacob as representing Torah. Now, even in death, Jacob is compared to a Torah scroll, just as his coffin, his ark, is compared to the Ark of the Covenant in the Tabernacle.

In this Midrash Jacob represents the Torah in a very real sense. On a deeper level, Jacob's insistence that no stranger join the entourage seems unusual, but when we recall that this march in the time of Jacob serves as the prototype for the march in the future -- of the 600,000 Jews, of all of Israel, the parallel becomes instructive.

No strangers are to join the ranks, for this would cause the Shechinah to be expelled. This is all the more poignant when we look at the larger picture. The nation which consists of 600,000 souls is paralleled to the Torah which has 600,000 letters. A Torah with too many or too few letters is invalid. Even one half of a letter gone amiss renders the Torah unfit for use.

So, too, with the Nation of Israel. With either one person missing or one person too many, the glorious march to Israel cannot begin. One extra person can have severe mystical implications.

M'oray Ha'Aish Parshat Bamidbar: The Nation of Israel < click




The Talmud teaches that the arrival of the Messiah will transpire when all these souls are "complete."

The son of David will not come until all the souls in the body are complete. (Yevamot 62a)
 

zone

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Jun 13, 2010
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#4
THE MIXED MULTITUDE
We are taught that a large number of Israelites perished in Egypt during the plague of darkness. Only those whose souls paralleled one of the letters of the Torah left Egypt. Only those souls can enter Israel. The traditional sources point out that there was an erev rav, "a mixed multitude" or "hangers on," who did leave Egypt with the Jews. Apparently, this is precisely what concerned Jacob. The tragic consequences of the existence of the erev rav are well known -- the Golden Calf, as well as other indiscretions, are blamed on them.

One extra or missing letter -- one extra or missing soul -- and the Divine plan may be altered.

Jacob, who represents Torah, is concerned lest an extra letter find its way into the walking, breathing entity known as Am Israel, the Nation of Israel. One extra or missing letter and the Divine plan may be altered, just as one letter, or even part of one letter, missing can invalidate a divine book.

The erev rav did join and march with the Nation of Israel, and the Divine plan was changed, but that story is told in the following Torah portions. Our lesson for this week is that many Jews are needed to realize the Divine plan; there are indeed far more that 600,000 Jews, and all are vitally necessary for the creation of a whole entity.

Indeed, there are 600,000 core souls who represent the division of labor, the different responsibilities, and ultimately the different aspects of the Divine spirit contained in each one uniquely. Only a merger of these entities will allow the Jewish people to realize their Divine mission. For the Jewish people are a reflection of the Torah, with its 600,000 entities.

The Torah is the aspect of the mind of God which He reveals to us. The Zohar encapsulates this teaching in one sentence: "The Nation of Israel, the Torah and God are all one."

When the Jewish people reflect the Torah, which in turn reflects God, our mission can be accomplished.

M'oray Ha'Aish Parshat Bamidbar: The Nation of Israel < click
 

zone

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Jun 13, 2010
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#5
600,000 Jewish Souls

Question:
I was told about 600,000 Jewish souls & that there are only 600,000 Jewish souls. Is this a fact & could you explain it. I don't understand how only 600,000 souls are possible with so many more Jewish people in the world. Please explain and thank you.



AskTheRabbi.org answered:
Your question is fascinating and I will try to share some of what I have learned on the subject.

According to the Kabbalists, there were 600,000 Jewish souls that stood at Sinai to receive the Torah. They comprise the "Body" of the unified Jewish People. Together they represented the complete creation of Mankind (before the sin) by God on the sixth day of Creation.

You ask: What about today and the millions of Jews that live today in the world? How do the numbers fit?

The answer is that each Jew has a Jewish soul, but not necessarily an entire soul of someone who stood at Sinai. We each have at least part of one of the the souls of the people there, and possibly various parts of different people who stood at Sinai. Pieces of souls. However, the pieces that we have were given to us by God in order that we have a unique purpose in our lives.

This may sound strange, and I admit that it is beyond my comprehension, but it is our tradition, and the classical Jewish sources and teachings - from generation to generation - back this up. I personally do not feel it is something to dwell on, except to the extent that it will help us come closer to understanding God and our purpose in our lives.

600,000 Jewish Souls - Just Asked - The 'Ask The Rabbi' Service from GatewaysOnline.com < click
 

zone

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Jun 13, 2010
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#6
Babylonian Talmud: Tractate Gittin

Folio 58a

Rab Judah reported Samuel as saying in the name of Rabban Simeon b. Gamaliel; What is signified by the verse, Mine eye affecteth my soul, because of all the daughters of my city?7 There were four hundred synagogues in the city of Bethar, and in every one were four hundred teachers of children, and each one had under him four hundred pupils,8 and when the enemy entered there they pierced them with their staves, and when the enemy prevailed and captured them, they wrapped them in their scrolls and burnt them with fire.

Babylonian Talmud: Gittin 58 < click


does anyone care to work out the math on this?


four hundred synagogues
in every one were four hundred teachers
each one had under him four hundred pupils

how many people is that who were "pierced.....with their staves, and when the enemy prevailed and captured them, they wrapped them in their scrolls and burnt them with fire."?

400 x 400 x 400 = ??


The Talmud (תלמוד) is considered an authoritative record of rabbinic discussions on Jewish law, Jewish ethics, customs, legends and stories.


now clearly this story is absurd.
isn't it?
 
K

kenisyes

Guest
#7
I don't care how many they have, I have it on good authority that only 144,000 of them are going to get saved.

Besides, don't they read 2 Sam 24 and I Chr. 21? Look what happened to David when he tried to count how many Jews were in Israel.
 

zone

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Jun 13, 2010
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#8
I don't care how many they have, I have it on good authority that only 144,000 of them are going to get saved.

Besides, don't they read 2 Sam 24 and I Chr. 21? Look what happened to David when he tried to count how many Jews were in Israel.
ken, what's 400 x 400 x 400?
 

zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
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#9
NAZIS SHRUNK HEADS, MADE SOAP FROM HUMAN FAT, AND LAMPSHADES OUT OF SKIN

didn't they?

that's what we were shown.








The staff member, Suri Roth, found that judges in the Nuremberg Trials accepted the testimony from someone who said he had worked at a laboratory that was involved in the production of soap that contained human fat. A bar of such soap was actually introduced as evidence in the trials. Five years ago, that soap was tested by Poland’s National Remembrance Institute, which announced that it did indeed contain human fat.

But Roth said Holocaust experts today believe that only a small amount of soap containing human fat was ever produced.
Holocaust historian Deborah Lipstadt told The Jewish Week that “there is no proof that the Nazis made Jews into soap in a mass fashion. … There were attempts, but it was never practical.”

She noted, however, that one museum, the Chamber of the Holocaust on Mt. Zion in Israel, actually displays a bar of soap purportedly made by the Nazis from human fat. The museum, maintained by the Diaspora Yeshiva, is located in a cellar and built in 1949. Lipstadt said she knows of no other museum with such a display.

The Virginia Holocaust Museum in Richmond shows footage of a Russian film that was played at the Nuremberg Trials. It shows Russian soldiers coming upon a skeleton in a vat at the Gdansk Anatomical Institute, from which it was deduced that the Nazis used human fat to make soap.

Jay Ipson, the museum’s founder, said he knows questions have been raised about the veracity of the soap story and that all he is doing is showing visitors what was presented at the Nuremberg trial.

A survivor, Ipson said that after the war many survivors had bars of this soap that they believed contained human remains. He said one survivor who spoke at his synagogue a few years ago recalled seeing survivors burying a number of bars of soap in a cemetery in Munich.

But Peter Black, senior historian at the United States Holocaust Memorial and Museum in Washington, D.C., said questions about the soap are frequently asked by visitors and that his answer is, “It didn’t happen.”

“There is nothing we can hold our hats on that would indicate the Nazis tried this even experimentally,” he said.

Asked about the Nuremberg Trials, Black said the evidence presented there “gave the rumor some legs.” In addition to the Russian film, two British prisoners of war testified that they worked at the anatomical institute, but Black said their testimony was “inconsistent.” One of them gave the court the “recipe” that was in the institute for making the soap — and there was no mention of using human remains.

Black said he read the report of the tests conducted five years ago in Warsaw, but he noted, “The forensic work was never released.”

Regarding the initials “RIF” on the soap bars, Black said it is widely believed this stood for, “Jews rest in peace.” In fact, he said, it was the initials of the soap manufacturer, Reich Center for Industrial Fat Provisioning.

“The Nazis did a lot of things that were very ghoulish, but for some reason the shock value of the soap, of leather goods and lampshades made of human products capture the imagination,” Black said.

(Mark Jacobsen’s recent book “The Lampshade” is an account of the author’s attempt to authenticate whether a lampshade made from human skin could be traced back to the Nazis.)

Black said there is no proof that such objects contain human product “and if it does, we don’t know it is from Jews. … And the difficulty is tying it back to the Nazis. There is nobody who was close enough to have seen the process. There were stories in Romania, Auschwitz and Danzig. But if you follow them to their source, there is nothing.”

Holocaust-era Soap Find Raises New Questions | The Jewish Week < click


.......


all proven false, and admitted false by Holocaust Historians.

debunked LONG ago.

so why were we told it happened, and why were we shown the "evidence"?

and why do we STILL believe it?
 

zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
27,214
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#10
................................

Questions & Answers » Ask the Rabbi » Latest Questions » The Details

Where Are the 600,000 Letters of the Torah?

By Malkie Janowski


I have been told that that there are 600,000 letters in the Torah scroll, and I always understood this to be the case. However, I was recently made aware that if one actually counts the letters, one would find that there are just over half that amount of letters in a standard Torah scroll. How do we reconcile the number 600,000 with the more accurate count?

Response:

There are 304,805 plus letters in the Torah, but as you noted, we often hear of the 600,000 letters in the Torah. Several non-standard methods of counting are offered to arrive at the number 600,000.

One is given by Rabbi Shneur Zalman of Liadi, the founder of Chabad. The count includes vowel letters that are not included in the text, but are implied in the pronunciation of the word. If they were all to be written out, there would be many more letters in a Torah scroll.

Another view explains that the count of 304,805 letters includes only those that we see, black ink against white parchment. But there are also the letters in white against black. The heavenly, non-physical version of the Torah is described as black fire on white fire, and both the black and white are equally meaningful. The black are the letters we see, while the white, the inverse space between the black, are the letters we don't see. The count of 600,000 includes both the black and the white letters.

Knowing this, there's an interesting law about the writing in a Torah scroll that now makes a lot of sense: If any letter has no space around it, the entire Torah is invalid, even though all the letters are complete. According to what we've just said, this is easy to understand: Although the revealed black letters would be complete, a hidden white letter would be missing.

There's yet more significance to the idea of inverse letters. The 600,000 letters correspond to the 600,000 souls of Israel. Although there are many more than 600,000 Jews, there are 600,000 general souls which divide into the individual sparks that become each of our souls. Some are of the black letters; their place in Torah is clear. It holds their life and purpose. The black stands out in strong contrast to the surrounding space.

Those of the inverse, white letters may not see where they fit into Torah. The space around the letter isn't seen in its own right, it simply enables the black letter to be seen. Perhaps a soul is here to allow another to shine, but that soul is integral. If a black letter lacks the surrounding white letters, the entire scroll is invalid.

.....

600,000 x 10 [completion] = 6,000,000

Where Are the 600,000 Letters of the Torah? - Ask the Rabbi - click
 
K

kenisyes

Guest
#11
ken, what's 400 x 400 x 400?
You had to ask? 64,000,000 That's 64 million. There's another order of magnitude hiding in a split up soul somewhere, I guess. It's a good thing I'm not a rabbi, I don't have a clue how to account for the extra zeros.

Did you know many African tribes cannot count past 5? They go 1,2,3,4,5 a bunch. I notice the same difficulty translating the Hebrew word for "myriad". That's probably the real problem here; they can't count that high. In about 500BC, Archimedes proposed the thesis that there is no limit on how high people can count. His famous book is called The Sand-Reckoner of Archimedes: The Sand-Reckoner. Up until his book, it was assumed, that since we are slaves of God, and in charge of earth, we cannot conceive or name numbers higher than the number of grains of sand in the visible world, that our minds cannot fathom it. He simply invented new names for big numbers, but the result was earth-shattering at the time. If you read it, you will see how much difficulty he had bending the Greek language to fit his purpose. Once you realized they assumed that there is a number beyond the human mind's ability to conceive, these obvious inconsistencies to us become more understandable.
 

zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
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#12
You had to ask? 64,000,000 That's 64 million. There's another order of magnitude hiding in a split up soul somewhere, I guess. It's a good thing I'm not a rabbi, I don't have a clue how to account for the extra zeros.

Did you know many African tribes cannot count past 5? They go 1,2,3,4,5 a bunch. I notice the same difficulty translating the Hebrew word for "myriad". That's probably the real problem here; they can't count that high. In about 500BC, Archimedes proposed the thesis that there is no limit on how high people can count. His famous book is called The Sand-Reckoner of Archimedes: The Sand-Reckoner. Up until his book, it was assumed, that since we are slaves of God, and in charge of earth, we cannot conceive or name numbers higher than the number of grains of sand in the visible world, that our minds cannot fathom it. He simply invented new names for big numbers, but the result was earth-shattering at the time. If you read it, you will see how much difficulty he had bending the Greek language to fit his purpose. Once you realized they assumed that there is a number beyond the human mind's ability to conceive, these obvious inconsistencies to us become more understandable.
right.
i get all that.
the point is, these narratives and memes and fables are embedded in minds prepared for it.
if this stuff was restricted to the unfortunate victims of such occult delusion that would be bad enough.

when the thing takes on a life of its own, or is given power and becomes an engine for group think (global directives)....we have something else altogether.

it ought to be obvious what that is.
for the time being we could call it drama.
exaggeration at the least.

but what for?
do we know?
 

zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
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#13
Ken i think we had a discussion about the Big Bang theory and Kabbalistic Cosmology.
what i am wondering is how we departed from what we once believed...about the creation account and other things.

and why.
i suppose it's worth looking at again, since it's the same narrative.
 
J

jimmydiggs

Guest
#14
I don't care how many they have, I have it on good authority that only 144,000 of them are going to get saved.
I'm not sure that's the point of the 144,000.
 
K

kenisyes

Guest
#15
right.
i get all that.
the point is, these narratives and memes and fables are embedded in minds prepared for it.
if this stuff was restricted to the unfortunate victims of such occult delusion that would be bad enough.

when the thing takes on a life of its own, or is given power and becomes an engine for group think (global directives)....we have something else altogether.

it ought to be obvious what that is.
for the time being we could call it drama.
exaggeration at the least.

but what for?
do we know?
I see your point. I kind of enjoy reading it though. Just think, we could be counting letters in the last issue of Playboy magazine instead. Looking at the Bible is better, even if you do it that way. Who knows, you might see something worthwhile, as you count.
 
K

kenisyes

Guest
#16
Ken i think we had a discussion about the Big Bang theory and Kabbalistic Cosmology.
what i am wondering is how we departed from what we once believed...about the creation account and other things.

and why.
i suppose it's worth looking at again, since it's the same narrative.
The way the Talmud jumps around, all of it and none of it is the same narrative. If you can see a connection, I'll see if I have any reflections on it.
 
K

kenisyes

Guest
#17
I'm not sure that's the point of the 144,000.
It would be interesting to see how you believe they are different. They are both counts of Israel in some sense, and the second is the Word of God Himself. Maybe the second will help us see something we are missing in the first?
 

zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
27,214
164
63
#18
The way the Talmud jumps around, all of it and none of it is the same narrative. If you can see a connection, I'll see if I have any reflections on it.
okay.
i'm eager to discuss it.
my focus will be on the magic number 6.000.000, initially.
a demain
 
J

jimmydiggs

Guest
#19
It would be interesting to see how you believe they are different. They are both counts of Israel in some sense, and the second is the Word of God Himself. Maybe the second will help us see something we are missing in the first?
I'm more jewish than than Eli Wiesel.

Galatians 4:28
Now you, brothers and sisters, like Isaac, are children of promise.
 
K

kenisyes

Guest
#20
I'm more jewish than than Eli Wiesel.

Galatians 4:28
Now you, brothers and sisters, like Isaac, are children of promise.
Sorry, I certainly agree with this, but I don't see how this applies to the counts of 144,000 and 600,000 or six million.