6,000,000

hi Ken.
i don't want to get sidetracked, but concerning the 144,000....
you may disagree. but the number 144,000 is symbolic.

144,000 (12 x 12 x 1000)

the number 1,000 in the parenthetical passages of Revelation 20 just means a complete period of time.

it simply means the complete period between the First and Second Advents - the Messianic Age (the "this world" Jesus mentioned to the Pharisees - Mttw). the "world to come" is eternity, which He also mentioned (Mark).

just a real quick resource that lays it out pretty well - note: i do not endorse anything else on this site, just using it for this purpose.

Who Are the 144,000? | Grace Communion International < click

couple examples of God using the number 1,000 to signify a full number or thing (1Still has good posts on this...maybe he'll look in and add to this):

Psalm 50:10
For all the animals of the forest are mine, and I own the cattle on a thousand hills. (clearly God is saying He owns all the animals. a thousand hills just means all of them)

Psalm 90:4
A thousand years in your sight are like a day that has just gone by, or like a watch in the night.

and our well known passage (which the Rabbis and others actually used literally - which clearly doesn't work - it's a symbolic number):

2 Peter 3:8
But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day.

etc.

so when the 12 tribes and 12 apostles are mentioned 12 x 12 x 1000 it just means ALL the saved.
actually a multitude no man can number - Praise God!

so the Jewish teachers were not only familiar with the Lord's use of symbolic numbers...they went way overboard in their parallel religion and began to giving everything numerological significance, which as we see in Talmud becomes not only ludicrous, but blasphemous and forbidden.

they made it into magic.

which will bring me back to the Kabbalistic number 600,000 representing "all israel" (from Kabbalah), and their "completion" multiplier of TEN.

k....ttyl

If massacre of 20 children in Newtown doesn't bring gun control, what will?

If the death of one child is a tragedy, the murder of 20 is a scandal of outrageous proportions.

BY ELIE WIESEL / NEW YORK DAILY NEWS

MONDAY, DECEMBER 17, 2012, 9:37 PM



Wiesel is the author of more than 50 books of fiction and non-fiction including “Night,” a Holocaust memoir. He was awarded the Nobel Peace Prize in 1986.

Read more: If massacre of 20 children in Newtown doesn't bring gun control, what will? - NY Daily News


ELIE WIESEL.
hmm....perhaps there's relevance to this thread.
more later.

Oh the irony of it all. They call it the peace prize but Nobel's family made their fortune off of weapons of war,and he also took a steel manufacturer and turned it into an arms manufacturer,and he invented dynamite. (And he was the one that invented the Peace Prize) (HMM makes one think)

American Heritage Dictionary:

Tal·mud

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Home > Library > Literature & Language > Dictionary

Talmud

(täl'mʊd, tăl'məd)

n. Judaism

The collection of ancient Rabbinic writings consisting of the Mishnah and the Gemara, constituting the basis of religious authority in Orthodox Judaism.


Read more: Talmud: Definition from Answers.com


Rabbinic Judaism or Rabbinism (Hebrew: "Yahadut Rabanit" - יהדות רבנית) has been the mainstream form of Judaism since the 6th century CE, after the codification of the Babylonian Talmud. Growing out of Pharisaic Judaism, Rabbinic Judaism became the predominant stream within the Jewish diaspora between the 2nd and 6th centuries, with the redaction of the oral law and the Talmud as the authoritative interpretation of Jewish scripture and to encourage the practice of Judaism in the absence of Temple sacrifice and other practices no longer possible. Rabbinic Judaism is based on the belief that at Mount Sinai, Moses received directly from God the Torah (Pentateuch) as well as additional oral explanation of the revelation, the "oral law," that was transmitted by Moses to the people in oral form.

Mainstream Rabbinic Judaism contrasts with Karaite Judaism (Hebrew: יהדות קראית), which does not recognize the oral law as a divine authority nor the Rabbinic procedures used to interpret Jewish scripture. Although there are now profound differences among Jewish denominations of Rabbinic Judaism with respect to the binding force of halakha and the willingness to challenge preceding interpretations, all identify themselves as coming from the tradition of the oral law and the Rabbinic method of analysis. It is this which distinguishes them as Rabbinic Jews, in comparison to Karaite Judaism.

Rabbinic Judaism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia < click

Your exegesis is as reasonable as anything. I've done lots of work with the 12. 12 tribes of Israel, 12 apostles, 12 months. Once, many years ago I gave a little teaching on 4 seasons for spirit, soul, and body, 4x3 being 12, and linked each of these 12 to an apostle (by tradition of their ministry) and to tribe (by Hebrew meaning or Jacob's or Moses' blessing of each tribe.) Thousand, as you say, means pretty much nothing in gematria work, just completion or perfection somehow. So much for 144,000. But how does this apply to 600,000? If we work with 60 as a base that is not 1000 anymore. If we go with 600, how do we explain using 600 in place of 60? That extra 10 troubles me, as Philo says it "weakens" the application, not makes it stronger. I have several ideas, but none I am happy with:

1. 600 is the Hebrew number for a name meaning "splendor"-mipa't, mem-yod-pe-ayin-tav. "Myriad of splendor" is as good as name as any for the rabbis to give Israel. The problem I have is, the word is neither in Scripture nor in Talmud, if my dictionaries are correct. I pulled it out of a gematria cross-reference dictionary. But we are dealing with Kabbalah, right? So maybe the word was adopted later than Talmud.

2. 6 is a very well documented number for anything, so we could go to 6 million, then the million is just a thousand thousand. That makes sense because this represents the completion (final state) of the completion (the Hebrews being the completion of God's plan for earth). 6 million is necessary for the 400x400x400 as well.

3. 6 million is the traditional number of Jews killed in the holocaust. 3 million men, 2 million women, 1 million children. Maybe they were the holy ones? Could there be a tradition similar to some Christian ideas of pre-tribulation, and these murdered Jews the elect saints removed early? But written 800 years earlier? Now we are dealing with what, if anything, is a demonic prophecy of the holocaust.

4. If we accept that the source is Kaballah, or late Talmud, there is a tradition of 60 that Iamsoandso uncovered in a thread I helped him with sometime ago. The focal post is http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/52562-i-need-help-math-problem-11.html#post856929 but check the context if you like. Sorry this is so long, but it links us to cosmology, as the soul of the universe in counted this way: It seems there is an early Christian document that says Paul had thought of a nice teaching that works in Greek, involving 12, 5, 30 and 60. IHS, the first 3 letters of the name of Jesus in Greek, totals 18. There were 12 apostles, total 18+12=30. But, and this is the important part, Plato (in Timeaus) documents that the ancient (pagans) believed the soul of the earth was constructed as a dodecahedron. That's 12 pentagons sewed together, like a soccer ball. Thus 12 faces, 5 edges to a face, 30 edges in the finished product (since each edge connects two faces). The idea is that the name of Jesus is the spriritual force of the church, the 12 apostles the physical manifestation, together totalling the spiritual life of the universe. It certainly is Greek thought that a bilingual Hebrew rabbi could come up with. Iamsoandso proved fairly convincingly, that this teaching was attributed to Paul by, and inspired several hundred years of now forgotten teaching in, certain now heretical sects. The point is, that late Talmud, or early Kabbalah, may have drawn on this, and it would account for the 60. They would have broken it down some other way than Paul did of course. We must remember there were 5 stones in David's pouch to face Goliath, who represented 5 lords of the Philistines, and something could be made of the 5 that way too.

I basically find nothing convincing as to what their thought was.

i'll put this in this thread, and the Geo thread....because it's exactly the same thing.

we're getting very close to seeing exactly what the numbers are meant to SIGNIFY to the kabbalist (jewish or gentile)

they don't REALLY believe any of this.
this is ALL CODE for exactly what we see happening today.
it's a SCRIPT.

a PLAN.

.....


Kabbalah and String Theory (1995)

Ten Dimensions

According to string theory, all of reality exists in (exactly) ten dimensions. There are four revealed dimensions (the three dimensions of space together with the fourth dimension of time) and an additional six concealed (spatial) dimensions.

In Kabbalah we are taught that God emanated from His infinite light (through the process of tzimtzum--the "contraction" of infinity) ten Divine lights or powers (sefirot) through which He created the universe. Each of these ten powers can be understood to be a "dimension" of reality. This is the ultimate reason that the Torah chooses the "perfect" number system to be the decimal system (as is said in the Torah: "The tenth shall be holy for God").

All ten dimensions are seen to be contained within the "point-string" (in the idiom of Chassidut, "a formed point" [in contrast to "an unformed point"], whose form resembles a tiny "string") of the letter yud = 10. The letter yud is the first letter of God's essential Name Havayah (whose full value equals 26, the sole other possible number of dimensions of the universe according to string theory).

The full spelling of the letter yud is: yud (10), vav (6), dalet (4). The two additional letters, the vav (6) and the dalet (4) themselves equal the original yud (10). The full spelling of the yud is thus to be understood as an equation: 10 = 6 plus 4. The 10 dimensions of reality divide into two categories, one of 6 and the other of 4.

In Kabbalah, the vav (6) is considered the "male" element of reality whereas the dalet (4) is considered the "female" element. The "female" principle of reality is "revelation" whereas the "male" principle is concealed within the "female." So is the relation, according to string theory, of the 6 concealed dimensions of reality to the 4 revealed dimensions.

The 6 (which "precede" the four) are in fact: 1 plus 2 plus 3. And so, 10 = 1 plus 2 plus 3 plus 4. In the terminology of Kabbalah these four stages of the Divine "evolution" of reality are referred to as: "the simple song" (1); "the double song" (2); "the triple song" (3); "the quadruple song" (4).

In the soul of man (who is "a miniature universe"), the first three concealed stages (1 plus 2 plus 3 = 6) correspond to: the power of superconscious will (1, "the simple song"); the two intellectual powers of the mind (wisdom and understanding--2, "the double song"); the three emotive powers of the heart (love, fear and mercy--3, "the triple song"). These stages are "concealed," for they are as yet unexpressed to the "other."

The fourth stage is that of the 4 "revealed" powers of the soul, which express themselves in one?s actions (and words) or patterns of behavior (conviction, commitment, devotion, speech--4, "the quadruple song." The first three of these are dimensions of "space": up-down; right-left; front-back respectively. The last is the dimension of "time").

This model of 10 = the "triangle" of 4 (= 1 plus 2 plus 3 plus 4) is referred to as the "evolutionary" model of reality.

The evolutionary model of reality is subsequently transformed into the "psychic" model of 3 triplets (of "right," "left" and "middle") plus 1: 10 = 3 squared 2 plus 1 (= 1 squared). This model, in contrast to the previous model, is relatively "mature." Here, the superconscious will--the "1" of the evolutionary model--becomes revealed as conscious "knowledge"--the third, middle element of the first of the 3 triplets--thereby maturing the mental powers of the soul from 2 to 3. The three mental powers then connect to the three emotive powers, which in turn connect to the three "behavioral" ("spatial") powers to equal 3 squared. The fourth, revealed dimension of time thus becomes the unique consciousness of 1 = 1 squared.

The psychic model of reality is subsequently transformed into the "Divine" model of 10 = 2 times 5 (the two prime factors of 10) = (1 squared plus 2 squared) plus (1 squared plus 2 squared). This is the model of the Ten Commandments--five on each of the two tablets of the covenant. Similarly, with regard to the Divine image imprinted on the body of man, ten fingers (or "toes") of the two hands (or two feet), the thumb = 1 squared and the remaining four fingers = 2 squared.

This final model of 10 is considered the model of "Divine Inspiration," for here the four physical dimensions of space and time become "inspired" with consciousness of a "fifth" dimension above them and present within their midst. This is the dimension that corresponds to the third of the three emotive powers of the heart, the power of mercy (or empathy). The consciousness of Divine mercy permeating all of physical reality causes the dimensions of space and time to blend together as an awareness of freely "traveling" in time. In the soul, this reflects the consummate unity of "devotion" (drive) and expression.

Just as the five lower powers (dimensions) of the soul unite to become one, so do the five higher powers. The five lower powers, now the five revealed dimensions of reality, perfectly reflect the five higher, concealed powers. The five higher powers are only concealed in relation to "outer" reality. In relation to the "inner" reality of mind and heart, these as well (in addition to the five lower powers) become revealed.

The mental power of "knowledge" elevates to unite with the source of simple faith--the ultimate "head" of the superconscious, which now becomes revealed to the inner consciousness of the soul. This dimension corresponds to the "concealed" 1 squared. The four powers (dimensions) of wisdom (the "right" power of the mind), understanding (the "left" power of the mind), love (the "right" power of the heart), fear (the "left" power of the heart) corresponds to the "concealed" 2 squared.

The String

Kabbalah teaches that the ten dimensions of reality were initially created in potentia by means of the "contraction" of God's infinite light, thereby resulting in the appearance of an "empty space" or "black hole" of "potential" being. Into this primordial "vacuum" enters a "ray" of Divine light, referred to as the "line" or "string." The primordial string "actualizes" the ten manifest dimensions of reality and continues to emanate within them the worlds of creation.

The initial revelation within the primordial vacuum is the revelation of light. In the words of the third verse of Genesis (the first explicit "saying" of creation): "And God said 'Let there be light,' and there was light." This primordial light refers to the Divine ray of light that permeates the vacuum, the Divine "string."

In Hebrew, the numerical value of the word for "string" (chut) is 23. 23 is the tenth prime number (beginning from 1). The value of "light" (or) is 207. 207 = 9 times 23. This indicates that every "photon" of the primordial light is in fact composed of a nine-fold string.

In Kabbalah we are taught that one of the primary functions of the primordial string is to "measure." Each "unit" of measure is in fact an individual string. From one initial string become emanated a multitude of strings which fill space. These strings "fold" in and out, "split" into two and our "reunited" into one. These stages most precisely reflect the imagery and terminology of modern string theory.

The "folding" process relates to the initial "world" which enclothes the ray of Divine light, known in Kabbalah as "Primordial Man." The "splitting" process relates to the subsequent "world of chaos," which split apart and broke. The "reuniting" process relates to the subsequent "world of rectification."

In the "world of rectification," the tiny "reunited" string segments give rise to full-fledged "particles" or "sparks." Each particle is in fact a "full" or "rectified" "stature," which is able to reflect the presence of its Creator.

The numerical value of the word for "particle" or "spark" (nitzotz) is 236. This is the number that our Sages (in the Midrash) identify as the "measure" of Divine "stature."

The consummate "union" of the two concepts of "string" and "particle" is represented in Kabbalah as the product of their two numerical values: 23 times 236 = 5428. The number 5428 is the sum of the five "whole number interactions" between the two numbers 6 and 4:

6 minus 4 = 2

6 plus 4 = 10

6 times 4 = 24

6 to the 4th = 1296

4 to the 6th = 4096

2 plus 10 plus 24 plus 1296 plus 4096 = 5428

(The fact that every pair of numbers gives rise to five "whole number interactions" reflects the "Divinely inspired" representation of the number 10. 10 = 2 times 5).

In the Torah, the mitzvah ("commandment," from the Hebrew root which means "to connect") which explicitly relates to "strings" is the mitzvah of tzitzit. The mitzvah of tzitzit requires that a four-cornered garment possess four strings bound to each of its corners. The four strings are folded over to produce the effect of eight strings hanging from each corner. These eight strings are bound together by 5 double knots: 2 times 5 = 10.

The purpose of the mitzvah of tzitzit, explicitly stated in the Torah, is to remind us of all the 613 mitzvot of the Torah. The mitzvah of tzitzit, is therefore considered to "weigh against" ("balance") all of the 613.

In "small number calculation" (reduction of each letter to equal 1-9), the word tzitzit (as written if the Torah) = 23 (the value of "string").

According to the Torah, there are two colors to the strings of the tzitzit, white and blue. In "small number calculation," the word for "white" (lavan) = 10. The word for "blue" (techailet) = 13. 10 plus 13 = 23 (the value of tzitzit and the value of "string"). As 23 is the tenth prime number (as mentioned above), this alludes to the fact (explained in Kabbalah and reflected in nature) that the "blue" of the tzitzit is rooted and contained within the "white."

The full value of "white" (lavan = 82) and "blue" (techailet = 850) is 932. This is the value of "the Tree of Knowledge of good and evil" (etz hada'at tov v'rah), as to be mentioned.

The two colors of the tzitzit represent the ability of the string to split into two and reunite as one. The word for "one" in Hebrew, echad, is composed of three letters whose numerical values are 1, 8, 4 (which together = 13). The "evolving" form of "one": (1) plus (1 plus 8) plus (1 plus 8 plus 4) = 23. This phenomenon indicates the power which inheres in the string (= 23) to unite reality.

Would we meditate deeper upon the multitude of laws and exact manner of binding the strings of the tzitzit, we would most certainly discover and clarify many of the deepest secrets of the universe.

Four Forces from One

The ratio 1:4 ("one to four" or "one becoming four") is one of the pillars of creation as revealed in the beginning of the Torah. We will here observe four phenomena from Genesis based upon the ratio 1:4.

The two letters alef (= 1) and dalet (= 4) form together the word for "vapor." In the beginning of creation, the "vapor" rose from the earth to moisten the earth for the sake of the creation of man.

One river flows from Eden to the garden, which thereafter, leaving the garden, divides into the four great rivers of the earth.

"The Tree of Life" (etz ha'chaim) = 233. "The Tree of Knowledge of good and evil" (etz hada'at tov v'rah) = 932. 932 = 4 times 233. Thus the ratio of the two trees is "one to four" (the "one" being the Tree of Life and the resulting "four" being the Tree of Knowledge of good and evil).

The word "good" (tov, the positive force of the Tree of Knowledge of good and evil) = 17. The word "life" (chaim, of the Tree of Life) = 68. 17:68 = 1:4. The word for "life" possesses four letters. The average value of each of its letters is "good." Thus we see that the fundamental force of "life" (of the Tree of Life) is in fact the positive force of "good" (inherent in the Tree of Knowledge of good and evil). The two trees thus create an infinite cycle of Divine energy.

To conclude, the most obvious phenomenon in the Torah related to the four forces of nature deriving from one, is that God's essential Name Havayah is composed of four letters. "God is One." In the future it will become revealed that "God is One and His Name is One." "His Name" refers to the four letters of Havayah. This is the ultimate revelation of the Divine "unified field theory."

Kabbalah and String Theory < click

This sounds like a Hebrew rehash of Pythagorean number theory philosophy. I see many points of similarity. We need to remember that there are only so many ways words can be put together that we are happy to hear. The ancients studied "metaphysics", which is generating theories from words, and then checking the theories against the facts. So they had many more theories than we did. Obviously, none of these facts can be checked, so this theory is as good as any other.

There are some important things overlooked in this philosophy of course, like the fact that every physical dimension must have an adjoint dimension (Banach algebras) if the system is to hold together. This gives us 5+5 dimensions, not 6+4. One must now go to the assumption, that physically, it is 4+(4+2) and thus two dimensions are extra of the concealed type. This generates a new inherent ratio of 4/2.

The connection, if there is one, comes through the 18+12=30 I spoke of. 18/12=6/4, the same ratio. Christ is the hidden dimension of reality in the reference I gave you to the Christian idea Paul supposedly spoke of. This ratio is the resonant frequency of the first and second overtone of the shofar(2,4,6,8=approx. C2-C4-G4-C5), and is intrinsic to music. It has been known since ancient times (1500BC at least), so it's hardly Kabbalah. I can trace it to the Hebrew te-amim | and ^, which are called silluq and atnah, rest, and gift, and express the musical ratio, and also earth and heaven, an exact parallel to what we are saying. (These are the musical notes under the Hebrew psalms, etc.) I have a theory this embodies the vowels in the YHWH. So this is way more ancient than Kaballah. Kaballah added its own philosophical impressions to it.

Do I believe it? No? Of course not. What I believe is that the Hebrews talked to the same Sumerians/Babylonians that the Egyptians, Hindus, Persians, and the Greeks did, and got the same general kind of results.

But what I do believe is that from ancient times people thought in these terms. Actually, I think string theory is just a rehash of the same kind of thinking.

I still say the answer to geo/helio- centrism is that everything is revolving around everything else, and we choose what to see. this is just another way to make our choice.

I'm not sure if this is Existentialist or Relativistic; or neither, etc. Could you expound on this?

The dichotomy would be either earth orbits sun or sun orbits earth (all else being relative). In regards to you indicating "everything is revolving around everything else"... what does that mean in relation to the dichotomy?

And if it's tied to observation changing reality, how so?

Ken.

i know your love and understanding of music, but i draw the line here: "and express the musical ratio, and also earth and heaven" < how you make this leap is beyond me.

it may be beyond the scope of this thread specifically, but i think all that stuff should be avoided completely....since Christians don't appear to be aware of what they're involved in. but when something is fashionable, having been made attractive, that's what happens i guess.

...

Rituals and Shofars

The Kabbalist attitude towards most rituals is governed by four fundamental principles, which are applied with many variants. Gershom Scholem states these principles to be:

Harmony between the rigid powers of judgment and the flowing powers of mercy.
The sacred marriage, or conjunctio of the masculine and feminine.
Redemption of the Shekhinah from its entanglement in the 'other side.'
Defense against, or mastery over, the powers of the 'other side' " 8.

"The blowing of the shofar on New Year's Day, for example, is explicitly associated with the first and fourth purposes. The rituals of the great festivals and particularly the Sabbath are related to the sacred marriage. Often a single ritual represents the whole sefirotic world in all its aspects." 9.

To Embrace Hebrew Roots Part IX: Talismans and Masters of the Name < click

and i don't do the Sacred Name thing either.

...

anyway. re: Kabbalah and string theory etc.

the following source agrees with you completely concerning pythagorean stuff; the integration of and synergism with the Babylonian influences; the adoption of Greco-Arabic mysticism, as well as later movements.

Lurianic Kabbalah in my opinion is when things took an especially nasty turn.

CABALA.
CABALA - JewishEncyclopedia.com


the point concerning all this is that it's critical for the Church (at the very least) to understand that Judaism has nothing at all to do with Moses and the prophets. nothing.

(with the possible exception of Karaism. even here, Christ's words stand - if they believe Moses, they would believe Him).

i do believe that to each their own, and The Lord will call to Himself whomever He will through the Gospel.

if Christians could just be aware that when they are drawn to this strange and dangerous religion, they're not drawing nearer to God - quite the opposite....regardless of what it appears to be from the outside. it's idolatry and nothing less.

we have no place walking in agreement with the Pharisees.

i'm just dismayed at how many movements and waves (assaults as far as i'm concerned) come at the Church from restless and faithless people who really don't seem to just believe and be satisfied with Christian readings and interpretations of both Old and New Testaments.

Matthew 13:11
He replied, "Because the knowledge of the secrets of the kingdom of heaven has been given to you, but not to them.

The Crucifixion of Jews Must Stop

By Martin H. Glynn (Former Governor of the State of New York).

In the AMERICAN HEBREW on October 32, 1919

The Crucifixion of Jews Must Stop

PeteWaldo and other zionists who agitate the Christian Church and the whole world:



WHY DOESN'T THE NUMBER 6 MILLION MATTER ANYMORE?

July 20, 1921 edition of The New York Times

BEGS AMERICA SAVE 6,000,000 IN RUSSIA

Massacre Threatens All Jews as Soviet Power Wanes, Declares Kreinin, Coming Here for Aid.

BERLIN, July 19.--Russia's 6,000,000 Jews are facing extermination by massacre. As the famine is spreading, the counter-revolutionary movement is gaining and the Soviet's control is waning.

BEGS AMERICA SAVE 6,000,000 IN RUSSIA - Massacre Threatens All Jews as Soviet Power Wanes, Declares Kreinin, Coming Here for Aid. - View Article - NYTimes.com < click


why doesn't that number matter anymore?
just a random number?

what happens to people who question that NUMBER?

persecution; jailed or murdered.

why is that? anybody got any good answers?
i do.

"European holocaust" of Jews in 1936.
New York Times

1936?

Isn't the number 6 (and especially 666) considered "holy" within some sort of kabbalism? No matter what the actual figures are, the number 6 has an important symbolic meaning?

Edit: Partly answered in post#26

Holocaust denial is the act of denying the genocide of Jews in the Holocaust during World War II.[1] The key claims of Holocaust denial are: the German Nazi government had no official policy or intention of exterminating Jews, Nazi authorities did not use extermination camps and gas chambers to mass murder Jews, and the actual number of Jews killed was significantly (typically an order of magnitude) lower than the historically accepted figure of 5 to 6 million.[2][3][4]

Holocaust denial - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia < click







Above left: This was the plaque on display at the Auschwitz camp until 1989. 4 million deaths.

Above right: The plaque currently on display at Auschwitz as of 2002. 1.5 million deaths.


......


is it okay to not use the NUMBER now that Holocaust Authorities have reduced and revised the NUMBER by MILLIONS.
is it okay to question or discuss the NUMBER even though the NUMBER has been proven false.
is it okay to discuss this issue without using the language LEGALLY binding upon us all.


no. it is not okay.

AT ALL. EVER.


Holocaust denial is the act of denying the genocide of Jews in the Holocaust during World War II.[1] The key claims of Holocaust denial are: the German Nazi government had no official policy or intention of exterminating Jews, Nazi authorities did not use extermination camps and gas chambers to mass murder Jews, and the actual number of Jews killed was significantly (typically an order of magnitude) lower than the historically accepted figure of 5 to 6 million.[2][3][4]


the FACTS will not be discussed
the FACTS do not matter
the FACTS will be buried
the FACTS will get you jailed persecuted and killed.

"How many do you say died at Auschwitz?"

"My own figures are, Jewish, a shade over one million. Non-Jewish dead, perhaps 300,000 plus,"

"So the monument was more than twice that number."

"I did not, frankly, look at the monument closely enough to notice what it said, but any figure in multiple millions is off the mark."

- Transcript of cross examination of Raul Hilberg at the first trial of Ernst Zundel. (4-826)

Do you know of one scientific report that substantiates that any single place was used as a gas chamber? If so, please name it, said Christie.

"What do you mean by a scientific report?," asked Hilberg.

I don't usually have to define simple words, said Christie, but by "scientific report" I mean a report conducted by anyone who purported to be a scientist and who examined physical evidence. Name one report of such a kind that showed the existence of gas chambers anywhere in Nazi-occupied territory. (5-968)

"I still don't quite understand the import of your question," said Hilberg. "Are you referring to a German, or a post-war -"

I don't care who -- German, post-war, Allied, Soviet -- any source at all. Name one, said Christie.

"To prove what?," asked Hilberg.

To conclude that they have physically seen a gas chamber. One scientific report, repeated Christie.

"I am really at a loss. I am very seldom at such a loss, but ... Again, I can only state that there have been aerial photographs that were analysed. Perhaps that is not in your definition of science. There have been contemporaneous documents about the lethality of the gas that was employed. Perhaps this is not important to you. There are documents -- " (5-969)

- Summary of the transcript, cross examination of Raul Hilberg by Attorney Douglas Christie at the first trial of Ernst Zundel.

I want you to tell me, repeated Christie, if you know of one scientific report of the analysis of gas chambers that was used in conjunction with Zyklon B (hydrocyanic acid) for the killing of people?

"No, I don't know of any such report unless it is, you know, somewhere in the records of the Soviet Polish Investigation Commission of Lublin, Majdanek, because you have to remember that aside from the Lublin chambers, otherwise known as Majdanek, and the one Auschwitz chamber still in existence, there wouldn't be any -"

Judge Locke interrupted: "Doctor ... do you know of such a report?"

"No," replied Hilberg.

- Summary of the transcript, cross examination of Raul Hilberg by Attorney Douglas Christie at the first trial of Ernst Zundel.






Raul Hilberg (June 2, 1926 – August 4, 2007) was an Austrian-born American political scientist and historian. He was widely considered to be the world's preeminent[1][2][3] scholar of the Holocaust, and his three-volume, 1,273-page magnum opus, The Destruction of the European Jews, is regarded as a seminal study of the Nazi Final Solution.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raul_Hilberg - click

"American investigators at the U. S. Court in Dachau, Germany, used the following methods to obtain confessions: Beatings and brutal kickings. Knocking out teeth and breaking jaws. Mock trials. Solitary confinement. Posturing as priests. Very limited rations. Spiritual deprivation. Promises of acquittal."

- E. L. Van Roden, "American Atrocities in Germany", The Progressive. February 1949, p. 21f.

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"The American investigators who committed the atrocities in the name of American Justice and under the American flag are going scot-free. At this point there are two objectives which should be aimed for:

1. Those prisoners whose death sentences have not been commuted and who have not yet been hanged should be saved, pending full judicial review.

2. American investigators who abused the powers of victory and prostituted justice to vengeance, should be exposed in a public process, preferably in the U. S., and prosecuted.

Unless these crimes committed by Americans are exposed by us at home, the prestige of America and American justice will suffer permanent and irreparable damage. We can partially atone for our own misconduct if we first search it out and publicly condemn and disavow it. If we wait for our enemies to blazon our guilt abroad, we can only bow our heads in shamed admission."

- E. L. Van Roden, "American Atrocities in Germany", The Progressive. February 1949, p. 21f.


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Judge Edward L. Van Roden


The American Judge Edward L. van Roden, one of the three members of the Simpson Army Commission which was subsequently appointed to investigate the methods of justice at the Dachau trials, revealed the methods by which these admissions were secured in the Washington Daily News, January 9th, 1949. His account also appeared in the British newspaper, the Sunday Pictorial, January 23rd, 1949. The methods he described were: "Posturing as priests to hear confessions and give absolution; torture with burning matches driven under the prisoner's fingernails; knocking out the teeth and breaking jaws; solitary confinement and near starvation rations. Van Roden explained: "The statements which were admitted as evidence were obtained from men who had first been kept in solitary confinement for three, four and five months.. .The investigators would put a black hood over the accused's head and then punch him in the face with brass knuckles, kick him and beat him with rubber hoses.. .All but two Germans, in the 139 cases we investigated, had been kicked in the testicles beyond repair.

But as far as such "confessions" in general are concerned, we can do no better than quote the British Sunday Pictorial when reviewing the report of Judge van Roden: "Strong men were reduced to broken wrecks ready to mumble any admission demanded by their prosecutors."

E. L. Van Roden, "American Atrocities in Germany", The Progressive, February 1949, p. 21f.

"What are you writing?" the Rebbe asked. "Stories," I said. He wanted to know what kind of stories: true stories. "About people you knew?" Yes, about things that happened or could have happened. "But they did not?" No, not all of them did. In fact, some were invented from almost the beginning to almost the end. The Rebbe leaned forward as if to measure me up and said with more sorrow than anger: "That means you are writing lies!" I did not answer immediately. The scolded child within me had nothing to say in his defence. Yet, I had to justify myself: "Things are not that simple, Rebbe. Some events do take place but are not true; others are - although they never occurred."

- "Legends of Our Time" by Elie Wiesel, New York Holt, Rinehart and Winston, 1968, p. viii