6,000,000

the purpose is to show:

the sickness is spritual
to investigate the number six million
to show how relevant the thinking that led to it is

it effects everyone.

ADL

Holocaust Denial:
David Cole and Roger Garaudy

Beyond the "revisionist" information posted at their Web sites, Holocaust deniers have demonstrated their extensive use of the Internet in responding to two events in 1998: the trial of Roger Garaudy and the "recantation" of David Cole.

In late 1997, a document entitled "David Cole: Monstrous Traitor" reportedly appeared on the Web site of the Jewish Defense League (JDL), a Jewish extremist group. The JDL's statement, attributed to Robert J. Newman, went far beyond criticizing Cole for denying the Holocaust, asserting in no uncertain terms that the JDL wished to "get rid" of him:

Don't you think it's time that we flush this rotten, sick individual down the toilet, where the rest of the waste lies? One less David Cole in the world will certainly not end Jew-hatred, but it will have removed a dangerous parasitic, disease-ridden bacteria from infesting society...An evil monster like this does not deserve to live on this earth.

At the document's close, the JDL offered a "monetary reward" for the location of David Cole, implying that it was prepared to take immediate, possibly violent, action.

Within a few months, a "Statement of David Cole" appeared on JDL's Web site, supposedly signed by Cole and notarized on January 5, 1998. In it, Cole renounced his Holocaust denial, explaining that he stopped expressing such beliefs in 1994. "During my four years as a denier, I was wracked with self-hate and loathing," he wrote. "The hate I had for myself I took out on my people." "The Nazis intended to kill all the Jews of Europe, and the final death toll of this attempted genocide was six million," Cole acknowledged.

At the end of his "Statement," Cole claimed that it was "made freely and under no duress, and is quite willingly, even happily, given to Mr. Irv Rubin of the Jewish Defense League."

Poisoning the Web - David Cole and Roger Garaudy < click

ADL Applauds FBI For Arrest of JDL Leader Irv Rubin for Alleged Acts Of Terrorism

LOS ANGELES, CA, December 12, 2001…The Anti-Defamation League (ADL) commends the FBI for its diligence in thwarting alleged bombing attacks planned by members of the Jewish Defense League. For more than a quarter of a century, ADL has been monitoring the contemptible activities of the JDL and its leadership.

David A. Lehrer, ADL Regional Director, issued the following statement:

If the current allegations about the JDL are true, ADL abhors and condemns this potential terrorist plot to attack members of the Los Angeles community. This incident is one more example of how organizations expressing hatred often turn to violence. We praise the diligent work of the Federal Bureau of Investigation and the U.S. Attorney's Office that led to the arrest. We have full confidence that this case will be thoroughly investigated and the perpetrators brought to justice.

The Jewish Defense League, also known as JDL, was established in 1968 for the declared purpose of protecting Jews by whatever means necessary in the face of what was seen by the group's principals as their dire peril. The founder, national chairman and leader of JDL was a then-38-year-old ordained rabbi from Brooklyn, New York, Meir Kahane, who, in 1990, was assassinated in New York by an Arab extremist.

In Rabbi Kahane's gross distortion of the position of Jews in America, American Jews were living in a fiercely hostile society, facing much of the same dangers as the Jews in Nazi Germany or those in Israel surrounded by 100-million Arab enemies. Rabbi Kahane believed that the major Jewish organizations in the United States had failed to protect America's Jews from anti-Semitism, which he saw as "exploding" all over the country. "If I have succeeded in instilling fear in you," Rabbi Kahane said in the closing statement of his standard speech, "I consider this evening a success."

Kahane's attitudes were replicated in Southern California by his successor as National Chairman of the JDL, Irv Rubin. He has a long track record of intimidation and bullying tactics.

ADL Commends FBI for Thwarting Alleged Bombing Plot By Jewish Extremists < click

I see 6 million as part only of Kabbalistic and maybe late Talmudic thought. As far as I know, hardly anyone is using those thought systems to analyze the world. I didn't even know about it until your OP. From my experience, it is not relevant, since it is so little used. Maybe my experience is unusual? But I have looked for such thought patterns for many years, and have not found them on any noteworthy scale.

Statement of David Cole


Prepared January 2nd, 1998


Note: CODOH has not heard from David Cole and does not have absolute confirmation of the validity of the document that follows. We ask that all intelligent readers read this carefully and compare it to David's earlier works. This statement appeared on the JDL website, where it replaced the threats which perhaps led to it.


.....



This statement is given in an attempt to set the record straight about my current views regarding the Holocaust and Holocaust denial. As anyone who follows the subject of the Holocaust denial knows, from 1991 until 1994 I was well known in the movement as a Jewish Holocaust denier (a self-described "revisionist"). For the last three years I have no longer been associated with this movement, having realized that I was wrong and that the path I was taking with my life was self-destructive and hurtful to others. I have spent the last few years in silence on the subject of my time with the denial movement, a silence caused mainly by my shame at what I had done with my life and my desire to distance myself from that life.

However, in that shame-induced silence it has been brought to my attention that I have not gone as far as I should have to make a clear and complete public statement in order to set the record straight as to where I stand.

It is my great hope that this statement accomplishes that task.

I would like to state for the record that there is no question in my mind that during the Holocaust of Europe's Jews during World War Two, the Nazis employed gas chambers in an attempt to commit genocide against the Jews. At camps in both Eastern and Western Europe, Jews were murdered in gas chambers which employed such poison gases as Zyklon B and carbon monoxide (in the Auschwitz camp, for example, the gas chambers used Zyklon B). The evidence for this is overwhelming and unmistakable.

The Nazis intended to kill all of the Jews of Europe, and the final death toll of this attempted genocide was six million. This atrocity, unique in its scope and breadth, must never be forgotten.

During my four years as a denier, I was wracked with self-hate and loathing, a fact that many of my critics were quick to point out. Indeed, this self hatred was obvious to most, but I was too blind to see it. The hate I had for myself I took out on my people. I was seduced by pseudo-historical nonsense and clever-sounding but empty ideas and catch-phrases. When my eyes were finally opened, thanks to several good, kind friends who refused to give up on me even at my worst, I was horrified by what I had done. My instinct was to flee and never look back, but I now understand that I owe it to the people I wronged to make a forceful repudiation of my earlier views. I also owe a very large apology, not only to the many people I enraged, and to the family and friends I hurt, but especially to the survivors of the Holocaust, who deserve only our respect and compassion, not re-victimization.

Therefore, to all of the above people, let me offer my most humble and very, very sincere apology. I am sorry for what did, and I am sorry for the hurt I caused.

And just as I must set the record straight concerning my views, it is also incumbent on me to set the record straight regarding the video "documentaries" and media appearances I did from 1991 to 1994. These "documentaries" are merely videotaped garbage filled with self-hatred and pseudo-intellectual nonsense. My "media appearances" were nothing but an embarrassment. My glazed look, specious reasoning, and talking-in-circles during my talk show appearances would have hopefully alerted any astute viewers that this was a man not in touch with reality.

It has been brought to my attention that Bradley Smith is still using one of my videos in advertisements he is running on college campuses. Therefore, I would like to make these additional points: This video is being advertised without my consent, and I denounce this video as being without worth. Bradley Smith is no historian, and denial is no "historical field".

Students on college campuses should look elsewhere to find out about the Holocaust. To these students I would say, look to books like Hilberg's "Destruction of the European Jews", Yahil's "The Holocaust", and Dawidowicz's "War Against the Jews" for correct information. If your school library doesn't stock these books, have them order copies.

Do not pay any attention to any "David Cole" videos, except to rightly denounce them as frauds.

I am thankful for being given the opportunity to make this statement. This statement is made freely and under no duress, and is quite willingly, even happily, given to Mr. Irv Rubin of the Jewish Defense League for the widest possible distribution. This statement is the most current and accurate compilation of my views, and it supersedes an previous writings, videos, or statements. It is my hope that there will be no more confusion as to where I stand. I thank you for letting me set the record straight.

[Signed]

David Cole

[notarized]


YA SURE.

really?
well are we talking about back room kabbalah?

or global narratives like 6,000,000 gassed to death?

because the global narrative has steered the course of history.

hasn't it Ken.

JDL Thugs Attack Young Jewish Revisionist

On January 22, 1992, revisionist activist David Cole was attacked by JDL thugs at a meeting held at the University of California at Los Angeles. Before the meeting began, JDL leader Rubin first tried to push the youthful Cole down a flight of stairs. JDL hoodlums also harassed and pushed around meeting organizer Robert Morrissey. After the meeting commenced, JDL punks tried to shout down the speakers, and then threw food at Cole. Finally, a JDL thug assaulted Cole -- who is Jewish -- hitting him in the face and bloodying his nose.




David Cole at the 1992 IHR Conference. He was attacked by JDL thugs at a meeting in January 1992 at the University of California at Los Angeles.

The tumult was recorded on videotape by a camera crew of the CBS television news program "48 Hours," as well as by news crews of two local Los Angeles television stations. Neither of the two local stations mentioned a word of the incident in their nightly news broadcasts. Similarly, CBS officials decided not to air even a second of this outburst, not even in a segment about Holocaust revisionism that was part of the CBS television network's hour-long magazine-format program "48 Hours" broadcast of February 26, 1992. Network officials apparently decided that scenes of Zionist hoodlums beating a young Jewish revisionist would not "fit" with the image of revisionism that CBS wanted to project to its many viewers.

Meir Kahane and the Jewish Defense League

The most zealous non-governmental Zionist terrorist organization has been the Jewish Defense League. Its activists have been involved in a wide range of crimes, and the US Federal Bureau of Investigation has repeatedly cited it as a criminal terrorist group.

The Jewish Defense League was founded in 1968 by Rabbi Meir Kahane. Born Martin David Kahane in 1932 in Brooklyn, New York, he was the first-born son of an orthodox rabbi who was active in the "revisionist" movement of Zionist hard-liner Ze'ev Jabotinsky. Jabotinsky and other leaders of his movement were guests at the Kahane household while Martin (Meir) was a boy. As a youth, Kahane became an active member of the Jewish-supremacist Betar movement, which Jabotinsky had founded in 1925.

Kahane's first arrest came in 1947, when he was fifteen, for leading a group of Betar youth in an attack against visiting British foreign minister Ernest Bevin. (1)

Two of Jabotinsky's most fervent followers went on to gain notoriety as leaders of Zionist terror groups, and, later, as prime ministers of Israel: Menachem Begin, who once headed the Irgun group, and Yitzhak Shamir, who headed the Lehi group (Stern gang). Shamir, for example, played a crucial role in the Lehi murder in November 1944 of British Middle East envoy Lord Moyne, and in the September 1948 assassination of Swedish United Nations peace mediator Count Folke-Bernadotte. (2)

For a time in the 1960s, Kahane led a double life. He lived and worked under the name of Michael King, keeping this identity secret even from his wife. During this period, he later related, he worked for the Central Intelligence Agency and for the Federal Bureau of Investigation. For the FBI he spied on the right-wing John Birch Society as well as on various left-wing student groups. (3)

Posing as the non-Jewish Michael King, he had affairs with a number of young women he picked up in New York bars. One of them was Gloria Jean D'Argenio, a (non-Jewish) 22-year-old model who worked under the name of Estelle Evans. After their meeting in 1966, they promptly began an affair. Never revealing his true identity, he even proposed marriage. After Kahane/King broke off the relationship a few weeks later, she attempted suicide by hurling herself into the East River, dying two days later (on Kahane's 34th birthday). (4)

Kahane's life changed dramatically in 1968, when he and several colleagues founded the Jewish Defense League. Brandishing guns and provocative slogans ("Every Jew a .22," "Never Again"), Kahane's JDL quickly attracted considerable media attention. Kahane pointedly exploited rising anti-black sentiment among Jews in the New York area. (5)

Kahane and his new organization received important and probably crucial support from two powerful allies: Israel's right-wing Herut political party and the New York Mafia.

Between December 1969 and August 1972, Kahane's JDL -- with important support and guidance from Menachem Begin's Herut party in Israel, top officers of Israel's Mossad secret service, and several wealthy American Jewish businessmen -- carried out a campaign of criminal attacks against Soviet Russian diplomats and other Soviet targets in the USA. The goal was to focus attention on and generate sympathy for Soviet Jewry, and to damage relations between the United States and Soviet Russia. (6)

On May 12, 1971, Kahane and a dozen other JDL members were arrested by federal agents for conspiracy to manufacture explosives. One day later, Kahane announced an alliance with a group founded by Mafia boss Joseph Colombo, Jr., a one-time killer who had risen to head the Colombo crime syndicate. "Kahane received substantial aid from the New York Mafia," writes Israeli journalist Yair Kotler in his biography of the JDL founder. Until Colombo's murder in 1971, relations between Kahane and the New York City mob boss were very close, and the two criminal chiefs worked closely together. (7)

Kahane claimed to have spent a total of three years in American prisons as a result of his militant activities. (8) During the early 1970s, Kahane abandoned the JDL and moved to Israel -- returning on occasional visits to raise money. Building on the international notoriety he had gained as JDL leader, in 1976 he launched his radical Kach party. In 1984 he was elected to the Israeli Knesset (parliament) as his party's only deputy. Meanwhile, the JDL's New York chapter collapsed, and splinter groups emerged with names such as the "Jewish Direct Action," the "United Jewish Underground," "Save Our Israel Land," and the "Jewish Defenders." (9)

Kahane was assassinated on November 5, 1990, while addressing a meeting of supporters at a hotel in midtown Manhattan, New York City. (10)

Rabbi Kahane's Ideology

In numerous speeches and essays, and in several books, Meir Kahane preached an arrogant and even genocidal message of Jewish supremacy and ruthless Zionism. For the JDL leader and his many fervent followers, any and all measures to further Jewish survival and welfare -- including terror, dispossession and murder -- are entirely justified. (11)

Typical of his passionate and outspoken prose style is a representative essay by Kahane that appeared in 1980 in a leading Jewish community paper. He wrote: (12)

...Vengeance is a fundamental Jewish concept that is a precept, injunction, commandment for the Jew...Vengeance becomes, thanks to the gentilized and perplexed era in which we live, a maligned thing...Let the government of Israel, which is responsible for the lives of its citizens, make the streets, buses, shops and homes of the Ishmaelites [Palestinians] perpetual places of terror and stark insecurity...Wipe away the bitter degradation of God's name that is symbolized by Arab refusal to bow to Jewish sovereignty. A truly Jewish government is one that understands the need to...burn out the desecration by removing, burning out, the evil that is the Arab nation in our midst.

In another essay, this one published in 1973, Kahane emphasized Jewish invincibility. The day will come, he promised, when all non-Jews would acknowledge the superiority of the Chosen people: (13)

The Jewish people cannot ever be destroyed, but rather they and their G-d of History will emerge in days to come triumphant over the evils and foolishness of all other nations. Zion will and must emerge as the mount to which all peoples will turn and the Jewish L-rd will be the One before Whom all knees bend...

In an essay published in 1982, Kahane stressed the pitiless, either-or, us-or-them, nature of the struggle between Jews and their "enemies": (14)

Let us look at events through Jewish eyes...Lebanon:...A war was begun [by Israel] against a "Palestinian" enemy -- an entire people -- which seeks to wipe out the Jewish state and the vast majority of its Jews. It was...a war unto the death, the utter destruction of the enemy, the instilling of total fear, terror, until he capitulates and acknowledges the L-rd.

Jewish and liberal democratic values are incompatible, Kahane often insisted: "I have said it a million times. Western democracy as we know it is incompatible with Zionism...The idea of a democratic Jewish state is nonsense." (15) On another occasion he stated: "Democracy is for people who don't have the truth. No earthly, temporal government has any relevance to the actions of the Jew when its orders and regulations are contrary to [Jewish] Torah law...Judaism has never been a democratic form of society." (16)

A virtual obsession for Kahane was the brutal wartime treatment of Europe's Jews. "Never Again," the JDL slogan, pointedly referred to the Holocaust experience. In Kahane's view, every non-Jew is a potential Nazi murderer. "As long as one gentile lives opposite one Jew, the possibility of a Holocaust remains," he wrote. (17) The moral measure of every action, Kahane stressed, must be "is it good for the Jews?" Failure to act in accordance with this principle, he emphasized, will lead to "a new Auschwitz." (18)

America's most influential daily paper, the (Jewish-owned) New York Times, gave Kahane a measure of respectability and legitimacy by publishing essays by him on its widely read "op ed" opinion page. (34)

Kahane's book, They Must Go, which calls for the genocidal mass expulsion of Palestinian Arabs from their ancient homeland, was published in 1980 by the "mainstream" New York publishing firm of Grosset & Dunlap.


The Zionist Terror Network Background and Operation of the Jewish Defense League and other Criminal Zionist Groups < click

Over the years, Zionist militants have carried out hundreds of illegal actions against real or imagined "enemies," including many acts of vandalism and harassment, and countless threatening phone calls. What follows here, though, are details about some particularly spectacular criminal operations. While JDL responsibility for many of them has been conclusively established, in some cases precise responsibility could not be established.

On January 26, 1972, a JDL team firebombed the New York City offices of a US-Soviet cultural exchange agency. Killed in the fire was a 27-year-old secretary (who happened to be Jewish). Thirteen others were injured. One participant, Sheldon Siegel, confessed to police that he had made the bomb, and provided the names of the others involved in the crime. Several years later Kahane acknowledged JDL responsibility for the crime. However, the case against the JDL members who were charged in the incident was eventually dismissed on a technicality. (36)

In May 1972, ten JDL thugs broke into the Austrian consulate in Washington, DC, and beat Austria's ambassador to the US, Karl Gruber, as well as the building's janitor. (37)

In May 1974, JDL members attacked Arab-American community activist Dr. Mohammed Mehdi with a lead pipe, sending him to the hospital with a broken back. It took nearly a year for the police to make an arrest, even though a perpetrator had appeared on television to boast of the deed. A short time later, Mehdi's offices in Manhattan were almost totally destroyed in an apparent arson attack. (38)

On February 21, 1975, a US federal court found Kahane guilty of violating terms of a probation stemming from his 1971 felony conviction for manufacturing firebombs. He had been forbidden from having anything to do with bombs, dynamite or other weapons, or encouraging violence. Citing incriminating letters written by Kahane in which he had urged followers to assassinate Russian and Arab diplomats, the judge sentenced the rabbi to one year imprisonment.

Kahane served eight months of this term in a Manhattan halfway house, which he was allowed to leave every day to eat in kosher restaurants. Kahane used this period of "imprisonment" to conduct JDL business. (39)


The Zionist Terror Network Background and Operation of the Jewish Defense League and other Criminal Zionist Groups < click


PeteWaldo et al.
please tell me again about this:





which side am i supposed to support again?

1. Global narrative does indeed steer the course of history. And the stories of 6,000,000 gassed are part of that narrative. 2. But I do not see that Kaballah has had much effect on global narrative. Jews were such a small part of that narrative for many centuries. I don't think even the Masons care about Kaballah that much. Most of the global narrative says how bad the Jews are and how dangerous, not how great their writings are (other than the OT).
3. I do not see how a story of 600,000 or 6,000,000 from a "spiritual" narrative written in the middle ages, could have any part in the cause of the number of Jews gassed as being that number.
4. I do believe that zionist miltants may be acting on such Kaballah stories to justify their attacks. But I still don't see how they are associating the story of the 6 million with the holocaust or with any other rationalization.

I sincerely just don't see the connection. I do appreciate that you are trying to explain it to me.

we saw the number 600,000 represents "all israel".
with 10 being the number of completion.
this is not Biblical, we agree.

the Talmudic 64,000,000 staved and burned was an exaggeration (at least).
clearly for dramatic effect.
right?

so is the 6,000,000 figure.
an exaggeration.
for dramatic effect.
this is comfirmed by today's facts.

and we agree that:
Global narrative does indeed steer the course of history.
And the stories of 6,000,000 gassed are part of that narrative.

so what parts of history has been effected by that narrative?
what part of people's everyday lives are effected by it?
which people?

has it been to anyone's benefit to perpetuate
that narrative?

has anyone been harmed by that narrative?

these are the questions i would wonder.
without even touching on motive.

I'm a few years older than you. I have seen more of the trials of the holocaust officers than you have. I do not doubt that there is some truth in the holocaust. People still are alive with tatooed numbers. Some were killed. I see that the facts of the holocaust affected everyone who was involved. I see that people were tried and put to death for doing it. And I have seen many people argue about numbers, with estmates that are way lower than that 6 million. If too many officers were tried and killed because of exaggeration, it affected them. But, in the grand scheme of history, how many false convictions is that? Just since the discovery of DNA typing, I heard like 5% or more of convicted murderers and rapists have been set free. That's a lot of false convictions generally.

It affected people who tried to help the people who had been hurt by Germany (or whoever was in charge). I grew up in a neighborhood of Chicago that took in Polish refugees, and I saw how people helped them, and others persecuted them. It was on-on-one, neighbors helping or hating neighbors. I don't think these stories affected them at all.

I can certainly see it affecting militant Zionists, and their victims. The more Jews who were killed, the more important it is to get Jews back into their own country. Exaggerate the story, and you get more commitment, and more aggression from members of such movements. They would affect world politics, and more would likely become Israeli terrorists. But I don't see very many of those percentagewise. Everyone I have spoken with who believes as I do, that the Jews deserve to live in Israel, believes it for the same reason I do - God says so. If there were more militant Zionists, and it were thought true that people said to have been killed in the holocaust, I would say the Zionists have affected the current size of Israel, and the world rejection of Israel, and increased the Middle East tensions. But I don't think that percentagewise there are any more militant Zionists than there are American Christian survivalists, or Moslem extremists, either.

The holocaust is ancient history to me. I want the historical truth, whatever it is, just as a scholar of history. Exaggerating helps no one, and hurts anyone who gets in the way of people who feel they want to do something to avenge the situation.

I'm not denying that militant Zionists are there, and that exaggeration of such a holocaust story causes them to commit more aggressive action. You quote several samples of such actions. But compared to the number of hostage incidents in the US every year, abortion clinic bombings, or even school shootups, how many is that? I just don't see militant Zionism as any more than a little paragraph in the global story.

i've watched what film is available
and have read the transcripts.

yes, they were nazis.
some were insane haters and killers.
some were conscripted citizens.

they were tortured.
their confessions are not worth the paper they're written on.

they were put to death or disappeared before anything could really be learned.
what else is new?

completely agree.

but the facts are not known, generally.
a narrative is repeated.

they were undoubtably guilty of what the world considers war crimes.
it doesn't take much...supposedly.
we'll just never know what was true from their lips, since confessions extracted by torture are meaningless.

but some are permitted to commit war crimes with impunity.

On the evening of February 13, 1945, a series of Allied firebombing raids begins against the German city of Dresden, reducing the "Florence of the Elbe" to rubble and flames, and killing as many as 135,000 people. It was the single most destructive bombing of the war—including Hiroshima and Nagasaki—and all the more horrendous because little, if anything, was accomplished strategically, since the Germans were already on the verge of surrender.

in the grand scheme of global killing and injustice it's minor i suppose.
what about trillions of dollars in reparations for such an exaggerated number?
money doesn't matter to me personally.

extortion is a crime though.

no....WW2 hurt the whole world.
for a long time.
it's still hurting the world.

this is a very fair observation and i do appreciate it.
it's self-evident. any reasonable person acknowledges this.

this is always the objective of the use of "terror" - whatever form it takes.

israelis don't all need to become terrorists.
like any other group, only a tiny portion are actually terrorists.
many jews are psychologically terrorized to varying degrees just by having this as "their story".

the narrative uses another kind of manipulation.
the global meme is enough to drive events.
for everyone.
people needn't be obviously extremists to have this narrative envelope their entire being, and serve multiple purposes.
if it didn't serve a purpose today it would be, as you mentioned, ancient history - as all other wars and supposedly are.

it's unfortunate any kids, especially jewish kids are subjected to the harrowing exaggerations and nightmarish stories.
forced on all of them. mandatory 'education'. which is nearly obscene considering the key parts of the narrative are not true.
this is not healthy. but there's precedent for it, as we've seen.

apparently grown adults continue to fight using all resources (including law) for the right to perpetuate outlandish and ghoulish fables.

as if the actual suffering of all during the war wasn't enough.

"Eye witnesses say that for months after the killings the ground continued to spurt geysers of blood. One was always treading on corpses."
Elie Wiesel

jews deserve to live anywhere they desire to live.

we have a completely different reading of scripture on this matter.
we'll have to agree to disagree.

again though : jews deserve to live anywhere they desire to live.

this is what has happened.

they wouldn't have to be militant extremists.
they would simply have to control American and European Foreign Policy, and other things.

this is true.
and one reason i find the oppression of indigenous people in the region perplexing, since the movement hinges on two narratives that are distorted in my opinion.

both of which we have covered.

i suppose militancy would be the word now clouding the picture somewhat.
an overall narrative is enough to drive events.
could the militancy be currently being carried out by proxy?
i.e: The United States?

surely.

thanks for a refreshingly open discussion, Ken.
it's all that's hoped for

and ultimately the best remedy.
honesty is the best policy, i would think.

many captives could be set free.

Intentional History over Incidental History shifts the instantiation of all events to be represented and/or obscured to whatever degree the "sculptors" determine.

<cough> Balfour Declaration, etc. <cough>

I'd be very intrigued with Ken's insight on the historical occultic influences on mathematics and the paradoxes of modern systems.

but some are permitted to commit war crimes with impunity.

I can add more about US responisbility in exaggerating the crisis. Secret documents became public when I was taking history in college. Revealed that the US deliberately pulled back patrols at Pearl Harbor to encourage Japanese attack, and make it more destructive. This was done to encourage the outrage of Americans, thus making the war possible in the first place. And you are quite right, America has much to answer for in God's scheme. But I don't think America can be tied to Hitler's decision to capture and kill Jews, and that is the specific topic of the thread.

It's hard for Americans to accept that the other English speaking countries do not have a sense of pride like we do. I decided, talking to Australians about this, that it's because we "defeated" England at the height of her military power, and needed to bolster our own self-confidence to set up a government of our own fairly quickly. It's not of interest to CC, but I have some local studies that show how it is hurting the spread of the Gospel in Delaware particularly, since certain events were focussed here.

it's unfortunate any kids, especially jewish kids are subjected to the harrowing exaggerations and nightmarish stories.
forced on all of them. mandatory 'education'. which is nearly obscene considering the key parts of the narrative are not true.
this is not healthy. but there's precedent for it, as we've seen.

I was taught the lies and learned the truth. I imagine God is trying to get through to them too.


jews deserve to live anywhere they desire to live.

I actually misspoke, using the word "deserve". I quite agree with you. What I should have said was closer to, "Jews need to be in charge of Israel, as Scripture says it is part of the end days scenario."

this is true.
and one reason i find the oppression of indigenous people in the region perplexing, since the movement hinges on two narratives that are distorted in my opinion.

Oppression always hinges on distorted narratives. It's the only way to get it organized. Oppression is sin and requires a lie if it is to involve more people.

Like I said to my friend in Australia once, you sing "advance Australia fair", we sing about "bombs bursting in air". It really affects national identity. I think Internet is changing that. I remember thinking back in the mid-'90's how hard it was going to be for the US pilot bombing the Iraqi city to continue when he knows his son in America is talking to the daughter of the official in the palace he is aiming his bombs at, as he is aiming. I think we are moving in the right direction noting that Americans don't agree with aggressive policies based on altered history.

hi Ken.
i'm really edified and encouraged when we have dialogue.
thanks for your sincerity. it is love.
i receive it.
kath



a little wider-ranging response if i may...just kinda musing over the whole thing.

well, this is never about whole populations plotting and whatnot.
always the same group of power-trippers.

so, no...america herself (the 300 million or whatever the ww2 pop was) of course can not be tied to hitler.
but some who lived in america have been tied directly to him.
IBM and the bushes, to name a few.
some powerful bankers.

this is old news.

they fund both sides Ken.
always have.

megalomaniacs thinking globally, long term. i mean very long term.
they think they own the world.
that's nothing new.
so it ought not to surprise us if money trails and other things pop up in our own backyards.

suggesting hitler was some anomaly in human history is ludicrous.
he didn't even write his own books for crying out loud.
a pathetic loser who yelled alot.

no...other forces more powerful that that little man ran that operation.
same as N Korea. those dynasties don't stay in power unless they are allowed to.

....

in any case, Theodor Herzl, a very likable and reasonable man, himself discussed zionism long before hitler or any of that stuff showed up...as you know, he proposed that jews needed to have their own state because they were themselves a nation (regardless of where they lived), even writing himself that this would constitute a "final solution of the Jewish question".

so, this meme goes back way before ww2.
why we keep accepting that hitler was the originator of "the final solution" is beyond me.

the final solution was never at any time an extermination policy.
it was a mutual agreement pretty much early on of separation because both sides said they were distinct and couldn't and shouldn't coexist. the "solution" agreed on with the rise of national socialism was deportation.

it actually very early on was simply emmigration. leaving.
as always happens with this kind of idea is some people don't want to leave.
the majority of the citizenry (on both sides) starts off wondering why must we have all this upheaval.
so, out comes the propaganda and false flags and you name it.

everybody ought to know this by now...it's just simple history.

anyways...

i'm totally fine with all of that...the idea that people have the freedom to decide for themselves to live separately or assimilate - whatever their choices are.

i'm totally on board with people deciding they (for whatever reasons) desire to maintain their cultural or any other distinctions. maintaining foundational cultures and familial ties is a good thing, i think.

when it becomes a terrible thing is when it means "the other" is lesser than. which almost without exception is what happens. man is fallen.

both ayran national socialists and jews felt precisely the same way about each other.

now there will be screeching over such a statement, but everyone knows this is the truth.

just after hitler came to power the zionist federation of germany proposed this to the new german govt:

"Zionism believes that the rebirth of the national life of a people, which is now occurring in Germany through the emphasis on its Christian and national character, must also come about in the Jewish national group. For the Jewish people, too, national origin, religion, common destiny and a sense of its uniqueness must be of decisive importance in the shaping of its existence. This means that the egotistical individualism of the liberal era must be overcome and replaced with a sense of community and collective responsibility ...

We believe it is precisely the new Germany that can, through bold resoluteness in the handling of the Jewish question, take a decisive step toward overcoming a problem which, in truth, will have to be dealt with by most European peoples ...

Our acknowledgment of Jewish nationality provides for a clear and sincere relationship to the German people and its national and racial realities. Precisely because we do not wish to falsify these fundamentals, because we, too, are against mixed marriage and are for maintaining the purity of the Jewish group and reject any trespasses in the cultural domain, we -- having been brought up in the German language and German culture -- can show an interest in the works and values of German culture with admiration and internal sympathy"

they were developing what is known as The Transfer Agreement.

the Haavara, in Hebrew. they signed off on it in 1933.

this thing was happening at the same time as "Judea" had "declared war on germany"! - boycotts and divestments.

anyways...i leave it anyone who cares to look for themselves at those details.

....


but what happens everytime you get this nationalism and supremacy going? it's always at the expense of someone else

some crackpot theory of how wonderful we are and how great the old days were and how we have to band together as one.
turning to outlandish stories of being the descendants of the gods ad nauseum.

i don't know how it happens...it just does. patriotism, chosen-ness of some variety weaponized i suppose.

fallen man. that's the only explanation.

we see around us even today, once the thing has legs, if anyone dares to suggest things are a little skewed and maybe we ought to slow this down, folks....in comes the silencing of dissent.

there's the biggest culprit of all. the shutting down of open discourse.
reason is dispensed with, and people adapt (survival i guess) - look at how the miserable North Korean powers have destroyed the people in every way. if they didn't cry convincingly enough when the great leader died they were shot.

you know?

hypnosis and group-think...terror.

propaganda is the most insidious invention ever.

i just deplore it. the only way to battle something you know is destructive is to understand how it works.
it may not make one immune to it completely, but there's some defense there.

critical thinking is just gone, Ken. it seems like.


.....

called away.
will be back later.

thanks again for the discussion Ken.
you're consistently sincere and genuine.
it matters.

forgive typos and rambling...out of time

Rather than quote your whole post and delete to get to one line, I'm cutting and pasting the key line:

critical thinking is just gone, Ken. it seems like.

Amen to that. But it's so hard to get facts. Show me a quote, and someone can say "that never influenced too many people". Show me a letter and they can say "it's forged". Show me a video, and "it's out of context". I think it matters more that we are loving to each other, just in the space around us we can control. Conspiracies and rumors of conspiracies are like wars, rumors of wars, and the poor, and I suppose rumors of poor. They are always with us.

Hitler was a product of his times and forces beyond his control. To an extent we all are. Forces generated by multifaceted plans prepared by the devil to prove to God what a worthless bunch we all are. Hitler's real problem is that he was willing to step into the role and let the forces mold him. It drove him crazy in the long run. It would be wise to learn a lesson from this, that we step into roles such as leader, social reformer, psudomessiah, etc. very carefully, and only to the extent we are called to by God. And even then, we need to be so careful. It did not work out that well for Samson, and he had God's call. Or for Saul, or for Solomon, with all his wisdom.

thanks for responding Ken.
i agree...everything is known by God and ordained by God.
and we make a difference right where we are planted.

Grace and Peace to you, in Christ our Lord
zone

I've been wanting to cogently, cohesively, and sequentially outline the progressions and contrasts of mathematical models/disciplines/schools bridging from the more ancient ages and leading into the Copernican era and beyond as it funneled to Relativity and foundations for launching quantum physics/mechanics etc.

A brief chronological listing of systems and paragraph summaries; and general references to parallels like alchemy and pharmakeia from ancient Taoism to the Middle Ages and into the commercial present day.

I just don't have the inherent background and breadth of knowledge, and it becomes slow and tedious, and sporadic. Any "flow chart" approach with narrative would be helpful. I hope that makes sense.