-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
D
Why do you accuse me of twisting scripture?
1 Timothy 4:1
"Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils"
I've seen it happen to someone, false doctrine led them astray. I also seen it lead to possession. She loved the Lord all her life (she is no longer alive) but nonetheless she got into some very bad false doctrine, the lady was convinced that she had became a prophet and later on became full blown possessed. This is not opinion, this is fact. I have no reason to lie.
If your going to say I'm twisting scripture, at least tell me why you think so and what the verse or verses in question are. That's a very serious thing.
1 Timothy 4:1
"Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils"
I've seen it happen to someone, false doctrine led them astray. I also seen it lead to possession. She loved the Lord all her life (she is no longer alive) but nonetheless she got into some very bad false doctrine, the lady was convinced that she had became a prophet and later on became full blown possessed. This is not opinion, this is fact. I have no reason to lie.
If your going to say I'm twisting scripture, at least tell me why you think so and what the verse or verses in question are. That's a very serious thing.
K
No...The Holy Spirit wasn't here yet to indwell believers. Judas was a believer not an in dwelled believer.
Even satan believes, but deceives.
John 16:7 Nevertheless, I am telling you the truth. It is for your benefit that I go away, because if I don't go away the Counselor will not come to you. If I go, I will send Him to you.
John 16:5-15 The Counselor’s Ministry
5 “But now I am going away to Him who sent Me, and not one of you asks Me, ‘Where are You going?’
6 Yet, because I have spoken these things to you, sorrow has filled your heart.
7 Nevertheless, I am telling you the truth. It is for your benefit that I go away, because if I don’t go away the Counselor will not come to you. If I go, I will send Him to you.
8 When He comes, He will convict the world about sin, righteousness, and judgment:
9 About sin, because they do not believe in Me;
10 about righteousness, because I am going to the Father and you will no longer see Me;
11 and about judgment, because the ruler of this world has been judged.
12 “I still have many things to tell you, but you can’t bear them now.
13 When the Spirit of truth comes, He will guide you into all the truth. For He will not speak on His own, but He will speak whatever He hears. He will also declare to you what is to come.
14 He will glorify Me, because He will take from what is Mine and declare it to you.
15 Everything the Father has is Mine. This is why I told you that He takes from what is Mine and will declare it to you.
Even satan believes, but deceives.
John 16:7 Nevertheless, I am telling you the truth. It is for your benefit that I go away, because if I don't go away the Counselor will not come to you. If I go, I will send Him to you.
John 16:5-15 The Counselor’s Ministry
5 “But now I am going away to Him who sent Me, and not one of you asks Me, ‘Where are You going?’
6 Yet, because I have spoken these things to you, sorrow has filled your heart.
7 Nevertheless, I am telling you the truth. It is for your benefit that I go away, because if I don’t go away the Counselor will not come to you. If I go, I will send Him to you.
8 When He comes, He will convict the world about sin, righteousness, and judgment:
9 About sin, because they do not believe in Me;
10 about righteousness, because I am going to the Father and you will no longer see Me;
11 and about judgment, because the ruler of this world has been judged.
12 “I still have many things to tell you, but you can’t bear them now.
13 When the Spirit of truth comes, He will guide you into all the truth. For He will not speak on His own, but He will speak whatever He hears. He will also declare to you what is to come.
14 He will glorify Me, because He will take from what is Mine and declare it to you.
15 Everything the Father has is Mine. This is why I told you that He takes from what is Mine and will declare it to you.
Revelation 3:5He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.
The Greek text from which the word "not" was translated from is a double negative which means He will never do that.
Here's why.
John 6:[SUP]38 [/SUP]For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me. [SUP]39 [/SUP]And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. [SUP]40 [/SUP]And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
However, one can find his part taken out of the Book of Life, which is his first inheritance to be where the Son is now with the Father in the holy city above.
John 14:1Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me. [SUP]2 [/SUP]In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. [SUP]3 [/SUP]And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.
Revelation 22:19And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.
So when God comes to judge His House at a time when faith is hard to find, many errant believers will find themselves left behind at the pre tribulational rapture event unless they look to the author & finisher of their faith to depart from iniquity before the Bridegroom comes. This is the warning to believers to be ready by continuing in His words to be His disciples.
Luke 12:[SUP]32 [/SUP]Fear not, little flock; for it is your Father's good pleasure to give you the kingdom....[SUP]34 [/SUP]For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also. [SUP]35 [/SUP]Let your loins be girded about, and your lights burning; [SUP]36 [/SUP]And ye yourselves like unto men that wait for their lord, when he will return from the wedding; that when he cometh and knocketh, they may open unto him immediately. [SUP]37 [/SUP]Blessed are those servants, whom the lord when he cometh shall find watching: verily I say unto you, that he shall gird himself, and make them to sit down to meat, and will come forth and serve them....
This is the consequences for not being ready: to have their portion cut asunder by beling left behind and thus appointed with the unbelievers to face the coming great tribulation.
[SUP]40 [/SUP]Be ye therefore ready also: for the Son of man cometh at an hour when ye think not. [SUP]41 [/SUP]Then Peter said unto him, Lord, speakest thou this parable unto us, or even to all? [SUP]42 [/SUP]And the Lord said, Who then is that faithful and wise steward, whom his lord shall make ruler over his household, to give them their portion of meat in due season? [SUP]43 [/SUP]Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing. [SUP]44 [/SUP]Of a truth I say unto you, that he will make him ruler over all that he hath. [SUP]45 [/SUP]But and if that servant say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; and shall begin to beat the menservants and maidens, and to eat and drink, and to be drunken; [SUP]46 [/SUP]The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers. [SUP]47 [/SUP]And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. [SUP]48 [/SUP]But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more. [SUP]49 [/SUP]I am come to send fire on the earth; and what will I, if it be already kindled?
Salvation can never be lost, but the first inheritance to be raptured can be lost which is why believers need to look to the Good Shepherd in trusting Him to have them ready and found abiding in Him by departing from iniquity.
Hebrews 12:1Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us, [SUP]2 [/SUP]Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.
So how they wish to receive the Kingdom of God is key: either they shall value it as the elect would, or they do not, like the prodigal son, but until the Bridegroom comes, it is not too late to be delivered from iniquity to be made ready by Him.
The Greek text from which the word "not" was translated from is a double negative which means He will never do that.
Here's why.
John 6:[SUP]38 [/SUP]For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me. [SUP]39 [/SUP]And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. [SUP]40 [/SUP]And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
However, one can find his part taken out of the Book of Life, which is his first inheritance to be where the Son is now with the Father in the holy city above.
John 14:1Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me. [SUP]2 [/SUP]In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. [SUP]3 [/SUP]And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.
Revelation 22:19And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.
So when God comes to judge His House at a time when faith is hard to find, many errant believers will find themselves left behind at the pre tribulational rapture event unless they look to the author & finisher of their faith to depart from iniquity before the Bridegroom comes. This is the warning to believers to be ready by continuing in His words to be His disciples.
Luke 12:[SUP]32 [/SUP]Fear not, little flock; for it is your Father's good pleasure to give you the kingdom....[SUP]34 [/SUP]For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also. [SUP]35 [/SUP]Let your loins be girded about, and your lights burning; [SUP]36 [/SUP]And ye yourselves like unto men that wait for their lord, when he will return from the wedding; that when he cometh and knocketh, they may open unto him immediately. [SUP]37 [/SUP]Blessed are those servants, whom the lord when he cometh shall find watching: verily I say unto you, that he shall gird himself, and make them to sit down to meat, and will come forth and serve them....
This is the consequences for not being ready: to have their portion cut asunder by beling left behind and thus appointed with the unbelievers to face the coming great tribulation.
[SUP]40 [/SUP]Be ye therefore ready also: for the Son of man cometh at an hour when ye think not. [SUP]41 [/SUP]Then Peter said unto him, Lord, speakest thou this parable unto us, or even to all? [SUP]42 [/SUP]And the Lord said, Who then is that faithful and wise steward, whom his lord shall make ruler over his household, to give them their portion of meat in due season? [SUP]43 [/SUP]Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing. [SUP]44 [/SUP]Of a truth I say unto you, that he will make him ruler over all that he hath. [SUP]45 [/SUP]But and if that servant say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; and shall begin to beat the menservants and maidens, and to eat and drink, and to be drunken; [SUP]46 [/SUP]The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers. [SUP]47 [/SUP]And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. [SUP]48 [/SUP]But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more. [SUP]49 [/SUP]I am come to send fire on the earth; and what will I, if it be already kindled?
Salvation can never be lost, but the first inheritance to be raptured can be lost which is why believers need to look to the Good Shepherd in trusting Him to have them ready and found abiding in Him by departing from iniquity.
Hebrews 12:1Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us, [SUP]2 [/SUP]Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.
So how they wish to receive the Kingdom of God is key: either they shall value it as the elect would, or they do not, like the prodigal son, but until the Bridegroom comes, it is not too late to be delivered from iniquity to be made ready by Him.
No one can judge anyone that profess Him on whethor or not they are a true believer or a true christian.
We are warned to beware of what and how we build on that foundation. Jesus had warned about suffering a thief to break through. That is applicable to those wayward believers that depart from faith, thinking they can receive the Holy Spirit again after a sign.
1 Timothy 4:1Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils; [SUP]2 [/SUP]Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;
Here is the prophesy that foretells that believers will depart from faith and thus be invaded to fall for them and after them.
Proverbs 25:[SUP]26 [/SUP]A righteous man falling down before the wicked is as a troubled fountain, and a corrupt spring. [SUP]27 [/SUP]It is not good to eat much honey: so for men to search their own glory is not glory. [SUP]28 [/SUP]He that hath no rule over his own spirit is like a city that is broken down, and without walls.
And yet these wayward believers are still His, but unless they repent by looking to the Son to deliver them, they run the risk of being left behind as God will excommunicate those not found abiding in Him.... unless they repent before the Bridegroom comes.
But it is important to note that they are still brothers even though they no longer walk after the tradition taught of us and are disorderly.
Thessalonians 3:1Finally, brethren, pray for us, that the word of the Lord may have free course, and be glorified, even as it is with you: [SUP]2 [/SUP]And that we may be delivered from unreasonable and wicked men: for all men have not faith. [SUP]3 [/SUP]But the Lord is faithful, who shall stablish you, and keep you from evil. [SUP]4 [/SUP]And we have confidence in the Lord touching you, that ye both do and will do the things which we command you. [SUP]5 [/SUP]And the Lord direct your hearts into the love of God, and into the patient waiting for Christ. [SUP]6 [/SUP]Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye withdraw yourselves from every brother that walketh disorderly, and not after the tradition which he received of us. [SUP]7 [/SUP]For yourselves know how ye ought to follow us: for we behaved not ourselves disorderly among you;.......[SUP]14 [/SUP]And if any man obey not our word by this epistle, note that man, and have no company with him, that he may be ashamed. [SUP]15 [/SUP]Yet count him not as an enemy, but admonish him as a brother.
This reference was towards the apostasy mentioned earler in the previous chapter.
2 Thessalonians 2:[SUP]9 [/SUP]Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, [SUP]10 [/SUP]And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. [SUP]11 [/SUP]And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: [SUP]12 [/SUP]That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
That damnation being having been cut asunder to have their portion from the holy city and appointed with the unbelievers.
Paul reminds them of how we had receoved the promise of the Spirit at our salvation to reproving that apostasy mentioned above.
2 Thessalonians 2:[SUP]13 [/SUP]But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth: [SUP]14 [/SUP]Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. [SUP]15 [/SUP]Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.
More proof that these prophesied believers falling away are still His:
John 10:1Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that entereth not by the door into the sheepfold, but climbeth up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber. [SUP]2 [/SUP]But he that entereth in by the door is the shepherd of the sheep. [SUP]3 [/SUP]To him the porter openeth; and the sheep hear his voice: and he calleth his own sheep by name, and leadeth them out. [SUP]4 [/SUP]And when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice. [SUP]5 [/SUP]And a stranger will they not follow, but will flee from him: for they know not the voice of strangers. [SUP]6 [/SUP]This parable spake Jesus unto them: but they understood not what things they were which he spake unto them. [SUP]7 [/SUP]Then said Jesus unto them again, Verily, verily, I say unto you, I am the door of the sheep. [SUP]8 [/SUP]All that ever came before me are thieves and robbers: but the sheep did not hear them. [SUP]9 [/SUP]I am the door:
So those believers that seek after receiving the Holy Spirit again after a sign of tongues that comes with no interpretation is the same as climbing up another way in approaching God the Father other than by way of the Son by asking the Spirit as if He can move on His own accord and be the One to ask for in getting tongues which comes with no interpretation that is an apt description of following after a stranger's voice as they continue to use that tongue as a prayer language, and thus coming before the Son as a thief, cutting inbetween us in our personal time of prayer with Him with babbling nonsense.
And yet they are His sheep even for following the stranger's voice as He says He MUST bring them as they will be MADE to hear His voice and be of the one fold and one shepherd.
John 10:[SUP]14 [/SUP]I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine. [SUP]15 [/SUP]As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep. [SUP]16 [/SUP]And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.
So this is why we can never judge a believer as if he was never saved, but we can judge as in correcting a believer when they are not abiding in Him as we are to withdraw from unrepentant believers to admonish them as a brother & not as an enemy.
We are warned to beware of what and how we build on that foundation. Jesus had warned about suffering a thief to break through. That is applicable to those wayward believers that depart from faith, thinking they can receive the Holy Spirit again after a sign.
1 Timothy 4:1Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils; [SUP]2 [/SUP]Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;
Here is the prophesy that foretells that believers will depart from faith and thus be invaded to fall for them and after them.
Proverbs 25:[SUP]26 [/SUP]A righteous man falling down before the wicked is as a troubled fountain, and a corrupt spring. [SUP]27 [/SUP]It is not good to eat much honey: so for men to search their own glory is not glory. [SUP]28 [/SUP]He that hath no rule over his own spirit is like a city that is broken down, and without walls.
And yet these wayward believers are still His, but unless they repent by looking to the Son to deliver them, they run the risk of being left behind as God will excommunicate those not found abiding in Him.... unless they repent before the Bridegroom comes.
But it is important to note that they are still brothers even though they no longer walk after the tradition taught of us and are disorderly.
Thessalonians 3:1Finally, brethren, pray for us, that the word of the Lord may have free course, and be glorified, even as it is with you: [SUP]2 [/SUP]And that we may be delivered from unreasonable and wicked men: for all men have not faith. [SUP]3 [/SUP]But the Lord is faithful, who shall stablish you, and keep you from evil. [SUP]4 [/SUP]And we have confidence in the Lord touching you, that ye both do and will do the things which we command you. [SUP]5 [/SUP]And the Lord direct your hearts into the love of God, and into the patient waiting for Christ. [SUP]6 [/SUP]Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye withdraw yourselves from every brother that walketh disorderly, and not after the tradition which he received of us. [SUP]7 [/SUP]For yourselves know how ye ought to follow us: for we behaved not ourselves disorderly among you;.......[SUP]14 [/SUP]And if any man obey not our word by this epistle, note that man, and have no company with him, that he may be ashamed. [SUP]15 [/SUP]Yet count him not as an enemy, but admonish him as a brother.
This reference was towards the apostasy mentioned earler in the previous chapter.
2 Thessalonians 2:[SUP]9 [/SUP]Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, [SUP]10 [/SUP]And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. [SUP]11 [/SUP]And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: [SUP]12 [/SUP]That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
That damnation being having been cut asunder to have their portion from the holy city and appointed with the unbelievers.
Paul reminds them of how we had receoved the promise of the Spirit at our salvation to reproving that apostasy mentioned above.
2 Thessalonians 2:[SUP]13 [/SUP]But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth: [SUP]14 [/SUP]Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. [SUP]15 [/SUP]Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.
More proof that these prophesied believers falling away are still His:
John 10:1Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that entereth not by the door into the sheepfold, but climbeth up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber. [SUP]2 [/SUP]But he that entereth in by the door is the shepherd of the sheep. [SUP]3 [/SUP]To him the porter openeth; and the sheep hear his voice: and he calleth his own sheep by name, and leadeth them out. [SUP]4 [/SUP]And when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice. [SUP]5 [/SUP]And a stranger will they not follow, but will flee from him: for they know not the voice of strangers. [SUP]6 [/SUP]This parable spake Jesus unto them: but they understood not what things they were which he spake unto them. [SUP]7 [/SUP]Then said Jesus unto them again, Verily, verily, I say unto you, I am the door of the sheep. [SUP]8 [/SUP]All that ever came before me are thieves and robbers: but the sheep did not hear them. [SUP]9 [/SUP]I am the door:
So those believers that seek after receiving the Holy Spirit again after a sign of tongues that comes with no interpretation is the same as climbing up another way in approaching God the Father other than by way of the Son by asking the Spirit as if He can move on His own accord and be the One to ask for in getting tongues which comes with no interpretation that is an apt description of following after a stranger's voice as they continue to use that tongue as a prayer language, and thus coming before the Son as a thief, cutting inbetween us in our personal time of prayer with Him with babbling nonsense.
And yet they are His sheep even for following the stranger's voice as He says He MUST bring them as they will be MADE to hear His voice and be of the one fold and one shepherd.
John 10:[SUP]14 [/SUP]I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine. [SUP]15 [/SUP]As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep. [SUP]16 [/SUP]And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.
So this is why we can never judge a believer as if he was never saved, but we can judge as in correcting a believer when they are not abiding in Him as we are to withdraw from unrepentant believers to admonish them as a brother & not as an enemy.
Still, judging someone from within is the same as judging someone from without. God looks upon our hearts and if we despise anyone even if we did not make it known to the errant believer, He will know.
I have been tempted with thinking worst case scenarios of being offended by those that believe in Him and yet they treat me as an unbeliever would, provoking me to wrath, and yet remembering that Christ died for us while we were yet sinners, setting forth the pattern of longsufferings towards those He would bring Home dictates that what I do to the least of the brethren, I would be doing it to Jesus... and so I lean on Him to forgive and love my enemies to be sons of the Highest.
That does not mean that I can have fellowship with those that work iniquity, but as led by Him, I should correct and withdraw from the unrepentant brother so that he may repent.
I have been tempted with thinking worst case scenarios of being offended by those that believe in Him and yet they treat me as an unbeliever would, provoking me to wrath, and yet remembering that Christ died for us while we were yet sinners, setting forth the pattern of longsufferings towards those He would bring Home dictates that what I do to the least of the brethren, I would be doing it to Jesus... and so I lean on Him to forgive and love my enemies to be sons of the Highest.
That does not mean that I can have fellowship with those that work iniquity, but as led by Him, I should correct and withdraw from the unrepentant brother so that he may repent.
K
This is about "ME" not anyone else.
I am not thinking anything about anyone. I am just stating a fact. Stop putting words in my answer.
What someone else does is none of my business until they make it my business. Then I am to love them and help as much as I can.
Everyone has something they need to work on.
TO BE DOERS OF THE WORD, NOT HEARERS ONLY. (7:21-29)
Christ here shows that it will not be enough to own him for our Master, only in word and tongue.
It is necessary to our happiness that we believe in Christ, that we repent of sin, that we live a holy life, that we love one another.
This is his will, even our sanctification. Let us take heed of resting in outward privileges and doings, lest we deceive ourselves, and perish eternally, as multitudes do, with a lie in our right hand.
Let every one that names the name of Christ, depart from all sin.
There are others, whose religion rests in bare hearing, and it goes no further; their heads are filled with empty notions. These two sorts of hearers are represented as two builders.
This parable teaches us to hear and do the sayings of the Lord Jesus: some may seem hard to flesh and blood, but they must be done.
Christ is laid for a foundation, and every thing besides Christ is sand.
Some build their hopes upon worldly prosperity; others upon an outward profession of religion.
Upon these they venture; but they are all sand, too weak to bear such a fabric as our hopes of heaven.
There is a storm coming that will try every man's work. When God takes away the soul, where is the hope of the hypocrite? The house fell in the storm, when the builder had most need of it, and expected it would be a shelter to him.
It fell when it was too late to build another. May the Lord make us wise builders for eternity.
Then nothing shall separate us from the love of Christ Jesus.
The multitudes were astonished at the wisdom and power of Christ's doctrine. And this sermon, ever so often read over, is always new.
Every word proves its Author to be Divine. Let us be more and more decided and earnest, making some one or other of these blessednesses and Christian graces the main subject of our thoughts, even for weeks together.
Let us not rest in general and confused desires after them, whereby we grasp at all, but catch nothing.
I am not thinking anything about anyone. I am just stating a fact. Stop putting words in my answer.
What someone else does is none of my business until they make it my business. Then I am to love them and help as much as I can.
Everyone has something they need to work on.
TO BE DOERS OF THE WORD, NOT HEARERS ONLY. (7:21-29)
Christ here shows that it will not be enough to own him for our Master, only in word and tongue.
It is necessary to our happiness that we believe in Christ, that we repent of sin, that we live a holy life, that we love one another.
This is his will, even our sanctification. Let us take heed of resting in outward privileges and doings, lest we deceive ourselves, and perish eternally, as multitudes do, with a lie in our right hand.
Let every one that names the name of Christ, depart from all sin.
There are others, whose religion rests in bare hearing, and it goes no further; their heads are filled with empty notions. These two sorts of hearers are represented as two builders.
This parable teaches us to hear and do the sayings of the Lord Jesus: some may seem hard to flesh and blood, but they must be done.
Christ is laid for a foundation, and every thing besides Christ is sand.
Some build their hopes upon worldly prosperity; others upon an outward profession of religion.
Upon these they venture; but they are all sand, too weak to bear such a fabric as our hopes of heaven.
There is a storm coming that will try every man's work. When God takes away the soul, where is the hope of the hypocrite? The house fell in the storm, when the builder had most need of it, and expected it would be a shelter to him.
It fell when it was too late to build another. May the Lord make us wise builders for eternity.
Then nothing shall separate us from the love of Christ Jesus.
The multitudes were astonished at the wisdom and power of Christ's doctrine. And this sermon, ever so often read over, is always new.
Every word proves its Author to be Divine. Let us be more and more decided and earnest, making some one or other of these blessednesses and Christian graces the main subject of our thoughts, even for weeks together.
Let us not rest in general and confused desires after them, whereby we grasp at all, but catch nothing.
Last edited:
K
i've been studying this for decades, and I think everybody's right. I know there are maybe five different definitions of "demon" out there, and different systems of terminology from "possessed", "obsessed", "controlled", "tempted", and each person does it different. We don't really need to worry about what "possessed" means, as the Bible normally uses the word "demonized" instead, which could me any kind of demonic effect. If you do a word study, you'll see that we really can't draw much from Scripture as to just what the divisions are here. The obvious thing is that there is a Satan, there are demons, and these can bother people in various ways, including even effects not easily explainable scientifically. the important thing is that no matter what the demon (or whatever it is) is doing, Jesus is victorious over it.
An easy sign of demonic possession in outright yelling cursing.
Please pray with me Ken(and all others); as I have a friend who totally reject the spirit realm.
They grew up in a pentecostal church and now - (through so many T.V. episodes and perusals of TIME magazine
completely reject the truth of the spirit).
They used to speak in tongues,....but are now too proud for it.
Their son has a complete infestation.
They won't hear of it.
Just an instance - I was talking to my friend last night over the phone.
As we hung up after saying goodbyes, a voice came over my answering machine with such vicious and languid profanities
that it boggled the mind even to hear it.(The son was listening in) - You can tell when yelling or cursing rips with demonic influence.
His father has had to call the police (to pick his own son up!); but still , no such thing as demon possession.
It's amazing.
For those of you who know demonic possession is real, please pray - his name Jonathan, - .....he was a beautiful child, so respectful, soft-spoken and meek.
Ken....how can you set someone free when they are harbored by their parents who laugh at the prospect?
How does that go? He's been in jail, juvenile hall, his parents had a restraining order against him.
(Though highly successful they are)
Please pray with me Ken(and all others); as I have a friend who totally reject the spirit realm.
They grew up in a pentecostal church and now - (through so many T.V. episodes and perusals of TIME magazine
completely reject the truth of the spirit).
They used to speak in tongues,....but are now too proud for it.
Their son has a complete infestation.
They won't hear of it.
Just an instance - I was talking to my friend last night over the phone.
As we hung up after saying goodbyes, a voice came over my answering machine with such vicious and languid profanities
that it boggled the mind even to hear it.(The son was listening in) - You can tell when yelling or cursing rips with demonic influence.
His father has had to call the police (to pick his own son up!); but still , no such thing as demon possession.
It's amazing.
For those of you who know demonic possession is real, please pray - his name Jonathan, - .....he was a beautiful child, so respectful, soft-spoken and meek.
Ken....how can you set someone free when they are harbored by their parents who laugh at the prospect?
How does that go? He's been in jail, juvenile hall, his parents had a restraining order against him.
(Though highly successful they are)
D
Your right as long as a believer is obedient and putting on the Armor of God. It is also written that if you resist the Devil he will flee from you....I'm not disputing the truth of that.
All I'm saying is, if a person succumbs to deception and backslides....starts engaging in sin/idolatry/witchcraft/false doctrine and doesn't ask God for help....it can make them vulnerable. You may think that situations like that aren't common but the devil is a skilled deceiver.....This is why we are told to be sober and to be vigilant. These are things I know to be fact, it's not something I believe blindly.
All I'm saying is, if a person succumbs to deception and backslides....starts engaging in sin/idolatry/witchcraft/false doctrine and doesn't ask God for help....it can make them vulnerable. You may think that situations like that aren't common but the devil is a skilled deceiver.....This is why we are told to be sober and to be vigilant. These are things I know to be fact, it's not something I believe blindly.
D
Hi and thank you for caring for this young man. I believe you and accept that he has a demonic issue. Unfortunately, if he is not willing to seek out his own freedom in Christ, there is little anyone can do for him. You asked for prayer and I agree that in this case prayer is what is needed.
I had a demonic issue and no one could of helped me because I rejected everything about Christ. At that time, no one could of got thru to me. Fortunately for me, I have a sister who prayed for my salvation every night before she went to sleep, for 10 years. Then God pulled the rug out from under me and in just 2 months time I did a 180 degree turn. One thing to consider is that all that I went thru during this time was not wasted. In fact, all that I went thru during that time, God has used for His glory and it all dovetailed into my current calling.
So by all means, please pray for his salvation and deliverance. Until he is willing to accept Jesus as his Lord and Savior and repent, he is not a candidate for deliverance. However, if God can save a rebellious fool like me, He can save anyone.
Lord Jesus we ask that Your will be done in this young man's life. We ask that You save him and deliver him. If this be Your will, in Jesus name we pray.
I had a demonic issue and no one could of helped me because I rejected everything about Christ. At that time, no one could of got thru to me. Fortunately for me, I have a sister who prayed for my salvation every night before she went to sleep, for 10 years. Then God pulled the rug out from under me and in just 2 months time I did a 180 degree turn. One thing to consider is that all that I went thru during this time was not wasted. In fact, all that I went thru during that time, God has used for His glory and it all dovetailed into my current calling.
So by all means, please pray for his salvation and deliverance. Until he is willing to accept Jesus as his Lord and Savior and repent, he is not a candidate for deliverance. However, if God can save a rebellious fool like me, He can save anyone.
Lord Jesus we ask that Your will be done in this young man's life. We ask that You save him and deliver him. If this be Your will, in Jesus name we pray.
Last edited by a moderator:
D
Sounds like we are now on the same page! I have stated numerous times exactly what demon possession is all about:
I agree with you if you mean by "true believer" a person who is doing his all to live for Christ. Like Donkeyfish07 said " A person can not engage in sin repetitively without repenting and expect there to be no consequences." This is very biblical. Can a man take fire into his bosom and not be burned?
2) You asked "Where did you get this from?" We have a case study of sin. Judas had a chronic sin issue. Judas was constantly lining his pockets with money. Then he sold Jesus for 30 pieces of shinny metal and then the bible says "Satan entered into to him" What more proof do you need?
Then you claimed it was because the Holy Spirit had not been given. Does this mean all of the Jews before pentacost were wide open to being possessed and had no protection from being possessed? Of course not! We see in scripture that Job had a hedge of Godly protection around him so that satan could not touch him BECAUSE HE WAS RIGHTEOUS.
That is why I posted that scripture:
We know that everyone who has been born of God does not keep on sinning, but he who was born of God protects him, and the evil one does not touch him. (1John 5:18 ESV)
Thanks for pondering this all.
Demon possession is a sin related condition.
1) You claim no true believer can be possessed.
I agree with you if you mean by "true believer" a person who is doing his all to live for Christ. Like Donkeyfish07 said " A person can not engage in sin repetitively without repenting and expect there to be no consequences." This is very biblical. Can a man take fire into his bosom and not be burned?
2) You asked "Where did you get this from?" We have a case study of sin. Judas had a chronic sin issue. Judas was constantly lining his pockets with money. Then he sold Jesus for 30 pieces of shinny metal and then the bible says "Satan entered into to him" What more proof do you need?
Then you claimed it was because the Holy Spirit had not been given. Does this mean all of the Jews before pentacost were wide open to being possessed and had no protection from being possessed? Of course not! We see in scripture that Job had a hedge of Godly protection around him so that satan could not touch him BECAUSE HE WAS RIGHTEOUS.
That is why I posted that scripture:
We know that everyone who has been born of God does not keep on sinning, but he who was born of God protects him, and the evil one does not touch him. (1John 5:18 ESV)
Thanks for pondering this all.
K
I did a quick study yesterday on NT references to possessed. In the gospels, it's "demonized". It is the KJV that introduced the term possessed here. Strong's 1139, middle voice of 1142, meaning "they affected themselves with a daimon". Now, the technical definition of daimon is a (discarnate) intelligence. The Greek's use the word that way, for example, the "daimon" of Einstein gave us the atomic bomb. This is very different from our notion, as it is not a fallen angel. Matt. 4:24;8:16;8:28;8:33;9:32;12:22. Mark 1:32;5:15-18; Luke 8:36;
There are 3 were mentions of the Greek phrase "possessed"; in all cases, they are about pagans. Acts 8:7 (by unclean spirits)-middle voice Acts 16:16 (by a spirit of diviniation) - active voice. Acts 19:13 by (hurtful spirits) - middle voice. These use the word "echo" for possessed (Strong's 2192). the middle voice indicates they participated in inviting the spirit. The active inidcates she summoned the spirit herself. If I'm reading the Greek grammar correctly.
Perhaps someone would like to put in a little more time and see if I got all the references correct? If I have this all correct, you must allow the demon to affect you (middle voice), and pagans get possessed, but Jews get demonized, which can cover various facets of demonic attack. No cases of Christians being affected are mentioned, but from experience I think we all know that there are Christians whose relationship with God is mostly law based, as was the Jews'. I have noticed that this is part of the problem.
There are 3 were mentions of the Greek phrase "possessed"; in all cases, they are about pagans. Acts 8:7 (by unclean spirits)-middle voice Acts 16:16 (by a spirit of diviniation) - active voice. Acts 19:13 by (hurtful spirits) - middle voice. These use the word "echo" for possessed (Strong's 2192). the middle voice indicates they participated in inviting the spirit. The active inidcates she summoned the spirit herself. If I'm reading the Greek grammar correctly.
Perhaps someone would like to put in a little more time and see if I got all the references correct? If I have this all correct, you must allow the demon to affect you (middle voice), and pagans get possessed, but Jews get demonized, which can cover various facets of demonic attack. No cases of Christians being affected are mentioned, but from experience I think we all know that there are Christians whose relationship with God is mostly law based, as was the Jews'. I have noticed that this is part of the problem.
K
"Oppressed" in our context occurs only once in the NT. Acts 10:38, but it clearly refers to "demonized" above, so it's great that you noticed it. The word is katadunasteo (Strong's 2616), traces back to 1410 "dunamis", which is identical with the works of power used in the establishment of the church in I Cor. 12:28, and with miracles generally. It reminds me that Satan has a collection of believers also (Rev. 2:9; 3:9). The phrase here is "oppressed by the devil" using the word Diabolos. "Diabolos" is to "hurl across". The objects being hurled are conisdered to be "accusations", and "Satan" is the Hebrew for accuser.
The meaning, which is what I have always understood, is also thus that of "demonized', and it means that Satan is exercising the power of his ownership of earth (given to him by Adam) over a person. Vexing him, talking to him constantly, not letting him alone. We are told, "resist the devil and he will flee" (James 4:7), but many Christians are immature, or not properly trained, and do not know this. The devil wears them down, and they find themselves doing things they do not want to do, just from sheer exhaustion. This is how police sometimes get people to confess to things they do not do. That's what I understand by oppression. A person oppressed knows what he is doing, could stop if he wanted to badly enough, but is too worn out to fight.
A possessed person does not care to fight back, probably does not even know that there is anything wrong. The devil owns the person in some sense. We note that only pagans were possessed. The middle voice suggests they all started out allowing it. The middle voice is like in English we say "I caught myself a cold" when really the cold caught you.
The meaning, which is what I have always understood, is also thus that of "demonized', and it means that Satan is exercising the power of his ownership of earth (given to him by Adam) over a person. Vexing him, talking to him constantly, not letting him alone. We are told, "resist the devil and he will flee" (James 4:7), but many Christians are immature, or not properly trained, and do not know this. The devil wears them down, and they find themselves doing things they do not want to do, just from sheer exhaustion. This is how police sometimes get people to confess to things they do not do. That's what I understand by oppression. A person oppressed knows what he is doing, could stop if he wanted to badly enough, but is too worn out to fight.
A possessed person does not care to fight back, probably does not even know that there is anything wrong. The devil owns the person in some sense. We note that only pagans were possessed. The middle voice suggests they all started out allowing it. The middle voice is like in English we say "I caught myself a cold" when really the cold caught you.
Last edited by a moderator: