Major issues in reading the Bible.

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Willie-T

Willie-T

Banned
#81
Feb 7, 2015
22,418
413
0
#81
Chapel said:
Every single Christian I have ever met, have all said to look to the Bible for answers. You are the one and only exception.

***

One final thing; then I really have to go for the day.

I have been a witness to many (nearly countless) bad things; and I am not unique in that aspect; it is something that is unfortunately common amongst many.

And being raised in the church, I was always told that Man was responsible for the bad things because he CHOSE to do bad. I was always told that Satan and his followers were responsible for the bad.

I am a naturally good artist. I practically popped out of the womb with a pencil and paper doing drawings. But despite this, there has been some of my art that people did not like, that people were able to point out the flaws in. And in this flawed art, I would instantly except that the reason it was flawed was because of me; because of something that I did wrong. I did not BLAME MY CREATION for being flawed.

It boggles my mind how Christians cannot see that a SUPREME ARCHITECT (God), who is in control of every single minute particle of everything...is totally, completely, blameless. It boggles my mind how Christians cannot see that this artwork, which is our lives, which is this world...is flawed, because the artist is as well.
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And this follower of Christ is telling you to also look to the bible for answers.... but NOT to try to find God in some of the history related.

If Jesus did not tell us to emulate a Zeus-like god, but rather to look only at Him, and do as He did, why would we think we are, instead, supposed to "smite' people and rain down fire and brimstone on them?
 
C

Chapel

Guest
#82
#82
Willie T,

You have given so much great advice that it is difficult to know were to start, in regards to comments to that advice.

There was one particular statement you made that I wish you would expand on a little if you can:

I made the comment about how God DEMANDS that we love Him, or die; to which you responded... "who told you this?" You seem to be a smart guy, so I am taking it that you understand that "or die" means "burn in Hell",

To answer your question; reading the Bible, a strict Christian up-bringing, and many conversations with spiritual people have "told" me that one MUST love God, or He is not pleased with you.

In your question, "who told you this?", are you insinuating that I...a person who doubts the love of God...will still see Heaven? Or will I go to Hell...because I do not have total love, confidence, or faith in Him?
 
1

1LonelyKnight

Guest
#83
#83
Chapel said:
Willie T,

You have given so much great advice that it is difficult to know were to start, in regards to comments to that advice.

There was one particular statement you made that I wish you would expand on a little if you can:

I made the comment about how God DEMANDS that we love Him, or die; to which you responded... "who told you this?" You seem to be a smart guy, so I am taking it that you understand that "or die" means "burn in Hell",

To answer your question; reading the Bible, a strict Christian up-bringing, and many conversations with spiritual people have "told" me that one MUST love God, or He is not pleased with you.

In your question, "who told you this?", are you insinuating that I...a person who doubts the love of God...will still see Heaven? Or will I go to Hell...because I do not have total love, confidence, or faith in Him?
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If a doctor examines you, your family and personal health history and tells you to give up alcohol, tobacco, salt, fat , sugar , red meat, sedentary or stressful lifestyle etc. because it will worsen your condition and lead to suffering and perhaps death you might see the logic in the counseling.

Likewise with spiritual attitudes and social and personal behaviors, one thing leads to another and we can develop a lifestyle and personality that is toxic to self and others. Pride, Envy, Gluttony, Sloth, Lust, Avarice (greed) and Wrath are considered such attitudes and behaviors that can lead to suffering and perhaps attack, be it simple rejection by others, the loss of a relationship or job or perhaps a crime against the person or their material possessions, ultimately leading to terrorism or even war when as a group society and individuals condone, promote and live such lifestyles or carry such attitudes. I hope the logic makes a connection.
 
C

Chapel

Guest
#84
#84
Your post does not necessarily address the issue; but I get the point.
 
1

1LonelyKnight

Guest
#85
#85
Chapel said:
Your post does not necessarily address the issue; but I get the point.
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Perhaps the issue is understanding God. God is spirit! Jesus, the Word of God made flesh lived and taught, clarified and corrected the teachings of scripture. By these teachings - learning and living them - like a great physician we see what causes and what avoids suffering. When we see the logic (Logos) of these teachings and commit to them we are "justified" by the truth of these teachings, have come to a saving knowledge by these teachings and as a continuum, are being sanctified as we walk in the teachings. The converse is also true.
 
J

jogoldie

Senior Member
#86
Mar 20, 2014
1,616
48
48
#86
God designed the Bible to confuse the unbeliever...He instructs us to read Scripture under the Holy Spirits guidance...
to do this we simply need to ask for it...pray before you read...this will help immensely...
confusion is not of God..it is the devils ugly trick...
also...the Bible is like a tapestry...woven together bit by bit...pray for understanding...
God gives us choices...choose to follow Him...or risk living a life making the dumb choices over and over again..
if we choose Him..then He can help us...choose to do it on your own...He will wait and allow us to fall on our own...
the questions you ask are good....you ask what people are afraid to ask...no judgement here my brother...
keep reaching and soon you will find what you seek...peace...jo
 
willfollowsGod

willfollowsGod

Senior Member
#87
Apr 14, 2011
1,515
66
48
33
#87
Chapel, I think you are making a common error that humans do. You are trying to make the Creator of the universe, God, fit in your box. The creator and the creation are different. There are characteristics that God has that we do not have and characteristics that we have that God does not have. In the Bible, there is a difference between the Creator and the creation. For example, if you actually read the stories about God's judgment, God explains why he is doing it and as it says in Ezekiel he does not take pleasure in afflicting the wicked but that they would turn from their ways and be saved. Also, remember that God is not just a God of love but he is also a God of justice, as shown in both the Old and New Testaments. When Jesus died on the cross for your sins because he loved you, he also did it to satisfy the wrath of God that was upon men because of the sins that we have committed against him as mentioned in John 3:16-18. As for having the Bible opened up to you, I recommend reading the New Testament first as it is, without yourself manipulating the text and without leaning on your own understanding. Let the Bible read you, instead of you wanting to read things into it. What started me having a hunger for God's word, was reading Our Daily Bread, a devotional booklet, and reading the verses presented, as well as the application. As soon as I did that a lot, the Bible began to unlock for me and I started to understand it better. Though there are certain parts I still will not understand on this side of Earth. God bless you in your spiritual journey and ask the Holy Spirit for His guidance in reading the Bible.
 
willfollowsGod

willfollowsGod

Senior Member
#88
Apr 14, 2011
1,515
66
48
33
#88
Willie-T said:
You do know, don't you, that is completely contradictory to Scripture?
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Actually, what she said is not contradictory to Scripture and is present in the Old and New Testaments. The only reason why we are not already dead physically by God's hand is because of his mercy and grace to us in our present sinful condition. God is holy and we are not. Since he is holy, no sin can enter his presence. In order to have a personal relationship with Him, we have to give our sin to Jesus and accept Him as our personal Savior and sovereign Lord, that he died on the cross for our sins, rose again on the third day, and begin to live a new life in Christ. If we don't do that, then God cannot accept us into His presence. So I do not understand your beef, but I also know that even older Christians might not get something, but it is best to avoid knee-jerk reactions like you just had. God bless. :)
 
C

Chapel

Guest
#89
#89
jogoldie said:
God designed the Bible to confuse the unbeliever...He instructs us to read Scripture under the Holy Spirits guidance...
to do this we simply need to ask for it...pray before you read...this will help immensely...
confusion is not of God..it is the devils ugly trick...
also...the Bible is like a tapestry...woven together bit by bit...pray for understanding...
God gives us choices...choose to follow Him...or risk living a life making the dumb choices over and over again..
if we choose Him..then He can help us...choose to do it on your own...He will wait and allow us to fall on our own...
the questions you ask are good....you ask what people are afraid to ask...no judgement here my brother...
keep reaching and soon you will find what you seek...peace...jo
Click to expand...

Thank you jogoldie, I greatly appreciate your response!

But I have a couple comments/ questions about your response. First you state that the Bible was designed to "confuse the unbeliever"... But in a way, that does not make sense; as the entire purpose of even reading the Bible is to obtain understanding. If someone is an unbeliever, but wants to become a believer, then the obvious answer to obtaining knowledge in order to become a believer...would be to read the Bible. Therefore, it does not make sense that God would prevent people from trying to obtain knowledge. And by preventing that knowledge, God would be potentially be preventing people from becoming believers.

Secondly; in one sentence you state: "God designed the Bible to confuse the unbeliever", then in the next you state: " confusion is not of God..."which is a contradiction to the first statement.

Also... I know MANY people who ARE believers, and are still confused by the Bible.

jogoldie; I want you to know that the statements I made to you are not made with the intention of being confrontational; I just want you to be on the same page. Thank you again for your comments.
 
Willie-T

Willie-T

Banned
#90
Feb 7, 2015
22,418
413
0
#90
willfollowsGod said:
Actually, what she said is not contradictory to Scripture and is present in the Old and New Testaments. The only reason why we are not already dead physically by God's hand is because of his mercy and grace to us in our present sinful condition. God is holy and we are not. Since he is holy, no sin can enter his presence. In order to have a personal relationship with Him, we have to give our sin to Jesus and accept Him as our personal Savior and sovereign Lord, that he died on the cross for our sins, rose again on the third day, and begin to live a new life in Christ. If we don't do that, then God cannot accept us into His presence. So I do not understand your beef, but I also know that even older Christians might not get something, but it is best to avoid knee-jerk reactions like you just had. God bless. :)
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Was Jesus, God?

But, if that gives you a problem, did not God stand right there, speaking directly with the sinners, Adam and Eve and Cain?
 
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Willie-T

Willie-T

Banned
#91
Feb 7, 2015
22,418
413
0
#91
Chapel said:
Willie T,

You have given so much great advice that it is difficult to know were to start, in regards to comments to that advice.

There was one particular statement you made that I wish you would expand on a little if you can:

I made the comment about how God DEMANDS that we love Him, or die; to which you responded... "who told you this?" You seem to be a smart guy, so I am taking it that you understand that "or die" means "burn in Hell",

To answer your question; reading the Bible, a strict Christian up-bringing, and many conversations with spiritual people have "told" me that one MUST love God, or He is not pleased with you.

In your question, "who told you this?", are you insinuating that I...a person who doubts the love of God...will still see Heaven? Or will I go to Hell...because I do not have total love, confidence, or faith in Him?
Click to expand...
Do you think Peter is in Heaven?
What is the question Jesus asked Peter when He reached out and kept him from sinking after he walked on the lake a few steps?

I don't think I have to tell you, but I will. He said: "Oh you of LITTLE FAITH; why did (do) you doubt?"

Do you have ANY belief or faith, at all? ANY? You must, or you would not be here still searching. And how much faith do we have to have? What amount, in order to qualify to enter the kingdom?
 
C

Chapel

Guest
#92
#92
Willie-T said:
Do you have ANY belief or faith, at all? ANY? You must, or you would not be here still searching. And how much faith do we have to have? What amount, in order to qualify to enter the kingdom?
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Willie T,

I have faith; but very little. And you are right, it is that little faith which keeps me searching, rather than giving up completely.

In Luke 17:6, it is stated that if you have even the faith the size of a mustard seed, then you can uproot a mulberry tree just by speaking (figuratively). In Matthew, it is a mountain.

But the example that you gave of Peter, is proof enough that having just a little faith is not enough to stop you from sinking. Thus...a little faith is not enough to get you to Heaven.

Odd story:

In my place of employment, a Missionary walked through the doors to get service. This...man of God...starting talking to one of my female employees, one minute spitting Bible verses perfectly, the next, speaking perversions to her. I was...BEYOND pissed, that a man who was supposed to be a spokes-person for God was acting in this way. I shot back Bible verses at him which caused him to hang his head and leave. I was so infuriated!

Afterward I reflected in the event, and I couldn't help but laugh. I found it funny that I...pretty much an unbeliever...had more respect for God then someone who is supposed to be spreading His word.
 
Willie-T

Willie-T

Banned
#93
Feb 7, 2015
22,418
413
0
#93
Chapel said:
Willie T,

I have faith; but very little. And you are right, it is that little faith which keeps me searching, rather than giving up completely.

In Luke 17:6, it is stated that if you have even the faith the size of a mustard seed, then you can uproot a mulberry tree just by speaking (figuratively). In Matthew, it is a mountain.

But the example that you gave of Peter, is proof enough that having just a little faith is not enough to stop you from sinking. Thus...a little faith is not enough to get you to Heaven.

Odd story:

In my place of employment, a Missionary walked through the doors to get service. This...man of God...starting talking to one of my female employees, one minute spitting Bible verses perfectly, the next, speaking perversions to her. I was...BEYOND pissed, that a man who was supposed to be a spokes-person for God was acting in this way. I shot back Bible verses at him which caused him to hang his head and leave. I was so infuriated!

Afterward I reflected in the event, and I couldn't help but laugh. I found it funny that I...pretty much an unbeliever...had more respect for God then someone who is supposed to be spreading His word.
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So, does that tell you anything about faith? I think it says that whatever faith anyone has is enough... "it is sufficient."

Sometimes I think that if we had more, we really wouldn't be doing things "in faith." We would be doing them only because we felt guaranteed, comfortable, safe assurance. Shoot, if you know everything will always go right, and you can never look like a fool, you will attempt ANYTHING. Is that REALLY stepping out in faith, to you? Yet, isn't THAT when we are supposed to be moving (when we AREN'T sure)? You aren't trusting God if you already see the answer.
 
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C

Chapel

Guest
#94
#94
That is a good point. So I would say yes, I have faith; but wouldn't the other...less than honorable aspects of my life...render that faith useless? My faith would mean nothing if I were (for example) living in adultry.
 
Willie-T

Willie-T

Banned
#95
Feb 7, 2015
22,418
413
0
#95
Chapel said:
That is a good point. So I would say yes, I have faith; but wouldn't the other...less than honorable aspects of my life...render that faith useless? My faith would mean nothing if I were (for example) living in adultry.
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Then don't live in adultery. THAT is the whole point of free will. The Bible never even mentions "Don't screw up." It says not to shoot for that goal.
 
C

Chapel

Guest
#96
#96
Willie-T said:
Then don't live in adultery. THAT is the whole point of free will. The Bible never even mentions "Don't screw up." It says not to shoot for that goal.
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I see your point. But I was only using adultry as an example. On a real, more personal level: if I have a little faith, but I do not believe that God is "all good"...does that belief cancel out my faith? As it it seems to be a requirement of Christianity, to believe that God is good, no matter what. To not believe that is unchristian...is it not?
 
Willie-T

Willie-T

Banned
#97
Feb 7, 2015
22,418
413
0
#97
Chapel said:
I see your point. But I was only using adultry as an example. On a real, more personal level: if I have a little faith, but I do not believe that God is "all good"...does that belief cancel out my faith? As it it seems to be a requirement of Christianity, to believe that God is good, no matter what. To not believe that is unchristian...is it not?
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I like being more real and personal. The silliness on this forum often disgusts me with all the "what if's."

Why do you believe God is not good?

If you say it is because you read some bad things in the Bible, then I have to ask why you are selectively choosing to believe that, and, yet, not believing Jesus' words about being the perfect and accurate picture of God.

You do know, do you not, that Jesus constantly told those people, back then, that they had a lot of things all wrong from just coming to conclusions by reading Scripture........ and that He had come to, in part, straighten out many of those misconceptions. The same misconceptions you may have.
 
C

Chapel

Guest
#98
#98
Willie-T said:
Then don't live in adultery. THAT is the whole point of free will. The Bible never even mentions "Don't screw up." It says not to shoot for that goal.
Click to expand...
willfollowsGod said:
Chapel, I think you are making a common error that humans do. You are trying to make the Creator of the universe, God, fit in your box. The creator and the creation are different. There are characteristics that God has that we do not have and characteristics that we have that God does not have. In the Bible, there is a difference between the Creator and the creation. For example, if you actually read the stories about God's judgment, God explains why he is doing it and as it says in Ezekiel he does not take pleasure in afflicting the wicked but that they would turn from their ways and be saved. Also, remember that God is not just a God of love but he is also a God of justice, as shown in both the Old and New Testaments. When Jesus died on the cross for your sins because he loved you, he also did it to satisfy the wrath of God that was upon men because of the sins that we have committed against him as mentioned in John 3:16-18. As for having the Bible opened up to you, I recommend reading the New Testament first as it is, without yourself manipulating the text and without leaning on your own understanding. Let the Bible read you, instead of you wanting to read things into it. What started me having a hunger for God's word, was reading Our Daily Bread, a devotional booklet, and reading the verses presented, as well as the application. As soon as I did that a lot, the Bible began to unlock for me and I started to understand it better. Though there are certain parts I still will not understand on this side of Earth. God bless you in your spiritual journey and ask the Holy Spirit for His guidance in reading the Bible.
Click to expand...

willfollowsGod,

Like a number of people that I have exchanged statements with in this room, I can tell that you have a great bit of wisdom. I agree with you completely that a part of my problem is that I Try to put God in a "box".

I wish to ask you about a statement you made... A statement that many Christians make... The statement about how Jesus died for our sins, the sins that we committed against God...in order to prevent us from suffering His wrath. This is also a question that many Christians tend to ignore:

Are you, or I, or anyone, born with the CHOICE to NOT be a sinner?

You see; if, by some cosmic event in which we were given a choice to be a sinner or not before we were born in the flesh...I would venture to say that 100% of people would choose NOT to be a sinner...thus preventing the possibility of receiving any sort of wrath from God. Thing is though...that's not a choice we are given.

So...it makes me kind of angry when Christians are like..."YOU are so bad, and YOU are so HORRIBLE because YOU are a sinner! And because YOU are a sinner; God sent His son so that YOU...in all of your horribleness, can be saved!

But a fact that most Christian overlook, is that we are sinners by nature, because this is how God designed us to be (He did not have to create the tree of knowledge).

He would not have had to save us, if He had not created the circumstances in which we need to now be saved from.
 
Willie-T

Willie-T

Banned
#99
Feb 7, 2015
22,418
413
0
#99
Chapel said:
willfollowsGod,

Like a number of people that I have exchanged statements with in this room, I can tell that you have a great bit of wisdom. I agree with you completely that a part of my problem is that I Try to put God in a "box".

I wish to ask you about a statement you made... A statement that many Christians make... The statement about how Jesus died for our sins, the sins that we committed against God...in order to prevent us from suffering His wrath. This is also a question that many Christians tend to ignore:

Are you, or I, or anyone, born with the CHOICE to NOT be a sinner?

You see; if, by some cosmic event in which we were given a choice to be a sinner or not before we were born in the flesh...I would venture to say that 100% of people would choose NOT to be a sinner...thus preventing the possibility of receiving any sort of wrath from God. Thing is though...that's not a choice we are given.

So...it makes me kind of angry when Christians are like..."YOU are so bad, and YOU are so HORRIBLE because YOU are a sinner! And because YOU are a sinner; God sent His son so that YOU...in all of your horribleness, can be saved!

But a fact that most Christian overlook, is that we are sinners by nature, because this is how God designed us to be (He did not have to create the tree of knowledge).

He would not have had to save us, if He had not created the circumstances in which we need to now be saved from.
Click to expand...
How did you come to that conclusion? (It's not in the Bible, BTW.)
 
willfollowsGod

willfollowsGod

Senior Member
#100
Apr 14, 2011
1,515
66
48
33
#100
Chapel said:
willfollowsGod,

Like a number of people that I have exchanged statements with in this room, I can tell that you have a great bit of wisdom. I agree with you completely that a part of my problem is that I Try to put God in a "box".

I wish to ask you about a statement you made... A statement that many Christians make... The statement about how Jesus died for our sins, the sins that we committed against God...in order to prevent us from suffering His wrath. This is also a question that many Christians tend to ignore:

Are you, or I, or anyone, born with the CHOICE to NOT be a sinner?

You see; if, by some cosmic event in which we were given a choice to be a sinner or not before we were born in the flesh...I would venture to say that 100% of people would choose NOT to be a sinner...thus preventing the possibility of receiving any sort of wrath from God. Thing is though...that's not a choice we are given.

So...it makes me kind of angry when Christians are like..."YOU are so bad, and YOU are so HORRIBLE because YOU are a sinner! And because YOU are a sinner; God sent His son so that YOU...in all of your horribleness, can be saved!

But a fact that most Christian overlook, is that we are sinners by nature, because this is how God designed us to be (He did not have to create the tree of knowledge).

He would not have had to save us, if He had not created the circumstances in which we need to now be saved from.
Click to expand...
We are not born with the choice to not be a sinner because of the disobedience of Adam and Eve in the garden of Eden by eating from the tree, the one commandment they were given from God during that time, not to eat from that tree. Now, in the garden of Eden before sin entered the world, Adam and Eve were born not sinners but that changed when they went against the command that God lovingly gave. I love you and I am sorry you have had bad experiences with ''Christians''. God wanted to give us the choice do we want our will or His will. Otherwise, we would only operate as robots. He did not create the circumstances, the circumstances are a result of the sin that came into the world that messed up the animals, humans, brought in diseases, etc. It is not God's fault for all that coming, but everyday and when God sent his son Jesus to die on the cross for our sins because he loved us and to take the wrath of God upon himself that we deserved since the wages of sin is death as Romans tells us. He did not design us to be sinners, in fact he declared all humans good but sadly we have been corrupted by sin. God bless and may you find what you seek.
 
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