Do We Have To Keep The Law?
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7
I was actually giving some thought to this the other day
if you think about it, the 'new' commandment given by Jesus ais not really new (and He knew that) He simply fulfilled the commandments with a few words and if you apply what Jesus said and what Paul said(see below) you ARE keeping the commandments
The 10 Commandments List, Short Form
here are the words of Jesus as recorded in I John
If you love one another, then God abides in you (by His Spirit and the Holy Spirit does not teach against the Bible)
If you love God will you worship or create new gods?
If you love God will you use His name in a false way? (I think this goes far past swearing or cursing...it also reflects on using His name to make money and fleece His sheep)
If you love God you will honor Him in every day and putting aside one day a week to do so is not without merit, however in light of the NT teaching, I would think every day is an opportunity to honor God. Holy means 'set apart' . think about how a Christian is supposed to be holy...means set apart...ie not partaking of the world as if you never heard the gospel
God is about family...His, yours and the neighbors. Honor as in respect...it does not mean obey. you can still say no as an adult and respect people.
and Paul states this in Romans:
8 [FONT="]Owe no one anything except to love one another, for he who loves another has fulfilled the law.[/FONT]. 13:8
if you love your neighbor, are you going to murder him/her?
Are you going to commit adultery with one of them?
Are you going to steal from them?
Are you going to make up lies about them?
Are you going to be jealous of them and want what they have?
there is so much in the NT about obeying the law and yet some insist it is only the commandment Jesus gave as if it absolves them of God
does Jesus override God the Father? Jesus said He came to do the will of His Father
some people need to really think through what they are saying and reflect on all the Bible teaches
and still, no one says that fulfilling the law (through love and yes, obedience because love, as God, Jesus and Paul speak of it, is obedience. what do you think a command is? a suggestion? stop saying you just obey Jesus when really you don't understand what Jesus was saying
if you think about it, the 'new' commandment given by Jesus ais not really new (and He knew that) He simply fulfilled the commandments with a few words and if you apply what Jesus said and what Paul said(see below) you ARE keeping the commandments
The 10 Commandments List, Short Form
- You shall have no other gods before Me.
- You shall not make idols.
- You shall not take the name of the LORD your God in vain.
- Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy.
- Honor your father and your mother.
- You shall not murder.
- You shall not commit adultery.
- You shall not steal.
- You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.
- You shall not covet.
here are the words of Jesus as recorded in I John
- 1 John 3:11: For this is the message which ye heard from the beginning, that we should love one another
- 1 John 3:23: And this is his commandment, that we should believe in the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, even as he gave us commandment.
- 1 John 4:7: let us love one another: for love is of God;
- 1 John 4:12: No man hath beheld God at any time: if we love one another, God abideth in us, and his love is perfected in us.
If you love one another, then God abides in you (by His Spirit and the Holy Spirit does not teach against the Bible)
If you love God will you worship or create new gods?
If you love God will you use His name in a false way? (I think this goes far past swearing or cursing...it also reflects on using His name to make money and fleece His sheep)
If you love God you will honor Him in every day and putting aside one day a week to do so is not without merit, however in light of the NT teaching, I would think every day is an opportunity to honor God. Holy means 'set apart' . think about how a Christian is supposed to be holy...means set apart...ie not partaking of the world as if you never heard the gospel
God is about family...His, yours and the neighbors. Honor as in respect...it does not mean obey. you can still say no as an adult and respect people.
and Paul states this in Romans:
8 [FONT="]Owe no one anything except to love one another, for he who loves another has fulfilled the law.[/FONT]. 13:8
if you love your neighbor, are you going to murder him/her?
Are you going to commit adultery with one of them?
Are you going to steal from them?
Are you going to make up lies about them?
Are you going to be jealous of them and want what they have?
there is so much in the NT about obeying the law and yet some insist it is only the commandment Jesus gave as if it absolves them of God
does Jesus override God the Father? Jesus said He came to do the will of His Father
some people need to really think through what they are saying and reflect on all the Bible teaches
and still, no one says that fulfilling the law (through love and yes, obedience because love, as God, Jesus and Paul speak of it, is obedience. what do you think a command is? a suggestion? stop saying you just obey Jesus when really you don't understand what Jesus was saying
N
Does how well a born again believer keeps the law have anything to do with him/her being saved?
No.
As children of God..... should we not only do our absolute best to walk in the spirit... keep His commands... deny our flesh and its lusts....
but also pray for Him to lead us.....
deliver us from temptation
and use us for good.... as shining examples that point to Him as our source of love, wisdom, joy, strength...
Yup.....
No.
As children of God..... should we not only do our absolute best to walk in the spirit... keep His commands... deny our flesh and its lusts....
but also pray for Him to lead us.....
deliver us from temptation
and use us for good.... as shining examples that point to Him as our source of love, wisdom, joy, strength...
Yup.....
E
Obeying gods commands and following the law is two different things, this is the part you do not get, the law demands perfection, if your not perfect, you have failed to follow it,
i do not go to the law to see how to obey God, it was not given for that purpose, i learn to love God, then ALL others,
i do not go to the law to see how to obey God, it was not given for that purpose, i learn to love God, then ALL others,
E
Lol yeah, whatever dude, it happens in all threads. Anytime a person is speaking against works of any type, they are not attacjing ibedience, they are attacking a works gosel,
if you do not teach a works gospel then we are not talking to you, yet you come at us at every move so what else are we to believe?
Fact is those who enter do guard His Commands/Law:
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Revelation 14:12-13, “Here is the endurance of the set-apart ones, here are those guarding the Commands of [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]יהוה [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]and the Belief of [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]יהושע[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]. And I heard a voice out of the heaven saying to me, Write, Blessed are the dead who die in the Master from now on. Yes, says the Spirit, in order that they rest from their labors, and their works follow with them.”
and the Messiah said it, I just quoted it... yet His words if spoken from my mouth would surely bring much accusation.
[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Revelation 22:11-15, “He who does wrong, let him do more wrong; he who is filthy, let him be more filthy; he who is righteous, let him be more righteous; he who is set-apart, let him be more set-apart. And behold, I come quickly, and My reward is with Me, to give every man according as his work will be. I am the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End. Blessed are those who keep His Laws, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. For outside are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and worshipers of gods and everyone who professes to love, yet practices falsehood.”[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]
[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Revelation 14:12-13, “Here is the endurance of the set-apart ones, here are those guarding the Commands of [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]יהוה [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]and the Belief of [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]יהושע[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]. And I heard a voice out of the heaven saying to me, Write, Blessed are the dead who die in the Master from now on. Yes, says the Spirit, in order that they rest from their labors, and their works follow with them.”
and the Messiah said it, I just quoted it... yet His words if spoken from my mouth would surely bring much accusation.
[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Revelation 22:11-15, “He who does wrong, let him do more wrong; he who is filthy, let him be more filthy; he who is righteous, let him be more righteous; he who is set-apart, let him be more set-apart. And behold, I come quickly, and My reward is with Me, to give every man according as his work will be. I am the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End. Blessed are those who keep His Laws, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. For outside are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and worshipers of gods and everyone who professes to love, yet practices falsehood.”[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]
[/FONT]
N
philippians 3
3 For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh.
4 Though I might also have confidence in the flesh. If any other man thinketh that he hath whereof he might trust in the flesh, I more:
5 Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee;
6 Concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless.
7 But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ.
8 Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ,
9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:
3 For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh.
4 Though I might also have confidence in the flesh. If any other man thinketh that he hath whereof he might trust in the flesh, I more:
5 Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee;
6 Concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless.
7 But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ.
8 Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ,
9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:
That is descriptive of believers.
Works follow as the fruit of salvation, but not the root of it.
It depends on your interpretation.
Descriptive of unbelievers.
Descriptive of believers.
*Notice "reward" (not eternal life) is connected with "according as his work shall be." Now read 1 Corinthians 3:13 - each one's work will become clear; for the Day will declare it, because it will be revealed by fire; and the fire will test each one's work, of what sort it is. 14 If anyone's work which he has built on it endures, he will receive a reward. 15 If anyone's work is burned, he will suffer loss; (of reward) but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire. Eternal life/Salvation is a gift that we freely receive (Romans 6:23; Ephesians 2:8) and is not a reward that we work for and earn.
Descriptive of believers. BTW other translations read, "Blessed are those who wash their robes," (Revelation 22:14 - ASV; ESV; NASB; NIV; NCV; NRS etc..) which symbolizes those who have been forgiven of their sins through the blood of the Lamb (Romans 3:24-26). *Also see Revelation 7:14.
Those who by faith that have trusted in Christ as the ALL-sufficient means of their salvation have received Christ's imputed righteousness (Romans 4:4-6; Philippians 3:9). Unbelievers are all in the same boat with those in Revelation 22:15.
Descriptive of unbelievers.
Works follow as the fruit of salvation, but not the root of it.
It depends on your interpretation.
Descriptive of unbelievers.
Descriptive of believers.
*Notice "reward" (not eternal life) is connected with "according as his work shall be." Now read 1 Corinthians 3:13 - each one's work will become clear; for the Day will declare it, because it will be revealed by fire; and the fire will test each one's work, of what sort it is. 14 If anyone's work which he has built on it endures, he will receive a reward. 15 If anyone's work is burned, he will suffer loss; (of reward) but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire. Eternal life/Salvation is a gift that we freely receive (Romans 6:23; Ephesians 2:8) and is not a reward that we work for and earn.
Descriptive of believers. BTW other translations read, "Blessed are those who wash their robes," (Revelation 22:14 - ASV; ESV; NASB; NIV; NCV; NRS etc..) which symbolizes those who have been forgiven of their sins through the blood of the Lamb (Romans 3:24-26). *Also see Revelation 7:14.
Those who by faith that have trusted in Christ as the ALL-sufficient means of their salvation have received Christ's imputed righteousness (Romans 4:4-6; Philippians 3:9). Unbelievers are all in the same boat with those in Revelation 22:15.
Descriptive of unbelievers.
J
Yeah for if you break one commandment of the law you break all,which of course is impossible for a person whom has accepted Jesus as Saviour and Lord and his works for just as Paul explained "you can't keep both".
You can't keep the law for to do so would be to not accept Jesus,and like wise once you accept Jesus you cannot keep the law for the law is no longer yours to keep for Jesus fulfilled the law and through accepting you accept a "new covenant" a "greater covenant" than the law.
You can't keep the law for to do so would be to not accept Jesus,and like wise once you accept Jesus you cannot keep the law for the law is no longer yours to keep for Jesus fulfilled the law and through accepting you accept a "new covenant" a "greater covenant" than the law.
J
It's kind of like that old phrase "you can't have your cake and eat it too" or a more "modern version","you can't have an old account unpaid and expect to open a new one" seeing as noone but Jesus could be found to "pay for" our "old accounts" it stands to reason that an old account wouldn't co exist with a new one,now it is possible to "review an old debt" once it's been paid but you cannot pay for a debt "already paid for" lest there be deception and foolishness abound.
7
so basically Jesus was in disagreement with His Father?
please see my post 143
what Jesus commanded is the fullfillment of what we commonly refer to as the 10 commandments
very seriously, God has not changed and Jesus said the law is not going to pass away until everything passes away
17 “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18 For truly, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law until all is accomplished. 19 Therefore whoever relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever does them and teaches them will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20 For I tell you, unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven. Matthew 5
the fullfillment of the law was required by God and that fullfillment meant completeness...ie. perfect obedience
and yet Jesus says that VERY SAME LAW is fulfilled by US through the love of God in our hearts (cause God knows we basically do not have this love without the Holy Spirit)
what Jesus commanded is simply fulfilled by God's love...again see my post 143...I'm not trying to teach here; I am trying to logically follow the scripture. if it does not make sense, then we are missing something
all of this debating about righteousness, the law, the commandments; it is ALL smoke and mirrors
Jesus is not saying something difficult what He says AGREES with OT law (and obviously I am not discussing all the ordinances so please don't go there.) I am pointing to what we call the 10 commandments and that was what Jesus was pointing to when He spoke of love
obedience is not what some like to call 'works'
obedience is a part of the gospel. there would be no gospel if Jesus had not been obedient and if we think that as believers we do not need to follow that same obedience, then stop talking about God's will for your life because you are rejecting it
see Moses with the commandments written by the finger of God, standing on a smoking mountain with his face changed and shining from being in the presence of God and then look at Jesus pointing BACK to this very scene and saying you CAN'T fullfill these laws. I have fulfilled them FOR you
and the key to accepting this righteousness and living in it, is acknowledging the commandments of Christ as the fulfillment of the stone carved commandments through the Holy Spirit indwelling us and as we grow in our relationship, multiplying the love of God in us so that the commandments are not a burden but the love LIVED OUT they were always meant to be
yet people keep on discussing broken commandments and if you break one you have broken all
NOBODY told you to keep the commandments as a 'picture' of holiiness as the Israelites had to live it out and even then, scripture tells us the blood of those animals sacrificed could never pardon sin
why do you keep arguing over the gnats when the camel is chewing its cud behind you?
it is SO OBVIOUS yet for some reason, it seems not many here are understanding it
please see my post 143
what Jesus commanded is the fullfillment of what we commonly refer to as the 10 commandments
very seriously, God has not changed and Jesus said the law is not going to pass away until everything passes away
17 “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18 For truly, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law until all is accomplished. 19 Therefore whoever relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever does them and teaches them will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20 For I tell you, unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven. Matthew 5
the fullfillment of the law was required by God and that fullfillment meant completeness...ie. perfect obedience
and yet Jesus says that VERY SAME LAW is fulfilled by US through the love of God in our hearts (cause God knows we basically do not have this love without the Holy Spirit)
what Jesus commanded is simply fulfilled by God's love...again see my post 143...I'm not trying to teach here; I am trying to logically follow the scripture. if it does not make sense, then we are missing something
all of this debating about righteousness, the law, the commandments; it is ALL smoke and mirrors
Jesus is not saying something difficult what He says AGREES with OT law (and obviously I am not discussing all the ordinances so please don't go there.) I am pointing to what we call the 10 commandments and that was what Jesus was pointing to when He spoke of love
obedience is not what some like to call 'works'
obedience is a part of the gospel. there would be no gospel if Jesus had not been obedient and if we think that as believers we do not need to follow that same obedience, then stop talking about God's will for your life because you are rejecting it
see Moses with the commandments written by the finger of God, standing on a smoking mountain with his face changed and shining from being in the presence of God and then look at Jesus pointing BACK to this very scene and saying you CAN'T fullfill these laws. I have fulfilled them FOR you
and the key to accepting this righteousness and living in it, is acknowledging the commandments of Christ as the fulfillment of the stone carved commandments through the Holy Spirit indwelling us and as we grow in our relationship, multiplying the love of God in us so that the commandments are not a burden but the love LIVED OUT they were always meant to be
yet people keep on discussing broken commandments and if you break one you have broken all
NOBODY told you to keep the commandments as a 'picture' of holiiness as the Israelites had to live it out and even then, scripture tells us the blood of those animals sacrificed could never pardon sin
why do you keep arguing over the gnats when the camel is chewing its cud behind you?
it is SO OBVIOUS yet for some reason, it seems not many here are understanding it
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