Pre Trib Rapture Moment 11: What will trigger the rapture?

Isdaniel · Nov 5, 2013

to Konroh

Based on thy staements below

And there are so many differences between 1 Thess 4, 1 Cor. 15 and John 14:3 and the 2nd coming.
Rapture has the saints meeting Christ in the air, being with Him always, being resurrected, going to the Father's house in heaven.

The 2nd coming has the Son of Man coming in the clouds and His feet touch the Mt. of Olives on earth (Zech. 14:4-5), the 2nd coming does have a gathering of the saints, but it does not have a resurrection, otherwise there would be no need for the judgment of the sheep and the goats (the nations) in Matt. 25. There would also be no possibility of the saints having children and farms and continuing on earth (Is. 65) if they are translated (resurrected).

Could you explain this when does it happen ,is at the rapture ?, Jesus second coming ? when ?
John 5

28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

There is no clouds etc

no angels , no meeting in the air , 2 ressurection etc

Graybeard · Nov 6, 2013

Luk 21:36 Watch therefore, and pray always that you may be counted worthy to escape all these things that will come to pass, and to stand before the Son of Man."

konroh · Nov 6, 2013

This speaks of a general resurrection, that Jesus will be the great Judge who has power over death and rewards and punishes with life and damnation. The picture of the Great White Throne Judgment in Rev. 20 seems to fit this.

konroh · Nov 6, 2013

Matt 22:30“For in the resurrection they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels in heaven.

This is probably for a whole different thread, but I take it from this verse that our glorified bodies will not be used for procreation. I'm not denying that Gen 6 seems to point to bad angels coming down from heaven to procreate, but I think the more likely explanation is demon-possessed men who were procreating. But those angels were punished (Jude).

I've never heard of the post-trib explanation that in our glorified bodies we will live like unglorified people (having children). This is a novel and in my opinion, unbiblical, idea.

As I have said, I see the differences between the passages that speak of Rapture and the 2nd Coming. One event we are to look forward to as "a blessed hope" with no prophecies or predictors coming before it. The 2nd Coming has all sorts of signs that predict its occurrence. To me, throwing all the passages together is a hodge-podge of in the air, on the earth, in the clouds, resurrection and judgment all rolled into one. It's like the Merovingian in the Matrix movies who says, "Where you see chance, I see cause and effect." Perhaps that quote is too arbitrary, but my point is, do we focus on similarities or differences?

Plainword, I can't tell if you're midtrib rapture (Rev. 7th trumpet) or post-trib Rapture. And the idea that air means breathe is excellently dealt with here: http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/77682-i-thessalonians-chapter-1-end.html#post1261411

Brother_Don · Nov 6, 2013

i don't believe in Pre-trib rapture, but even if i did, i don't think i would try and figure it out. Jesus couldn't even give us a day, or hour, that He would come, Jesus gave us signs to look for, that would let us know when His coming is near, just read the news papers or watch the news and we can see these things coming to pass. Even if we have a thousand more years waiting, it will only seem like the blink of an eye compared to eternity. Thank You Father, for sending Jesus to show us our way home.

tdrew777 · Nov 6, 2013

Jesus of Nazareth fulfilled many prophesies. Some people got a few prophecies right before they happened, and managed to be in the right place at the right time (especially around his birth). There is no record that anyone got the big picture right before it happened. Even after his resurrection, Jesus had to teach his own disciples all the things that had been written about him - and they were truly surprised. They did not see the big picture about the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world until after it had happened. Yet the prophesies were right there.

I know a few things before they happen. Jesus is coming back. When He comes, it will be well for those believers who are going about the everyday work the Lord intended for them and bad for those who got distracted in the waiting. At some point, people who despise God's presence are going to a place of eternal punishment, and a regenerated race from every tribe and tongue is going to place of eternal reward. Yet I have no eschatological system. Nor do I seek one. I am no better than John and Peter at working these things out.

konroh · Nov 6, 2013

There also seems to be some difficulty in understanding Matt 24:40“Then there will be two men in the field; one will be taken and one will be left. 41“Two women will be grinding at the mill; one will be taken and one will be left.

This is Jesus coming in judgment and those taken are taken in judgment, swept away like the people of Noah's day to their deaths. So those who are left are left with their physical bodies. They populate the millenial kingdom. Nowhere does it say that the ones who are left are then translated (given resurrection bodies). In fact, resurrection is not mentioned at all in the Olivet discourse (in spite of the fact that Jesus said, "23 But take ye heed : behold , I have foretold you all things"") Guess Jesus made a mistake there

Kidding of course!

I don't deny that Dan. 12:2 points to the resurrection of OT saints at the end of the tribulation, it just doesn't seem to have resurrection of NT saints--unless you throw in all the passages which, in my view, point to the pre-trib Rapture.

konroh · Nov 6, 2013

I agree Brother Don, that's why I don't predict the Rapture or the 2nd coming, even though the Rapture has no signs preceding it and the 2nd coming has many signs.

And there is no distraction in the waiting. How many times are we told to wait expectantly, to not be surprised by a thief in the night, to be prepared? Waiting expectantly doesn't mean sitting around, it means active participation. You have guests coming over to your house for dinner, do you just wait for them or do you clean house, prepare food, get dressed up and put on some good music?

MESEAEAGLE · Nov 6, 2013

nope no pretrib rapture

leo1 · Nov 6, 2013

konroh said:

ok I really hate to tell people this but it has to be said; anytime there is a reference to saving the elect from the trib or not have to endure the trib or anything along those lines?...this means they will be dead! sorry but the truth hurts. to true believers we realize that death is but a short nap and we will awaken to see our precious Lord smiling at us. in death there is no tribulation, no pain,no awareness of passage of time, nothing til we wake up. surely this information will open the flood gates but i'm weary of those few passages fueling the rapture retards theories. Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice.

Graybeard · Nov 6, 2013

Has anyone noticed how the non-pre-trib believers enjoy and pride themselves with name slinging those that believe in pre-trib.....retards, false prophets, Satan's kids, blind people, liars, sinners, fools and the list goes on.
do they not know that,whether they like it or not, are brothers and sisters of those that believe in pre-trib?....do they really think our Lord is happy with that behavior?........just a reminder.

ChosenbyHim · Nov 6, 2013

MESEAEAGLE said:

There will be a Pre-Trib. Rapture. Study the word of God.

When the temple is in Jerusalem, the church cannot be here.

leo1 · Nov 6, 2013

Graybeard said:

you certainly are entitled to your opinion however if something is not done they will poison an entire generation with this ridiculous theory...I yield the floor to graybeard, let us see your way of awakening the fools. BTW my Lord is happy that I am doing my job to the best of my ability...but if that harms your delicate sensibilities...I'm out..ya'll are on your own,I will not repeatedly beat my head against a wall of doubt, especially if I am not wanted nor appreciated. Take it up with Christ when you see him.

PlainWord · Nov 6, 2013

Graybeard said:

Escape and snatched off the planet and transported to heaven are two very different concepts, wouldn't you agree? Noah escaped the Flood in an ark. Rahab escaped the Fall of Jericho by hanging a cord out her window. The Israelite's escaped the passover by painting their doorways with sacrificed blood; they later escaped Egypt by fleeing and God parted the Red Sea. Lot escaped the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah by fleeing the city. All escaped by obedience and divine protection. All were preserved right here on earth!!!

So, where does the idea of being snatched off the planet and taken to heaven come from? Just because the Lord comes "on a cloud" and those who are alive and remaining meet him in the "air" (breathe or life), doesn't meet the Lord returns to heaven after this event. That last part, "the Lord returning to heaven with us" is NOT TAUGHT ANYWHERE!!! NOT ONE VERSE TEACHES THIS OR SAYS THIS. We are taught that He comes with an army to do battle at Armageddon. He is seen on the Mount of Olives with the 144K.

PlainWord · Nov 6, 2013

I agree the ELECT who return with Christ or are the remnant translated and remaining with Christ will not be having babies. This group of priests and rulers with Jesus probably won't have time or desire to have children or may even be prohibited from having children as you point out in Mat 22. I am speaking about those on earth who the Lord did not slay when He returned, those who will be ruled and taught during the Millennium. They will be in immortal bodies (I'm pretty sure) but will still have mortal souls. Ezek 44:22 indicates that there will still be marriage during the millennium. To be honest, I have not studied the millennial period Ezek 40-48 anywhere near as much as I have Revelation.

PlainWord · Nov 6, 2013

I am just as Jesus teaches, He returns AFTER the Tribulation of those days, Mat 29-31. God pours out His Bowls of Wrath, Bowls 1-6 immediately before the Lord return. The Lord then returns at the 7th trumpet, 7th Bowl. When the Lord returns He is with His army from heaven and his ELECT, the 144K. The Lord slays those at Armageddon, those in Satan's army including many rulers and kings. The sword from his mouth (or spoken Word of Truth) will dissolve peoples eyes in their sockets.

I checked out the post you sent me too. A see a few errors there. I guess it was Elin writing that God brings with Jesus all Saints in heaven. WRONG!!! That isn't what 1 Thes 4:14 says. I don't understand why people can't just read the Word of God without putting their own spin on it. Let's look at these two verses.

1 Thes 4:13-14:

13 But I would not have you to be ignorant , brethren, concerning them which are asleep , that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.

14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again , even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

In Verse 13 Paul is saying that we should not sorrow for those asleep in heaven as others (who are not saved) sorrow. Why? Because they have the Blessed Hope he writes about. They are saved. They made it.

In Verse 14 Paul is saying is that when God returns, He (GOD) will bring with HIM those who are sleeping in Jesus (the saved in heaven). How do we gain salvation? Through Jesus. This verse has absolutely NOTHING to do with Jesus' Second Coming. When does God return? After the Millennium to establish the new heaven and new earth. Rev 21:1-4 shows us this.

So many people get confused by this thinking it is talking about Jesus' return when it isn't; it is 1,000 years later. Rev 20:5 is crystal clear!!!!

5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished.

Jesus is NOT bringing everyone in heaven back with HIM!!!! How can anyone teach this???? I know they do but it is so wrong. This thinking or teaching completely contradicts Rev 20:4-6.

Now let's look at 1 Thes 4:15:

15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

Prevent or Precede as the NKJV has it doesn't matter. All this is saying is that we who are alive and remaining (from the Tribulation) will not come to the Lord before those which are asleep. Why? Because they are already in heaven. The Lord is with them in heaven until He returns. This verse is so obvious that it really shouldn't need saying. If you die, you are immediately with the Lord so of course you will be with Him before those who are still alive on earth.

PlainWord · Nov 6, 2013

I want to clear up another common misconception a lot of people seem to have about the BLESSED HOPE that Paul writes about. It isn't to escape the Great Tribulation. It is for salvation!! The blessed hope is for Salvation. If it was to escape tribulation, then it would only apply to those on earth when the Tribulation started so that would mean that we would have 2,000 years+ of those who died without the Blessed Hope. I know Titus 2:13 says, "Blessed Hope and Glorious Appearing."

There are two ways to be saved, DIE IN CHRIST and survive until the end when Christ returns. Paul is not talking about an escape of tribulation for he teaches we will endure tribulation. If you understand that Christ comes back once AFTER the tribulation then Paul's message is consistent.

PlainWord · Nov 6, 2013

Graybeard said:

We shouldn't resort to name calling, I agree with that. We should be respectful towards other Christians at all times. However, we should not be respectful to false teaching or opinions. We should defend the Word of God. False doctrines should be attacked. They are harmful and wicked before God. If God teaches that His son will return AFTER the Tribulation (which is what He teaches) and man contradicts this truth and invents a whole additional return (that GOD did not teach) this teaching has to be attacked by the defenders of truth.

I try not to make it personal. But I understand how those who believe in Satan's lie will take it personally. Nobody wants to be told that their beliefs are wrong, especially their spiritual beliefs. I get that but there is no way to educate those who believe in false doctrine without pointing out the doctrine is false. But it should be done in a respectful manner that does not degrade the person.

There is a reason why we are told the correct order of the Lord's return verses the appearance of the Man of Sin. Not getting this right will have life or death, eternal and physical, for countless millions when the time comes. This difference of opinion isn't irrelevant as I've heard many say, "When the Lord comes, He comes and I will be ready." You won't be ready if you think the Lord comes first when really it is Satan who comes first proclaiming to be Jesus. Satan will be so convincing in his role of Jesus that he will deceive millions upon millions of Christians.

Christians think that they will be able to tell the difference between Satan and Jesus. I'm saying, NO YOU WON'T. The only way to know which is Satan and which is Jesus is knowing the correct order of their comings. Ignore the first "CHRIST" follow the SECOND CHRIST, for the SECOND CHRIST to come will be our LORD and SAVIOR.

Isdaniel · Nov 6, 2013

ChosenbyHim said:

Where the bible say that there will be a temple in Jerusalem in this time onward

Isdaniel · Nov 6, 2013

One question for pre tribulation people

What lesson is there to be learnt from the below verses as regard for Christians today and the God promised protection for all those that put there trust in Him

Exodus 8

King James Version (KJV)

[SUP]20 [/SUP]And the Lord said unto Moses, Rise up early in the morning, and stand before Pharaoh; lo, he cometh forth to the water; and say unto him, Thus saith the Lord, Let my people go, that they may serve me.
[SUP]21 [/SUP]Else, if thou wilt not let my people go, behold, I will send swarms of flies upon thee, and upon thy servants, and upon thy people, and into thy houses: and the houses of the Egyptians shall be full of swarms of flies, and also the ground whereon they are.
[SUP]22 [/SUP]And I will sever in that day the land of Goshen, in which my people dwell, that no swarms of flies shall be there; to the end thou mayest know that I am the Lord in the midst of the earth.

[SUP]23 [/SUP]And I will put a division between my people and thy people: to morrow shall this sign be.

[SUP]24 [/SUP]And the Lord did so; and there came a grievous swarm of flies into the house of Pharaoh, and into his servants' houses, and into all the land of Egypt: the land was corrupted by reason of the swarm of flies.

Exodus 9

King James Version (KJV)

9 Then the Lord said unto Moses, Go in unto Pharaoh, and tell him, Thus saith the Lord God of the Hebrews, Let my people go, that they may serve me.
[SUP]2 [/SUP]For if thou refuse to let them go, and wilt hold them still,
[SUP]3 [/SUP]Behold, the hand of the Lord is upon thy cattle which is in the field, upon the horses, upon the asses, upon the camels, upon the oxen, and upon the sheep: there shall be a very grievous murrain.
[SUP]4 [/SUP]And the Lord shall sever between the cattle of Israel and the cattle of Egypt: and there shall nothing die of all that is the children's of Israel.

Psalms 91

[SUP]9 [/SUP]Because thou hast made the Lord, which is my refuge, even the most High, thy habitation;
[SUP]10 [/SUP]There shall no evil befall thee, neither shall any plague come nigh thy dwelling.

Pre Trib Rapture Moment 11: What will trigger the rapture?

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