Regeneration in Christ, Titus 3:3-7

[Skinski7]

Let me repeat Skinski

When I followed your teaching in my youth I was consumed by sin, I was completely its slave, once I followed the biblical teaching of Grace, sin lessened in my life from where I was under your kind of teaching. So I know which teaching produces the holier life

But note, I am far from perfect, I have many faults, for I do not claim, 24/7 365 days a year to perfectly follow after the Holy Spirit, and when we lapse and do not follow after the Spirit we sin. That includes you as well as me

If you believe you live a holier life than me, and you sin less than me, please be specific as to the sins you believe I commit that you do not commit, asd what you do that means you live a holier life than me

Thanks.
If you cannot be specific you do not know which one of us sins the most(or least) unless you claim to have the gift of discernment and see each time I commit sin in my daily life
Of course if you did have that gift, you could plainly tell me specifically where I am commiting more sin in my flesh than you are in yours

How you choose to live your life is not the issue to me. I am looking at the statements you make and the doctrines you believe in. I clearly see you believe in doctrines which negate heart purity and negate being truly set free from sin. Also I don't necessarily respond to you in an attempt to change your mind (I already know you don't believe much of the Bible), I write to illustrate the fallacies you hold for the benefit of others who have not made up their minds yet.

Anyone who yields to sin is its slave. That is what both Jesus (Joh 8:34) and Paul (Rom 6:16) clearly stated. Jesus and Paul taught that one can be set free from this slavery by Jesus Christ (Joh 8:36, Rom 6:6).

I am not talking about "perfection" here. That is something that you keep bringing up. I am talking about a heart issue here. If you are speaking of perfection in the sense of never making a mistake in the sense of doing something unintentionally due to a lacking wisdom or understanding, I agree we are not perfect.

I am very specifically talking about the known sins of the flesh.

Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings.

All those things are the works of the flesh and when one walks after the Spirit all those things have ceased. The Bible clearly teaches it...

Gal 5:16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.

Paul is telling the Galatians what they need to do.

Paul taught this...

Rom 8:13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
Rom 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

There is no mixing of the too. You don't walk in the Spirit and then occasionally keep lapsing back into the flesh and then go back to the Spirit then "oops" back into the flesh. No! There is something wrong with that picture. The Bible doesn't present a third option of doing both, we either walk after the Spirit or we walk after the flesh.

We have either escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust or we have not escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust. We are either a slave to sin or we are a slave to righteousness. You cannot be both. Those who persist in a state where they "think" they are both are actually double-minded and WHOLLY DEFILED.

There is no salvation whilst in sin. Salvation is literally being set free from sin as well as being set free from the condemnation wrought by past rebellion.

Nowhere in the Bible does it say "mostly set free" or "gradually set free." No you are either free or you are not. You have either been saved or you have not.

Now many people believe in this forensic salvation plan and thus have a FALSE ASSURANCE that they are saved when in reality they are still in bondage to sin and are thus the children of wrath.

Satan is a master theologian who has been able to perpetuate a system of error which supports this false assurance. The Bible is full of warnings about error and the wolves who preach it. These wolves are so deceptive because they appear as sheep and it takes a lot of discernment to identify them.

 

[mark54]

How you choose to live your life is not the issue to me. I am looking at the statements you make and the doctrines you believe in. I clearly see you believe in doctrines which negate heart purity and negate being truly set free from sin. Also I don't necessarily respond to you in an attempt to change your mind (I already know you don't believe much of the Bible), I write to illustrate the fallacies you hold for the benefit of others who have not made up their minds yet.

Anyone who yields to sin is its slave. That is what both Jesus (Joh 8:34) and Paul (Rom 6:16) clearly stated. Jesus and Paul taught that one can be set free from this slavery by Jesus Christ (Joh 8:36, Rom 6:6).

I am not talking about "perfection" here. That is something that you keep bringing up. I am talking about a heart issue here. If you are speaking of perfection in the sense of never making a mistake in the sense of doing something unintentionally due to a lacking wisdom or understanding, I agree we are not perfect.

I am very specifically talking about the known sins of the flesh.

Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings.

All those things are the works of the flesh and when one walks after the Spirit all those things have ceased. The Bible clearly teaches it...

Gal 5:16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.

Paul is telling the Galatians what they need to do.

Paul taught this...

Rom 8:13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
Rom 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

There is no mixing of the too. You don't walk in the Spirit and then occasionally keep lapsing back into the flesh and then go back to the Spirit then "oops" back into the flesh. No! There is something wrong with that picture. The Bible doesn't present a third option of doing both, we either walk after the Spirit or we walk after the flesh.

We have either escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust or we have not escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust. We are either a slave to sin or we are a slave to righteousness. You cannot be both. Those who persist in a state where they "think" they are both are actually double-minded and WHOLLY DEFILED.

There is no salvation whilst in sin. Salvation is literally being set free from sin as well as being set free from the condemnation wrought by past rebellion.

Nowhere in the Bible does it say "mostly set free" or "gradually set free." No you are either free or you are not. You have either been saved or you have not.

Now many people believe in this forensic salvation plan and thus have a FALSE ASSURANCE that they are saved when in reality they are still in bondage to sin and are thus the children of wrath.

Satan is a master theologian who has been able to perpetuate a system of error which supports this false assurance. The Bible is full of warnings about error and the wolves who preach it. These wolves are so deceptive because they appear as sheep and it takes a lot of discernment to identify them.

As I have just written a long response to you on another thread, I'll skip reading the above, but I'll ask again.

How do you know that you live a more sinless life than anyone else who professes to be a Christian on this website?

Can you tell me the sins you believe I commit that you abstain from?

What do you do that makes you believe you live a holier life than any of the rest of us on CC?

If you cannot answer, it seems to me it must just be hot air, sorry, but it seems you just want to boast of your flesh before men(and women)

That is not folllowing after the Spirit Skinsky, or being sinless, far from it

 

[zone]

There you go denying heart purity. Always arguing in favour of ongoing rebellion to God. You simply do not believe one can be redeemed from all iniquity and made pure.

You also confuse temptation with sin. You also make no distinction between sins of presumption and sins of non-presumption.

You throw everything into the one bag and then use that to speak ill of heart purity.

You have ears but cannot hear. You have eyes but cannot see. There are many like you.

oh the irony is excruciating.

Acts 15
The Jerusalem Council
1But some men came down from Judea and were teaching the brothers, “Unless you are circumcised according to the custom of Moses, you cannot be saved.” 2And after Paul and Barnabas had no small dissension and debate with them, Paul and Barnabas and some of the others were appointed to go up to Jerusalem to the apostles and the elders about this question. 3So, being sent on their way by the church, they passed through both Phoenicia and Samaria, describing in detail the conversion of the Gentiles, and brought great joy to all the brothers.a 4When they came to Jerusalem, they were welcomed by the church and the apostles and the elders, and they declared all that God had done with them. 5But some believers who belonged to the party of the Pharisees rose up and said, “It is necessary to circumcise them and to order them to keep the law of Moses.”

6The apostles and the elders were gathered together to consider this matter. 7And after there had been much debate, Peter stood up and said to them, “Brothers, you know that in the early days God made a choice among you, that by my mouth the Gentiles should hear the word of the gospel and believe. 8And God, who knows the heart, bore witness to them, by giving them the Holy Spirit just as he did to us, 9and he made no distinction between us and them, having cleansed their hearts by faith

 

[mark54]

How you choose to live your life is not the issue to me. I am looking at the statements you make and the doctrines you believe in. I clearly see you believe in doctrines which negate heart purity and negate being truly set free from sin. Also I don't necessarily respond to you in an attempt to change your mind (I already know you don't believe much of the Bible), I write to illustrate the fallacies you hold for the benefit of others who have not made up their minds yet.

Anyone who yields to sin is its slave. That is what both Jesus (Joh 8:34) and Paul (Rom 6:16) clearly stated. Jesus and Paul taught that one can be set free from this slavery by Jesus Christ (Joh 8:36, Rom 6:6).

I am not talking about "perfection" here. That is something that you keep bringing up. I am talking about a heart issue here. If you are speaking of perfection in the sense of never making a mistake in the sense of doing something unintentionally due to a lacking wisdom or understanding, I agree we are not perfect.

I am very specifically talking about the known sins of the flesh.

Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings.

All those things are the works of the flesh and when one walks after the Spirit all those things have ceased. The Bible clearly teaches it...

Gal 5:16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.

Paul is telling the Galatians what they need to do.

Paul taught this...

Rom 8:13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
Rom 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

There is no mixing of the too. You don't walk in the Spirit and then occasionally keep lapsing back into the flesh and then go back to the Spirit then "oops" back into the flesh. No! There is something wrong with that picture. The Bible doesn't present a third option of doing both, we either walk after the Spirit or we walk after the flesh.

We have either escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust or we have not escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust. We are either a slave to sin or we are a slave to righteousness. You cannot be both. Those who persist in a state where they "think" they are both are actually double-minded and WHOLLY DEFILED.

There is no salvation whilst in sin. Salvation is literally being set free from sin as well as being set free from the condemnation wrought by past rebellion.

Nowhere in the Bible does it say "mostly set free" or "gradually set free." No you are either free or you are not. You have either been saved or you have not.

If while we seek to be justified in Christ it becomes evident that we ourselves are sinners, does this mean that Christ promotes sin? Absolutely not! I f I rebuild what I destroyed I prove that I am a lawbreaker
Gal2:16&17

That should cover most of what you have written





Now many people believe in this forensic salvation plan and thus have a FALSE ASSURANCE that they are saved when in reality they are still in bondage to sin and are thus the children of wrath.

Satan is a master theologian who has been able to perpetuate a system of error which supports this false assurance. The Bible is full of warnings about error and the wolves who preach it. These wolves are so deceptive because they appear as sheep and it takes a lot of discernment to identify them.

Answer inserted

 

[Skinski7]

Answer inserted

You didn't answer anything. You just avoided everything and posted two verses.

Gal 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
Gal 2:17 But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid.

Those verses are true. A man is not justified or made righteous by the works of the law. Keeping the law does not justify or make anyone righteous because the law can be kept for all manner of reasons which are completely disconnected from having a pure heart.

Justification is by the faith of Jesus Christ. What kind of faith was that? It was a faith that works by love (Gal 5:6), a faith that does not void the law but rather upholds the law in the heart (Rom 3:31). This is because love fulfills the law and when we love our neighbour as ourselves it is in our nature to kill, steal, lie or cheat. Thus righteousness is of faith and not the law.

Justification is found in Christ because it is in the Spirit of life in Jesus Christ that one manifests outward righteousness APART from the law. Which is exactly what Paul teaches right after verses 16 and 17.

Gal 2:19 For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God.
Gal 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
Gal 2:21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

Righteousness does not come by the law, it comes through a life in Christ.

Notice in verse 17 Paul implies "while we seek" painting a picture of an individual who is not justified yet, he says...

"while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners,"

Paul is not saying that you are justified while in the commission of rebellion. He is saying that while in the commission of rebellion one can be seeking to be justified by Christ. Yet God does not count anyone righteous unless they WALK IN THE STEPS OF FAITH.

Rom 4:11 And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also:
Rom 4:12 And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised.
Rom 4:13 For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.

The doctrine of the imputed righteousness of Christ denies the "walk."

You deny the walk because you deny heart purity.

This is why in every response you sidestep the issue of heart purity. You don't want to talk about it because you cannot talk about it because your doctrine does not teach it.

Salvation to you is purely a legal transaction that leaves you in slavery to sin.

You don't believe what the Bible teaches. You ignore the scriptures I show you. I don't ignore your scriptures, I demonstrate how you isolate and twist them out of context.

The harmony of the Bible is in favour of the manifested righteousness of a Christian. You and try to force the manifest wickedness of a Christian into the text.

I preach the doctrine according to godliness while you preach a doctrine that accords a cloak for ongoing wickedness.

 

[Skinski7]

oh the irony is excruciating.

Acts 15
The Jerusalem Council
1But some men came down from Judea and were teaching the brothers, “Unless you are circumcised according to the custom of Moses, you cannot be saved.” 2And after Paul and Barnabas had no small dissension and debate with them, Paul and Barnabas and some of the others were appointed to go up to Jerusalem to the apostles and the elders about this question. 3So, being sent on their way by the church, they passed through both Phoenicia and Samaria, describing in detail the conversion of the Gentiles, and brought great joy to all the brothers.a 4When they came to Jerusalem, they were welcomed by the church and the apostles and the elders, and they declared all that God had done with them. 5But some believers who belonged to the party of the Pharisees rose up and said, “It is necessary to circumcise them and to order them to keep the law of Moses.”

6The apostles and the elders were gathered together to consider this matter. 7And after there had been much debate, Peter stood up and said to them, “Brothers, you know that in the early days God made a choice among you, that by my mouth the Gentiles should hear the word of the gospel and believe. 8And God, who knows the heart, bore witness to them, by giving them the Holy Spirit just as he did to us, 9and he made no distinction between us and them, having cleansed their hearts by faith

Here you provide a passage which speaks against the "works of the law" ie, namely circumcision. Do I teach that you have to get circumcised? No. Yet you try and imply that I do. To teach that one must forsaking adultery, lying, cheating, stealing etc. is not the same as teaching that one must be subject to the law of Moses. Yet you have to merge the two together in order to argue in favour of your sin Gospel. In other words you have to formulate a strawman and tear that down because you cannot deal with the actual truth of the matter.

Yet you deny the cleansing of the heart in verse 9.

You proclaim that a Christian is carnal and sold under sin. You use 1Joh 1:8 as a proof text for the perpetual wickedness in a Christian.

Your doctrine is this forensic cloak for ongoing corruption. It's basically the same as what the Gnostics taught in the sense that the deeds done in the body are not a reflection of the true state of the soul.

Would you care to address the manifest fruit described in these verses...

1Jn 3:5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.
1Jn 3:6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
1Jn 3:7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
1Jn 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
1Jn 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
1Jn 3:10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

What do you do with that passage? Black it out with a marker? Or perhaps you just black out the word MANIFEST and twist the passage as being forensic in application.

I have seen people do that when they imply "we don't sin abstractly but practically we still do."

Logic is thrown out the window.

 

[zone]

in favour of your sin Gospel.

 

[mark54]

You didn't answer anything. You just avoided everything and posted two verses.

Gal 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
Gal 2:17 But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid.

Those verses are true. A man is not justified or made righteous by the works of the law. Keeping the law does not justify or make anyone righteous because the law can be kept for all manner of reasons which are completely disconnected from having a pure heart.

Justification is by the faith of Jesus Christ. What kind of faith was that? It was a faith that works by love (Gal 5:6), a faith that does not void the law but rather upholds the law in the heart (Rom 3:31). This is because love fulfills the law and when we love our neighbour as ourselves it is in our nature to kill, steal, lie or cheat. Thus righteousness is of faith and not the law.

Justification is found in Christ because it is in the Spirit of life in Jesus Christ that one manifests outward righteousness APART from the law. Which is exactly what Paul teaches right after verses 16 and 17.

Gal 2:19 For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God.
Gal 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
Gal 2:21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

Righteousness does not come by the law, it comes through a life in Christ.

Notice in verse 17 Paul implies "while we seek" painting a picture of an individual who is not justified yet, he says...

"while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners,"

Paul is not saying that you are justified while in the commission of rebellion. He is saying that while in the commission of rebellion one can be seeking to be justified by Christ. Yet God does not count anyone righteous unless they WALK IN THE STEPS OF FAITH.

Rom 4:11 And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also:
Rom 4:12 And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised.
Rom 4:13 For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.

The doctrine of the imputed righteousness of Christ denies the "walk."

You deny the walk because you deny heart purity.

This is why in every response you sidestep the issue of heart purity. You don't want to talk about it because you cannot talk about it because your doctrine does not teach it.

Salvation to you is purely a legal transaction that leaves you in slavery to sin.

You don't believe what the Bible teaches. You ignore the scriptures I show you. I don't ignore your scriptures, I demonstrate how you isolate and twist them out of context.

The harmony of the Bible is in favour of the manifested righteousness of a Christian. You and try to force the manifest wickedness of a Christian into the text.

I preach the doctrine according to godliness while you preach a doctrine that accords a cloak for ongoing wickedness.

If while we seek to be justified in Christ itbecomes evident that we ourselves are sinners, does this mean that Christpromotes sin? Absolutely not! I f I rebuild what I destroyed I prove that I ama lawbreaker
Gal2:16&17

Paul plainly states the truth of thematter, and as you have closed your eyes top the plain truth I am not going tospend hours trying to convince you out of your entrenched position. But like itor not Paul is speaking of a person who has come to Christ, yet is evidently asinner. That is what the plain text states, try and bend and manipulate it ifyou wish

A person comes to Christ and is IMMEDIATELY justified by faith in Christ. Ifthey died the next day they go to Heaven, that's true. I think some refer tothis as positionally justified (but don’t hold me to their interpretation ofexactly what that means) But Paul is speaking here of the new convert seekingto be justified from being a slave of sin when they came to Christ unto a slaveof righteousness, and they have to follow the teaching he has been entrusted withto see victory(Rom6:16&17)

For example.
The new convert, is a drunk, womaniser, smokes, swears like a trooper(extremeexample but it will suffice) The convert though instantly justified for Heaven,cannot remain in this state, they have to be seen to be JUSTIFIED BY FAITH INCHRIST IN RESPECT TO MOVING FR4OM WHERE THEY ARE TO BEING SLAVES OFRIGHTEOUSNESS.
But the convert is as yet without strength(Rom5:6) they are a babe in the faithand need to grow. They must stand and seek justification/deliverance by faithin Christ. So they stand on their one and only righteousness for Heaven, Jesus.The smoking stops, and the swearing, plus the affairs. Obviously the person isbeing changed by faith in Christ, but they have not yet stopped the drinking.However ,they go to your church during their time of seeking this justificationin Christ and you smell alcohol on their breath. You are horrified. They areraising their arms in the air, joining in the worship and praisingGod they are saved because Christ died for them. What you gonna think?
‘That man is promoting sin. Here he isworshipping with us and his breath smells of alcohol.’ Just an example Skinski.But much in that man’s life has already changed by faith in Christ. He hasstood solely on faith in his Saviour for his salvation and his victory in thefaith.
Paul confirms this is true in the nextverse
Absolutely not! If I rebuild what Idestroyed I prove that I am a lawbreaker. In other words, if instead ofstanding on faith in Christ that man tried to rid himself of all that sin to beacceptable to God(must be according to law, and is your belief) he would simplyfail and prove he was a lawbreaker

Now that is what Paulis telling us there. Try and twist it as much as you want, it’s the truth. Isee no point in going on with this, it would not matter what I wrote you wouldnever accept it.
Now obviously I don’tknow you Skinski, but I will tell you the mindset of the average person withyour beliefs.

Hell would have tofreeze over before they would help out at a soup kitchen for the homeless. Thethought would horrify them
They devoutly go to churchand look saintly.
They will give you theperfect scriptural response to every question asked.
They will invitelikeminded people in the church home for a meal, but normally that’s it.

They do not go out anddo any charitable works/street work, just preach
They believe theteaching alone is enough
No other works arerequired.
They will condemnothers who they believe do not have the pure doctrine they do

I’ll leave it there,you will know how many of those statements are accurate in your own life, Iobviously would not

 

[mark54]

Here you provide a passage which speaks against the "works of the law" ie, namely circumcision. Do I teach that you have to get circumcised? No. Yet you try and imply that I do. To teach that one must forsaking adultery, lying, cheating, stealing etc. is not the same as teaching that one must be subject to the law of Moses. Yet you have to merge the two together in order to argue in favour of your sin Gospel. In other words you have to formulate a strawman and tear that down because you cannot deal with the actual truth of the matter.

Again, observe, that the old nature of man, which remains inthe Christian is evil, and it cannot ever be anything else but evil, forwe are told in this chapter that "in me,"—that is, in myflesh—"there dwelleth no good thing." The old Adam-nature cannot beimproved; it cannot be made better; it is hopeless to attempt it. You may dowhat you please with it, you may educate it, you may instruct it, and thus youmay give it more instruments for rebellion, but you cannot make the rebel intothe friend, you cannot turn the darkness into light; it is an enemy to God, andan enemy to God it ever must be. On the contrary, the new life which God hasgiven us cannot sin. That is the meaning of a passage in John, where it issaid, "The child of God sinneth not; he cannot sin, because he is born ofGod." The old nature is evil only evil, and that continually, the newnature is wholly good; it knows nothing of sin, except to hate it. Its contactwith sin brings it pain and misery, and it cries out, "Woe is me that Idwell in Meshech, that I tabernacle in the tents of Kedar.

Charles Spurgeon concerning 1John3:9
.

Inserted response

 

[Skinski7]

Blue is Skinski
Black is Mark


If while we seek to be justified in Christ itbecomes evident that we ourselves are sinners, does this mean that Christpromotes sin? Absolutely not! I f I rebuild what I destroyed I prove that I ama lawbreaker
Gal2:16&17

Paul plainly states the truth of thematter, and as you have closed your eyes top the plain truth I am not going tospend hours trying to convince you out of your entrenched position. But like itor not Paul is speaking of a person who has come to Christ, yet is evidently asinner. That is what the plain text states, try and bend and manipulate it ifyou wish

A person comes to Christ and is IMMEDIATELY justified by faith in Christ. Ifthey died the next day they go to Heaven, that's true. I think some refer tothis as positionally justified (but don’t hold me to their interpretation ofexactly what that means) But Paul is speaking here of the new convert seekingto be justified from being a slave of sin when they came to Christ unto a slaveof righteousness, and they have to follow the teaching he has been entrusted withto see victory(Rom6:16&17) Your error is this POSITIONAL justification absent a FAITH THAT WORKS BY LOVE. Thus your doctrine makes an allowance, for example, of a child molester to be still engaged in that filthy sin and be redeemed at the same time.

You allude to Rom 6:16-17 but what do those verses actually say...

Rom 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
Rom 6:17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.

You are a slave to whom YOU obey. YOU! Who YOU yield to.

The deliverance from this slavery is through OBEYING FROM THE HEART THE DOCTRINE THAT WAS DELIVERED.

This doctrine is the doctrine according to Godliness.

1Ti 6:3 If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness;

You deny that because you teach that an individual can still be YIELDING TO SIN. This is why you have purely FORENSIC justification. Forensic justification was invented for the dilemma of continuing bondage. It is a LIE.

Paul wrote this...

Rom 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
Rom 6:5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
Rom 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
Rom 6:7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.

The SERVING OF SIN CEASES in repentance because you are a SLAVE TO WHOM YOU OBEY. If one is not obeying sin anymore than they are not its slave.

You deny this principle. You have the bondage ongoing and grace as a cloak for it. It is a myth. The Bible does not teach it.

The reason people obey sin is because they are ruled by the lusts of their flesh which draw them into it (Jam 1:14-15) but those who are Christ's HAVE CRUCIFIED those lusts (Gal 5:24).

You teach the opposite that those who are Christ's HAVE NOT crucified those lusts but are in the PROCESS OF GRADUALLY crucifying them OVER TIME. That is not what the Bible teaches.

You think the grace and mercy of God covers this process of gradual crucifixion. It doesn't. The grace and mercy of God is to bring you to repentance where the old man is crucified ONCE AND FOR ALL.

Rom 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

The old man IS CRUCIFIED not "BEING" crucified. Paul said "I AM CRUCIFIED WITH CHRIST", he did not say "I AM BEING CRUCIFIED WITH CHRIST."

Being crucified does not mean perfection as you keep implying either. It simply means that the REBELLION CEASES, the old man who lived like a beast according to fleshly passions has been put to death in repentance. God then raises us up to NEWNESS OF LIFE where ALL THINGS become new. It is in this state that we are teachable because we are willing to yield. We thus grow in the grace and knowledge of Jesus Christ as we add to our faith.

Your doctrine denies all this. It denies heart purity. There is no crucifixion of the flesh. The old man is not crucified once and for all. There is no cessation of rebellion. The reason you cannot see it is because your mind has been corrupted by the strongholds of Satan which are firmly entrenched because you have listened to false teachers for so long. It is inconceivable to you that the church system could be in error.

Look at the responses to my posts. People don't address the fundamental issues I raise. WHY?

People create strawman positions and attribute them to me and than attack those positions. WHY?

People call me names, accuse me of being self-righteous, saving myself, being ignorance etc. Yet where is the substance in the responses? There is none because the doctrine of Christ is SIMPLE. It is a doctrine according to godliness which results in true heart purity.


For example.
The new convert, is a drunk, womaniser, smokes, swears like a trooper(extremeexample but it will suffice) The convert though instantly justified for Heaven,cannot remain in this state, they have to be seen to be JUSTIFIED BY FAITH INCHRIST IN RESPECT TO MOVING FR4OM WHERE THEY ARE TO BEING SLAVES OFRIGHTEOUSNESS.You have it all in process. This the modern chruch system will teach that the sin never has to stop. They cannot say any sin has to stop because the moment they do they deny their doctrine. Thus you have a religion which has a form of godliness which EXCUSES ONGOING SIN. It is an abomination to God.
But the convert is as yet without strength(Rom5:6) they are a babe in the faithand need to grow. Yes need to grow but NOT REBEL LESS AND LESS. You teach that the "babe" is still a "rebel." No. The Prodigal Son was not a rebel when he left the pig pen. Jesus taught that parable. Who are you going to believe? Jesus or one of these celebrity preachers? They must stand and seek justification/deliverance by faithin Christ. So they stand on their one and only righteousness for Heaven, Jesus.The smoking stops, and the swearing, plus the affairs. Obviously the person isbeing changed by faith in Christ, but they have not yet stopped the drinking.However ,they go to your church during their time of seeking this justificationin Christ and you smell alcohol on their breath. You are horrified. They areraising their arms in the air, joining in the worship and praisingGod they are saved because Christ died for them. What you gonna think? You are promoting sin, just not directly. I know you folks won't say "you should sin," you'll never say that. You'll clearly teach that "you shouldn't." What you do do though is teach "YOU CAN SIN AND NOT SURELY DIE" because you have the "CLOAK OF CHRIST." It is a myth. There is no cloak. The unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom. That is what the Bible teaches, it lists SPECIFIC SINS THAT WILL DISQUALIFY YOU.
‘That man is promoting sin. Here he isworshipping with us and his breath smells of alcohol.’ Just an example Skinski.But much in that man’s life has already changed by faith in Christ. He hasstood solely on faith in his Saviour for his salvation and his victory in thefaith. By your logic a serial murderer can reduce his killing to 2 or 3 a year down from 10 or 10 and he is a "changed man in Christ." Think about it, that is what you teach. Is it any wonder the church system is full of sin? The gospel preached is Satan's gospel for it makes an allowance for ongoing rebellion.
Paul confirms this is true in the nextverse
Absolutely not! If I rebuild what Idestroyed I prove that I am a lawbreaker. In other words, if instead ofstanding on faith in Christ that man tried to rid himself of all that sin to beacceptable to God(must be according to law, and is your belief) he would simplyfail and prove he was a lawbreaker Paul is talking about going back to the law to seek justification. He is not saying anything about grace being a cloak for ongoing rebellion. Come on, READ IT PLAINLY. There were Judaisers going to the Galatians who were trying to convince them that they had to obey the law of Moses and be circumcised. This is what Paul is speaking against. We are justified BY FAITH. What kind of faith? A faith that works by love. Read this passage...

Gal 5:4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.
Gal 5:5 For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith.
Gal 5:6 For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.

Do you really believe that a faith that works by love gets drunk and fornicates? Come on. Read the whole letter of Galations in context, don't rip little snippets out and try to imply your own meaning to them.




Now that is what Paulis telling us there. Try and twist it as much as you want, it’s the truth. Isee no point in going on with this, it would not matter what I wrote you wouldnever accept it.
Now obviously I don’tknow you Skinski, but I will tell you the mindset of the average person withyour beliefs.

Hell would have tofreeze over before they would help out at a soup kitchen for the homeless. Thethought would horrify them
They devoutly go to churchand look saintly.
They will give you theperfect scriptural response to every question asked.
They will invitelikeminded people in the church home for a meal, but normally that’s it. This is all a strawman. I am not talking about legalist perfection. I am simply talking about yielding to God from the heart. You don't yield to God from the heart and then sit down and watch porno or steal from your neighbour.

We walk by faith with good conscience. Read Romans 14. It is not legalism, that is a strawman you keep creating. I don't celebrate Christmas for example because I see it as pagan in origin and it does not sit comfortably with me yet I don't condemn someone for celebrating it, for whether one celebrates it or not is not the real issue, a faith that works by love is the issue. We have liberty in Christ to follow our own conscience (in that we are led by the Spirit) but that is not a liberty to walk carnally yielding to the flesh.

Gal 5:13 For, brethren, ye have been called unto liberty; only use not liberty for an occasion to the flesh, but by love serve one another.

We are to walk in love. If we walk in love then God reckons us righteous by our faith. Everything else is added upon that as we grow in the grace and knowledge of Christ.

They do not go out anddo any charitable works/street work, just preach
They believe theteaching alone is enough
No other works arerequired.
They will condemnothers who they believe do not have the pure doctrine they do A tree is known by its fruit. I don't condemn anyone, I simply see the tragedy of this false gospel and I know where it originated and I contend earnestly against it. Online and where I live.

I’ll leave it there,you will know how many of those statements are accurate in your own life, Iobviously would not

 

[mark54]

Blue is Skinski
Black is Mark


If while we seek to be justified in Christ itbecomes evident that we ourselves are sinners, does this mean that Christpromotes sin? Absolutely not! I f I rebuild what I destroyed I prove that I ama lawbreaker
Gal2:16&17

Paul plainly states the truth of thematter, and as you have closed your eyes top the plain truth I am not going tospend hours trying to convince you out of your entrenched position. But like itor not Paul is speaking of a person who has come to Christ, yet is evidently asinner. That is what the plain text states, try and bend and manipulate it ifyou wish

A person comes to Christ and is IMMEDIATELY justified by faith in Christ. Ifthey died the next day they go to Heaven, that's true. I think some refer tothis as positionally justified (but don’t hold me to their interpretation ofexactly what that means) But Paul is speaking here of the new convert seekingto be justified from being a slave of sin when they came to Christ unto a slaveof righteousness, and they have to follow the teaching he has been entrusted withto see victory(Rom6:16&17) Your error is this POSITIONAL justification absent a FAITH THAT WORKS BY LOVE. Thus your doctrine makes an allowance, for example, of a child molester to be still engaged in that filthy sin and be redeemed at the same time.

You allude to Rom 6:16-17 but what do those verses actually say...

Rom 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
Rom 6:17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.

I've been at this too long with you today to go over all that lot!

You can deny what is palinly written all you wish Skinski, but in the real world what I told you is the truth. When you became a Christian you did not instantly perform perfect, but that is just about what you now preach. It simply becomes a theology of the head, nothing more. You ream off literal scripture without any true understanding of how that Gospel is worked out in an individuals life.
Yep Rom6:16&17 is correct, but as Gal2:16&17 shows it takes time. Paul plainly states that it is evident a person is a sinner while they seek justification in Christ, therefore they have come to Christ. I know it
blows your false theology away, but that plain text is too plain for you to do cartwheels with and deny what it states.

As for your example of a child molester(thought you would bring that up eventually)
Obviously when a person becomes a Christian the most urgent things that need dealing with I am sure the Spirit would prioritise, and I am sure that if a person came to Christ, even a homicidal maniac, for example, their tendancy to destroy others would be dealt with first.

You see the problem is, all you do is study the bible inside out. You have all that plain text in your head, but do not understanding the working out of the message. You are a clsssic example of the churches I spent my youth in.
They believed in the Baptism of the Holy Spirit for today, and therfore the gifts of the Spirit, but there was no power seen in that church, and I would be dubious if you claimed much in yours either.

Simply reciting the literal letter, lacks power, you need to understand the heart of what that letter contains
And I repeat, what I wrote on an other thread to you.
The very thing Paul's Gospel hangs on, you will not accept, and the kind of churches you go to, will not preach it, hence they are devoid of much power, even vthiough they accpet the Baptism of the Spirit for today. For there is great power in the truth Skinski, and any church that preaches it will see it

 

[crossnote]

Why do people like you always exclusively focus on isolating passages completely out of context in order to argue in favour of perpetual corruption or a perpetual state of unrighteousness? Are you really that blind?

Gen 4:4 And Abel, he also brought of the firstlings of his flock and of the fat thereof. And the LORD had respect unto Abel and to his offering:

Heb 11:4 By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh.

Luk 1:5 There was in the days of Herod, the king of Judaea, a certain priest named Zacharias, of the course of Abia: and his wife was of the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elisabeth.
Luk 1:6 And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless.

Eze 14:13 Son of man, when the land sinneth against me by trespassing grievously, then will I stretch out mine hand upon it, and will break the staff of the bread thereof, and will send famine upon it, and will cut off man and beast from it:
Eze 14:14 Though these three men, Noah, Daniel, and Job, were in it, they should deliver but their own souls by their righteousness, saith the Lord GOD.



Tit 2:14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

1Jn 3:7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.

Sorry Pontiff,
Just showing that initially NO ONE seeks after God. I guess I didn't see the 'no feeding bears'sign.

 

[SarahM777]

Sorry Pontiff,
Just showing that initially NO ONE seeks after God. I guess I didn't see the 'no feeding bears'sign.

I found it for you

 

[crossnote]

I found it for you

..bearly..