Render unto Cesar.........

[KennethC]

Missouri, does it leave you in misery?

No it is pretty peaceful where I live as I live on 20 acres of land.

 

[KennethC]

Ken, you asked about Moses. The Lord didn't put him to death. Moses was in Egypt. The Egyptians weren't under any obligation to put him to death or not. Furthermore, the Law of Moses wasn't given while Moses was in Egypt. Moses not being put to death fails as a valid argument in your favor.

David? You ask about David. Why didn't the Lord have him put to death? How do you know he committed adultery and murder? Guilty of both. Okay. There were no witnesses to his crime. The Lord who knows all things said there has to be two witnesses in order for the death penalty to be carried out. Don't you see that?

Paul? Who would put him to death? The Sanhedrin? For crying out loud. They are the ones who were wanting Paul to imprison and vote against Christians. They wanted Paul to succeed. Who would put him to death?

Stephen? Who would his murderers to death? The ones stoning him were the religious leaders. They thought he was blaspheming God, so they stoned him to death.

Everything Jesus said to the Jews applies to us? In what sense. He commanded them to wash feet. Are you a foot washer. It's okay if you are, but you miss the point. Did Jesus tell the Jews to pay the temple tax? Do you? Send it to Jerusalem. They need the money to build a new temple. Do you keep the Sabbath? Amazing. I am not a Jew. I don't follow the Law of Moses. Okay. I am a Christian.

I see the problem. You believe we are to obey the Old Law. I don't.
And you misapply terms such as love, mercy, forgiveness.

You are inconsistent. "Forgive the murderer. Release him from the DP. But not from life in prison." Absurd. But that's because you misapply forgiveness.

Concerning Genesis 9:6, question: What's the principle there? It's real simple. I mean no insult when I say that. Just copy and paste part of the verse. What's the principle in Genesis 9:6?

Now you are saying Genesis 9:6 does not apply to Moses even though it came before him, but we should apply it today.

See how that makes no sense ?????

You try to explain it away for Moses but you want to stick on others of today, and again God can put it into anybody's heart to put another to death. It does not matter if it is unbelieving Egyptians as the man of sin is used by God to destroy Babylon in Revelation 17:17.

Again trying to explain away in the case of David, as would not God and the Lord not be witnesses to the breaking of His own law ??? Yes but instead of putting David to death God took the life of there first born child for the punishment.

As for Saul(Paul) what about the other the other Apostles, just because the Sanhedrin wanted him to do it makes it no less murder.

Again the same as Paul, it makes it no less murder just because of who issues it out.

In what ever sense of what He said in the gospel books, and yes I have partook in the washing of others feet and no I do not miss the point of what it is for, and the taxes was not just in response to the temple tax it was taxes in general and yes I pay taxes.

Yes I do keep the Sabbath by the way the NT shows to observe it, because the NT standard is not against working on it to survive and support one's family.

I never said we have to obey the old law !!!

You are trying to twist my words and say things I never said, and I am done talking to you if you can not stop and refrain from doing so !!!

 

[Galahad]

Now you are saying Genesis 9:6 does not apply to Moses even though it came before him, but we should apply it today.

See how that makes no sense ?????

You try to explain it away for Moses but you want to stick on others of today, and again God can put it into anybody's heart to put another to death. It does not matter if it is unbelieving Egyptians as the man of sin is used by God to destroy Babylon in Revelation 17:17.

Again trying to explain away in the case of David, as would not God and the Lord not be witnesses to the breaking of His own law ??? Yes but instead of putting David to death God took the life of there first born child for the punishment.

As for Saul(Paul) what about the other the other Apostles, just because the Sanhedrin wanted him to do it makes it no less murder.

Again the same as Paul, it makes it no less murder just because of who issues it out.

In what ever sense of what He said in the gospel books, and yes I have partook in the washing of others feet and no I do not miss the point of what it is for, and the taxes was not just in response to the temple tax it was taxes in general and yes I pay taxes.

Yes I do keep the Sabbath by the way the NT shows to observe it, because the NT standard is not against working on it to survive and support one's family.

I never said we have to obey the old law !!!

You are trying to twist my words and say things I never said, and I am done talking to you if you can not stop and refrain from doing so !!!

Genesis 9:6 and Moses. Who would put Moses to death? It would have to have been the Egyptians. They were the government in charge over the Israelites. They were the law of the land at that time. Remember, I did not introduce Moses as an example of this discussion. I'm trying to show that we can't use the non DP application upon Moses as proof that the DP is wrong.

Just to be clear: Genesis 9:6 is not the Law of Moses. So I do not understand why you do not see the principle there as applicable today.

Concerning God being a witness against David. I know God knew. But God still said that there needs to be two witnesses testifying to the disobedience. He the one who created the standard of two witnesses. He did that. There were no witnesses against David and Bathsheba. Yes, the baby died. But David wasn't put to death. Why? No witnesses.

You might have a stronger argument if there were two witnesses against David and Bathsheba. If they would not have stoned David or Bathsheba, then there would be a case made in your favor. But without those two witnesses, David and Bathsheba live.

Ken, Saul of Tarsus was not murdering in the opinion of the Jewish leaders. How so? He was putting to death blasphemers. He was actually carrying out the command of God. You blaspheme, you get put to death. Saul of Tarsus believed the Jewish Christians were blasphemers, haters of God. So he sought to put them to death.

Stephen. Again. Who would put the Sanhedrin to death for stoning Stephen? Who? Rome could. If they had the death penalty for that. Jewish Christians wouldn't. It's not their place to put to death the Sanhedrin. Why would they. The Jewish Christians were under Roman authority.

Concerning the twisting of your words and us being under the Old Law or not. I will go back and pull out some of your statement as to why I was under the impression.

 

[AceMichaels]

Ace, I am. I am very sick. See it all started when I was born. I inherited mortality.

Just kidding Ace. I am. Ace in the hole.

What did I write that was so terrible. I responded to posts. Asked for clarity. For proof.

My sincerest apologies to you Ace. I will not hold you to proving that I insulted or belittled others. Okay.

Let's move forward.

I apologize to you.

I accept your apology. I apologize too! Its sometimes hard to distinguish stuff on this forum. And I am new to this. Oh, please refer to Ace as in cards or maybe guitar as in Ace Frehley! (Of KISS) anything but golf!!!! LOL

 

[phil112]

First, please allow me to apologize for not returning to a thread I posed a question on. Unfortunately, I have been busy with some things, and fortunately, I have the ability to be busy physically.
I have decided to start on another read thru of the word and I am just now in Genesis.

This doesn't actually make a lot of sense. In what way would a death penalty keep someone from heaven? I'm very curious to hear your reasoning behind this.

In this way: If a person is found guilty and given the death penalty, in rapid succession, that person may not have had enough time to reflect on the seriousness of his future and reach out for mercy from God.

My reasoning matches your reasoning, apparently. Personally, I cringed as I watched so many professing Christians rejoice years back when Saddam Hussein was hung to death. Rejoicing that a man is going to hell? Not my cup of tea. Not now. Not ever.

God gives man the right to rule himself on a societal level. That includes rules and penalties for breaking them. Now as some have quoted, the old testament law did indeed validate death for some offenses. But we are not under the law so those clearly don't apply.
However, let's read Genesis 9:6 "Whoso sheddeth man's blood, by man shall his blood be shed: for in the image of God made he man."
Be careful when you apply meaning to that. We aren't dealing with any form of law here, and we aren't dealing with any other crime besides murder. Murder of a man is deserving of death. Man is God's creation and no man has the right to take it without cause. I submit to you that only murder is deserving of the death penalty, but it is justifiable in God's sight under those circumstances.

I think that, after conviction, a man should have at least one year from then to the time of execution. That would give him sufficient time to reflect on his wrong and seek salvation.

Interesting to me how that some scriptures don't seem to register with me unless I am dealing with a particular topic. I have read this verse several times yet it never came to mind when I have discussed capital punishment.

 

[phil112]

Missouri, does it leave you in misery?

Only during football season and then mostly when his tigers play my Sooners.

I want to applaud some of you for catching this thread. I didn't read all of the replies, and now that I have read some I see some of you were already aware of where I was heading. Good catch!

 

[BarlyGurl]

First, please allow me to apologize for not returning to a thread I posed a question on. Unfortunately, I have been busy with some things, and fortunately, I have the ability to be busy physically.
I have decided to start on another read thru of the word and I am just now in Genesis.


In this way: If a person is found guilty and given the death penalty, in rapid succession, that person may not have had enough time to reflect on the seriousness of his future and reach out for mercy from God.



God gives man the right to rule himself on a societal level. That includes rules and penalties for breaking them. Now as some have quoted, the old testament law did indeed validate death for some offenses. But we are not under the law so those clearly don't apply.
However, let's read Genesis 9:6 "Whoso sheddeth man's blood, by man shall his blood be shed: for in the image of God made he man."
Be careful when you apply meaning to that. We aren't dealing with any form of law here, and we aren't dealing with any other crime besides murder. Murder of a man is deserving of death. Man is God's creation and no man has the right to take it without cause. I submit to you that only murder is deserving of the death penalty, but it is justifiable in God's sight under those circumstances.

I think that, after conviction, a man should have at least one year from then to the time of execution. That would give him sufficient time to reflect on his wrong and seek salvation.

Interesting to me how that some scriptures don't seem to register with me unless I am dealing with a particular topic. I have read this verse several times yet it never came to mind when I have discussed capital punishment.

Phil, I appreciate that you are taking the TIME and making PERSOANL EFFORT to reflect on the issue to resolve it for yourself that you can be of CLEAR CONSCIENCE before the Lord. This thread in and another... has cause me to RE-THINK the application and consequence of "personal conscience" vs. "God conscience"... thank you for the that too. I did not paste any scripture to my comments but did contend vigorously that Capital Punishment is sanctioned by God... and Numbers Chapter 35 is a very good concentrated overview of that same thing.