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James is talking about faith vs faith
I gather you are talking about faith with works vs faith without? Yes, he was, and what I'm hearing him say is that if a person doesn't have corresponding action/works, his faith won't work, nothing will happen, as in dead.
Paul is talking how we are saved.
I agree.
Paul said those who are saved will do works (even if they are works of the law)
This, I don't see that way. I really think most people are missing something here. Where is faith concerning obedience to the law? I believe, that's wisdom in action, not faith. The Jewish people follow the law and miss out on faith. Obedience to the law is as faith is to grace. They are not the same and like clay is with iron, they don't mix. Obedience to the voice of God can be something entirely different though. That could require faith depending on what it may entail. But to obey a command of 'thou shalt not...' does not take faith to do, it's more like Godly wisdom.
James is saying if one says he has faith but has zero works (including any work which is commanded by God) or fruits of real faith spoken of by Paul in eph 2. They that person is a liar. His faith is dead (has no life, thus has no salvation.
James is explaining how faith works, regardless of what it may be for.
I gather you are talking about faith with works vs faith without? Yes, he was, and what I'm hearing him say is that if a person doesn't have corresponding action/works, his faith won't work, nothing will happen, as in dead.
Paul is talking how we are saved.
I agree.
Paul said those who are saved will do works (even if they are works of the law)
This, I don't see that way. I really think most people are missing something here. Where is faith concerning obedience to the law? I believe, that's wisdom in action, not faith. The Jewish people follow the law and miss out on faith. Obedience to the law is as faith is to grace. They are not the same and like clay is with iron, they don't mix. Obedience to the voice of God can be something entirely different though. That could require faith depending on what it may entail. But to obey a command of 'thou shalt not...' does not take faith to do, it's more like Godly wisdom.
James is saying if one says he has faith but has zero works (including any work which is commanded by God) or fruits of real faith spoken of by Paul in eph 2. They that person is a liar. His faith is dead (has no life, thus has no salvation.
James is explaining how faith works, regardless of what it may be for.
Still it was faith MOVED BY A PROMISE. That is the Christian walk from first to last.[/QUOTE]
I think this is right, the initive is always taken by God first - in order to have faith we have to have something to base it upon. Basing our response or obedience on God's command or Law.
God's commandment our response or obedience to the promise.
It is a commandment with promise -
Eph 6:2 Honour thy father and mother; (which is the first commandment with promise(KJV)
I think this is right, the initive is always taken by God first - in order to have faith we have to have something to base it upon. Basing our response or obedience on God's command or Law.
God's commandment our response or obedience to the promise.
It is a commandment with promise -
Eph 6:2 Honour thy father and mother; (which is the first commandment with promise(KJV)
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Abraham was made just by what He did, and He was simply obeying God. Abraham could not boast before God because God was not not repaying a debt He owed to Abraham He was fulfilling a promise He had made to Him.
God did not own Abraham anything - No one has ever given to God first, as Romans 11:35 shows.
Ro 11:35 Or who hath first given to him, and it shall be recompensed unto him again?
Abraham was given the ability to offer His son. This is in keeping with the principle illustrated in Deut 8:18.
De 8:18 But thou shalt remember the LORD thy God: for it is he that giveth thee power to get wealth, that he may establish his covenant which he sware unto thy fathers, as it is this day.
All ability is given by God.
This is similar to Jesus telling Christians not to sin.
If we humble ourselves before God and try to obey then God's Grace teaches or empowers a person to obey God's command and to abstain from ungodliness or to abstain from sin, Titus 2:11-12.
Having been empowered to abstain from sin by God's grace, God then promises us blessings for obeying Him and not sinning.
Works of obedience obtain the promises of God. Just as the "works of the (Mosaic) Law" obtained the promise of forgiveness in the Old Covenant.
Ro 4:4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
Ro 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
Ro 11:6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
We are enabled to obey Gods commands which means that our obedience is "by Grace". God's Grace empowers Christians to obey God.
We do not possess the ability apart from His empowerment, Rm 11:6. If Christians possessed the ability to please God without God's grace empowering them then God would be repaying a debt He owed us. But the ability is the gift of God's grace.
Ro 11:35 Or who hath first given to him, and it shall be recompensed unto him again?
God did not own Abraham anything - No one has ever given to God first, as Romans 11:35 shows.
Ro 11:35 Or who hath first given to him, and it shall be recompensed unto him again?
Abraham was given the ability to offer His son. This is in keeping with the principle illustrated in Deut 8:18.
De 8:18 But thou shalt remember the LORD thy God: for it is he that giveth thee power to get wealth, that he may establish his covenant which he sware unto thy fathers, as it is this day.
All ability is given by God.
This is similar to Jesus telling Christians not to sin.
If we humble ourselves before God and try to obey then God's Grace teaches or empowers a person to obey God's command and to abstain from ungodliness or to abstain from sin, Titus 2:11-12.
Having been empowered to abstain from sin by God's grace, God then promises us blessings for obeying Him and not sinning.
Works of obedience obtain the promises of God. Just as the "works of the (Mosaic) Law" obtained the promise of forgiveness in the Old Covenant.
Ro 4:4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
Ro 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
Ro 11:6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
We are enabled to obey Gods commands which means that our obedience is "by Grace". God's Grace empowers Christians to obey God.
We do not possess the ability apart from His empowerment, Rm 11:6. If Christians possessed the ability to please God without God's grace empowering them then God would be repaying a debt He owed us. But the ability is the gift of God's grace.
Ro 11:35 Or who hath first given to him, and it shall be recompensed unto him again?
Romans 4:1 ¶ What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?
2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,
7 Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.
8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.
James 2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only
To get this straight in my own mind then, I am asking for input from others in this forum regarding my opinions, which are constantly changing, hopefully getting more scriptural.
It is said that Christians are justified (made just) or do the right thing (are righteous) in Gods eyes if they choose to believe or have faith, Rm 4:2 and 3.
Beyond the point of initial acceptance by God through faith they can then be further justified by doing what could be called "works" of faith as 1 Thess 1:3 phrases it.
Tit 3:7 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.
As it is referred to in Titus 3:7 we can be justified by faith initially and then be further justified by Grace. Once faith has given us access to the empowering ability of the grace of God. We can learn from the Grace of God to do "works of Faith" thereby "perfecting or completing" our faith. For by Grace we are saved through faith.
Abraham already had faith in James 2:21 when He was (further) justified by "works done in righteousness".
These can be called "works" of faith, suggesting that all the "Works" that God approves of are done as a result of having "faith". All "works" then must proceed from "faith".
So what happens is that a person is initially "justified" by faith then they can be made more "perfect or complete" through "works" done in faith.
Ro 4:16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace;....
Romans says that being right in God's eyes is of faith so that it can be by grace.
This is why I believe that the Grace of God is accessed through the conduit (so to speak) of faith. Once faith has given us access to the grace of God the grace of God can then teach us or enable us to perform additional works of faith. That is how our faith can be made more "perfect or more complete".
Col 4:12 Epaphras, who is one of you, a servant of Christ, saluteth you, always labouring fervently for you in prayers, that ye may stand perfect and complete in all the will of God.
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So I think that mankind is incapable of performing any "work" that is acceptable to God unless they have been empowered to perform such "works" by the Grace of God. Works performed with and through the empowering ability given by God's grace can and do "perfect" or make a persons faith "more complete".
Jas 2:22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
I say this because "grace" is God's empowering gift, John 1:12 and Titus 2:11-12.
Ro 11:6 And if by grace (God's empowerment), then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works (without God's empowerment), then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,
7 Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.
8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.
James 2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only
To get this straight in my own mind then, I am asking for input from others in this forum regarding my opinions, which are constantly changing, hopefully getting more scriptural.
It is said that Christians are justified (made just) or do the right thing (are righteous) in Gods eyes if they choose to believe or have faith, Rm 4:2 and 3.
Beyond the point of initial acceptance by God through faith they can then be further justified by doing what could be called "works" of faith as 1 Thess 1:3 phrases it.
Tit 3:7 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.
As it is referred to in Titus 3:7 we can be justified by faith initially and then be further justified by Grace. Once faith has given us access to the empowering ability of the grace of God. We can learn from the Grace of God to do "works of Faith" thereby "perfecting or completing" our faith. For by Grace we are saved through faith.
Abraham already had faith in James 2:21 when He was (further) justified by "works done in righteousness".
These can be called "works" of faith, suggesting that all the "Works" that God approves of are done as a result of having "faith". All "works" then must proceed from "faith".
So what happens is that a person is initially "justified" by faith then they can be made more "perfect or complete" through "works" done in faith.
Ro 4:16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace;....
Romans says that being right in God's eyes is of faith so that it can be by grace.
This is why I believe that the Grace of God is accessed through the conduit (so to speak) of faith. Once faith has given us access to the grace of God the grace of God can then teach us or enable us to perform additional works of faith. That is how our faith can be made more "perfect or more complete".
Col 4:12 Epaphras, who is one of you, a servant of Christ, saluteth you, always labouring fervently for you in prayers, that ye may stand perfect and complete in all the will of God.
==============================================
So I think that mankind is incapable of performing any "work" that is acceptable to God unless they have been empowered to perform such "works" by the Grace of God. Works performed with and through the empowering ability given by God's grace can and do "perfect" or make a persons faith "more complete".
Jas 2:22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
I say this because "grace" is God's empowering gift, John 1:12 and Titus 2:11-12.
Ro 11:6 And if by grace (God's empowerment), then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works (without God's empowerment), then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
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