Yes, RIGHTEOUSNESS comes through FAITH, but …

[newbirth]

Paul: only faith saves (Ro 1:5, 3:20, 21, 28; 4:2, 5; 5:6, 8, 11, 13, 14, 15, 16, 5:1, 8, 10;
Gal 2:16, 3:11; Eph 2:8-9)
James: nature of saving faith is accompanied by obedience, or it is not saving faith

And do you have difficulty with analogies?

My statement:
Faith alone saves,
but faith is never alone.

is no more folly than the statement:
Elin alone knit the sweater,
but Elin is never alone.

Or, are you having problems with just grammar?

sometimes I wonder why people do these things...look at the last line...she is describing faith that is alone...no works (obedience) in fact, it's spiritually dead..not true faith at all....but that is the same faith alone you want to tell me which saves....

Originally Posted by Elin

It's an analogy, not an application.

Yes, true saving faith is never alone (it always includes obedience).

But counterfeit faith, which has no works (obedience), is alone; in fact, it's spiritually dead, and is not true faith at all.

 

[Elin]

Paul: only faith saves (Ro 1:5, 3:20, 21, 28; 4:2, 5; 5:6, 8, 11, 13, 14, 15, 16, 5:1, 8, 10;
Gal 2:16, 3:11; Eph 2:8-9)
James: nature of saving faith--accompanied by obedience, or it is not saving faith

And do you have difficulty with analogies?

My statement:
Faith alone saves,
but faith is never alone.

is no more folly than the statement:
Elin alone knit the sweater,
but Elin is never alone.

sometimes I wonder why people do these things...look at the last line...she is describing faith that is alone...no works (obedience) in fact, it's spiritually dead..not true faith at all....but that is the same faith alone you want to tell me which saves....

So your problem is the grammar.

Maybe this will help:

Mary accompanies Elin, she is never alone.
But Elin alone knit the sweater.

Does that mean Elin Mary was not there when Elin knit the sweater?

 

[Elin]

Correction to above:

Does that mean Mary was not there when Elin alone knit the sweater?

Was Elin alone when Elin alone knit the sweater?

 

[newbirth]

So your problem is the grammar.

Maybe this will help:

Mary accompanies Elin, she is never alone.
But Elin alone knit the sweater.

Does that mean Elin Mary was not there when Elin knit the sweater?

my problem is with your shameless lying against scripture....this is what you wrote...

But counterfeit faith, which has no works (obedience), is alone; in fact, it's spiritually dead, and is not true faith at all.

your quote ...counterfeit faith is alone, it's spiritually dead and is not true faith at all...this is your description of faith that is alone..
then you make a 360 and say faith alone saves.....how in the world can a spiritually dead,counterfeit faith that is not even true faith save...????

Then you make another lying statement...

.but faith is never alone.

James ,who I believe says....faith without works is dead being alone....now that tells me faith can be alone...
now you have the gall to tell me I have a problem with grammar....
you and Mary can knit all the sweater you want...it does not change the scripture...faith without works is dead being alone

 

[Elin]

So your problem is the grammar.

Maybe this will help:

Mary accompanies Elin, she is never alone.
But Elin alone knit the sweater.

Does that mean Mary was not there when Elin alone knit the sweater?

Was Elin alone when Elin alone knit the sweater?

my problem is with your shameless lying against scripture....

It is "lying" to you because you do not understand the grammar of my analogy showing what Scripture teaches.

You do not see that "alone" is used two different ways,
one describes presence or relation to,
the other describes effectively active.

A thing can be present or related to, without being effectively active in, the matter.

Mary is present and related to Elin, but
Mary is not effectively active in the matter of Elin knitting the sweater.

Likewise, works are present and related to saving faith (faith is never alone),
but works are not effectively active in the matter of salvation/justification (by faith alone)
(Ro 1:5, 3:20, 21, 28; 4:2, 5; 5:6, 8, 11, 13, 14, 15, 16, 5:1, 8, 10; Gal 2:16, 3:11; Eph 2:8-9).

The situation more simply stated is:

Salvation is by faith alone.
But faith is never alone.

Or the analogy of it is:

Mary accompanies Elin, she is never alone.
But Elin alone knit the sweater.

 

[newbirth]

It is "lying" to you because you do not understand the grammar of my analogy showing what Scripture teaches.

You do not see that "alone" is used two different ways,
one describes presence or relation to,
the other describes effectively active.

A thing can be present or related to, without being effectively active in, the matter.

Mary is present and related to Elin, but
Mary is not effectively active in the matter of Elin knitting the sweater.

Likewise, works are present and related to saving faith (faith is never alone),
but works are not effectively active in the matter of salvation/justification (by faith alone)
(Ro 1:5, 3:20, 21, 28; 4:2, 5; 5:6, 8, 11, 13, 14, 15, 16, 5:1, 8, 10; Gal 2:16, 3:11; Eph 2:8-9).

The situation more simply stated is:

Salvation is by faith alone.
But faith is never alone.

Or the analogy of it is:

Mary accompanies Elin, she is never alone.
But Elin alone knit the sweater.

it does not matter my friend....salvation is by grace through faith ...so now you are digging a bigger pit....are we not saved by grace through faith????
and as I stated before James says faith can be alone....faith without works is dead being alone....you seem intent on making James a liar.....
have 2 question for you.....(1) can faith be alone (without works)
(2) are we saved by grace through faith?

 

[AtonedFor]

I have 2 questions for you.....
(1) can faith be alone (without works)
(2) are we saved by grace through faith?

I've not been able to follow you two,
butski IMO you are both missing the point:
it's all a matter of what is meant by having faith:

SAVING FAITH INCLUDES THE WORKS OF OBEDIENCE!

 

[seed_time_harvest]

Its just that saving faith means salvation and all that GOD needs to see is faith alone,but saving faith produces work that is seen by men.

 

[Elin]

It is "lying" to you because you do not understand the grammar of my analogy showing what Scripture teaches.

You do not see that "alone" is used two different ways,
one describes presence or relation to,
the other describes effectively active.

A thing can be present or related to, without being effectively active in, the matter.

Mary is present and related to Elin, but
Mary is not effectively active in the matter of Elin knitting the sweater.

Likewise, works are present and related to saving faith (faith is never alone),
but works are not effectively active in the matter of salvation/justification (by faith alone)
(Ro 1:5, 3:20, 21, 28; 4:2, 5; 5:6, 8, 11, 13, 14, 15, 16, 5:1, 8, 10; Gal 2:16, 3:11; Eph 2:8-9).

The situation more simply stated is:

Salvation is by faith alone.
But faith is never alone.

Or the analogy of it is:

Mary accompanies Elin, she is never alone.
But Elin alone knit the sweater.

It does not matter my friend....salvation is by grace through faith ...so now you are digging a bigger pit....are we not saved by grace through faith????
and as I stated before James says faith can be alone....faith without works is dead being alone....you seem intent on making James a liar.....
have 2 question for you.....(1) can faith be alone (without works)
(2) are we saved by grace through faith?

(1) Faith can be alone in its effective action (as Elin can be alone in knitting the sweater).
But faith is never alone because works (obedience) are always present and related to it
(as Mary is always present and related to Elin).

(2) Of course we are saved by grace through faith (Eph 2:8-9).
Do you know of anyone who says we are not?

 

[AtonedFor]

Its just that saving faith means salvation and all that GOD needs to see is faith alone,
but saving faith produces work that is seen by men.

Yes, I know what you mean ... God is blind.
You are sure to love the Christmas Special thread coming soon!

 

[newbirth]

Its just that saving faith means salvation and all that GOD needs to see is faith alone,but saving faith produces work that is seen by men.

.....garbage.....always support your opinions with scripture.....many versions to choose from...you can even write your own...but don't spew your opinion with God in all caps and think anyone will buy it...ooops someone did......

 

[newbirth]

(1) Faith can be alone in its effective action (as Elin can be alone in knitting the sweater).
But faith is never alone because works (obedience) are always present and related to it
(as Mary is always present and related to Elin).

(2) Of course we are saved by grace through faith (Eph 2:8-9).
Do you know of anyone who says we are not?

that is speaking with a forked tongue...in other words lying...you are resisting scripture....James says faith without works is dead being alone....you are saying ....

But faith is never alone because works (obedience) are always present

you admit faith can be alone....then you make a 360 and say faith is never alone....

you admit ...we are saved by grace through faith....but you teach faith alone saves.....is your mind reprobate ??? do you forget as you type???I think you may have knit one to many sweater....

 

[Elin]

that is speaking with a forked tongue...in other words lying...you are resisting scripture....James says faith without works is dead being alone....you are saying .... you admit faith can be alone....then you make a 360 and say faith is never alone....

you admit ...we are saved by grace through faith....but you teach faith alone saves.....is your mind reprobate ??? do you forget as you type???I think you may have knit one to many sweater....

It's not complicated.

Faith can be alone in its effective action (as Elin can be alone in knitting the sweater).
But faith is never alone because
works (obedience) are always present and related to it (as Mary is always present, related to Elin),
but are not effectively active in justification/salvation
(Ro 1:5, 3:20, 21, 28; 4:2, 5; 5:6, 8, 11, 13, 14, 15, 16, 5:1, 8, 10; Gal 2:16, 3:11; Eph 2:8-9).
Works (obedience) produced by faith are effectively active only in sanctification.

 

[newbirth]

It's not complicated.

Faith can be alone in its effective action (as Elin can be alone in knitting the sweater).
But faith is never alone because
works (obedience) are always present and related to it (as Mary is always present and related to Elin),
but are not effectively active in justification/salvation
(Ro 1:5, 3:20, 21, 28; 4:2, 5; 5:6, 8, 11, 13, 14, 15, 16, 5:1, 8, 10; Gal 2:16, 3:11; Eph 2:8-9).
Works (obedience) produced by faith are effectively active only in sanctification.

faith that is alone is dead....according to James....I don't believe you....I believe James...do you agree with James...is faith alone dead?
how long will you wrestle with the word....not effectively active = dead...you are saying dead faith can do something?
can faith that is alone and dead save you??? you are defending the word of Calvin vs the word of James....I believe the word of James to be the inspired word of God...and his words expose Calvin as a liar....You are trying to fit the word of Calvin into scripture but it is opposed to scripture....they do not agree....

 

[Elin]

faith that is alone is dead....according to James....I don't believe you....I believe James...
do you agree with James...is faith alone dead?

Yes, faith without works is dead.

But that doesn't mean those works are effectively active in justification/salvation
(Ro 1:5, 3:20, 21, 28; 4:2, 5; 5:6, 8, 11, 13, 14, 15, 16, 5:1, 8, 10; Gal 2:16, 3:11; Eph 2:8-9).
They are effectively active only in sanctification.

Works (obedience) are a proof of true faith, and by the Holy Spirit produce sanctification,
but they are not effectively active in justification/salvation.

 

[seed_time_harvest]

.
Did we miss something?

We haven't seen anyone deal with the verses
which threaten the LOSS of "eternal life".

I.E. one had it, then lost it. Dah.

Please don't keep us waiting all day and all night.
We izn't nocturnal.

We are made perfect in the spirit and sin cannot penetrate even if we sin in the flesh,but if you don't renew your mind continued sin can cause you to become insensitive to the SPIRIT little by little until you are reprobate(and in my opinion this is a process). No one in their right mind would do this but i feel if it wasn't needful for us to know this then why would GOD even put it in the bible in Hebrews 6.

At the point you become reprobate( not only do you know the difference between right and wrong you could care less about right or wrong and you have no concern for GOD.)
Those who blaspheme the SPIRIT are not forgiven.

I know that some do not agree,but in my opinion you cannot lose your salvation but you can renounce it loving this present world.

Sidenote***
Only a christian can renounce their salvation....they have to meet all those things it said in Hebrews.

Hebrews 6:1-10
king james version(kjv)

[SUP]1.)[/SUP] Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,

[SUP]
2.)[/SUP] Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.

[SUP]
3.)[/SUP] And this will we do, if God permit.

[SUP]
4.)[/SUP] For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,

[SUP]
5.)[/SUP] And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,

[SUP]
6.)[/SUP] If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

[SUP]
7.)[/SUP] For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God:

8.) But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.

[SUP]
9.)[/SUP] But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak.

[SUP]
10.)[/SUP] For God is not unrighteous to forget your work and labour of love, which ye have shewed toward his name, in that ye have ministered to the saints, and do minister.

This is my thoughts on it.

 

[newbirth]

We are made perfect in the spirit and sin cannot penetrate even if we sin in the flesh,but if you don't renew your mind continued sin can cause you to become insensitive to the SPIRIT little by little until you are reprobate(and in my opinion this is a process). No one in their right mind would do this but i feel if it wasn't needful for us to know this then why would GOD even put it in the bible in Hebrews 6.

what are you saying ...sin cannot penetrate but if you sin you become reprobate...??? bro if sin could not penetrate ......scripture would not say...
1 Corinthians 15:34
Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame.
1 John 2:1
My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:

 

[ChosenbyHim]

where is this in scripture?....what verse ?....which chapter?

There is no settled formula of an exact prayer that has to be prayed. As long as you are genuine when you come before God for salvation. In other words, God knows the heart of the person who is coming to Him for salvation. And He knows whether that person's heart is truly broken or not. God knows if that person is truly repentant and if that person seriously desires to be saved from his sins.

 

[newbirth]

I've not been able to follow you two,
butski IMO you are both missing the point:
it's all a matter of what is meant by having faith:

SAVING FAITH INCLUDES THE WORKS OF OBEDIENCE!

you have not been able to follow ....so on what basis you conclude.... we are both missing the point...
faith without works is dead.....I stick with scripture...what verse in scripture says... saving faith...your understanding should be .....faith includes the work of obedience....go back and review what I wrote and show the points I am missing...so I can consider where I went wrong....

 

[newbirth]

There is no settled formula of an exact prayer that has to be prayed. As long as you are genuine when you come before God for salvation. In other words, God knows the heart of the person who is coming to Him for salvation. And He knows whether that person's heart is truly broken or not. God knows if that person is truly repentant and if that person seriously desires to be saved from his sins.

that is why God put things in place for us to do so that we may be saved....Did Peter offer a sinners prayer to those who believed...Did Philip offer a sinners prayer or Paul and Silas?....so man have strayed from Christ's doctrine to teach the commands of men...