10 Questions about OSAS

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
25,563
13,547
113
58
#81
1 Timothy 2:15 Yet she will be saved through childbearing—if they continue in faith and love and holiness, with self-control.
We must continue in the faith to be saved. No one & done will do.
Must or will if you are truly saved in the first place and preserved by God? (Psalm 37:28; Jude 1:1) Salvation is by grace through faith, not works (Ephesians 2:8,9) and the reality is demonstrated by love, holiness, with self-control. (1 John 3:10; 4:7; Hebrews 12:14; 2 Timothy 1:7) Those who don't continue demonstrate that faith was never firmly rooted and established from the start, like the seed that fell on rocky, shallow soil and had no root.
 

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
25,563
13,547
113
58
#82
Col 1:21 And you, who once were alienated and hostile in mind, doing evil deeds, 22he has now reconciled in his body of flesh by his death, in order to present you holy and blameless and above reproach before him, 23if indeed you continue in the faith, stable and steadfast, not shifting from the hope of the gospel that you heard, which has been proclaimed in all creationg under heaven, and of which I, Paul, became a minister.
The word "IF" here in Colossians 1:23 is not ean, but ei with the indicative, having here the idea of "assuming that you continue in the faith." That is, continuance would show that the person's faith was firmly rooted and established in the hope of the gospel to begin with, and they really HAVE BEEN reconciled.

It makes sense that Paul would speak this way because he is addressing groups of people who all "profess" to be Christians without being able to infallibly know the actual state of every person's heart. How can Paul avoid giving them false assurance of salvation here when in fact some of them may not be saved? Paul knows that faith which is firmly grounded and established in the gospel from the start will continue. Those who continue in the faith demonstrate thereby that they are genuine believers.

Just as we see in 1 Corinthians 15:1,2 - Moreover, brethren, I declare to you the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received and in which you stand, by which also you are saved, if you hold fast (demonstrative evidence of faith being firmly rooted and established) that word which I preached to you--unless you believed in vain.

To believe in vain is to believe without cause or without effect, to no purpose. If as some are saying in Corinth, there is no resurrection, then faith is vain and worthless (vs. 14). The people who fail to hold fast to the word (the gospel) that Paul preached in 1 Corinthians 15:1-4, demonstrated that they "believed in vain" (did not truly believe unto salvation in the first place).
 

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
25,563
13,547
113
58
#83
Meyer's NT Commentary Romans 11:22
ἘΠΕῚ ΚΑῚ ΣῪ ἘΚΚΟΠΉΣῌ] for otherwise thou also (like those broken-off branches) shalt be cut off. The threatening tenor of the discourse suggests unsought the stronger word ἐκκοπ., which is also in Romans 11:24 retained of the wild olive tree.


We may notice that this is a probative passage for the possibility of forfeiture of the state of grace, for the conversio resistibilis and for reiterabilitas gratiae, and also against absolute predestination.
Go back and read post #60. Salvation is not probation. Grace is not forfeited, but there are those who come short, fail to obtain the grace of God. Hebrews 12:15 - See to it that no one comes short of the grace of God.. (NASB) The ESV reads - ..fails to obtain the grace of God. Not a loss of salvation here but a failure to obtain it.

The Holy Spirit is the down payment of our inheritance, UNTIL THE REDEMPTION OF THE POSSESSION.

Ephesians 1:13 - In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.

<1,728, arrabon> originally, "earnest-money" deposited by the purchaser and forfeited if the purchase was not completed, was probably a Phoenician word, introduced into Greece. In general usage it came to denote "a pledge" or "earnest" of any sort; in the NT it is used only of that which is assured by God to believers; it is said of the Holy Spirit as the Divine "pledge" of all their future blessedness, 2 Corinthians 1:22; 5:5; in Ephesians 1:14; 4:30 particularly of their eternal inheritance. (Vine's Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words)

2 Corinthians 1:21 Now it is God who makes both us and you stand firm in Christ. He anointed us, 22 set his seal of ownership on us, and put his Spirit in our hearts as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come.

2 Corinthians 5:5 - Now it is God who has made us for this very purpose and has given us the Spirit as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come.

Ephesians 4:30 - And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed unto/for the day of redemption.

In regard to predestination, in Romans 8:29, we read - For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified. *ALL of them. Notice how Paul uses the past tense for a future event to stress its certainty. :)
 

Everlasting-Grace

Well-known member
Dec 18, 2021
6,066
1,948
113
#84
Maxwell, I believe in the security of the believer also, but not as some do.
I believe as long as i want to stay with the Lord, no devil in Hell can do anything about it.
However, there is so much teaching on the believer being deceived, esp. by Paul, it confirms what Jesus said about the devil: the thief comes to steal, kill, and destroy. He doesn't give up after we're saved as if he no longer can.
The teaching on the Falling Away is about saved people who rebel from Christ. It is impossible for any sinner, faker or otherwise to fall away from God when they are already in sin. That whole teaching has to be twisted like a pretzel to accommodate OSAS.
Not to be rude. or pushy,

But in my view, this is not security. It is you trusting that you will never walk away. or that you will never fall into sin. And it puts the onus of Gods promise on you. not on him.

As for someone falling away due to sin. This has biblical evidence that they were never saved. 1 John says whoever is born of God can not live in sin, whoever lives in sin has never seen or known God. if they have never known God. how could they ever have been saved.

It is not us twisting anything, it is use basing our hope on the promise of God.. I can't save myself. thus I can not unsdave myself (if I could. I in essense have to keep myself saved, which in essence is saving myself)
 

PennEd

Senior Member
Apr 22, 2013
13,614
9,127
113
#86
The teaching on the Falling Away is about saved people who rebel from Christ. It is impossible for any sinner, faker or otherwise to fall away from God when they are already in sin. That whole teaching has to be twisted like a pretzel to accommodate OSAS.
There's no twisting. John explains it very succinctly;

1 John 2:19
New King James Version

19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us.


These people THOUGHT they were saved. They did all sorts of Churchy stuff. But they FELL AWAY. Why? Because NONE of them were ever saved to begin with! The "falling away" happens exactly with people like John describes here.

We are IN Jesus Christ, and He is IN us.

If a born again believer 'Walks away", Jesus Christ remains in that believer. The Father will discipline His Child, up to, and including physical death. But He is not going to cast His child in hell. THAT, is the lie of the devil.

We have been SEALED with the Holy Spirit unto the day we receive our new Heavenly bodies.


Ephesians 1:13

New King James Version
13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were SEALED with the Holy Spirit of promise,


The word SEALED is the same word used in Revelation 5 to describe the SEALS that NO ONE could break. Except, of course Jesus Christ!

So it is not possible to break the SEAL of the Holy Spirit, by anyone but God Himself. Certainly not by YOU.

To summarize:

1. If you are not Born Again, it doesn't matter how obedient you are. You are NOT His. And NEVER were. He NEVER knew you.

2. If you ARE Born Again, God will discipline you if you sin, and He will pursue you UNTIL He finds you if you "walk away".

3. The saved are IN Christ, and He is IN you.

4. You have been sealed with an unbreakable Seal, the Holy Spirit.

Rejoice!!!! He loves you! Now follow Him, and do good works to show your love for Him, NOT to get, OR stay saved.
 
May 1, 2022
565
156
43
#87
agree

a child of God can not be dominated with sin..
So you're telling me if you chose of your own free will to become a murderer that that couldn't happen that you would override your own free will. Not looking for an argument, I'm genuinely concerned about having Enternal Life.
 
Sep 28, 2023
948
177
43
#88
I disagree with you on this, and believe there is good evidence for a contrary view, but I also think it's the kind of thing believers should be able to discuss politely.
Kinda hard to be polite all the time when some folks are trying to get others to believe teaching that comes from the devil

God's Word foretold that in the end times deception would be the greatest danger (Math 24) and that there would be many false teachers spreading false doctrine:

Matthew 24:4,5
And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.
For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.

*Includes many claiming "I am anointed" deceiving many (false teachers)


1 Timothy 4:1,2
Now the Spirit speaks expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron

("depart from the faith" is not referring to sinners in the world who never came to faith in the first place)

1 Timothy 6:3-5 (see Luke 11:23 and 2 Peter 3:2)
If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness (holiness); (Doctrine of Christ, aka Doctrine of the Apostles)
He is proud, knowing nothing, but doting about questions and strifes of words, whereof comes envy, strife, railings, evil thoughts… Perverse disputings of men of corrupt minds, and destitute of the truth, supposing that gain is godliness: from such withdraw thyself.

2 Timothy 4:3,4
For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine (teaching); but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.

2 Peter 2:1-3
But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying (contradicting, Not agreeing with) the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.
And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of.
And through covetousness (idolatry) shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose judgment now of a long time lingers not, and their damnation slumbers not.

Jude 1:4
For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness (no self control, living after the flesh), and denying (contradicting, opposing Jesus’ teachings) the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ. (referring to false teachers and false brethren - see Matthew 13:24-30)
(Deny = Strong's G0720… to contradict, disavow, reject, deny, refuse - and Strong's G4483… the idea of pouring forth, to utter, speak of or say, command)

Jude 1:17-21
Remember the words which were spoken before of the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ;
How that they told you there should be mockers in the last time, who should walk after their own ungodly lusts.
These are those who
separate themselves, sensual, having not the Spirit.
But you, beloved, building up yourselves on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Ghost,
Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.
("those who separate themselves" is not referring to sinners in the world who were never joined unto the Lord in the first place)

Acts 20:27-30
For I have not shunned to declare unto you all the counsel of God.
Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.
For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock.
Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them.
 
Sep 28, 2023
948
177
43
#89
These people THOUGHT they were saved.
The calvinists claim that some of the "elect" are not really saved and believe none of the "elect" can know if they are saved or not unless they go to Heaven.

Lots of parallelizes between calvinism and islam and catholicism as they all believe one cannot know for sure if they are saved or not during this life.
 

PennEd

Senior Member
Apr 22, 2013
13,614
9,127
113
#90
Kinda hard to be polite all the time when some folks are trying to get others to believe teaching that comes from the devil
:rolleyes:
God's Word foretold that in the end times deception would be the greatest danger (Math 24) and that there would be many false teachers spreading false doctrine:
Ya got THAT part right!

Boy, you have been working extra hard honing your massive skill in pointing out the sin and supposed false doctrines of others!
 

PennEd

Senior Member
Apr 22, 2013
13,614
9,127
113
#91
The calvinists claim that some of the "elect" are not really saved and believe none of the "elect" can know if they are saved or not unless they go to Heaven.
Is that right.
What that has to do with the price of eggs in istanbul is beyond me though.
Lots of parallelizes between calvinism and islam and catholicism as they all believe one cannot know for sure if they are saved or not during this life.
Well.... I guess it's a dern good thing those of us who believe that Jesus keeps us saved are Christians then!

What are you?
 

Cameron143

Well-known member
Mar 1, 2022
20,064
6,876
113
62
#92
Kinda hard to be polite all the time when some folks are trying to get others to believe teaching that comes from the devil

God's Word foretold that in the end times deception would be the greatest danger (Math 24) and that there would be many false teachers spreading false doctrine:

Matthew 24:4,5
And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.
For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.

*Includes many claiming "I am anointed" deceiving many (false teachers)


1 Timothy 4:1,2
Now the Spirit speaks expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron

("depart from the faith" is not referring to sinners in the world who never came to faith in the first place)

1 Timothy 6:3-5 (see Luke 11:23 and 2 Peter 3:2)
If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness (holiness); (Doctrine of Christ, aka Doctrine of the Apostles)
He is proud, knowing nothing, but doting about questions and strifes of words, whereof comes envy, strife, railings, evil thoughts… Perverse disputings of men of corrupt minds, and destitute of the truth, supposing that gain is godliness: from such withdraw thyself.

2 Timothy 4:3,4
For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine (teaching); but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.

2 Peter 2:1-3
But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying (contradicting, Not agreeing with) the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.
And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of.
And through covetousness (idolatry) shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose judgment now of a long time lingers not, and their damnation slumbers not.

Jude 1:4
For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness (no self control, living after the flesh), and denying (contradicting, opposing Jesus’ teachings) the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ. (referring to false teachers and false brethren - see Matthew 13:24-30)
(Deny = Strong's G0720… to contradict, disavow, reject, deny, refuse - and Strong's G4483… the idea of pouring forth, to utter, speak of or say, command)

Jude 1:17-21
Remember the words which were spoken before of the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ;
How that they told you there should be mockers in the last time, who should walk after their own ungodly lusts.
These are those who
separate themselves, sensual, having not the Spirit.
But you, beloved, building up yourselves on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Ghost,
Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.
("those who separate themselves" is not referring to sinners in the world who were never joined unto the Lord in the first place)

Acts 20:27-30
For I have not shunned to declare unto you all the counsel of God.
Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.
For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock.
Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them.
You find it difficult to love your neighbor...noted.
 
Sep 28, 2023
948
177
43
#93
The word SEALED is the same word used in Revelation 5 to describe the SEALS that NO ONE could break. Except, of course Jesus Christ!
The same word SEAL is used in Mat 27:66 which is not the kind of seal that cannot be broken

Mat 27:66
And they went and made the grave secure, and along with the guard they set a seal on the stone.


God put his signet or private mark or claim upon us . . .but when we consider the whole counsel of God where He warns that those who fall away will be lost if they don't confess and forsake their sins and get back in right standing with the Lord...

It's obvious from scripture that when the Lord made man in His Own Image that man does in fact have free will and God does not violate that free will... since He's the One Who gave free will to man!

Of course the OSAS peoples don't accept the whole counsel of God because man y things the Lord says in His Word proves it's entirely possible for one to get born again and then fall away from the Lord and not go to Heaven.

Having chosen to NOT accept all that Lord says... sadly the OSAS peoples lack understanding and revelation in these matters
 

Everlasting-Grace

Well-known member
Dec 18, 2021
6,066
1,948
113
#95
So you're telling me if you chose of your own free will to become a murderer that that couldn't happen that you would override your own free will. Not looking for an argument, I'm genuinely concerned about having Enternal Life.
Living in sin is living in sin, it is being dominated with sin, It is our life,

If I get mad and kill someone, like Moses did in Genesis, or as David did to Bathsheba's Husband, or as Paul did to many christians. I have committed a sin. This is no different than me lieing, commiting adultry, Dishonoring my parents, or breaking any of the ten commands.. It is not being dominated by sin, nor is it living in sin.
I know it is hard for the flesh to recieve this, But it is in fact true.

A child of God can not live in sin.

1 John 3 concerning habitual or practicing sin

4 Whoever commits sin also commits lawlessness, and sin is lawlessness. 5 And you know that He was manifested to take away our sins, and in Him there is no sin. 6 Whoever abides in Him does not sin. Whoever sins has neither seen Him nor known Him.
7 Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous. 8 He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil. 9 Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.

I can sin, in fact I will sin. I may not commit murder. but I also am not going to think because I did nto commit murder I am ok. I may commit murder, we do not know how we will react under certain circumstances..

But I will not live or practice a sinful lifestyle. thats impossible. because I have been born of God. Thats not me saying so. The ap[ostle John did and he was inspired by God to write it
 

Cameron143

Well-known member
Mar 1, 2022
20,064
6,876
113
62
#96
The calvinists claim that some of the "elect" are not really saved and believe none of the "elect" can know if they are saved or not unless they go to Heaven.

Lots of parallelizes between calvinism and islam and catholicism as they all believe one cannot know for sure if they are saved or not during this life.
Because I know you are a stickler for truth, it might prove beneficial to point out error. No Calvinist believe "elect" are not saved. Error. Also, none of the tenets of Calvinism concern themselves directly with the realization of eternal security, only that it is true. Error.
 
May 1, 2022
565
156
43
#97
Living in sin is living in sin, it is being dominated with sin, It is our life,

If I get mad and kill someone, like Moses did in Genesis, or as David did to Bathsheba's Husband, or as Paul did to many christians. I have committed a sin. This is no different than me lieing, commiting adultry, Dishonoring my parents, or breaking any of the ten commands.. It is not being dominated by sin, nor is it living in sin.
I know it is hard for the flesh to recieve this, But it is in fact true.

A child of God can not live in sin.

1 John 3 concerning habitual or practicing sin

4 Whoever commits sin also commits lawlessness, and sin is lawlessness. 5 And you know that He was manifested to take away our sins, and in Him there is no sin. 6 Whoever abides in Him does not sin. Whoever sins has neither seen Him nor known Him.
7 Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous. 8 He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil. 9 Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.

I can sin, in fact I will sin. I may not commit murder. but I also am not going to think because I did nto commit murder I am ok. I may commit murder, we do not know how we will react under certain circumstances..

But I will not live or practice a sinful lifestyle. thats impossible. because I have been born of God. Thats not me saying so. The ap[ostle John did and he was inspired by God to write it
I'll say one thing about the subject, that is to ascribe to OSAS is negating man's freewill, which God would never do.
 

Mem

Senior Member
Sep 23, 2014
7,227
2,206
113
#98
I'm pretty sure it's impossible to jimmy the Door, if He shuts no one can open.
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
26,074
13,778
113
#99
Also, none of the tenets of Calvinism concern themselves directly with the realization of eternal security, only that it is true.
Have you read the Westminster Confession of Faith?