Legalism doesn't help

[sealchan]

A direct relationship with God and a study of the Word...only God knows if each of us is righteous. Jesus, on the one hand, says to obey the Law and on the other He indicates that the Law is written in our hearts and so is subject to our sincere feeling discernment (let he who has not sinned...). The answer to this dilemma, this contradiction, is that we must explore both ways of knowing God simultaneously and try our best to apply ourselves to what each may teach. Our own inner relationship to God and the written Word may seem like two different voices, but we, in our imperfection, must continue to try to hear the one truth behind them both.

In my view, the whole "One Way" attitude is the devil's way of making a lost Christian think that God is sufficiently comprehendible through one way of knowing. The "His way or the highway" attitude on the part of some Christians suggests that there is one rational way of knowing our God who is above and beyond our human rationality. I believe that we must hold up the mirror of the Word and its Rules in one hand and search our heart and pray with the other (so to speak). Sometimes these two methods will be at odds with each other. But by not pursuing both we will be led into blindness; either an arrogant, vain judgmental view of ourselves and others via God's Word, or to a self-serving, undisciplined, too convenient self-satisfaction on the other.

 

[Hizikyah]

Yahshua (Jesus) says:

Yahchanan (John) 5:28-30, “Do not be astonished at this-for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice, and will come forth. Those who have practiced righteousness will be resurrected in order to live; and those who have practiced wickedness will be resurrected in order to be damned."

Mattithyah 16:27, “For the Son of Man will come in the glory of His Father with His Malakim; and then He will reward every man according to his works.”

Paul says:

1 Corinthians 4:4-5, "For I know nothing by myself; yet by this I am not justified, for He Who judges me is Yahweh! Therefore, judge nothing before the time. Wait until Yahshua comes, Who will bring to light the things hidden in darkness, and will reveal the secret intentions of men's hearts; and then each man will receive praise from Yahweh."

2 Corinthians 5:10, “For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Messiah, that each one may receive his reward according to what he has done in the body, whether righteous or evil.”

Please dont bring any venom my way that is Scripture....

 

[Elijah19]

I would say the first of these fiends were the original Pharisees and Sadducees of the Bible. No, even before them there were people to whom God condemned for putting the laws of man over the laws of God.

That, essentially, is my point in full. Legalists are anyone and everyone who puts mans traditions over God's laws.

A scriptural example of this would be found in Matthew 23:16-24 or Isaiah 1:12-17.

Note that I am not trying to point fingers on here. I am not calling anyone a dangerous legalist. I am simply warning against the sin of legalism.

 

[Elijah19]

All of these words are true to the letter because it's scripture. No venom intended. All that I mean when I warn against Legalism is that human righteousness, devoid of God and his grace and love, is useless. And having pride in it can lead to a fall. That is the definition of Legalism. Again, I'm not calling anyone on here a legalist either. I'm simply warning against the spiritual danger of the sin.

 

[john832]

Yes, the righteousness that saves is the gift of righteousness (Ro 5:17) from God (Ro 1:17, 3:21).

Righteousness does not save...

Rom 5:9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.
Rom 5:10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

This is a basic foundational scripture that shows that justification is by His shed blood. We are justified, not by any act of our own but by Christ's blood shed in our stead (Heb 9:12,14).

We are al reconciled to the Father by His death in our place.

And we are saved by His life, by His resurrection whereby He lives to intercede for us and then grant us eternal life...

Rom 5:21 That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.

 

[john832]

So righteousness is from God (Ro 1:17, 3:21) and righteousness is a gift (Ro 5:17),
but God doesn't give the gift of righteousness.

You're not making sense.


That's not how it worked with Abraham (Ge 15:6).

That's now what Paul says (Ro 4:5, 13).

The NKJV is interesting here...

Rev 19:8 And to her it was granted to be arrayed in fine linen, clean and bright, for the fine linen is the righteous acts of the saints.

 

[john832]

A direct relationship with God and a study of the Word...only God knows if each of us is righteous.

This one statement is a very good understanding of Rom 14.

 

[john832]

That, essentially, is my point in full. Legalists are anyone and everyone who puts mans traditions over God's laws.

This statement is one of the most cogent statements ANYONE has ever made on this board! It ought to be printed at the top of every page in bold, red letters.

 

[Elin]

Doing righteous acts does not save, salvation is a gift.

Agreed.

The righteousness that saves is the gift of
righteousness (Ro 5:17) from God (Ro 1:17, 3:21; 5:17).

Righteousness does not save...

The righteousness (justification) which is by grace through faith (Ro 5:17)
in his propitiation (Ro 3:22-25) saves (1Co 1:21; Ro 10:9, 13; Eph 2:5, 8-9).

Rom 5:9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.
Rom 5:10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

Yes, by his life now (Heb 7:25; Ro 8:34, 27) of applying all the saving benefits which sanctify us.

This is a basic foundational scripture that shows that justification is
by His shed blood. We are justified, not by any act of our own but by Christ's blood shed in our stead (Heb 9:12,14).

Justification is acquittal of guilt, declared in right-wise standing before God,
position of righteousness.

Righteousness (justification) comes by faith (Ro 4:13, 5:1) in Christ's blood of propitiation
(Ro 3:22-25, 28, 4:5, 16, 5:9), which faith saves (1Co 1:21; Ro 10:9, 13; Eph 2:5, 8-9).

We are al reconciled to the Father by His death in our place.

Those who believe are reconciled to the Father (justification, right-wise standing) by faith in his shed blood (Ro 3:22-25, 4:5, 13, 16, 5:1), which faith saves (Eph 2:5, 8-9).

And we are saved by His life, by His resurrection whereby He lives to intercede for us and then grant us eternal life...[/quote]
He lives to intercede for those to whom he has already granted eternal life
by grace through faith, which is salvation (Eph 2:8-9).
His intercedes to apply the benefits of sanctification which he has purchased by his blood.

Rom 5:21 That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.

Yes, through the free righteousness/justification of faith by his grace (Ro 3:24).

 

[SeaBass]

God's righteousness is a gift (Ro 5:17, 1:17, 3:21) to us.

Yes, it is a gift that men are made righteous Rom 5:19, but men are not made righteous unconditionally but must submit/obey/work God's righteousness to be made righteous, Rom 10:3; Acts 10:35.

 

[SeaBass]

So righteousness is from God (Ro 1:17, 3:21) and righteousness is a gift (Ro 5:17),
but God doesn't give the gift of righteousness.

You're not making sense.


That's not how it worked with Abraham (Ge 15:6).

That's now what Paul says (Ro 4:5, 13).

Abraham obeyed God's commands...did God's righteousness, Heb 11:8,17.

No man is made righteous without doing GOD'S righteousness.

Paul said "obedience unto righteousness" Rom 6:16.

1 Jn 3:10 he that continues to NOT do righteousness continues to NOT be of God.

 

[Elin]

Psa 119:172 ".... for all thy commandments are righteousness."

God's righteousness are His commands

God's righteousness is

1) his character,
2) justification, his declaration of acquittal, not guilty, in right-wise standing before him, a position of righteousness.

and in Rom 10:3 those Jews were lost for not submitting/obeying/doing God's commands.

Nope, they sought to establish their own righteousness by works of the law, and did not submit to
the righteousness that comes from God by faith (Ro 4:13).

 

[Elin]

The NKJV is interesting here...

Rev 19:8 And to her it was granted to be arrayed in fine linen, clean and bright, for the
fine linen is the righteous acts of the saints.

Yes, those who, through faith, are declared righteous (Ro 5:17), given right standing before God,
do practice the obedience of faith, which are righteous acts.

But these righteous acts are not the cause of their salvation, rather they are the result of it.

And there are no righteous acts of the unregenerate (Ro 8:7-8) because their mind is set on sin.

 

[john832]

Yes, those who, through faith, are declared righteous (Ro 5:17), given right standing before God,
do practice the obedience of faith, which are righteous acts.

But these righteous acts are not the cause of their salvation, rather they are the result of it.

And there are no righteous acts of the unregenerate (Ro 8:7-8) because their mind is set on sin.

I have NEVER said that righteous acts produce salvation. If I have ever said that we can be saved by works, please point it out and I will publicly acknowledge as error.

 

[Elin]

Yes, it is a gift that men are made righteous Rom 5:19, but men are not made righteous unconditionally but must submit/obey/work God's righteousness to be made righteous, Rom 10:3; Acts 10:35.

God's gift of righteousness is an acquittal of guilt, a declaration of right-wise standing before him,
a position of guiltlessness, and is conditioned on faith only.

But then the redeemed always engage in the process of sanctification through the obedience of faith,
which is practical righteousness, without which no one will see the Lord, for they have demonstrated
they are not the redeemed.

 

[SeaBass]

God's righteousness is

1) his character,
2) justification, his declaration of acquittal, not guilty, in right-wise standing before him, a position of righteousness.

Nope, they sought to establish their own righteousness by works of the law, and did not submit to
the righteousness that comes from God by faith (Ro 4:13).

Psa 119:172 "..all thy commandments are righteous" that means obeying God's commands is doing/submitting to God's righteousness (Rom 10:3) and one cannot be of God until he does God's righteousness (commandments) 1 Jn 3:10.

Those Jews in Rom 10:3 were for they were doing their OWN righteousness and had not submitted/obeyed GOD'S righteousness.


Rom 4:13 "For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith."

The promises given to Abraham were given not given through the OT law of Moses and the flawless law-keeping that OT law required but was given to Abraham for he had an obedient, righteous doing faith, that is, the promises were given through the right doing of Abrahams' faith (righteousness of faith)

 

[Elin]

So righteousness is from God (Ro 1:17, 3:21) and righteousness is a gift (Ro 5:17),
but God doesn't give the gift of righteousness.

You're not making sense.

That's not how it worked with Abraham (Ge 15:6).

That's now what Paul says (Ro 4:5, 13).

Abraham obeyed God's commands...did God's righteousness, Heb 11:8,17.

No man is made righteous without doing GOD'S righteousness.

Paul said "obedience unto righteousness" Rom 6:16.

1 Jn 3:10 he that continues to NOT do righteousness continues to NOT be of God.

You did not address Ge 15:6 or Ro 4:5, 13.

 

[Elin]

I have NEVER said that righteous acts produce salvation. If I have ever said that we can be saved by works, please point it out and I will publicly acknowledge as error.

Sorry, I was not implying that you had.

 

[SeaBass]

God's gift of righteousness is an acquittal of guilt, a declaration of right-wise standing before him,
a position of guiltlessness, and is conditioned on faith only.

But then the redeemed always engage in the process of sanctification through the obedience of faith,
which is practical righteousness, without which no one will see the Lord, for they have demonstrated
they are not the redeemed.

I agree that being justified is acquittal of guilt. It does not mean one was never guilty of wrong doing but that his wrong doing is not held against him.


No verse says being justified is based on "faith only", that is your theological bias.

James 2; Abraham was justified at the point of his obedient work in offering Issac, Rahab justified by her obedient works also for no man is justified by faith only.

 

[SeaBass]

You did not address Ge 15:6 or Ro 4:5, 13.

Neither passage says Abraham was reckoned righteous by faith only and he was justified at the point of offering Issac as James points out.

BEFORE Gen 15:6 there is Genesis chapters 12-14 where Abraham obeyed by leaving his house land and kindred to go to a land God would show Him, where Abraham obeyed by building altars to worship God. So there can be no 'faith only' in Gen 15:6 or Rom 4:5.